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When the hell is Meme Strike being nerf'd? I'm getting so sick of it, it literally is worse than Ember.


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I'm amused by those trying to defend this broken combo by saying it was designed for enemies level 120+. Not even trials go to 120+, and DE generally doesn't recognize anything with levels past 100 to be anything more than endurance runs in endless missions. Look at the eidolon trio, they go up to level 60! The Jordas Verdict only hits 88, and sortie 3 and kuva floods cap at 100. They're not intentionally making weapons and warframes designed to be used for level 120-150+ content, because that content doesn't actually exist. As a rule, you don't make weapons and gear for higher levels unless there's a higher level to speak of. Endurance runs to fight 150+ level enemies is not a higher level, that's a personal achievement you set out for yourself (or you're a very determined farmer).

You know what we call content that is outperforming difficulty they were designed for? Overpowered, or broken depending on how overpowered it is. Maiming strike and blood rush combo is broken, grossly outperforms everything, and trivializes content. Not even a plague kripath crit-focused zaw polearm with condition overload using only standard attacks can clear enemies faster than a mere MR2 spin2win max range atterax, but if you gave that same zaw the same build the atterax is using, that whip will be worthless by comparison. It's not the whip that is broken nor is it the zaw, it's the mods used.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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26 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'm amused by those trying to defend this broken combo by saying it was designed for enemies level 120+. Not even trials go to 120+, and DE generally doesn't recognize anything with levels past 100 to be anything more than endurance runs in endless missions. Look at the eidolon trio, they go up to level 60! The Jordas Verdict only hits 88, and sortie 3 and kuva floods cap at 100. They're not intentionally making weapons and warframes designed to be used for level 120-150+ content, because that content doesn't actually exist. As a rule, you don't make weapons and gear for higher levels unless there's a higher level to speak of. Endurance runs to fight 150+ level enemies is not a higher level, that's a personal achievement you set out for yourself (or you're a very determined farmer).

You know what we call content that is outperforming difficulty they were designed for? Overpowered, or broken depending on how overpowered it is. Maiming strike and blood rush combo is broken, grossly outperforms everything, and trivializes content. Not even a plague kripath crit-focused zaw polearm with condition overload using only standard attacks can clear enemies faster than a mere MR2 spin2win max range atterax, but if you gave that same zaw the same build the atterax is using, that whip will be worthless by comparison. It's not the whip that is broken nor is it the zaw, it's the mods used.

Bottom line... Nerfing range mods is a mistake.

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Bottom line... Nerfing range mods is a mistake.

Exactly. It's not the range that is making these weapons broken, its the power from the other mods. Even if you had the range to hit a whole room of enemies (ex. Wukong's old 4), it won't mean anything if it still takes you 30+ hits to kill them all or unless your status chance is high enough to stunlock enemies with impact or blast, but that's a different discussion entirely.

And I'll go ahead and say this again: It's not the polearms or whips by themselves that are broken. Its the mods you use on them that makes them broken. Maiming strike and blood rush are great on the atterax and polearms, because they have high base range, which is crucial to clear rooms in 1-2 slide attacks. By tweaking how blood rush's math works with maiming strike (not nerfing them directly), you can keep the range right where they are, not nerf whips and polearms, and prevent slide attacks from being broken.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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9 hours ago, dudefaceguy said:

TL;DR: damage falloff melee range

I personally don't notice spin-to-win melee ruining my missions, but I hear enough people complaining that it seems like it's a genuine problem for them. Melee does enough damage to trivialize killing any enemies even without Maiming Strike, so I think the issue is really range and not damage. Even if your melee can one-shot every enemy, you're not going to dominate a mission unless you have very high range, because you still have to actually hit the enemies with your weapon. So, I think a melee range damage falloff would solve the problem of ruining others' fun, and it would also make sense because it is frankly absurd for melee weapons to have a 20 meter range. They are MELEE weapons after all.

:D

Edited for clarity...

Dam gets lower at "absurd" range.

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1 hour ago, thalion987 said:

If you nerf something another thing will take its place. So this is a pointless and endless circle. Because of these kind of threads DE will nerf until nothing fun is left.

Ah, sensationalism. Classic.

In any case, horrible logic. The discrepancy between current Maiming Strike and the next powerful tier of melee in mission is huge. The thing that "replaces" Maiming Strike with massive range may be the new "most effective", but it'll be far from as powerful.

