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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop: Weapons, Mastery Ranks, and Stats!

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23 minutes ago, Manowars said:

They removed what made it a unique and interesting weapon and now just made it a worse paris. It wasn't even competing with paris before since its role was so vastly different now its basically the same.

 

Edit: also the damage spread is horid, cant focus on one so you need more mods to get the same effect.

They did this with Sniper Rifles too. They dialed down the aspects that made them stand out because they couldn't think of ways to make those aspects be valuable, rather than figuring out some gameplay solution.

They just flattened the designs and took out some depth instead.

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2 hours ago, Manowars said:

They removed what made it a unique and interesting weapon and now just made it a worse paris. It wasn't even competing with paris before since its role was so vastly different now its basically the same.

 

Edit: also the damage spread is horid, cant focus on one so you need more mods to get the same effect.

Horrid because? Puncture is an awful status type, it does nothing for helping you kill something. Slash is the best when it procs, and now it has an increased chance to proc slash. And impact has the highest hitting damage, especially on unarmored targets. Having more puncture never did anything for the bow, it doesn't need to decide on one status or the other. The spread is only secondary to the draw time now, its nearly twice as fast, which increases the damage output by quite a bit. Its still a buff.

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On 2018. 02. 05. at 11:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Some weapon crafting costs will be revisited, and PoE resources will be used if it makes sense to better integrate a mix of resources into the game.

I almost had my hopes up.

I feel like sometimes DE doesn't understands it's own game. They just want to put "cool" stuff in that they work on. Warframe isn't an MMORPG! I won't gonna dive into mines and rocks on PoE to build new weapons/items. It sure looks good, and interesting, but It's not what Warframe wants. This change is a perfect example of forced content. It's kind of off-topic now, but I don't even understand why you had to put more new resources into the Plains in the first place. It's on Earth, isn't it? Wouldn't be nice to have the same resources on it then? It sure complicates things and creates these kind of content forcing to squeeze out more playtime from players. Put the Plains into it's own planet then. But that still won't justify the fact that you guys put 20+ new resources into 1 separated segment of the game.

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В 06.02.2018 в 01:22, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

Some weapon crafting costs will be revisited, and PoE resources will be used if it makes sense to better integrate a mix of resources into the game.

Please no.

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So with my testing of a few weapons I like. I have to say some of these buffs seem to have made like...no difference.

Magnus in particular. Crit all the time is good and it's helps, but the CD only being two and the damage only being in line with the other weapons in class pandero and lex prime still makes it arguably the weakest of those three and considering the mr raise it should probably be the strongest no? Any thoughts on increasing the CD? I mean Pandero already has the alt mechanic advantage and it's minor decrease in base damage doesn't out weight it's increase in cd multi. It sure seems like it should have at least a 2.5 cd.

And stradavar while hunters munitions is a thing it's become entirely good. But if you remove hunter munitions from the equation it's still not really getting the job done.

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On February 5, 2018 at 6:01 PM, ZombieProblem said:

Damn that Dual Toxocyst frenzy refresh looked cool.

Until I read the next line_(:3」z)_

 

Yep, 6 down to 2 seconds is the outlier nerf amongst all weapons.

DE, this is your mob shooter.

I love the concept and look of this gun but it is anti-mob-Dakka to the extreme now.  You could say it's for stronger enemies but mobs scale UNIFORMLY so it doesn't work as a battlefield mini-boss-killer because they don't exist, really.

I suggest you either increase the "damage per shot" pay-off with the skill required or extend the refresh out to at least 4-5 seconds so we have a legitimate shot at that "continuous kill Bonus". 

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10 hours ago, TeCoolTenno said:

Why would you go full puncture on Daikyu what

 

anyways it went from 300 per 1.75 seconds (171 DPS) to 184 per 1 second (184 DPS) even with a terribad puncture build it's a buff

 

So just keep doing... whatever it is you're doing

Daikyu was never a weapon you would use to its maximum DPS potential, it was the perfect weapon for seeing something that needed to die and making it die no matter what it was, you eliminated targets of opportunity such at ancient healers or bursas with ease, now its just another spamming bow that 1 shots regular enemies.

