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When the hell is Meme Strike being nerf'd? I'm getting so sick of it, it literally is worse than Ember.


--TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe
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22 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Trust me, she's already on the "needs tweaking" list...

At least the Banshees I've seen on Hydron recently actually use Sonar and Silence now.

Oh boy here we go.  I thought the problem with Banshee and Ember was that they didn't promote active gameplay?  By the time you people are happy we'll be using toothpicks and farts to slog our way through affinity farming.

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33 minutes ago, Urabask said:

By the time you people are happy we'll be using toothpicks and farts to slog our way through affinity farming.

Your false dilemma is on a rather slippery slope there.

34 minutes ago, Urabask said:

I thought the problem with Banshee and Ember was that they didn't promote active gameplay?

That was a small part of the problem. The other part and primary reason for the tweaks was that RQ and WoF were allowing players to cover an area almost the size of Hydron's entire play area and thus be able to grab kills before anyone else could get a shot off. Basically, they didn't allow OTHER players to actually play much.

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34 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Your false dilemma is on a rather slippery slope there.

That was a small part of the problem. The other part and primary reason for the tweaks was that RQ and WoF were allowing players to cover an area almost the size of Hydron's entire play area and thus be able to grab kills before anyone else could get a shot off. Basically, they didn't allow OTHER players to actually play much.

Outside of some drastic nerfs nothing is going to prevent the scenario where 1-2 players kill everything on the Hydron before the other two players get to do much.  If we ever get there it's because we got to the bottom of that slope.

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5 hours ago, Bobmcq11 said:

I don’t understand why we need to nerf anything? I play a lot and I always want to use the most efficient setup possible. I don’t want to take 15 minutes to do a level 12 exterminate to earn a Nitain, and that seems to be the direction a lot of people would like to take this game.

Well, you just answered your own question. There shouldn't be just one "most efficient setup possible", that is obviously better than all the others to such a degree that nobody wants to use anything else. And if you ever bothered to use a rifle, you'd know it still doesn't take 15 minutes to run an exterminate anywhere on the star chart.

1 hour ago, Urabask said:

Outside of some drastic nerfs nothing is going to prevent the scenario where 1-2 players kill everything on the Hydron before the other two players get to do much.  If we ever get there it's because we got to the bottom of that slope.

There is no slippery slope. That's why it's a fallacy. Nobody wants it to be impossible for one person to outplay another. The goal is for people to actually have to play the game if they're going to dominate a mission. The goal is for mindless button mashing or automated killzones not to be part of that.

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35 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

The goal is for mindless button mashing or automated killzones not to be part of that.

If playing mindlessly to get xp is something you cannot do, then maybe it's your problem. Button mashing or no, I often play mindlessly, even through parts of end-game.

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14 minutes ago, Raspberri said:

If playing mindlessly to get xp is something you cannot do, then maybe it's your problem. Button mashing or no, I often play mindlessly, even through parts of end-game.

Anyone can do it. The problem is, it's not enjoyable. I don't know why you think you have time to spend on that sort of thing, but that's your business. I still don't want it to be a part of the games I play.

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4 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Your false dilemma is on a rather slippery slope there.

That was a small part of the problem. The other part and primary reason for the tweaks was that RQ and WoF were allowing players to cover an area almost the size of Hydron's entire play area and thus be able to grab kills before anyone else could get a shot off. Basically, they didn't allow OTHER players to actually play much.

Both can still do that, the point of the nerfs was to stop "entirely" AFK/2 min of doing nothing play (in fact, if anything, Banshee Hydron farm got buffed due to being able to dump duration and just go max strength+range and benefit from Zenurik while only CC and Energy Conversion Ember on energy drop starved maps got a proper nerf, which was probably a "lack of hindsight" consequence of what were likely a week or so at best tested changes).

Patch notes PRBS text reasoning should be ignored since its probably written by someone who had the bright idea to use a outsourced text filter or thinks univac is a bad idea and not the people that worked on the changes; as also proven with ivara changes.

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2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

There is no slippery slope. That's why it's a fallacy. Nobody wants it to be impossible for one person to outplay another. The goal is for people to actually have to play the game if they're going to dominate a mission. The goal is for mindless button mashing or automated killzones not to be part of that.

i.e. an impossible goal.

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@--Dr.AbaddonicSloth

I never really understood why Maiming Strike was chance for Slide-attack to be a critical rather than Charge Attack.

