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When the hell is Meme Strike being nerf'd? I'm getting so sick of it, it literally is worse than Ember.


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2 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Nerf primed reach? Thats gonna hurt ALOT of other weapons. Sparring, claws, nunchucks, some dual swords, most one handed swords... Would hurt a ton of weapons nerfing that mod not even including exalted weapons like valkyr claws

All of those examples are terrible options for Primed Reach, given how small the benefit tends to be.

Hell, I do use it on the occasional Machete or OH Sword, but that's only if I can't think of something else to put there.  I tend to get FAR more from a 90% Elemental or 120% IPS mod instead, and anytime I see the option I add Blood Rush/Drifting Contact instead.

Look, people sweeping rooms are using Primed Reach and something with a naturally high base range to accomplish the massive number of hits required.  As long as melee is powerful AT ALL this fact will not change, and these MS builds can usually just slot in something else that boosts damage and accomplish near identical results at sub-Sortie levels.

For that matter, I DO NOT run MS on my Sortie gear.  There's no point.  I can turn out enough damage other ways OR damage won't be particularly useful.  WAAAAAAAY too often I find that I'm the only one focused on KILLING things.  Everyone else just CCs and dashes by.

Farming on Starchart missions is all about doing as much damage in as large an area as possible.  There would be fewer new players encountering hard-core farming strategies if they weren't matched to people who are 1000+ hour MR 20+ vets that just need X more of that one resource.  The farming mentality is something that DEs grindy gameplay ACTIVELY ENCOURAGES.

I'm NOT saying we need to "nerf the thing in order to fix the other thing", I'm saying that the tools used are not the ones the OP identified.  Moreover, I DISAGREE with nerfing ANYTHING that makes the farming less odious.

Therefore, my point is this:  Maiming Strike isn't killing rooms full of Starchart enemies, melee is.  Melee is clearing such huge swaths of foes so quickly BY HITTING THEM, and that falls to Primed Reach buffing something with good base range in the first place.  There are PLENTY of options for sweeping rooms at Starchart levels that have NOTHING to do with melee AT ALL.  As such, Maiming Strike IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

If you want more to do in Starchart missions, roll out Solo or Friends Only until DE fixes this weird matchmaking logic.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Nerf primed reach? Thats gonna hurt ALOT of other weapons. Sparring, claws, nunchucks, some dual swords, most one handed swords... Would hurt a ton of weapons nerfing that mod not even including exalted weapons like valkyr claws

Actually, changing Primed Reach and normal Reach to be 4~4.5m and 1.5~2m range increase respectively would be amazing for short ranged melee while not heavily effecting pole, whip and whipblade weapons (since primed reach is bugged/range calculations are probably based on some bonus range and not a innate 1 or 1.5m range which means 5m of whips becomes 11.5m instead of the 13.25m range it should be with a 165% bonus), especially since claws, fists and swords already get a massive benefit from the mere meter and half primed reach gives them due to being easier to hit with finisher opening attacks.

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5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Actually, changing Primed Reach and normal Reach to be 4~4.5m and 1.5~2m range increase respectively would be amazing for short ranged melee while not heavily effecting pole, whip and whipblade weapons (since primed reach is bugged/range calculations are probably based on some bonus range and not a innate 1 or 1.5m range which means 5m of whips becomes 11.5m instead of the 13.25m range it should be with a 165% bonus), especially since claws, fists and swords already get a massive benefit from the mere meter and half primed reach gives them due to being easier to hit with finisher opening attacks.

Better still, a touch of animation work would be all that's required to explain this away.

Heck, we don't have to even have that much.

Regardless, I feel as if more engaging missions, where they actively adapt to the players, might be a better call.  If someone's spamming melee, the mission drops in enemies that are tough to kill if you don't aim.  If you're spamming abilities, the game loads up foes that are RESISTANT (because F*** Nullifiers and the BS immunity bubble) to abilities.  I'd even be amused to see some better AI as well, since I'm asking for so much already.

I believe there are plenty of alternatives to nerfing things.  Just bumping numbers up or down can change things, but sometimes a bit of clever game design can also offset a problem.