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1 hour ago, Manowars said:

Daikyu was never a weapon you would use to its maximum DPS potential, it was the perfect weapon for seeing something that needed to die and making it die no matter what it was, you eliminated targets of opportunity such at ancient healers or bursas with ease, now its just another spamming bow that 1 shots regular enemies.

TBH, daikyu never deals enough damage per shot to be that usefull, indeed bows ARE useless because they lack or punch through against multiple enemy bodies.
Dread with a crit build deals more damage PER SHOT than a daikyu, and that was terrible to begin with and also on a horde game you need more DPS and higher repetition, no high damage per shot.
Thats why tigris prime its no that strong, even with its insanely high damage per shot (indeed, tigris series its the best "important hard to kill stuff dispatcher) or a vectis prime or any other sniper rifle.
Daikyu was a good idea, but on the wrong game.

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On 2/6/2018 at 8:09 PM, schilds said:

A lot of new players will try to skip right to "end game" weapons, and spend a lot of time missing the point that they should be collecting and upgrading mods.

The Mk-1 equipment can take you through the starchart easily with the right mods.

 

Admittedly, part of it is the cost of forma and trying to save those potatoes for weapons that are worth it.

as they should because now with these changes, new players will have next to no good weapons now.

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Will the Buzlok ever have it's targeting beacon fixed? 

It still fires off center when your character is on the right side of the screen which makes it hard to consistently hit what I'm aiming at with the beacon.

It's annoying and it prevents the Buzlok from being a fun to use weapon.

Edited by _Sketch

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4 hours ago, Manowars said:

Daikyu was never a weapon you would use to its maximum DPS potential, it was the perfect weapon for seeing something that needed to die and making it die no matter what it was, you eliminated targets of opportunity such at ancient healers or bursas with ease, now its just another spamming bow that 1 shots regular enemies.

I agree completely but it didn't achieve that both before and after. Instead everyone built gas, and actual 'single target make things blow up' builds were beaten by Dread (headshots deal ANOTHER 2x damage on crit making it 4x, while non-crits only have 2x, so single Daikyu headshots vs Dread headshots were actually relatively similar not even accounting for slash procs, orange crits and fire rate) and actual crit based single target weapons like snipers. Either way elemental damage mods are better even if you don't use the status loll

 

The problem with Daikyu is that DE doesn't acknowledge that low fire rate and single target weapons actually need higher DPS and crit (Daikyu should have had both good crit and status) than AoE or rapid fire because:

base damage falls flat when % damage mods are useful in all builds and crit has an extra multiplier or two to bump up with mods. Trying to pull the 'one shot one kill' on a non-crit weapon almost always fails unless you do it to extreme levels (ahem opticor, which does 1400 damage, 400 of which is in an AoE too! So it's a 'one shot, one kill, and soften someone else in the process' weapon)

status effects are either bad (most procs, just compare toxin or even gas to slash), are better when refreshed when the duration is nearly done (better on high fire rate), or stack (again, even better with high fire rate)

single target DPS is a stat that only makes sense in a vacuum vs an infinite and still health target with an infinite amount of shots. There is more loss per failure (miss a headshot, don't get crit), and overkill ensures the DPS is capped vs multiple low health targets while rapid fire weapons have same DPS vs. a single target and higher DPS with multiple targets. This inherently makes 'rapid fire low dmg per shot' better than 'low fire rate high dmg per shot' with similar DPS. And let's not even get started on AoE weapons which can theoretically (very theoretically) beat any single target weapon with a literal 0.1 DPS yet Tonkor damage is balanced the same as the likes of vectis

The above problem is exacerbated by enemy scaling. The game almost entirely revolves around using weapons vs lvl 100 or so heavy gunners and then having some left over for a few lancers, so DE balances these high fire rate weapons with DPS to kill these heavy gunners in the time it takes for a low fire rate weapon to launch out one shot then one-shot the random nobodies leftover. It should be changed so that low fire rate weapons have much higher single target DPS for heavy single enemies while the lesser enemies scale more in *numbers* not in *stats*, so things like Amprex don't need to deal huge single target DPS to even be remotely considered an 'endgame weapon'. This encourages squads to coordinate loadouts, and solo players to mix up secondaries and primaries.