Also, slippery slope fallacy, yo.

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Fixing the math on Maiming is fine, but to group Maiming and reach as a singular problem is moronic.

It's a combo. Whips without Maiming as is calculated now (and by extension, that mechanic on rivens) would deal wide AOE, but lack the damage numbers they have now. Whips without Primed Reach would be able to deal high damage, but in a smaller AOE, thereby removing/lessening the ability for a single player to clean rooms in a second.

If either was changed, the problem would be much less severe.

Edited by Magneu
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Melee weapons don't need maiming strike to one-shot anything up to and above sortie levels.

Why are we still arguing about an event mod that doesn't even change anything if you're already oneshotting everything? If your answer is "But I need it to oneshot everything!" then you should reconsider your builds. Maiming strike was never needed for Melee to be OP, neither was Blood rush or condition overload, all those did was make it possible to make more melee weapons OP.

At which point do we stop arguing about how much we can overkill enemies?

 

You want to nerf maiming strike? Start by nerfing melee damage across the board so melee weapons don't massively outdamage guns (without maiming strike, obviously)

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39 minutes ago, Magneu said:

It's a combo. Whips without Maiming as is calculated now (and by extension, that mechanic on rivens) would deal wide AOE, but lack the damage numbers they have now. Whips without Primed Reach would be able to deal high damage, but in a smaller AOE, thereby removing/lessening the ability for a single player to clean rooms in a second.

If either was changed, the problem would be much less severe.

Yet neither needs to be nerfed nor whip range :)

Damage fall off need be applied.

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1 hour ago, PrivateRiem said:

Melee weapons don't need maiming strike to one-shot anything up to and above sortie levels.

Why are we still arguing about an event mod that doesn't even change anything if you're already oneshotting everything? If your answer is "But I need it to oneshot everything!" then you should reconsider your builds. Maiming strike was never needed for Melee to be OP, neither was Blood rush or condition overload, all those did was make it possible to make more melee weapons OP.

At which point do we stop arguing about how much we can overkill enemies?

 

You want to nerf maiming strike? Start by nerfing melee damage across the board so melee weapons don't massively outdamage guns (without maiming strike, obviously)

I would like to see a whip OHKO sortie enemies with slide attacks without Maiming. Or, even killing in respectable amounts of time.

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6 hours ago, Aegni said:

For what reason should 3 people outweigh the 1?

Says the person calling others selfish.

Placing your own interests before not just one other person but multiple other people fits the definition of 'selfish' perfectly. The other three hypothetical players aren't playing in a way that stops anyone else from participating. Three people enjoying a game is better for the long term health of the game than one person enjoying it. That's why. Accommodating more people is better for a healthy and prosperous society in any context than accommodating fewer people.

7 hours ago, Aegni said:

I have seen far less people argue against Maiming strike than those arguing forit.  So clearly, this isn't a matter of public appeal.

This is why we don't rely on subjective reasoning for creating these "squad enjoyment" patches.  They are ill suited in their thought process and harmful to the game.

Then you haven't been paying attention, and you're mistaken. But the bottom line is this: if your behaviour is disruptive, then you are responsible for mitigating that disruption. So everyone who says "don't play public if you don't like it" understands, that means you stay out of public areas when engaging in disruptive behaviour, not other people. And in terms of game design, it is healthy to minimize opportunities for disruption. Because anecdotes are mere examples, but good design principles are another matter.

You said yourself that one person shouldn't get to decide how another plays. If your playstyle is disruptive, then you are deciding how (or if) others are allowed to play when you use it. By that principle alone, regardless of how many are harmed, the potential for harm is the problem, from a design perspective. Then the question becomes whether the disruption is part of normal operation. In the case of something like Limbo, for example, the answer is no. When used responsibly, Limbo is not especially disruptive. But for Maiming Strike and Blood Rush combos on high range weapons, the answer is yes. When used as designed, that is disruptive. It's a problem.

7 hours ago, Aegni said:

Let alone the fact that AOE abilities are an absolute necessity if a horde game.

I don't see anyone claiming that AoE attacks should be removed from the game. I use a Zarr. But a Zarr doesn't get 600% crit chance or 80-100x multipliers (or higher), or do 50k+ damage with viral and slash procs in a 15-20 meter radius multiple times per second.