•Even Gun Blades and Glaive weapons having guaranteed Crit charge attacks would seem more balance than spin-to-win (Plus Telos Boltace could have retained Slash on spin)

From my experience Charge Attacks need more of a boost than Slide-attacks.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

@--Dr.AbaddonicSloth

I never really understood why Maiming Strike was chance for Slide-attack to be a critical rather than Charge Attack.

•Even Gun Blades and Glaive weapons having guaranteed Crit charge attacks would seem more balance than spin-to-win (Plus Telos Boltace could have retained Slash on spin)

From my experience Charge Attacks need more of a boost than Slide-attacks.

Charge attks suck. Their slow and clunky... Even glaive charge attks/throws are clunky. Whole charge system needs a revamp.

Glaives need to work similar to the chakrams in kingdoms of amalur.

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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2 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Charge attks suck. Their slow and clunky... Even glaive charge attks/throws are clunky. Whole charge system needs a revamp.

Glaives need to work similar to the chakrams in kingdoms of amalur.

Correct which if Maiming Strike applied to Charge Attacks it would have been a band-aid for them, at the very least.

Hopefully Charge attacks will get a look at with upcoming Melee MR readjustment.

Only things worse than Charge attacks are Wall-attacks & partying.

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On 17.02.2018 at 5:37 PM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Range doesn't need a nerf

When the shotgun range is shorter than the melee, logic says it does. And I'm 100% sure people defending the fidget spinnery will consider the fall-off a nerf too.

However, the issue isn't neither with meme strike, nor with the whips' range.

If one can take a seemingly weak weapon and clear everything the game puts up as challenge with a  2 button combo...you have a problem with the content. The wide variety of weapons, warframes and monsters is rendered pointless.

So, again, toning down anything on the tenno side will not solve anything at all. It would be like applying another bandage over a festering wound. What needs to be done first is to have the enemies rise up to the challenge of their rivals. It's only then that weapons and abilities should be looked at for balance tinkering.

The power fantasy is kinda diluted if you need no brain to live it, but crippling the tennos because their foes are dumb and ill-suited for combat won't make anyrhing better.

As it is, range DOES need to be looked at. I'm better off waving a staff around than I'd be firing my guns. And that at sortie level, without meme strike and without spinning. I ran the whole set of void sorties in the void last night without switching from my zaw staff. 

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1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

When the shotgun range is shorter than the melee, logic says it does. And I'm 100% sure people defending the fidget spinnery will consider the fall-off a nerf too.

However, the issue isn't neither with meme strike, nor with the whips' range.

If one can take a seemingly weak weapon and clear everything the game puts up as challenge with a  2 button combo...you have a problem with the content. The wide variety of weapons, warframes and monsters is rendered pointless.

So, again, toning down anything on the tenno side will not solve anything at all. It would be like applying another bandage over a festering wound. What needs to be done first is to have the enemies rise up to the challenge of their rivals. It's only then that weapons and abilities should be looked at for balance tinkering.

The power fantasy is kinda diluted if you need no brain to live it, but crippling the tennos because their foes are dumb and ill-suited for combat won't make anyrhing better.

As it is, range DOES need to be looked at. I'm better off waving a staff around than I'd be firing my guns. And that at sortie level, without meme strike and without spinning. I ran the whole set of void sorties in the void last night without switching from my zaw staff. 

Hmmmm tbh I can agree with this. The scaling and base level stuff NEEDS to absolutely be looked at, moreso than weapons themselves.

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2 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

When the shotgun range is shorter than the melee, logic says it does. And I'm 100% sure people defending the fidget spinnery will consider the fall-off a nerf too.

However, the issue isn't neither with meme strike, nor with the whips' range.

If one can take a seemingly weak weapon and clear everything the game puts up as challenge with a  2 button combo...you have a problem with the content. The wide variety of weapons, warframes and monsters is rendered pointless.

So, again, toning down anything on the tenno side will not solve anything at all. It would be like applying another bandage over a festering wound. What needs to be done first is to have the enemies rise up to the challenge of their rivals. It's only then that weapons and abilities should be looked at for balance tinkering.

The power fantasy is kinda diluted if you need no brain to live it, but crippling the tennos because their foes are dumb and ill-suited for combat won't make anyrhing better.