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On 2/6/2018 at 5:23 AM, Sorise said:

Don't really see the issue here. Maim is useful for focus farming w/ multiple weapons(including favorites) w/o putting forma on any of them and how often does range on Riven come up for huge radius weapons and whips?

The title's wrong. OP is aiming his/her frustration at the range of the weapons and probably at the bot-like behavior of players with whips and (maybe) Meme Strikes.

Melee weapons having higher range than shotguns is a rather awkward situation that needs to be looked at. Meme Strike would be fine as it is if the range of the weapons would be brought down to logical values. People spamming slide attacks (or the macros associated with it) do put a bit more effort into it than Embers and Banshees were, but I agree that it's still rather annoying :D

On 2/6/2018 at 5:08 AM, Bronjun said:

Solo then? 

That'd be a nice solution for the slide bots. You don't need a team to clear content with the whip spin builds, so why join the public runs?!

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On 2/5/2018 at 7:44 PM, (PS4)solartorch81 said:

I think it just need to be applied after blood rush and not before.

I was about to post this, but I'm glad it's already been made. The only thing that makes whips and long-range melee weapons so stupidly powerful is how blood rush and maiming strike synergize. 25% base + 90% maiming strike x 165% per combo multiplier is a ridiculous amount of crit that you can't reach any other way. This is the same problem Chroma's vex armor had in terms of calculation order, which is why DE nerfed it.

If maiming strike's bonus was tweaked to be added after blood rush's calculation, nobody would be complaining about atterax and other whips being broken.

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Just read through the rest of the thread, and here we go with the fanatical white-knighting of a clearly abused mechanic. I'm just gonna copy+paste something I said elsewhere:

Quote

The people crying about "u r an selfish" and "muh playstyle" are the ones who will inevitably get blood rush and maiming strike synergy nerfed, because these 2-button-mash scrubs are the ones who are abusing the daylights out of them both. These are the same kinds of people who defended mirage+synoid simulor, synoid gammacor, and telos boltace, and look what happened to those weapons. They were abused, trivializing the game for everyone not using them and turning their game into a walking simulator, and eventually nerfed to the point that they're now worthless and nobody uses them. When was the last time you seen someone use telos boltace? I sure haven't.

Now look what's happening to Ember and Banshee, the walking simulator and AFK frames that trivialize low-level missions. They're heading to the nerfing block as we speak, because "press 4 to win" noobs can't keep their fingers off the soundquake and world on fire and now they're crying that everyone else is just being selfish and "muh playstyles!". They are their own worst enemy and they refuse to accept the fact they're the ones responsible for this.

Please, keep on abusing this broken combo that shouldn't exist. The more you do, the more you bring it to DE's attention and they'll have no choice but to address it. If you're not one of these mechanic abusers, you should still try and do your part. Help prove to DE and the community that this combination should be looked at.

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And of course we have the tired excuse of "play solo". Here's another copy+paste:

Quote

...

Nobody, beyond people farming focus affinity or unveiling a riven, likes to play solo for one reason and one reason only: Spawnrates are awful. Take survival for example. It's more difficult to play survival alone, because not enough enemies are spawning and even fewer still are dropping life support. Have you ever tried farming mutagen samples solo to research the hema? I have, with a nekros and galatine prime modded for huge slash and since I contributed 60-75% of the samples to the research (it's a ghost clan and I'm one of the few still active), I can tell you the following with utmost confidence: Farming anything solo is tedious because of spawns.

...

Hell, now that I think about it, people abusing these mechanics should be the one playing solo by your logic. Clearly they don't need a team to help them trivialize the mission, so why do they need other people to play with them? Is it because the spawns are terrible?

 

Edited by Pizzarugi
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@Pizzarugi: I too farmed disheartening quantities of Mutagen Samples for my Ghost Clan's Hema research.  I rolled ODS runs until my eyes bled and I could Nidus in my sleep.  Orokin Derelict Survival used to be a favorite mission type for me...

I always rolled Friends Only in the off chance someone else needed to do the same thing.  In fact, Friends Only IS Solo mode as far as I'm concerned.

