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When the hell is Meme Strike being nerf'd? I'm getting so sick of it, it literally is worse than Ember.


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It is really laughable at the moment with all the buzz surrounding Ember, Banshee and Chroma a hughe balance pass for weapons and spin2win wasn`t mentioned or acknowledged at all? They fixed it for Telos Boltace, it was the EXACT SAME thing, huge radius, goes through walls did absurd damage and somehow it`s fine yet again.  

How is this just going on and on, we had this before! I would really appreciate if DE didn`t need one or two years to make up their mind if something is broken or not. gas-stealth, shadow step, spamulor, spin2win part 1, mirage raid blind etc. etc. etc.

It isn`t difficult to fix at all, put a hardcap on melee range or reduce spin attack damage for whips exclusively to almost nothing! 

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14 minutes ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

It is really laughable at the moment with all the buzz surrounding Ember, Banshee and Chroma a hughe balance pass for weapons and spin2win wasn`t mentioned or acknowledged at all? They fixed it for Telos Boltace, it was the EXACT SAME thing, huge radius, goes through walls did absurd damage and somehow it`s fine yet again.  

How is this just going on and on, we had this before! I would really appreciate if DE didn`t need one or two years to make up their mind if something is broken or not. gas-stealth, shadow step, spamulor, spin2win part 1, mirage raid blind etc. etc. etc.

It isn`t difficult to fix at all, put a hardcap on melee range or reduce spin attack damage for whips exclusively to almost nothing! 

Refer back to my comment before yours. It's not the range that is the issue nor is it the spin attack damage. It's how maiming strike (flat 90% crit added) is being buffed by blood rush (165% per combo multiplier). Even weapons with terrible crit chance and high range can achieve high amounts of damage from those 2 mods alone. All that needs to change is how the math is done, where maiming strike is applied after blood rush.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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4 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Crushing Ruin is a favorite of mine as well.  It's got very simple combos on a very simple, brute-force type of weapon.  Better still, I can slide in, flip over into the pause combo, and go with the block combo to clear any stragglers.  Best of all, it FLOWS like that, each aspect working with the others.

I'm very fond of Cyclone Kraken and Twirling Spire too.

Thing is that I cannot say either of the Whip stances have combos worth the name.  I get why people just go with slide attacks there.  It's actually the best way to play them.

Revisiting old stances that nobody likes to use is also a good idea for trying to change the Maiming meta.

I had high hopes for Twirling Spire, unfortunately for me no matter how many Attack Speed boosting mods I put into a polearm with that stance it feels oddly clunky even with proper combo execution. However, Shimmering Blight or the basic polearm quick melee combo is very effective and flows fluidly with the slide spin attack. Even though I’m not in melee mode, I still enjoy polearms quick melee.

The same goes for dual dagger quick melee. Remember when Fang Prime absolutely dominated the melee meta in Damage 1.0? I still do.

edit: In all honesty, though, Warframe has gone through many heaps and hurdles when it came to melee and I feel like we’re in a good spot. We’re Space Ninjas with a plethora of guns and weapons taking down hordes of enemies. That’s the basic premise of this game’s fantasy, and I’d like it to stick this way. 

Melee bumped up into a pretty big level ever since the Shadow Debt mods premiered. Body Count (also Drifting Contact as a nightmare mod) shifted the playing field, Venka Prime’s x1.75 combo counter rate, and now Naramon’s passive for combo counter decay is furthering that boost. Sure, Blood Rush and Maiming Strike were certainly huge boosts to melee’s predominant force, but I always felt that the aim to keep a sustained combo counter was what really changed melee to what it is today.

Imho, if anything were to be nerfed it would be Blood Rush and not necessarily Maiming Strike. Blood Rush’s calculations are at +165% crit rate that stacks on combo multiplier. Doesn’t anyone feel that that’s somewhat high? I digress, obviously, because we have several contenders here that feel that Maiming Strike’s flat crit chance of +90% is high as well.