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1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Says the person calling others selfish.

Placing your own interests before not just one other person but multiple other people fits the definition of 'selfish' perfectly. The other three hypothetical players aren't playing in a way that stops anyone else from participating. Three people enjoying a game is better for the long term health of the game than one person enjoying it. That's why. Accommodating more people is better for a healthy and prosperous society in any context than accommodating fewer people.

Then you haven't been paying attention, and you're mistaken. But the bottom line is this: if your behaviour is disruptive, then you are responsible for mitigating that disruption. So everyone who says "don't play public if you don't like it" understands, that means you stay out of public areas when engaging in disruptive behaviour, not other people. And in terms of game design, it is healthy to minimize opportunities for disruption. Because anecdotes are mere examples, but good design principles are another matter.

You said yourself that one person shouldn't get to decide how another plays. If your playstyle is disruptive, then you are deciding how (or if) others are allowed to play when you use it. By that principle alone, regardless of how many are harmed, the potential for harm is the problem, from a design perspective. Then the question becomes whether the disruption is part of normal operation. In the case of something like Limbo, for example, the answer is no. When used responsibly, Limbo is not especially disruptive. But for Maiming Strike and Blood Rush combos on high range weapons, the answer is yes. When used as designed, that is disruptive. It's a problem.

I don't see anyone claiming that AoE attacks should be removed from the game. I use a Zarr. But a Zarr doesn't get 600% crit chance or 80-100x multipliers (or higher), or do 50k+ damage with viral and slash procs in a 15-20 meter radius multiple times per second.

We need higher lvl content, not the nerf hammer.

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4 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'm amused by those trying to defend this broken combo by saying it was designed for enemies level 120+. Not even trials go to 120+, and DE generally doesn't recognize anything with levels past 100 to be anything more than endurance runs in endless missions. Look at the eidolon trio, they go up to level 60! The Jordas Verdict only hits 88, and sortie 3 and kuva floods cap at 100. They're not intentionally making weapons and warframes designed to be used for level 120-150+ content, because that content doesn't actually exist. As a rule, you don't make weapons and gear for higher levels unless there's a higher level to speak of. Endurance runs to fight 150+ level enemies is not a higher level, that's a personal achievement you set out for yourself (or you're a very determined farmer).

You know what we call content that is outperforming difficulty they were designed for? Overpowered, or broken depending on how overpowered it is. Maiming strike and blood rush combo is broken, grossly outperforms everything, and trivializes content. Not even a plague kripath crit-focused zaw polearm with condition overload using only standard attacks can clear enemies faster than a mere MR2 spin2win max range atterax, but if you gave that same zaw the same build the atterax is using, that whip will be worthless by comparison. It's not the whip that is broken nor is it the zaw, it's the mods used.

You do understand that levels on Mot, Orokin Void are deceiving and have multipliers instated on the enemies correct? Even if the levels are shown that they are below Sortie content, they are actually outperforming their intended levels, damage output, and armor scaling.

The same could have been said for Raids and the same for the Eidolons. 

Using enemy levels as a baseline for enemy difficulty is a valid argument, but we should not forget the fact that certain tilesets and enemies have certain multipliers in play that enhance their difficulty above certain expected damage outputs, eHP, and scaling.

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2 hours ago, Magneu said:

I would like to see a whip OHKO sortie enemies with slide attacks without Maiming. Or, even killing in respectable amounts of time.

Find someone w/ a Whip Riven or perhaps any other popular mod :D

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59 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

We need higher lvl content, not the nerf hammer.

Higher level content without balance will only cause the relatively few OP weapons and tactics still remaining to dominate even more, and possibly even to become required. So I have to say, on the contrary, we need balance and variety, not one-dimensional power creep on both sides.

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4 hours ago, PrivateRiem said:

Melee weapons don't need maiming strike to one-shot anything up to and above sortie levels.

Can confirm. I have a Sigma & Octantis with CO, BR, and Viral damage...and I can easily trivialize even Sortie content with spin attacks.

No Rivens equipped and no Maiming Strike, Heck, I don't even own Maiming Strike.

Maiming Strike isn't the real culprit here. Rather, I'd argue that it's the innate, massive damage bonuses granted by spin attacks and the fact you can easily spam them. Maiming Strike along with other mods and such merely amplify the problem.