As to Maiming Strike, DEFINITELY it needs to be applied AFTER Blood Rush.  That just isn't right.  In terms of numbers, I wouldn't change it much, if at all.  Maybe drop it from +90% additive crit to  +60% additive?  Simply changing the order in which it's applied would help.

Slide attack multipliers may also be a touch high for some weapons, but I'm not sure if or how that should be changed.

Edited by Cytobel
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2 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

The title's wrong. OP is aiming his/her frustration at the range of the weapons and probably at the bot-like behavior of players with whips and (maybe) Meme Strikes.

Melee weapons having higher range than shotguns is a rather awkward situation that needs to be looked at. Meme Strike would be fine as it is if the range of the weapons would be brought down to logical values. People spamming slide attacks (or the macros associated with it) do put a bit more effort into it than Embers and Banshees were, but I agree that it's still rather annoying :D

That'd be a nice solution for the slide bots. You don't need a team to clear content with the whip spin builds, so why join the public runs?!

Well, blame Primed Reach them.

Whips were already extremely long(At least the mythical ones were like modern Castlevania games and the anime).

All this kill too fast thing won't ever go away.

Trying to slice enemies in half can be hard for Nekros when 3 others are around.

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38 minutes ago, Sorise said:

All this kill too fast thing won't ever go away.

I'm new to the game and I just got to start dreaming that we'll have a "quality over quantity" patch regarding the enemies we face. With damage reflect units, with more blinding attacks from factions and so on. To the point where no one warframe can do stupid amounts of damage to any map and where warframes' abilities complement each other and the loadouts they carry.

But I agree with you, no amount of weapons/warframes/mods fixing will take away the cheese-through playstyle. At least not as long as we're fighting potatoes and tomatoes instead of hardened soldier and intelligent engineers. Hell, even the infested should assimilate some of their victims' behavior instead of being just fast zombies :D Then we'd have an end to all types of complaints regarding playing in groups while completely ignoring your team mates :D

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On 2/5/2018 at 9:32 PM, Twilight053 said:

If the player needs to go solo in an online co-op to have fun, then something has already went wrong and needs fixing.

Bad logic...if someone needs to play co-op in order to complete content, then something has gone wrong.

Telling someone to play solo so they can play the way they want isn't a poor suggestion.

When you play with other people, you need to learn to accept other playstyles, otherwise, why are you playing an online game?

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40 minutes ago, Aegni said:

Bad logic...if someone needs to play co-op in order to complete content, then something has gone wrong.

Telling someone to play solo so they can play the way they want isn't a poor suggestion.

When you play with other people, you need to learn to accept other playstyles, otherwise, why are you playing an online game?

So people want to spin their wips till they drop off the map from too much centrifugal force... they too should play solo, which isn't a poor suggestion. Equally true to sending play the solo the people who wanna feel like a ninja, not a vacuum.

Besides, the logic is sturdy. A person who farms and complains about any nerf ruining his/her efficiency has little to do with fun. You are only talking from a job perspective., not touching the fun element Twilight was mentioning. And after a 20 minutes of survival, no sane person would still call "fun" a playstyle that limits itself to spin attacks. I just tried this.

And I'mma say again, Meme Strike is nothign more than a punching bag used to vent a bigger frustration. Either the fact that it can slip into Rivens or because of how people use it (similar to how they were (ab)using - and then crying for- the fcked up buffs of Chroma). I did the 20 min survival on Ophelia and the poor Grineer were just flipping over dead. 10 minutes in though, the slide attacks were already making the whole trip brain-dead. So, sorry, but your logic has nothing to do with fun, again.

Spin-attacks and high crit stacking via Blood Rush and Gladiator set are what's fueling the outrageous range whips. Meme Strike is just... there.

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2 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

So people want to spin their wips till they drop off the map from too much centrifugal force... they too should play solo, which isn't a poor suggestion. Equally true to sending play the solo the people who wanna feel like a ninja, not a vacuum.

Besides, the logic is sturdy. A person who farms and complains about any nerf ruining his/her efficiency has little to do with fun. You are only talking from a job perspective., not touching the fun element Twilight was mentioning. And after a 20 minutes of survival, no sane person would still call "fun" a playstyle that limits itself to spin attacks. I just tried this.