Addendum: Call me old, but I still remember how people complained about how Volt would speedrun kill Jackal with a Boltor Prime and Glaive before anyone could do anything when farming Rhino was a thing, where farming for a frame part took about 20-40 runs total. So, yeah. The methods for killing may change, but the ideal of efficient killing and the quicker grind will never change. But as always, haters will still continue to hate.

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
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1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

You're implying that I'm okay with that double standard. A lot of other things that trivialize the game have got to go, but right now the biggest one is how maiming strike is being buffed by blood rush.

And yes, the math is roughly the same as chroma's vex armor bug. Maiming strike shouldn't be getting buffed 165% by blood rush for every combo multiplier. That sends the critical chance skyrocketing that no other weapon can reach. As such, the damage of weapons with high reach and/or base crit chance (ex. atterax, scoliac and some polearms) achieve damage numbers far beyond anything else in the game. The same happened with chroma's vex armor by buffing the damage of weapons after additive damage bonus calculations.

If maiming strike's 90% crit chance was added after blood rush's math, there would be no problem whatsoever. Nothing needs to be nerfed, whips and polearms don't need their range reduced, nothing.

I have stated a few time now that I dont have blood rush on mine. So your not fixing anything. There are several ways to make it work well. So go ahead, change how its done. You will still see it.

As stated, your looking at a weapon thats made for 150 level enemies, its going to shred anywhere lower then that. Its not broken. 

You just dont like that it takes all the kills like many have other stated. Thats not a reason to nerf. Its just a reason to get irritated by those people, which like limbo can be justified but not a reason to nerf. 

What needs to be said here is that as more things are added to the game, other people are going to hate you using it. Its just a matter of fact. People love hating on things. If you nerf this, something else will be hated on. 

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I had high hopes for Twirling Spire, unfortunately for me no matter how many Attack Speed boosting mods I put into a polearm with that stance it feels oddly clunky even with proper combo execution. However, Shimmering Blight or the basic polearm quick melee combo is very effective and flows fluidly with the slide spin attack. Even though I’m not in melee mode, I still enjoy polearms quick melee.

The same goes for dual dagger quick melee. Remember when Fang Prime absolutely dominated the melee meta in Damage 1.0? I still do.

It needs 1.3 attack speed via stats+ 2 stacks of Berserker to become smooth. Problem with Twirling Spire is the same as with a lot of stances, you cant actually choose which combo to use when its moveset benefits you the most due to the keybind setup and priorities, the forward combo is weaker than the quick attack while moving forward, the quick attack is not as useful as the forward combo against single target/when not moving around which means spamming the block combo (which on good stances is the most general use one or flat out the highest modifier/one with counter finisher in it) which is just average since its final/good stike knocks enemies down/ragdolls with very low strength, thus starting a ground finisher which takes a lot of time to inflict a single (strong) slash proc, but just doing a charge attack after the 4 pokes of the forward combo results in more (and multi target based on aim) slash procs.

As for fang prime, if it had 15%+ status and maybe 1.08 or 1.1 attack speed it would be a godly stats stick with CO since spinning needle is really high on multihits, has high puncture to inflict it with SNs forced impact and slash procs (the daggers 2nd charge attack should be its default tho, the x strike has a S#&$ty hitbox/detection range without auto target while the sweep 2 hit is both easier to control and cleaner as a cleave hit infront of you).

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Pizzarugi:

Refer back to my comment before yours. It's not the range that is the issue nor is it the spin attack damage. It's how maiming strike (flat 90% crit added) is being buffed by blood rush (165% per combo multiplier). Even weapons with terrible crit chance and high range can achieve high amounts of damage from those 2 mods alone.

I have rivens which guarantee red crits on slide attack for cereta and Scindo Prime, it`s anything but impressive. 

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1 hour ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

I have rivens which guarantee red crits on slide attack for cereta and Scindo Prime, it`s anything but impressive. 