Quote

You know what we call content that is outperforming difficulty they were designed for? Overpowered, or broken depending on how overpowered it is. Maiming strike and blood rush combo is broken, grossly outperforms everything, and trivializes content.

While that is a very powerful combo and is quite capable of doing what you claim, there are arguably worse things...see above.

That said, I largely agree with your point, but I feel that certain mods only serve to throw the problematic nature of spin attacks into sharp relief.

1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

We need higher lvl content, not the nerf hammer.

And then the try-hards will whine for even more power to try and overcome that even higher level content. Shampoo, rinse and repeat. 

I know EXACTLY how this works and plays out and it never ends well.

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5 hours ago, Sorise said:

:D

Edited for clarity...

Dam gets lower at "absurd" range.

Yeah, that's a better idea. It would have to be pretty large falloff to make a difference though. But again, I don't really notice Maiming Strike as a problem, so anything is fine with me.

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I have never really felt the need to use the WF-forums but the atterax-slide-attack spam is just getting to annoying for me, yet again. So I my recent annoyance with spin2win and my lack of self-restrained due to tiredness results in this "rant". Sorry in advance for prossibly broken english.

 

We had the same problem quite a while ago already, back then it was a the Telos-Boltace that got slide attack spammed by a lot of people and DE ended up changing the special mechanic of the Telos-Boltace. (No tears shed by me.) These builds are not really a new idea, just a new iteration of the same monotonous, cheesy play-style.

But I feel that just nerfing the atterax, melee-range-mods or maiming strike alone will not solve the problem, since spin2win-builds are just all the cheese you can have on your melee-weapon condensed into one build. The spamming of the slide-attack, ridiculously high range on melee-weapons with high base-range and slash-procs being exceptionally good for snowballing with melees.

 

The easiest fix to stop people from spamming spin-attacks, would be to put them on a set cooldown but I feel that this would not really feel all that great during actual play. It would probably be better if the dmg of the spin-attacks were tied to the speed at which they are performed in combination with a loss of momentum, so maxing your spins dmg would require you to build up momentum again before you reuse it. This way Maiming Strike can remain as it is, since by itself the mod isn't really broken.

The obscene range on weapons like the Orthos Prime etc. has always puzzled me. It looks really stupid to me when npcs die, even though seemingly nothing has hit them. Changing the range mods from +X%range-values to +Xmeters-values would probably be the most logical sollution. Perhaps also adjusting the value based on the weapon type the mod is used on, so daggers won't suddenly become 3 to 4 meters in length.

Slash-procs being, by comparison, far more useful than any of the other procs you can get on melees, mostly comes from all the mods that effect or are effected by your combo counter. And a setup that focuses primarily on this aspect alone, generally doesn't negatively effect others people enjoyment of the game. It only becomes boring for the rest of the team when paired with excessive range (and spin attacks).

Edited by Gedrot
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3 hours ago, Magneu said:

I would like to see a whip OHKO sortie enemies with slide attacks without Maiming. Or, even killing in respectable amounts of time.

you just build a hybrid build with additional reach or do a better hybrid build without that reach. here's an example: https://goo.gl/Xkwxe5

roughly 1-3 hits should be enough to proc 1-2 status effects, add that to your artax cold proc and you are golden. naramon with power spike to keep up the combo counter. viral+slash is also great.

Edited by ego-nihilist
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38 minutes ago, Gedrot said:

The obscene range on weapons like the Orthos Prime etc. has always puzzled me. It looks really stupid to me when npcs die, even though seemingly nothing has hit them. Changing the range mods from +X%range-values to +Xmeters-values would probably be the most logical sollution. Perhaps also adjusting the value based on the weapon type the mod is used on, so daggers won't suddenly become 3 to 4 meters in length.

The most logical solution would be to add the lack of visual reach is missing so it solves your issue.

Although all your idea does is make Reach undesirable.

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I ran a sortie today as wellas 3 floods with my dark split sword(carving mantis)

Prime pressure

Prime reach

Glad finnese

Glad might

Glad vice

Prime fury

Virulent scourge

Voltaic strike

I was literally destroying everything.... Didn't slide attk much... My attk speed was 2.04 and i was melting everything like it was butter.

Keep in mind, dark split sword has terrible range, primed reach just helps it be mediocre....

 

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17 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Says the person calling others selfish.