As it is, range DOES need to be looked at. I'm better off waving a staff around than I'd be firing my guns. And that at sortie level, without meme strike and without spinning. I ran the whole set of void sorties in the void last night without switching from my zaw staff. 

And? Nowhere does it say u HAVE to use one weapon or the other. This game allows u to choose how u play. People shouldn't be forced into needing to use guns. I prefer melee over guns, and i don't use whips.

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On 2/5/2018 at 7:58 PM, --Dr.AbaddonicSloth said:

You didn't read, boi. I don't necessarily mind the mod, but the fact that it can have such huge melee range is the problem. If it were just like a 5, 6m range/AOE then I wouldn't mind it AS MUCH, but you constantly see noobs using it on huge range melees like whips, the range is double what every other melee is, not counting rivens. Including rivens it becomes absurd. BUT you can't just not allow it on specific types of weapons cause that is basically prejudice against a weapon type and people won't like that. So it needs another alternative, a nerf. You are defending it so I assume you main it btw.

Nobody is going to use a melee with 5-6m range, that's just ridiculous.

Are you trying to nerf yourself and everyone else or something? If so, I'm not going down with you btw.

Also to be quite honest, you complaining makes me wanna use my Atterax with maiming strike now since it has a few months of rust, I appreciate it. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

And? Nowhere does it say u HAVE to use one weapon or the other. This game allows u to choose how u play. People shouldn't be forced into needing to use guns. I prefer melee over guns, and i don't use whips.

Following your logic, I'd say let's give the Fang Prime a 40m range! I want to be on par with whip users with them :D

No one forced people to use guns in Delta Force either. You could've made quite an impact with only a dagger and smart play. However - and this is where we seem to have different opinions - while both a sniper rifle and the dagger were equally deadly, you could not have backstabbed someone from 3 rooms away.

Your previous comment regarding the range is solely based on the fact that insane melee range is convenient and requires no brain to spam whatever combo. Both that and the "forced to use blah-blah" statements don't offer much a counterargument. 'Sides, both these and the toggle-and-forget abilities are on the same page.

All are raising a single question: "Why have 400 weapons and 40 warframes when all you need is a planet-sized aoe ability or an overcompensatingly long stick (or whip)?" 160 abilities and gazillion potential weapon setups rendered useless with a macro or a push of a button. And that isn't really because of the weapons or warframes capabilities, but because the enemies are nothing more than grass waiting to be mowed.

Lastly, this game does offer a huge variety of means to handle the challenges it throws at you... wait... It actually doesn't throw challenges at you, but practice dummies. Except a few sorties with restrictions imposed on loadouts, we will always take the path of the least resistance and use the most efficient tool - which usually is either that toggle ability or the huge-arse melee weapons - for cutting them down. The game however should... or could offer scenarios or missions where one would either need to switch between the tools one has or where there would be a much bigger negative impact of using unsuited weapons. And everything keeps boiling down to what are we fighting against, not how.

And you know what?! I'd love to have Alad V or Vor make a come back with more warframe clones using old times builds, including - but not limited to - Ember's WoF, Saryn's Miasma or Banshee's RQ... and I'd love to have the factions use mod setups that mimic ours on their weapons against us.

And when a grineer guard will knock you on your butt with his staff the moment it shows up on the radar, you'll understand - maybe - that the range is a problem.

Similarly, when the acolytes would fidget-spin you into yesterday using the Blood Rush/Meme Strike combo, we will also agree on that combo being way too strong.

And let's not forget that the infested brought the whole Solar System to its knees... certainly not the infested WE are currently fighting against (as they're certainly weaker after centuries of assimilation and genetic mutations).

When the battlefield actually becomes one, you'll be spearheading the nerf to melee range :D

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On 2/17/2018 at 2:32 PM, Urabask said:

Oh boy here we go.  I thought the problem with Banshee and Ember was that they didn't promote active gameplay?  By the time you people are happy we'll be using toothpicks and farts to slog our way through affinity farming.

With Banshee I agree, but Equinox is just Slash Ember. The fact people have effectively replaced Ember with Equinox on Hydron speaks by itself.

 

Edited by Jarriaga
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7 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

Following your logic, I'd say let's give the Fang Prime a 40m range! I want to be on par with whip users with them :D

No one forced people to use guns in Delta Force either. You could've made quite an impact with only a dagger and smart play. However - and this is where we seem to have different opinions - while both a sniper rifle and the dagger were equally deadly, you could not have backstabbed someone from 3 rooms away.