Are you also using blood rush with it? According to semlar, cerata's crit slide can range anywhere between 82.6%-166.6% depending on certain conditions. I'm just going to assume a smooth 150%. Cerata has 15% base, which puts it at 165% when performing slide attacks. Now lets assume you have a maxed blood rush and your combo multiplier is 2.5x. Here's the math:

(0.15 + 1.5) x (1 + 1.65 x 2.5)
(1.65) x (1 + 4.125)
(1.65) x (5.125)
1.65 x 5.125 = 8.45625
8.45625 = 845% crit chance at 2.5x combo multiplier
(Note: No weapon can reach this much critical chance without maiming strike and blood rush)

Cerata has 2.0x crit multiplier. Assuming you're using organ shatter, that brings it up to 3.8x. We're going to round down the crit chance to 800% for the following.

3.8 x 8 = 30.4
30.4 - 7 = 23.4x crit multiplier
(To find out why 7 was subtracted, check here and scroll down to "Orange & Red Crits". I'm pretty sure this is correct.)

Cerata's base slide attack is 220 toxin. Multiply that by 2.5x using combo multiplier and you get 550 toxin damage.

550 x 23.4 = 12870 toxin damage from a slide attack.

Keep in mind this math didn't consider things like (primed) pressure point, condition overload, element mods, other riven stats, and strengths/weaknesses to enemy health types. Damage will be much higher.

EDIT:
I ran a build example of your cerata through warframe builder. It doesn't calculate slide crits from rivens the same way it does with maiming strike. I'm not sure if its bugged from the builder's side or if riven slide crits are calculated differently than maiming strike.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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Can Maiming strike kill an Eidolon? Can Maiming do anything on its own? Nope. The build is what makes it. Nerfing it wont change anything. Except kill alot of peoples fun. I don't use it, but alot of people do. If u cant hang... Go solo.

Relentless combination cando the same thing.

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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On 2/13/2018 at 1:16 PM, AweMuse said:

I've had a slight disdain when it comes to maiming strike users, and melee users who insist on just 'e' spamming to tear through mobs.
Why? (Aside from the fact I find that style of play lame and boring af)

The reason is simply because melee combos (through stances) are not rewarded well enough for the efforts involved to skillfully execute, yet the aforementioned tactics are given a near free pass for numbers that rival or even exceed the best execution a combo can offer in enemy clear and dps.

By all means, players may play how they wish and I won't S#&$ talk people for doing what they find fun (though my view on the matter still stands) - but with melee being the only weapons capable of true damage scaling [w/ the combo counter] to the obscene enemy scaling currently in place - should players be rewarded so greatly in using melee so simply?
For me the matter has never been in the numbers entirely, but the payout in playing the game with mastery in regards to its' mechanics. 
Those who play well should be rewarded.
Those who do not ... does anyone see where I'm coming from?

 

Well, people don't like timed attacks or holding x at the right time or having to look at combo list either, well, a lot of people that is. This a fast paced game wear pushing melee constantly was the standard and the game has not change to accommodate the new melee system so combos are easily messed up so the spam e meta shall forever continue until combos are simpler.

On 2/13/2018 at 1:19 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Turns out scrubs who can't see past the crouch and melee button don't want to learn how to play the game, while continuing to think they're pros because they can clear the room in one attack. Don't call them out on it though, they'll cry that you're actually being the selfish one and you want to take away their precious little playstyle.

And you know what? Fine. That abuse is what's going to get their noob toy nerfed, just like it did with Chroma's vex armor, synoid simulor, synoid gammacor and telos boltace.

Keep in mind that this "noob toy" helps a lot w/ focus farming and no forma needed on your favorite weapon too.

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On 2/5/2018 at 9:33 PM, --Dr.AbaddonicSloth said:

I just wanna run a game for some fun and an Ahole is droning around like a buzzsaw killing everything in sight. I can't even hit anything,

This is never going to change no matter how much you get nerfed.  Warframe could be made a completely different game and everyone forced to play exactly the way you want them to and someone with better gear would still run around killing everything before you could feel like you weren't trash.  So then what do we do about that?  Well.  Take away meaningful progression of course.  I think that's what Destiny did.  Let me know how fun it is to do the same damage as any random player that just started and have every enemy be a uniform bullet sponge.  Personally that game sounds like crap.

