Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited Part 2


[DE]Connor

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

Are you assuming its bad? Or hypothesizing its bad? Either way you should just "wait and see." What happens when they see you complain and then you get something worse then this?

What happens when you make the wrong call? Right now is a game of chance, DE already rolled the dice, we'll soon know the outcome.

This is not wait and see. as an example the damage 2.5 changes were announced some time ago. It was apparent that the changes were not actually tested by hardcore players that play the game. Examples:

Impact can knock down or ragdoll enemies - across the map. This is no good because it delays or prevents killing an enemy who may have to be chased across the map.

Puncture would minimize enemy lethality - Impact is immediately better because a knocked down enemy has 0 lethality whereas high level enemies still melt you so this is useless.

Slash would now be based off of slash weapon damage - so this breaks hunter munitions, one of the best new mods that has given new life to crit based weapons and made new builds possible.

Ember is pretty much a one trick pony. She only does one thing well. It is more a struggle to take her into later content where almost every frame can play it better. The community wants a better, more active and engaging ember, but these changes do not move in the right direction for that.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was thinking about the fireblast change toady, and have some more thoughts.  

The ring boosting bullet damage with heat is something I could enjoy, let's call it "playing the ring".  Used in defense or at choke points your personal or the team's damage output with accelerant would be great.  It's just not complete without a damage mitigation somewhere.  I think of it like this.  If you're adding this to the ring then I'm going to want to take full advantage of it.  Doing so will force me to remain inside or around the outside of the ring.  This would limit my ability to dodge and make me a "fish in a "barrel".  This type of confined movement combined with the current plan for WoF will allow all enemies outside of that reduced range full freedom to blast me down. And what are we expecting here?  ~10m?  ~8m range for the border of WoF?  That is going to be almost all of the enemies.  Just shooting ya, not really worried about the crazy strong fire pillars.  If you were to implement "shattershield", "overheat" or a weaker version, I would find that comprehensive as it would facilitate that style of "playing the ring".  That's just one perspective and one scenario.  I have a few others that are all situations I've encountered sooo many times.  They seem like they would all be helped by an overheat type thing being in her kit somewhere. haha

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, jiminatorx said:

This is not wait and see. as an example the damage 2.5 changes were announced some time ago. It was apparent that the changes were not actually tested by hardcore players that play the game. Examples:

Impact can knock down or ragdoll enemies - across the map. This is no good because it delays or prevents killing an enemy who may have to be chased across the map.

Puncture would minimize enemy lethality - Impact is immediately better because a knocked down enemy has 0 lethality whereas high level enemies still melt you so this is useless.

Slash would now be based off of slash weapon damage - so this breaks hunter munitions, one of the best new mods that has given new life to crit based weapons and made new builds possible.

Ember is pretty much a one trick pony. She only does one thing well. It is more a struggle to take her into later content where almost every frame can play it better. The community wants a better, more active and engaging ember, but these changes do not move in the right direction for that.


 

We have ragdoll effects so we know how bad it is.

Puncture functions pretty much the same way already and we all know it would have been better if it maybe got more than one enemy.

I have no comment on slash as i didn't get to try the changes.

 

 

Ember's biggest problem right now is still fire damage. Its just too weak. Compared to literally every other element except maybe magnetic. Works great on infested

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, ApocalypticFlameFury said:

So......will Chroma's Vex Aura apply to your own Companions and Sentinels as well??? Hmmm....it would be nice if it does

it would honestly be nice if ALL self buffs in general, applied to Sentinel's, because no matter how much hp/shield/armor you add, they're always going to be squishy af, even the primes and high base hp ones.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, jiminatorx said:

This is not wait and see. as an example the damage 2.5 changes were announced some time ago. It was apparent that the changes were not actually tested by hardcore players that play the game. Examples:

Impact can knock down or ragdoll enemies - across the map. This is no good because it delays or prevents killing an enemy who may have to be chased across the map.

Puncture would minimize enemy lethality - Impact is immediately better because a knocked down enemy has 0 lethality whereas high level enemies still melt you so this is useless.

Slash would now be based off of slash weapon damage - so this breaks hunter munitions, one of the best new mods that has given new life to crit based weapons and made new builds possible.

Ember is pretty much a one trick pony. She only does one thing well. It is more a struggle to take her into later content where almost every frame can play it better. The community wants a better, more active and engaging ember, but these changes do not move in the right direction for that.

 

 

 

This is what worries me about all these "Ember changes" the most.

It feels like they are grasping at straws instead of looking at the underlying issues or even worse, they're not willing to listen to the playerbase at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

The ring boosting bullet damage with heat is something I could enjoy, let's call it "playing the ring".  Used in defense or at choke points your personal or the team's damage output with accelerant would be great.  It's just not complete without a damage mitigation somewhere.

