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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop: Weapons, Mastery Ranks, and Stats!

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On 2/5/2018 at 4:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Not noted here are BEAM weapons - they should be ready soon, but we are revisiting them to be more 'like they used to be' in terms of damage instances over time but with a fixed fire rate. Fire Rate mods and their effects are still being determined.

Last I checked, ignis was a beam weapon of sorts, so please take some time to chill....about the flamethrower. I'll show myself out.

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1 hour ago, xV3NOMx said:

Fixing the old content is not important since veteran players, like myself, have already optimized our weapons to be effective in battle and does not need to be nerfed for other's preferences. 

[The Devs already nerfed weapons that were highly combat efficient, such as Telos Boltace, Synoid Simulor and Tonker.]

Most of the changes in this list are buffs, how is that a bad thing, I am a Veteran player and I can tell you that most of these weapon changes are great because it means there are more viable weapons for me to Forma and build into death cannons. Some of the changes are nerfs yes, but they are few and far between, if this change goes through as it is, I would be pretty happy with it, I would be even more happy if some things were rethought before this change happens though.

Telos Boltace was not strictly nerfed, I actually prefer it in it's current form, being able to pull enemies in then Slide Attack through them all with Maiming Strike and see loads of red numbers, and send anything I don't kill flying into the ether is very satisfying, and can kill some a lot of high level enemies easily.

Synoid Simulor wasn't strictly nerfed either, it can now take advantage of Multishot which does a good job of covering any loss in power it received. It needs to be used in a different way yes but it is still powerful and still widely used.

Fixing old content is absolutely important, have you seen the amount of systems/features that the community complain about all the time, features like enemy scaling, the damage system, Warframes that are barely used such as Atlas, Hydroid and Oberon, broken Exterminate missions, the new player experience, Prime Vault Unlocks, these are all things that have been around for quite some time and things that benefit both old and new players (other than the new player experience which mostly just benefits new players). There's more to Warframe than just having the most optimized and powerful weapons/builds as possible.

1 hour ago, exturkconner said:

You grasp that in a game of this type the most important thing isn't pleasing old time players right? Veterans don't spend plat. The goal is to get new players who find the game play interesting enough but frustrating enough to spend plat. That's how the game can live on in the long term.

I do not agree with this at all. Again as a Veteran player, I still spend Plat on Cosmetics (Or buy Tenno Workshop Skins) because fashion frame is the true end game and I like to support DE, I bet I am not the only Veteran who feels this way. The goal isn't strictly to get new players into the game then keep them there and have them buy things out of frustration. I bet DE wants to get new players into the game, and as a business they do ultimately want to make money. This doesn't mean it has to be due to frustration, Warframe has had problems with the new player experience yes but that DE have taken steps to mitigate that. I bet you the big reason DE wants people to spend money on the game is to support them because they like the company, and the game, generally that means cosmetics, or Prime Access. Making money is good, keeping people while making money is better.

1 hour ago, exturkconner said:

Just having higher damage potential doesn't mean a weapon will do more damage in practice.

This is a thing I see a lot where people will test weapons/builds in a controlled environment then use that as data for how good something is. In my experience, testing them in missions is a far better indication of a weapons power because the environment is so much more chaotic and more can go wrong. Pretty much everything I ever test in the similcrum is worse in practice, how much worse depends on how flexible the thing I'm testing is. Always take things like Warframe builder and Similcrum testing with a grain of salt, on paper and in practice are two different things and there can be complications in a mission that you don't have to deal with elsewhere.

Edited by I-Am-MoMoJoJo
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1 hour ago, exturkconner said:

The problem with this calculation is your average damage number. Whats it based on? Is it based on running both weapons in simulation several times while aiming for the head and just holding down the trigger? Is it done with bursts? Is it done with body shots?Is it just you picking random numbers? Cause as I've pointed out the prisma will tend to get you more headshots than the regular grakata.  Just having higher damage potential doesn't mean a weapon will do more damage in practice.

These are things that were taken into DE's calculations they mentioned it. The reason why Grakata has higher damage and cd is because of it's extreme inaccuracy. It's a balancing point to bring it into line with the other weapons of similar mr. 

The average damage calculation is the average damage you will do per shot with a serration, point strike, and vital sense equipped.

The prisma grakata for example:

Base stats: 15 damage, 0.25 crit chance, 2.5 crit multiplier

Modded stats: 39.75 damage (D), 0.625 crit chance(CC), 5.5 crit multiplier(CD)

To calculate average damage you have to weigh the non-crit damage number and the crit damage number according to the probability to get a critical hit, aka crit chance.