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On 2/5/2018 at 9:33 PM, --Dr.AbaddonicSloth said:

it ABSOLUTELY pisses me off when I just wanna run a game for some fun and an Ahole is droning around like a buzzsaw killing everything in sight.

Sounds like everyone w/ a Riven mod and powerful Warframes...

But the answer isn't to nerf any individual mod :)

You'll be back to *@##$ about something else powerful after this. That's a promise.

Think outside the box.

Think damage falloff.

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On 2/13/2018 at 4:48 PM, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I had high hopes for Twirling Spire, unfortunately for me no matter how many Attack Speed boosting mods I put into a polearm with that stance it feels oddly clunky even with proper combo execution. However, Shimmering Blight or the basic polearm quick melee combo is very effective and flows fluidly with the slide spin attack. Even though I’m not in melee mode, I still enjoy polearms quick melee.

The same goes for dual dagger quick melee. Remember when Fang Prime absolutely dominated the melee meta in Damage 1.0? I still do.

edit: In all honesty, though, Warframe has gone through many heaps and hurdles when it came to melee and I feel like we’re in a good spot. We’re Space Ninjas with a plethora of guns and weapons taking down hordes of enemies. That’s the basic premise of this game’s fantasy, and I’d like it to stick this way. 

Melee bumped up into a pretty big level ever since the Shadow Debt mods premiered. Body Count (also Drifting Contact as a nightmare mod) shifted the playing field, Venka Prime’s x1.75 combo counter rate, and now Naramon’s passive for combo counter decay is furthering that boost. Sure, Blood Rush and Maiming Strike were certainly huge boosts to melee’s predominant force, but I always felt that the aim to keep a sustained combo counter was what really changed melee to what it is today.

Imho, if anything were to be nerfed it would be Blood Rush and not necessarily Maiming Strike. Blood Rush’s calculations are at +165% crit rate that stacks on combo multiplier. Doesn’t anyone feel that that’s somewhat high? I digress, obviously, because we have several contenders here that feel that Maiming Strike’s flat crit chance of +90% is high as well.

Addendum: Call me old, but I still remember how people complained about how Volt would speedrun kill Jackal with a Boltor Prime and Glaive before anyone could do anything when farming Rhino was a thing, where farming for a frame part took about 20-40 runs total. So, yeah. The methods for killing may change, but the ideal of efficient killing and the quicker grind will never change. But as always, haters will still continue to hate.

NOTE:  I'll look at cleaning this up after I'm not using a cellphone to reply.  Also, some of this is more for general Thread consumption, rather than directed at any one person here.

The first rule of Fang Club is that you do not talk about Fang Club.  The second rule of Fang Club is that you do not talk about Fang Club!

Seriously though, I miss using my Fang Primes.  The reason melee weapons weren't part of the weapons rework is most likely because of many layers of BS DE has to wade through in order to make some of them ever see the light of day again.  Dual Daggers have no attraction to them at all (outside of Okina cosplay reasoning), and they're not the only class of weapons dominated by turds.

In fact, whips really tend to suck too, thanks to piss-poor stances.  Take away all slide attack options from the game and how often would you see a Lecta or an Atterax?

If anything, melee weapons represent WEEKS of animation work, range adjustment, hitbox analysis, AND numbers adjustments.

Hopefully we see a clearer set of outlined objectives for the melee overhaul somewhat soonish.  I'm not going to sweat Maiming Strike or whatnot, just so long as I'm not seeing my melee kill times spike back sky-high (like in the bad old days, when melee was only there for the look of it).

Slide attacks offer certain benefits, but to me the greatest is that you gain significant mobility to a strike, moving WHILE hitting.  I love them for an initiator to follow-up combo attacks, or as a way to cut off (literally) a fleeing foe.