Why not follow in the same vein as Frost's Snowglobe and Volt's Electric Shield and make it so that Ember's Fire Blast ring stops incoming damage?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Almagnus1 said:

Why not follow in the same vein as Frost's Snowglobe and Volt's Electric Shield and make it so that Ember's Fire Blast ring stops incoming damage?

People are asking for that. A LOT

And in all honesty, when you look at FireBlast it seriously does look like it has that kind of functionality.

Why not just implement that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

En 7/2/2018 a las 16:30, [DE]Connor dijo:

BANSHEE:

  • Although still a singular cast allowing free movement, Resonating Quake will only hit enemies once as it expands outward, dealing a mass of damage at once.

So what about the CC? I mostly use the quake as a CC, and with this one-hit-only I wonder what will happen with the CC that the constant ticks from Quake is doing now

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Rekkou said:

Doesn't this basically turn resonating quake into radial sonic boom? Also "once" is basically the opposite concept of "resonating" or "quake" which is repetition. 

From what I understand, it does the entire augment's worth of damage at once, meaning it becomes a huge burst of damage tool instead of channel for mass DPS

Could also argue that maybe once the sound wave hits them, it resonates on *them* instead of the environment explaining why it does all that damage at once :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/7/2018 at 8:37 AM, lookinerator said:

Ember still needs some survivability.

Overheat anyone?

+1

Remove Fireball and add Overheat, make sure it doesn't scale with Power Strength and she will be fixed.

Adding damage to Fireball doesn't change much, with some AOE, she's still a twig in sorties.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Ssekys said:

From what I understand, it does the entire augment's worth of damage at once, meaning it becomes a huge burst of damage tool instead of channel for mass DPS

Could also argue that maybe once the sound wave hits them, it resonates on *them* instead of the environment explaining why it does all that damage at once :P

How would this work though? It only does the damage because it hits multiple times. how will the game calculate how many times you were supposed to hit the enemy in one cast of the ability? Answer: it can't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd rather they yank out Fire Blast for an Overheat type ability. Slow cast, line-of-sight CC that isn't even instant and the ring it leaves is laughably small and is way too difficult to place as an area of denial with how squishy Ember is. The augment for Fire Blast is also not very good since it relies on that stupid fire ring.

Compared to Fireball + proposed changes: One-handed cast, can (maybe) provide area of denial when charged, and the augment for it can have actual use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DeadMansChest said:

I'd rather they yank out Fire Blast for an Overheat type ability. Slow cast, line-of-sight CC that isn't even instant and the ring it leaves is laughably small and is way too difficult to place as an area of denial with how squishy Ember is. The augment for Fire Blast is also not very good since it relies on that stupid fire ring.

Compared to Fireball + proposed changes: One-handed cast, can (maybe) provide area of denial when charged, and the augment for it can have actual use.

I kinda agree here. If Overheat were to come back, (in place of another ability), I'd rather it replace FireBlast than FireBall.

FireBlast just feels like it's trying to compete with all the other abilities in one way or the other. (And is never affective enough to be chosen over something else.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

Ember's biggest problem right now is still fire damage. Its just too weak. Compared to literally every other element except maybe magnetic. Works great on infested

As someone who plays Ember at higher levels, let me add my perspective on her problems:

Fire is actually good against moderately high-level (80-150) Grineer and Corrupted, because at those levels, people will probably be using 4xCP or other means of removing armor. The most effective builds become either pure Viral or Viral + Heat. I've done extensive testing of Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy under those conditions. If you mod a pistol with base physical damage (e.g. Akstiletto Prime, Lex Prime) with Pathogen Rounds + Deep Freeze + Primed Heated Charge and then buff with Flash Accelerant (244% strength build), you get a 4x effective damage buff (including all weaknesses/resistances). Add Fireball Frenzy and this climbs to about 7x. This is a much stronger team damage buff than Rhino's Roar or Nova's Molecular Prime for example.

Ember's problem is not theoretical damage output, but the difficulty of playing a high-strength Ember effectively. You have to hit all your teammates with your Fireball and Flash Accelerant, hit groups of Enemies with Flash Accelerant, and manage energy well enough to be able to use WoF for CC when needed. When I bring Ember to sorties, I often end up with the highest "abilites used" count. At high levels, Ember can currently compete with many other frames. It just takes more effort and pretty specific builds. This does make Ember "worse"  in a way, because she has to work much harder to do what others can achieve with one button press. Note that this is exactly the opposite of how Ember works at low levels (press one button and kill everything before anyone else even have a chance to get close).