Average damage = (D * (1-CC)) + ((D*CD) * (CC)) = (39.75 * (1 - 0.625)) + ((39.75*5.5) * (0.625)) = 151.55 damage per shot

I guess yes then, it is calculated with body shots because I didn't use any body multipliers. The problem with body multipliers (headshots in this case) is the % of time you will hit the head of a target varies on the person, the target, and the gun. So unless you do sufficient testing you can't just pull out a number and say "I'll hit the head 66% of the time with one and 33% of the time with the other". That's why I didn't weigh either one more for headshots.

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Just now, Combustionsquirrel said:

The average damage calculation is the average damage you will do per shot with a serration, point strike, and vital sense equipped.

The prisma grakata for example:

Base stats: 15 damage, 0.25 crit chance, 2.5 crit multiplier

Modded stats: 39.75 damage (D), 0.625 crit chance(CC), 5.5 crit multiplier(CD)

To calculate average damage you have to weigh the non-crit damage number and the crit damage number according to the probability to get a critical hit, aka crit chance.

Average damage = (D * (1-CC)) + ((D*CD) * (CC)) = (39.75 * (1 - 0.625)) + ((39.75*5.5) * (0.625)) = 151.55 damage per shot

I guess yes then, it is calculated with body shots because I didn't use any body multipliers. The problem with body multipliers (headshots in this case) is the % of time you will hit the head of a target varies on the person, the target, and the gun. So unless you do sufficient testing you can't just pull out a number and say "I'll hit the head 66% of the time with one and 33% of the time with the other". That's why I didn't weigh either one more for headshots.

That is not a very good way to go about it for numerous reasons.

Spreadsheets are just about damage potential and cannot take into account numerous things that matter. I mean they are grakata's assuming you are going to hit 100% of your shots is goofy. It's not going to happen. Period.

Should try them out a bit. You'll see the differences for yourself. And I think you'll find as I've stated the Prisma will outperform the regular by a good bit in actual practice.

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Now we have to buy more riven mod slots, after the buff is still waiting for dmg 2.5 arww have yesterday build a Akmagnus and forma that 7 times after that is the weapon pretty trashy.

So many buff's here, and how everytime , Throw away the trash riven after patch the weapon are so much stronger. Yesterday throw away my Tiberion Riven and now he get buff'd 😢

 

And why u put in the weapons the POE Recources ? Have Billions of the another stuff and cant lose it and waste my time in POE Loadingscreen. Why we can do the Bountys in POE without go in Cetus. I Think this is way better than stay over 5 mins in the Loadingscreen . Konzu can stay in the Entering Poe side.

Can we get a Recource Converter ? 

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Any chance we can get a buff to the Twin Gremlins critical multiplier? it's getting a crit chance buff to 15% but 1.5x is still really low for a multi

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Am 5.2.2018 um 23:22 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Well, we are revisiting all weapons and adjusting their stats to fit into some Mastery Rank grouping guidelines based on DPS and Crit/Status split total.

Thats all nice, but what about upgrading weapons to a higher MR? Categories like Bows and Snipers have only a few Weapons and Bows seem to have nothing in the 13-15 category. Even with the changes only a few come out on top because most low and mid tier weapons still have statts that bad you cant realy build anything out of them. What is if i like the Braton Prime for example, why cant i make an upgrade to get it all the way up to the 13-15 category and improve its statts? Or being able to shift some of its statts? Since you now have a system to calculate this, it shouldnt be that hard to do it. And with the modding system still not changed for years there is still only a choice between status and crit with some weapon types being clearly favorable to one of these.

 

Also why we are on it, have you thought about getting rid of ammo all together? It doesnt look like you factured in that some weapons require vastly more ammo than others and that encounters like the eidolons dont drop any ammo at all.

 

Also have you factured in that some boss encounters are immune to status and thus status is on a downside in parts of the game, limiting the weapon choice furthermore?

Edited by Xebov

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Might there be some reconsideration for the 80 point damage decrease on the daikyu? While I appreciate the new total damage number being aesthetically pleasing, it'll hurt its' damage base scaling rather harshly through (which it's supposedly designed for) procs or crits  - if possible a slight nudge in it's critical multiplier to 2.2x - 2.5x would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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I'm loving the changes DE, but I do have to admit that some weapons aren't strong enough even after these buffs.

Seer is easily outclassed by other weapons, like the Lex and Sicarus, which you can get far easier without a serious Boss grind. I'd make it 15% Crit and Status, with a 1.8x Multiplier, to help it better compete with other weapons in the same MR category, making it a more balanced choice early on. Hopefully we can see a really strong Prisma Seer in the future too, eh, eh?