And I'mma say again, Meme Strike is nothign more than a punching bag used to vent a bigger frustration. Either the fact that it can slip into Rivens or because of how people use it (similar to how they were (ab)using - and then crying for- the fcked up buffs of Chroma). I did the 20 min survival on Ophelia and the poor Grineer were just flipping over dead. 10 minutes in though, the slide attacks were already making the whole trip brain-dead. So, sorry, but your logic has nothing to do with fun, again.

Spin-attacks and high crit stacking via Blood Rush and Gladiator set are what's fueling the outrageous range whips. Meme Strike is just... there.

So...if the person's definition of "fun" involves spining like a top for over 20 minutes they're not sane?  That is an odd way of taking a subjective matter and stating there is a strict definition for it. Just because YOU get bored of spinning around for 10 minutes using Atterax does not encompass anyone else. I like spinning around and pretending I am a beyblade while I am playing Nekros.   I like the fact that if I want to clear a mass of enemies I don't need to rely on a handful of warframe abilities that don't generally scale.

Fun is subjective, and in co-op play, a singular person should not expect to have an influence on how OTHER people play. "I don't like the fact you're using Equinox to maim everything...stop it."   Pardon but, who are you (general) to determine how I should and should not play the game?

 

Let alone the game is a HORDE shooter,  so using weapons/abilities to clear a horde is an integral aspect of the game.  Screaming that someone should not be using an AOE weapon in a game where AOE is an integral part of gameplay is demanding the gameplay be changed for what another person finds enjoyable.  That isn't balancing, that is catering, and its why games like Destiny 2 fail, or games such as LoL have immense balancing issues.

Ignore the whining...  Worked well for Street fighter.

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15 minutes ago, Aegni said:

So...if the person's definition of "fun" involves spining like a top for over 20 minutes they're not sane?  That is an odd way of taking a subjective matter and stating there is a strict definition for it. Just because YOU get bored of spinning around for 10 minutes using Atterax does not encompass anyone else. I like spinning around and pretending I am a beyblade while I am playing Nekros.   I like the fact that if I want to clear a mass of enemies I don't need to rely on a handful of warframe abilities that don't generally scale.

My problem here isn't with what you consider fun. But how the fun element loses the battle vs the efficiency one in pretty much any argument. And here's where things get complicated. I want to have fun, but can't, because an abnoxious ranged whip is more devastating than any fire weapon, or because this or that frame can kill things before they can get their bearings and so on. All I can do is... be grateful for whatever affinity and random loot?! Can't. Be grateful that is. It's like being invited to a party but having to sit the whole night on the chair next to the speakers. Good music at least! :D

16 minutes ago, Aegni said:

Pardon but, who are you (general) to determine how I should and should not play the game?

Is this your answer to your own earlier comment below?

3 hours ago, Aegni said:

Telling someone to play solo so they can play the way they want isn't a poor suggestion.

The thing for me was that it's quite nasty to send someone to play with himself/herself if they don't like your "twister" playstyle. Or the other way around. Neither of the two groups of people should have to opt for solo/friends matches because of it. I don't like to play vacuum behind a twister or a scorchers. The game tag is "Ninjas play for free", not "Ninjas vacuum". Playing as a vacuum pet with a vacuum companion for any (pretty much) game breaking warframe or weapon is not fun. It's at best "Vacuum Sentinel Simulator".

 

17 minutes ago, Aegni said:

Let alone the game is a HORDE shooter,  so using weapons/abilities to clear a horde is an integral aspect of the game.

It's a horde shooter, yes. You shoot, spank, squash and launch hordes. All 4 tennos should. Not 1 who's doing that and the other 3 just calmly coming up with brooms behind :D

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In the end, the issue is not whips, not strike, not anything else, it would be the combo.

The only answer would be the range of effectiveness nerf for each if these mods.

That's right, damage falloff is the answer.

So nothin itself it's nerfed, not even whip range.

You'd expect whips to be very long like Ghost Riders chain.

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To be fair, maiming strike isnt a problem by itself, reach mods are.