It is selfish to demand someone stop playing a certain way because YOU do not enjoy it.   Sorry man, but the majority isn't always right and regarding maiming strike, it is only a minority that really complains about it.

17 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Placing your own interests before not just one other person but multiple other people fits the definition of 'selfish' perfectly. The other three hypothetical players aren't playing in a way that stops anyone else from participating. Three people enjoying a game is better for the long term health of the game than one person enjoying it. That's why. Accommodating more people is better for a healthy and prosperous society in any context than accommodating fewer people.

Except for the fact that slide atacking with a whip in no way inhibits the others from playing.  Just as using Equinox Maim, Ember's  WOF (pre-nerf), Bansee's resonating quake...Ignis...Frost Avalanche etc etc.

They don't stop the other players from assisting in the completion of the mission in any relevant content. The only content in which there is an issue is low level because enemies scale multiplicatively along with weaponry. Hence, why there is a disparity in damage early on

17 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Then you haven't been paying attention, and you're mistaken. But the bottom line is this: if your behaviour is disruptive, then you are responsible for mitigating that disruption. So everyone who says "don't play public if you don't like it" understands, that means you stay out of public areas when engaging in disruptive behaviour, not other people. And in terms of game design, it is healthy to minimize opportunities for disruption. Because anecdotes are mere examples, but good design principles are another matter.

You said yourself that one person shouldn't get to decide how another plays. If your playstyle is disruptive, then you are deciding how (or if) others are allowed to play when you use it. By that principle alone, regardless of how many are harmed, the potential for harm is the problem, from a design perspective. Then the question becomes whether the disruption is part of normal operation. In the case of something like Limbo, for example, the answer is no. When used responsibly, Limbo is not especially disruptive. But for Maiming Strike and Blood Rush combos on high range weapons, the answer is yes. When used as designed, that is disruptive. It's a problem.

I don't see anyone claiming that AoE attacks should be removed from the game. I use a Zarr. But a Zarr doesn't get 600% crit chance or 80-100x multipliers (or higher), or do 50k+ damage with viral and slash procs in a 15-20 meter radius multiple times per second.

Seriously...this friggin forum has deleted my post like 5 times now and it is infuriating. Anyway let's see if I can complete it this time.. 

First of all we should never look at the "potential" possibility for there to be a problem. For example, new players in league of legends always struggle against champions such as yasuo and Nasus because they lack the experience necessary to know how to strategize against such champions.  Is this a problem?  No. rimarily because the "potential" is an immeasurable matter.  This is ignoring the fact that you completely contradict yourself regarding the matter  of Limbo.  When used responsibly... pardon but if we are talking about the POTENTIAL of disruptive gameplay then it warrants completely redesigning him, and Frost. Why?

Potentially...Limbo can make it impossible to capture a target and lock the game for hours.

Potentially, Frost can disrupt gameplay by block shots.

Maiming strike doesn't even come close to these two because

1. It doesn't prevent other players from playing the game.

2. It  is relevant only to low level content. Remember, enemies scale multiplicatively and so do weapons. Which means in cases such as index your maiming strike build isn't going to stop anyone from killing the enemies there; not that it ever did; but its strength is significantly reduced due to the behavior of enemy scaling.

3. No one, not even you, has demonstrated in what way it is disruptive. The most it comes down to is "the person using this gets a lot of kills and I don't like it."  So...what?  It is like complaining that someone playing Ember did the most damage in the game. She is designed to deal constant damage in an AOE. I would be concerned if this didn't lead to high damage numbers because then it suggests she does not fulfill her goal.  Shall we complain about Frost and Gara being damn near mandatory for any high level defense missions? How about complaining about Ignis crushing low level content in a 20m AOE cone?

 

I have no issues with maiming strike builds because there is no issue. Just like with Ember.  No one is being prevented from playing the game, and the only areas where its considered a problem is in content that has no relevance in terms of enemy scaling. The solution would be to provide high level players stronger content to play. If you force weapons to scale based on enemy level, you get a Destiny/Destiny 2 variant and that will kill player retention and is objectively, bad game design.

 

tl;dr:  Maiming strike isn't an issue because there is no objective measurement that demonstrates this fact.  Unhappy players also are more talkative than happy ones...so...no...it isn't a lack of listening though I certainly appreciate the attempt to suggest  a lot more people have issues with maiming strike than there really are.

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