Rather than complaining about this "spin-2-win meta", I'd love to hear people coming up with suggestions on how to improve melee combos on weapons where slide attacks are most often built for to the exclusion of all else.  Increasing the effectiveness of alternatives can often help to fix problems like we see with this unimaginative "beyblading".

To be honest, anyone who cannot outkill a Sliderax strategy with ranged weapons needs to aim*.  We have MORE than enough ways to SLAUGHTER EVERYTHING before it comes into whip range, and it's high-time people start using them.  If nothing else, you can force the beyblader to work for it, and there is little more satisfying in Warframe than hearing someone with a slide Atterax complaining that I'm "hogging all teh killz"!

*If someone is beyblading so hard and fast that you never even see the enemies, then tough.  They'd do the same with 'Frame powers or AoE weapons just the same, provided they're half-decent with movement and aiming.  Trying to nerf all the AoE and 'Frame powers to compensate for someone who cannot even keep up would do DRAMATICALLY more harm to Warframe than good.

Edited by Cytobel
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On 2/13/2018 at 4:43 PM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

So basically... Yall want to send melee back to where it was in the old days? It was crap back then. 

Where does wanting whip range/Maiming Strike change equal the same thing as removing combos and stances? Hyperbole much?

Melee is very strong, but comes with drawbacks like range and increased damage taken. Spin2Win eliminates those drawbacks by (a) massive AOE and (b) fast movement to avoid enemy shots (or just kill them before they get a chance to shoot). Add the fact that Spin2Win easily makes the rest of the squad redundant (in a multiplayer game), and you can see why people want it changed.

Not accusing you of this, but it seems the most ardent defenders are the people with 70%+ melee usage and 50k+ kills on a whip/polearm, who insist on playing Beyblade Simulator every match. Why can't those people play solo instead of imposing their playstyle on others? That's like taking a Ferrari to a Miata race series and insisting that all the Miatas leave because they can't compete anymore at that level. No, go to your own series, stop ruining ours.

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Slightly off-topic, can we all agree that we shouldn’t regress back to Parkour 1.0 with the Stamina bar? I’m honestly getting this inkling feeling that those that are vouching for cooldowns haven’t felt the dread and loathing that came with the stamina feature that was in Warframe back then. And even during that unfortunate time in Warframe’s melee history, people complained about coptering whether it propelled you forward so hard you glitched past the map or that it was a tool used for speedrunning that ruined co-op fun.

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2 hours ago, Magneu said:

Where does wanting whip range/Maiming Strike change equal the same thing as removing combos and stances? Hyperbole much?

Melee is very strong, but comes with drawbacks like range and increased damage taken. Spin2Win eliminates those drawbacks by (a) massive AOE and (b) fast movement to avoid enemy shots (or just kill them before they get a chance to shoot). Add the fact that Spin2Win easily makes the rest of the squad redundant (in a multiplayer game), and you can see why people want it changed.

Not accusing you of this, but it seems the most ardent defenders are the people with 70%+ melee usage and 50k+ kills on a whip/polearm, who insist on playing Beyblade Simulator every match. Why can't those people play solo instead of imposing their playstyle on others? That's like taking a Ferrari to a Miata race series and insisting that all the Miatas leave because they can't compete anymore at that level. No, go to your own series, stop ruining ours.

Used Maim Strike on Aterax on hydron w/ Mirage...or maybe it was Scoliac, either way it was disappointing...

Maim Strike and range definitely not the issue.

Was for Focus too, ah well.

Was a Void Fissure as well.

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TL;DR: cap melee range

I personally don't notice spin-to-win melee ruining my missions, but I hear enough people complaining that it seems like it's a genuine problem for them. Melee does enough damage to trivialize killing any enemies even without Maiming Strike, so I think the issue is really range and not damage. Even if your melee can one-shot every enemy, you're not going to dominate a mission unless you have very high range, because you still have to actually hit the enemies with your weapon. So, I think a melee range cap would solve the problem of ruining others' fun, and it would also make sense because it is frankly absurd for melee weapons to have a 20 meter range. They are MELEE weapons after all.