Build an orthos prime without maiming strike with reach and crit and you can clear entire maps in a minute or less with volt.

 

Build any whip weapon with maiming strike and wkthout reach mods and let me know if you can do the same.

Melee its ok on the damage side, the main problem here are that long ranged weapons with primed reach have A LOT OF RANGE. And i mean A LOT.

This alone takes all the normal problems involved on melee gameplay like being CCed, etc.

 

Maiming Strike its fine. Reach mods are the ones making it that powerfull.

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30 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

My problem here isn't with what you consider fun. But how the fun element loses the battle vs the efficiency one in pretty much any argument. And here's where things get complicated. I want to have fun, but can't, because an abnoxious ranged whip is more devastating than any fire weapon, or because this or that frame can kill things before they can get their bearings and so on. All I can do is... be grateful for whatever affinity and random loot?! Can't. Be grateful that is. It's like being invited to a party but having to sit the whole night on the chair next to the speakers. Good music at least! :D

The analogy is hardly comparable, because really, under no circumstance is someone who is slide attacking everything going to magically kill everything on the map.  Perhaps maybe at level 20 and 30.  As the enemies scale, however, this becomes much less feasible and your squad becomes important in assisting in horde management.  The main reason people seem to have an issue is because the scaling of the maps on the star chart is inferior to what the weapons have been designed for at the moment.

An atterax fully modded out is meant to take on high level enemies.  See EMber, Equinox etc etc.

30 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Is this your answer to your own earlier comment below?

I don't believe I am the one complaining about someone's playstyle. So...no?

30 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

The thing for me was that it's quite nasty to send someone to play with himself/herself if they don't like your "twister" playstyle. Or the other way around. Neither of the two groups of people should have to opt for solo/friends matches because of it. I don't like to play vacuum behind a twister or a scorchers. The game tag is "Ninjas play for free", not "Ninjas vacuum". Playing as a vacuum pet with a vacuum companion for any (pretty much) game breaking warframe or weapon is not fun. It's at best "Vacuum Sentinel Simulator".

And...again...it is a selfish way of thinking.  "I don't like the way you play because its not fun for me."

Yes but it is fun for that person and perhaps the other two people. It isn't acceptable to demand something be changed simply because an extreme minority is unhappy.  They can easily recruit and use alternatives for forming a party.  When you play public, you have to accept that any kind of playstyle is going to come in.

30 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

 

It's a horde shooter, yes. You shoot, spank, squash and launch hordes. All 4 tennos should. Not 1 who's doing that and the other 3 just calmly coming up with brooms behind :D

I don't have this issue, perhaps it is the weapons you are choosing to use...or the fact you are utilizing a defensive frame.

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I've had a slight disdain when it comes to maiming strike users, and melee users who insist on just 'e' spamming to tear through mobs.
Why? (Aside from the fact I find that style of play lame and boring af)

The reason is simply because melee combos (through stances) are not rewarded well enough for the efforts involved to skillfully execute, yet the aforementioned tactics are given a near free pass for numbers that rival or even exceed the best execution a combo can offer in enemy clear and dps.

By all means, players may play how they wish and I won't S#&$ talk people for doing what they find fun (though my view on the matter still stands) - but with melee being the only weapons capable of true damage scaling [w/ the combo counter] to the obscene enemy scaling currently in place - should players be rewarded so greatly in using melee so simply?
For me the matter has never been in the numbers entirely, but the payout in playing the game with mastery in regards to its' mechanics. 
Those who play well should be rewarded.
Those who do not ... does anyone see where I'm coming from?

 

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7 minutes ago, AweMuse said:

I've had a slight disdain when it comes to maiming strike users, and melee users who insist on just 'e' spamming to tear through mobs.
Why? (Aside from the fact I find that style of play lame and boring af)

The reason is simply because melee combos (through stances) are not rewarded well enough for the efforts involved to skillfully execute, yet the aforementioned tactics are given a near free pass for numbers that rival or even exceed the best execution a combo can offer in enemy clear and dps.