High fire rate weapons are faster to tend towards averages while low fire rate weapons with RNG and realistic aim (miss the occasional shot) can leave a low fire rate user way below or over the average for a long time. This is worse because it's much harder to balance and bad experiences tend to stick more than good ones

 

Instead, I feel like DE is taking a more 'moba' approach to balancing low fire rate vs high fire rate (which isn't inherently bad, except this isn't a moba game):

1. They overstate the value of burst vs DPS, since killing something quickly means they have less potential to damage you back, so the lack of damage *afterwards* is not needed. However, burst relies on having huge DPS as long as the target is alive (so burst gets worse the tankier the target is) then having no DPS for a long delay afterwards. It is very hard to instantly pop an enemy heavy gunner (huge DPS on the first shot, bad DPS on the fire rate delay) in one shot. Also, in mobas it is PVP where the enemy can outplay you. In Warframe the enemy can be negated by CC and high tankiness that would be considered unfair. Really, low fire rate doesn't even mean high burst until you one shot, in warframe a burst weapon is actually high fire rate, long reload. DE sometimes seems to address this (I think they buffed rubico fire rate... But really the recoil makes it impossible to shoot that fast realistically)

2. They act as if only the huge heavy hitting units are actual factors while being able to kill large groups naturally comes afterwards or is dealt with by warframe powers. It's almost as if lighter units are minions/creeps while heavy units are actual players in terms of balance

Edited by TeCoolTenno
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Am I glad I read the ending portion, because when I saw some of the MR increases, I was going "But but but....The Tigris.... I... Paid for with Plat? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" At the end "Don't freat Tenno, only for newly acquired" I sat down in my chair and said "Thank god for DE for being intelligent and not messing us around :)

A lot of changes, they look good. Glad to see only a few nerfs going around, but truly, looking good.

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Please don't ruin my Talons like this, it's hard enough to not end up accidentally killing myself with them as it is

They weren't even that powerful, I had to have a Riven mod on them

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1 hour ago, Marmorea said:

Please don't ruin my Talons like this, it's hard enough to not end up accidentally killing myself with them as it is

They weren't even that powerful, I had to have a Riven mod on them

What? Talons were buffed

Sadly Sancti castanas are now so much stronger, I got one before the MR was bumped up because I was so hyped.

As a complete noob with the weapon I only had trouble when an ally stood right in front of me, or vs infested where I kept forgetting they charge straight at me, bringing the explosives with them. A more experienced deployed explosives player should have even less trouble..,

Pistol ammo is also unbelievably common so the ammo reduction didn't phase me *at all* though I recently started taking that ammo max increase mod because I had nothing better to put in my slots yet (I never focused on secondary mods and didn't have enough leftover capacity for a lot of things)

 

but DE... can you change castanas so that landing one on a head before detonating counts as a headshot, for hydraulic crosshairs? lol

Edited by TeCoolTenno

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The machine pistol buffs are nice but the main concern was never addressed, accuracy is way to low and ammo pool is so small even ammo mutation and Carrier don't off set it.
That aside THANK GOD the old dmg 1.0 status and Crit chances (2.5%) percentages have finally been upped on most old weapons.

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Le 06.02.2018 à 01:22, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

your favourite weapons (Melee + Beam currently not included)

скорей бы увидеть что там Разработчики  нам приготовили 

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11 hours ago, TeCoolTenno said:

What? Talons were buffed

Sadly Sancti castanas are now so much stronger, I got one before the MR was bumped up because I was so hyped.