The Kraken still needs its old sound back.

The Karak series Critical Multipliers just aren't high enough for the low Base Damage they're packing. I'd bump them up to 2.5x at minimum.

The Dera needs to lose that additional recoil due to the weapons gimmick being no recoil.

The Ogris needs a slight Status Buff, about 5%, to easily reach 100% Status. Otherwise, it just requires too many Mods to be worthwhile.

The Drakgoon needs 30% Status at minimum, to help it get an actually useable stat along with great Base Damage. Otherwise it's relying on shoddy Status and Crits, when it already has the charge, reload time and small magazine size as a drawback.

The Sanction Tigris and regular Tigris need 30% Status at minimum, otherwise they can't actually reach 100% Status.

The Viper Series needs about 10 more Base Damage all around, otherwise, it just takes too many bullets to kill a single enemy.

The Acrid could use 25 more Base Damage to help it deal with tougher enemies.

The Buzlok needs the delay between firing the Beacon and shooting the gun to be abysmal.

The Sobek should receive a fire rate increase as well.

The Burston Prime needs a higher Crit Multiplier. It's simply too weak for it's MR class, especially when compared to the Tiberon. 2x should be the minimum.

The Arca Plasmor needs its nerfs reverted. The weapons subpar Crit Multiplier already balances the damage out.

... and that's about it. Thanks for reading.

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@trndr i know it's one of my most used weapons
but as i've been talking to lot of ppl they wasn't even interested in getting the vandal version for these only
for me it's great but for other lot of ppl it's not that much of a defference

 

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Why is the Prisma Grakata worse than the normal Grakata now :( 

Shouldnt the Prisma Grakata have the same stats as the normal Grakata but with the normal extra benefits of prisma weapons

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Wow... This is dumb... Now almost every endgame build will be CRIT BUILD... And yes... It's not like right now we have a big difference in builds. But i loved seeing people build for status, or just for raw damage. And change to Daikyu... WHY?! That was such a fun bow for huge gas damage, but 80 damage decrease will hit it's performance...

 Thanks for buffs to a weak weapons, but why didn't you nerf weapons like AkLex prime? Or AkStilleto prime? BECAUSE THEY ARE META. And this is so anoying seeing how people call themselves PRO at the grindy game, while they are using most braindead guns in the game...

 Well... I was playing solo most of the time anyway. But anyway thanks for the balance patches, at least people would start to change their arsenal for a few weeks until they gonna get back to their old guns.

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3 minutes ago, FlyingPotato said:

Wow... This is dumb... Now almost every endgame build will be CRIT BUILD... And yes... It's not like right now we have a big difference in builds. But i loved seeing people build for status, or just for raw damage. And change to Daikyu... WHY?! That was such a fun bow for huge gas damage, but 80 damage decrease will hit it's performance...

 Thanks for buffs to a weak weapons, but why didn't you nerf weapons like AkLex prime? Or AkStilleto prime? BECAUSE THEY ARE META. And this is so anoying seeing how people call themselves PRO at the grindy game, while they are using most braindead guns in the game...

 Well... I was playing solo most of the time anyway. But anyway thanks for the balance patches, at least people would start to change their arsenal for a few weeks until they gonna get back to their old guns.

For Primaries the current end game builds are Crit builds, Hunter Munitions has seen to this, there are only a few Status builds that are considered end game for primaries, this patch does nothing to change that. The balance seems to shift every here and there between Crit and Status builds, before Hunter Munitions, pretty much every end game build was a Status build (Especially before Viral was nerfed). I would like there to be an even split but that is incredibly hard to balance, especially with the changes to the DMG system whenever we get those (As they will more than likely have a huge effect on Status builds). As for Raw DMG, that was only ever useful around the time the game initially went Open Beta (and even then rainbow builds reigned supreme) with things like Boltor Prime (Which until this update was basically useless since then).

 

Gas damage builds involve a DMG multiplier bug to make them strong, so I wouldn't rely to heavily on something like that. That 80 DMG nerf while probably not deserved, is more than made up for with nearly half the Charge Time and 1.5X the Crit Chance, heck even flattening out the DMG curve is good because it means more Slash DMG.

 

Here is the thing about AkLex Prime, AkStilleto Prime, and in fact every single Secondary Weapon, currently they are far weaker than any meta Primary or Secondary weapon, the best uses for Secondaries at the moment are Status, CC, or support because they lack the DPS of a Primary Weapon.