By all means, players may play how they wish and I won't S#&$ talk people for doing what they find fun (though my view on the matter still stands) - but with melee being the only weapons capable of true damage scaling [w/ the combo counter] to the obscene enemy scaling currently in place - should players be rewarded so greatly in using melee so simply?
For me the matter has never been in the numbers entirely, but the payout in playing the game with mastery in regards to its' mechanics. 
Those who play well should be rewarded.
Those who do not ... does anyone see where I'm coming from?

Turns out scrubs who can't see past the crouch and melee button don't want to learn how to play the game, while continuing to think they're pros because they can clear the room in one attack. Don't call them out on it though, they'll cry that you're actually being the selfish one and you want to take away their precious little playstyle.

And you know what? Fine. That abuse is what's going to get their noob toy nerfed, just like it did with Chroma's vex armor, synoid simulor, synoid gammacor and telos boltace.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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6 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Turns out scrubs who can't see past the crouch and melee button don't want to learn how to play the game, while continuing to think they're pros because they can clear the room in one attack. Don't call them out on it though, they'll cry that you're actually being the selfish one and you want to take away their precious little playstyle.

And you know what? Fine. That abuse is what's going to get their noob toy nerfed, just like it did with Chroma's vex armor, synoid simulor, synoid gammacor and telos boltace.

Angry much?

Anyways @AweMuse:  Not all stances are bad.  Cleaving whirlwind and tempo royale both reward a lot of dmage for their combos such that a maiming strike spam is inferior for killing their targets.

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1 hour ago, Aegni said:

Angry much?

Anyways @AweMuse:  Not all stances are bad.  Cleaving whirlwind and tempo royale both reward a lot of dmage for their combos such that a maiming strike spam is inferior for killing their targets.

Crushing Ruin is a favorite of mine as well.  It's got very simple combos on a very simple, brute-force type of weapon.  Better still, I can slide in, flip over into the pause combo, and go with the block combo to clear any stragglers.  Best of all, it FLOWS like that, each aspect working with the others.

I'm very fond of Cyclone Kraken and Twirling Spire too.

Thing is that I cannot say either of the Whip stances have combos worth the name.  I get why people just go with slide attacks there.  It's actually the best way to play them.

Revisiting old stances that nobody likes to use is also a good idea for trying to change the Maiming meta.

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3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Turns out scrubs who can't see past the crouch and melee button don't want to learn how to play the game, while continuing to think they're pros because they can clear the room in one attack. Don't call them out on it though, they'll cry that you're actually being the selfish one and you want to take away their precious little playstyle.

And you know what? Fine. That abuse is what's going to get their noob toy nerfed, just like it did with Chroma's vex armor, synoid simulor, synoid gammacor and telos boltace.

Yes, because all of the other abilities/weapons in the game that clears room is a ok.. This one, gotta go. Your insults are wonderful btw, try actually putting a coherent thought together next time. 

BTW, chroma's was a bug based on bad math, not really the same thing.  

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5 hours ago, Aegni said:

And...again...it is a selfish way of thinking.  "I don't like the way you play because its not fun for me."

You've got it backwards. There are four people in a squad. And when one of them plays that way, the other three don't have a choice. That is selfish. People who just want to participate are not selfish for asking you not to break the game.

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1 hour ago, tCartmant said:

Yes, because all of the other abilities/weapons in the game that clears room is a ok.. This one, gotta go. Your insults are wonderful btw, try actually putting a coherent thought together next time. 

BTW, chroma's was a bug based on bad math, not really the same thing.  

You're implying that I'm okay with that double standard. A lot of other things that trivialize the game have got to go, but right now the biggest one is how maiming strike is being buffed by blood rush.

And yes, the math is roughly the same as chroma's vex armor bug. Maiming strike shouldn't be getting buffed 165% by blood rush for every combo multiplier. That sends the critical chance skyrocketing that no other weapon can reach. As such, the damage of weapons with high reach and/or base crit chance (ex. atterax, scoliac and some polearms) achieve damage numbers far beyond anything else in the game. The same happened with chroma's vex armor by buffing the damage of weapons after additive damage bonus calculations.

If maiming strike's 90% crit chance was added after blood rush's math, there would be no problem whatsoever. Nothing needs to be nerfed, whips and polearms don't need their range reduced, nothing.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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