As a complete noob with the weapon I only had trouble when an ally stood right in front of me, or vs infested where I kept forgetting they charge straight at me, bringing the explosives with them. A more experienced deployed explosives player should have even less trouble..,

Pistol ammo is also unbelievably common so the ammo reduction didn't phase me *at all* though I recently started taking that ammo max increase mod because I had nothing better to put in my slots yet (I never focused on secondary mods and didn't have enough leftover capacity for a lot of things)

 

but DE... can you change castanas so that landing one on a head before detonating counts as a headshot, for hydraulic crosshairs? lol

Talons were in no way buffed, unless you just look at the raw stats.

The fact is that the weapon essentially lost Multishot. The spread makes it so that it's impossible to get all the Talons on a single target (or even groups of targets) at a range of more than three feet. In order to do any amount of damage comparable to before you basically have to run in, throw them point blank, run out and detonate them.

The spread also made it so that if you try to use it near any sort of wall or obstacle, one of them will randomly decide to hit the wall right next to you and kill you if you detonate them. And half the time you can't even see if they're on the wall since your character is blocking your view, so you either have to constantly rotate the camera, avoid walls or just accept random suicides. And the actual spread is completely random so it's not like it's in any way predictable.

Talons and Castanas (Assumption on the Castanas part since I went straight for Talons, but them seem really similar) are very much precision weapons, and giving them this sort of spread is like giving it to a sniper. It's a nerf.

What looks like a ~25% buff on paper is in practice a nerf to about a third of its original stats, with the added bonus of RNG suicides.

 

Edit: Here's an example of your character blocking your view of possible close grenades:

pno5DF6.gif

Edited by Marmorea
Added image example of RNG suicide
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You forgot to mention it now has the accuracy of a shotgun. I have a 0 recoil Riven that made it pinpoint accurate. You killed my baby.

 

Quote

AkJagara

Mastery Rank increased from 3 to 8

Converted to burst fire that fires two rounds simultaneously

Status chance increased from 20% to 28%

Critical chance increased from 5% to 6%

Mag size increased from 24 to 36

Edited by Vulture051

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2 hours ago, Marmorea said:

Talons were in no way buffed, unless you just look at the raw stats.

The fact is that the weapon essentially lost Multishot. The spread makes it so that it's impossible to get all the Talons on a single target (or even groups of targets) at a range of more than three feet. In order to do any amount of damage comparable to before you basically have to run in, throw them point blank, run out and detonate them.

The spread also made it so that if you try to use it near any sort of wall or obstacle, one of them will randomly decide to hit the wall right next to you and kill you if you detonate them. And half the time you can't even see if they're on the wall since your character is blocking your view, so you either have to constantly rotate the camera, avoid walls or just accept random suicides. And the actual spread is completely random so it's not like it's in any way predictable.

Talons and Castanas (Assumption on the Castanas part since I went straight for Talons, but them seem really similar) are very much precision weapons, and giving them this sort of spread is like giving it to a sniper. It's a nerf.

What looks like a ~25% buff on paper is in practice a nerf to about a third of its original stats, with the added bonus of RNG suicides.

 

Edit: Here's an example of your character blocking your view of possible close grenades:

pno5DF6.gif

Ohh I didn't think of that. I personally don't take any multishot on them anyway since it's fun to throw them one by one at huge crowds. Instead I'm trying to build for:

hornet strike, 4 damage-status mods, augur pact, pistol gambit, target cracker or

hornet strike, augur pact, pistol gambit, creeping bullseye, target cracker, hollow point + 2 elemental mods

(though I'm sorely lacking in mods)

 

Talons and castanas buffs are probably a nerf now that I think about it, but for Sancti castanas the damage was tripled so it's like having innate 300% multishot (except without counting towards the 6 deployed limit) since before now they didn't seem worth building for status and crit anyway (and the innate electric and blast procs don't stack in any way, they had low %s in the stats)

 

but thanks anyway this was definitely something I didn't consider

Edited by TeCoolTenno

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ok, i'm not sure if the zhuge's crit chance decrease from 20% to 10% was on purpose as it wasn't in the notes, but if it is, please reconsider, i loved the hybrid build, if you have to, buff the attica's crit chance if you want them to be more unique...

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