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On 2/13/2018 at 5:22 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

You've got it backwards. There are four people in a squad. And when one of them plays that way, the other three don't have a choice. That is selfish. People who just want to participate are not selfish for asking you not to break the game.

It is selfish for a singular person to play in a way that they find most fun?  Why?  For what reason should 3 people outweigh the 1?  The majority isn't always right, and to be honest, I have seen far less people argue against Maiming strike than those arguing forit.  So clearly, this isn't a matter of public appeal.

This is why we don't rely on subjective reasoning for creating these "squad enjoyment" patches.  They are ill suited in their thought process and harmful to the game.

Let alone the fact that AOE abilities are an absolute necessity if a horde game. If you don't have them, clearing fodder so you can pick out that corrupted bombard or tusk bombard that's ripping your squad to shreds becomes much more difficult. The only reason you, and others are complaining is that you're unhappy when it comes to lower level content and as far as I am concerned, if someone has a weapon meant to combat a level 100 corrupted bombard, why should it not be effective at slaughtering low level fodder?

Unless you're trying to create a Destiny type game where high level weapons don't matter at any point in the game (don't do this) the whole "I don't like it because I don' get as many kills." is a terrible argument.  This is besides the fact that when I am "abusing" slide attacks, my squad mates are very competitive.

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giphy.gif

 

I  don't use Maiming Strike because it bored me when I tried it. Quite efficient, but boring since it locked me to a single attack.

I don't care if it's nerfed or left the same way it is. I'm just here to read the flame war.

 

 

Edited by Jarriaga
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11 hours ago, Magneu said:

Where does wanting whip range/Maiming Strike change equal the same thing as removing combos and stances? Hyperbole much?

Melee is very strong, but comes with drawbacks like range and increased damage taken. Spin2Win eliminates those drawbacks by (a) massive AOE and (b) fast movement to avoid enemy shots (or just kill them before they get a chance to shoot). Add the fact that Spin2Win easily makes the rest of the squad redundant (in a multiplayer game), and you can see why people want it changed.

Not accusing you of this, but it seems the most ardent defenders are the people with 70%+ melee usage and 50k+ kills on a whip/polearm, who insist on playing Beyblade Simulator every match. Why can't those people play solo instead of imposing their playstyle on others? That's like taking a Ferrari to a Miata race series and insisting that all the Miatas leave because they can't compete anymore at that level. No, go to your own series, stop ruining ours.

Nerfing prime reach will nerf everything not whips. Heavy blades/hammers... Fragor with no prime reach is crap. Nikana's, swords, every melee out there benefits from it. Theres like a handful of whips in this whole game. Nerfing reach modifiers across the board isnt the answer.

Also, i dont use whips. I use polearms, staves, dual swords, hammers, heavy blades, one handed swords, nikanas, sparring, claws... Lacera, jat kusar... No Maiming strike. I do use primed reach however... 

Nerfing Maiming strike? Watever idc... Nerfing primed reach? Ya i disagree

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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On 2/5/2018 at 6:33 PM, --Dr.AbaddonicSloth said:

Atterax, Lecta, Scoliac, polearms and staves

My random suggestion: give those weapons Marth-styled sweetspots and sourspots. And if that nerf is too harsh, make it only apply to crits or only to slide attacks (or only to crit slide attacks) or something

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1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

My random suggestion: give those weapons Marth-styled sweetspots and sourspots. And if that nerf is too harsh, make it only apply to crits or only to slide attacks (or only to crit slide attacks) or something

No sweet spots/sour spots for a specific weapon type.  Keep in mind how horrible whips were back in the day... The same way that machetes suck now. U cant give specific weapon types a hard nerf just because u dont use them. 

Also keepin in mind that the most popular weapon types right now are polearms.. Guandao, cassowar, orthos..

And the meta is condition overload setups...

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5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I have nothing against whips, I was just bouncing an idea around

Too difficult to control the sweet and sour spots in such a mobile game, aprticularly since you are looking at your character from behind.

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