 

I haven't seen anyone call themselves a pro, merely Veterans, aka people who have been playing for a long time. Playtime means experience, not skill, and generally veterans have played long enough to have access to these powerful weapons. Some of the most powerful weapons are also far from braindead, try being effective with a Lanka with max zoom to get the most DMG and consistently headshot enemies, it can be very powerful but is by no means easy, and that's just 1 example (Also I would like to go on record as saying I use some weapons purely because I find them fun despite being good or not, things like Obex, Ignis, and heck even a Tysis with a Riven Mod that severely slows bullet travel time, that thing was terrible, but stealth killing an enemy 30 seconds after firing was interesting). So please, try to use a little more respect and common sense before just generalizing a group of people like that, thank you.

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1 minute ago, I-Am-MoMoJoJo said:

Gas damage builds involve a DMG multiplier bug to make them strong, so I wouldn't rely to heavily on something like that. That 80 DMG nerf while probably not deserved, is more than made up for with nearly half the Charge Time and 1.5X the Crit Chance, heck even flattening out the DMG curve is good because it means more Slash DMG.

I'm quite sure the crit multi getting added to each stage of gas procs, got fixed months ago.

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1 minute ago, trndr said:

I'm quite sure the crit multi getting added to each stage of gas procs, got fixed months ago.

To be honest I nvr rly payed attention to it (Which is why I tried to keep my wording past/pre tens ambiguous). If that's the case then I have no idea why Gas builds would even be considered good on a single shot, slow firing weapon when Viral or Corrosive would be far better DMG wise (Maybe it was just fun making big gas clouds:cool:). In any case I think my points on the original comment are still valid :).

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56 minutes ago, FlyingPotato said:

Thanks for buffs to a weak weapons, but why didn't you nerf weapons like AkLex prime? Or AkStilleto prime? BECAUSE THEY ARE META. And this is so anoying seeing how people call themselves PRO at the grindy game, while they are using most braindead guns in the game...

At least they pushed the Lex Prime and Akstiletto Prime to MR 8 and 10, respectively, which means none of those filthy low-MR scrubs will be able to use them early on -- thank god DE is making sure new players can't enjoy powerful things the way we did, am I right?

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I am curious why the Prisma Grakata who has a higher MR for some reason has lower base damage and crit multiplier now compared to the regular version. I appreciate the boost in damage and slight status buff, but I don't understand why DE decided to make the Prisma version less significant to its base version when compared to the original stats. I know the Prisma highly benefits with the larger magazine so there is more daka and damage, but why is it now a lower crit multiplier than the base when that was a huge boost on top of the magazine and fire rate increase before the update.

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Gee - Thanks now I'm gonna have to buy some more formas with all the buffs on the fun guns

For now my fav fun gun is Supra Vandal - Not a heavy hitter but extremely fun after 5 formas. It will carry you very far into the game and very close to an end game gun, but with the crit chance buff it will be interesting to see the results.

Time to revisit Grakatas again - Use to be my fav guns in the game

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I think the Boltor Prime for being MR 14 should have 25% for crit chance and status instead of the current. Also for a slight very minor quality of life just have the reload be a flat 2.0 instead of 2.4

My only reason for this is there are many weapons with lower MR that make even the current buffed Boltor Prime look mediocre. Soma Prime, Tenora, Grakata, Prisma Grakata, even Telos Boltor with its higher crit chance/multiplier and magazine could out damage it. 

If higher MR is suppose to mostly equate to higher tier weapons then shouldn't Boltor Prime be more than it is currently? That question goes for all MR weapons above 12.

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Sad to see Harpak being diversified from Puncture damage. Can we maybe trade this change for faster flight speed?

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10 hours ago, exturkconner said:

If I had to fathom a guess it would be to make it match with akbolto prime. 

That make sense because to be honest Boltor prime kinda sucked but like I said I haven't seen any game breaking builds

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On 2/5/2018 at 4:46 PM, Giantconch said:

Pandero, it seems like just a small nerf but is this nerf really necessary? I do see it from time to time in missions but it was hardly OP or overused to the point where people would ignore ther secondaries in favor of it.

I main the Pandero and I can tear apart most things in LATE game with it in very few hits. The tweaks will make using it interesting but I see it as more of a buff.

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Can Seer get a small mechanic added to the, currently pure visual, explosion of Projectile?

Maybe like 5 Void Damage (Fitting the Orokin-hybrid) or perhaps Guaranteed Knock back/AoE knockdown?

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I'm not sure about the changes to the Drakgoon. Unless the listed projectile speed buff is a full 100% to compensate for the halved projectile lifetime, it really hurts the fun of having a crazy ricochet flak cannon.

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