Ember's biggest problem however, is the proposed change to WoF. The range and efficiency reduction shoehorn Ember into either running as a buffer OR as CC. Before the change, a skilled Ember prayer can give their team a bigger damage boost that a Nova could, while still providing CC that's about as good (again, if they know what they're doing). Sure, Ember has to work about 10 times harder, but she can do it. If the WoF change goes through, CC builds will have to give up power strength to get enough range and efficiency, so they can't buff damage. DPS buff builds on the other hand, will not be able to run WoF for CC because the range isn't enough and the energy requirements are too steep. What we will end up with is either a CC Ember who cannot in any way compete with better CC providers like Vauban, Nyx, or Loki OR a DPS buff Ember who can't do CC and therefore is little more than a much weaker Sonar/Resonance Banshee.

I absolutely love the idea of Fire Blast providing another damage buff. I really hope this will the implemented. The WoF change is horrible though. They should simply nerf its damage or make it deal zero damage beyond half-range. That would solve the low-level issues while keeping it viable for CC at higher levels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Cornelius.EE said:

-snip- (Only for the sake of keeping the quote short)

Good post.

Although, I do kind of agree with others about FireBlast's ability to buff damage being kind of pointless due to her other abilities.
 

More damage is nice, but like you said:

"Ember's problem is not theoretical damage output, but the difficulty of playing a high-strength Ember effectively."

This is the major issue Ember is having right now. Having to work a bit harder with her isn't too much of an issue, but when she's getting nerfed for doing something other frames do much better and they don't get touched, it leaves people confused.

At this point, it's pretty much agreed that WoF is mostly used for CC at late game (when FireQuake is equipped), but the current incoming changes are pretty much looking to harm that without giving anything in return.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Fate_Epsylon said:

FireBlast just feels like it's trying to compete with all the other abilities in one way or the other. (And is never affective enough to be chosen over something else.)

Though I like the idea of a damage buff while shooting through Fire Blast, I have to completely agree with you here. Ember is my second-favorite warframe, but the only times I've used Fire Blast is when I'd pressed the button accidentally. It doesn't even knock down enemies that are already on fire for <beeeeep>'s sake!

Fireball should stay. Fireball frenzy is absolutely no joke, especially when combined with Flash Accelerant. Besides, it's currently Ember's only one-handed ability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Fate_Epsylon said:

At this point, it's pretty much agreed that WoF is mostly used for CC at late game (when FireQuake is equipped), but the current incoming changes are pretty much looking to harm that without giving anything in return.

Completely agree with all you said. And I don't even use FireQuake. For me, the high chance to proc Heat with WoF on a high-strength build is enough CC, and I prefer not to knock things down so I can still headshot them. The extra mod slot is nice to have for other things too. The worst part is that the coming changes will hurt Ember's CC regardless of whether FireQuake is used, but especially so without it. My Ember won't be happy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Cornelius.EE said:

Though I like the idea of a damage buff while shooting through Fire Blast, I have to completely agree with you here. Ember is my second-favorite warframe, but the only times I've used Fire Blast is when I'd pressed the button accidentally. It doesn't even knock down enemies that are already on fire for <beeeeep>'s sake!

Fireball should stay. Fireball frenzy is absolutely no joke, especially when combined with Flash Accelerant. Besides, it's currently Ember's only one-handed ability.

That's also another great thing about Fireball, the "one-handed-ness" (for lack of better wording) it carries, it's something you can just fire off whenever and still carry on with what you're doing. 

I personally don't use FireBall Frenzy (too much), but it's awesome to see that you love it. It's awesome to toss it onto team mates and help out in terms of support.

 

As for FireBlast's inability to knockdown enemies already on fire, that's been a big complaint many people have had since it was first implemented. Seeing that be added to it would be nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Aranlan said:

The problem is that chroma has a build up loki's invis doesn't transition to invis over x sec where your total vulnerable, and the same apply for everyone else mentioned in fact rhino can refresh early with his augment in case it is getting low

Rhino needing an augment to refresh does not make it the same... 

Most of these mentioned make a CRAZY squishy frame survivable.... Allowing for a refresh would be no more games breaking than chroma the monster tank beast not having to work to keep super damage and super defense indefinitely.... Considering vex armor is "one of the best damage multipliers in game"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/7/2018 at 9:30 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Focus Passives now apply immediately upon loading into a mission, rather than requiring the brief Operator transition.

this is nice as well won't have to try to hide and use from newer player didn't want to spoil it for them but wanted the focus passives

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/7/2018 at 10:30 AM, [DE]Connor said:
  • Changed Dive Bomb augment into a Tail Wind augment - now reads: “Each enemy hit increases Tail Wind damage by 25%. Damage resets upon landing.”
  • Dive Bomb can now fire on slight angles, as long as you’re looking mostly down.

May I make a suggestion, how about the icon of the first ability changes when you aim enough for Dive Bomb to activate, or have the cursor change to indicate dive bombability?  Just a suggestion.  Wouldn't take much work since the assets already exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...