Your previous comment regarding the range is solely based on the fact that insane melee range is convenient and requires no brain to spam whatever combo. Both that and the "forced to use blah-blah" statements don't offer much a counterargument. 'Sides, both these and the toggle-and-forget abilities are on the same page.

All are raising a single question: "Why have 400 weapons and 40 warframes when all you need is a planet-sized aoe ability or an overcompensatingly long stick (or whip)?" 160 abilities and gazillion potential weapon setups rendered useless with a macro or a push of a button. And that isn't really because of the weapons or warframes capabilities, but because the enemies are nothing more than grass waiting to be mowed.

Lastly, this game does offer a huge variety of means to handle the challenges it throws at you... wait... It actually doesn't throw challenges at you, but practice dummies. Except a few sorties with restrictions imposed on loadouts, we will always take the path of the least resistance and use the most efficient tool - which usually is either that toggle ability or the huge-arse melee weapons - for cutting them down. The game however should... or could offer scenarios or missions where one would either need to switch between the tools one has or where there would be a much bigger negative impact of using unsuited weapons. And everything keeps boiling down to what are we fighting against, not how.

And you know what?! I'd love to have Alad V or Vor make a come back with more warframe clones using old times builds, including - but not limited to - Ember's WoF, Saryn's Miasma or Banshee's RQ... and I'd love to have the factions use mod setups that mimic ours on their weapons against us.

And when a grineer guard will knock you on your butt with his staff the moment it shows up on the radar, you'll understand - maybe - that the range is a problem.

Similarly, when the acolytes would fidget-spin you into yesterday using the Blood Rush/Meme Strike combo, we will also agree on that combo being way too strong.

And let's not forget that the infested brought the whole Solar System to its knees... certainly not the infested WE are currently fighting against (as they're certainly weaker after centuries of assimilation and genetic mutations).

When the battlefield actually becomes one, you'll be spearheading the nerf to melee range :D

Im not advocating a 20m+ melee range... Perhaps read my previous posts. Im against nerfing reach mods as they greatly increase the effectiveness of short range weapons... Like daggers. Or sparring weapons, even sum dual swords like my personal favorite dark split sword carving mantis stance. Reach mods greatly enhance its ability to kill with standing on top of an enemy. 

So capping stupid range 20m+... Idc, i dnt want to nerf reach mods as that will nerf every melee in WF. Im not spearheading anything, open ur eyes before u open ur mouth.

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13 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Im not advocating a 20m+ melee range... Perhaps read my previous posts. Im against nerfing reach mods as they greatly increase the effectiveness of short range weapons... Like daggers. Or sparring weapons, even sum dual swords like my personal favorite dark split sword carving mantis stance. Reach mods greatly enhance its ability to kill with standing on top of an enemy. 

So capping stupid range 20m+... Idc, i dnt want to nerf reach mods as that will nerf every melee in WF. Im not spearheading anything, open ur eyes before u open ur mouth.

I guess I have to apologize :) as I mistook your "range does'n need a nerf" to be aimed at the weapons, not mods.

If anything, whips should have a shorter range - nothing else. BUT again, I don't think it's the tenno armory that needs to be inspected and adjusted. It's our foes that need an increase in their defense budget, so they can mod their weaponry and learn better tactics (as just zerging us does seem to be highly inefficient in assuring their continued existence).

DE won't be able to balance the game if they only apply the nerf hammer tactics. They'll eventually end up leveling the weaponry and modding possibilities, making the fights either bland and boring or incredibily frustrating... and that only to "protect" the obviously handicaped factions from the harsh conditions we, the tennos, are creating for them with our ever increasing numbers and arsenal.

Edited by Himenoinu
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On 2/5/2018 at 7:07 PM, --Dr.AbaddonicSloth said:

You all literally are missing the point I'm saying.. THE MOD ISN'T NECESSARILY THE PROBLEM, the range of the weapons it is used on is. The mod is fine, but the fact that so many people use it on huge &#! range melees and kills entire rooms of lvl 100 enemies in like 2 seconds is what bugs me.

I believe the core issue is that the mod's crit chance just adds to the base the crit chance instead of multiplying it by the listed amount.

 

Edited by Leqesai
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