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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited Part 2

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4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

-snip-

Ok, quick feedback:

ASH

  • Eclipsing Shuriken even more I see? While I don't mind this buff, please don't forget Shuriken!

ATLAS

  • Petrify is now an instant flash petrification, huh? Sounds nice! Maybe also let it be a cast which allows you to still move (not onehanded, but at least allow him to move while casting)? The casttime also seems a bit long-ish (but free movement would alleviate that a whole bunch).
  • Rubble better duration. Ok, mostly just liking it for the health though, but can't complain :)
  • Ore Gaze reworked? You mean that augment which no one ever really used (which now FINALLY could be nichely decent... not great, just decent) And you might nerf it? Really now?

BANSHEE

  • Why? Then it's just gonna be a 360 Sonic Boom, isn't it? Couldn't you let BASE soundquake work like what you said Resonating Quake was gonna be like in workshop part 1 (albeit with its old range), and then let the augment do something more interesting?

CHROMA

  • Spectral Scream cast while active - Neat (especially considering this mechanic was a neat buff for old rework-Petrify). But it'd still be a bad ability if it doesn't add something which weapons already can't. Like say, damage from Spectral Scream grants shields or something? Or unique, non-status-based debuffing of some sorts?
  • Spectral Scream getting Vex Armor damage... you already said this in part 1... >_>
  • Vex Armor range buff. Nice. Though we didn't even know the base value it was getting, so why did we need to know that in the first place? Or did you mean a buff to the range of Elemental Ward?
  • Vex Armor recastability sounds fair, considering its nerfs.

EMBER

  • Fireball... chargeable for more damage. Great, so, it still sucks, nice to know *sigh* -.-
    Oh, and that lingering napalm is just Fireball 1.0, woopdidoo? Anything SPECIAL about that fire other than damage? Also, where is the buff to it so it's actually worth wasting spending energy on it? You know, some kind of non-damage, non-heat-proc utility?
  • Fire Blast, heat damage shooting through the ring, eh? That's nice, but it could still need something extra, something that LETS you stay in the fire ring (like enemies have great difficulties aiming at you and your allies if you stand inside the ring, or just plain DR?)

GARA

  • QoL is always good!

MAG

  • More energy, nice (although it was already mentioned in your FAQ of part 1, but it wasn't clearly displayed there)
  • Faster Crush, ok, good, but it STILL will be competing greatly with Polarize in function. Still no rethinking about that part I guess? :(
  • Polarize Augment - Wow... so it's made EVEN MORE similar to Crush (CC was the only thing it was missing to just be a different version of Crush, basicly). That, and its new augment also means you'd NEVER choose together with the one for Magnetize (since you can't jam someone's weapon which is already disarmed)? Urgh...

VOLT

  • Good, cuz he seems to be quite well polished now.

ZEPHYR

  • Cheaper midair Tailwind, nice!
  • How much is "more damage"? From the wording, I guess just more flat damage. Thus, a change that won't EVER be noticed (cuz TW has NEVER been used seriously for dealing damage. NEVER). If you wan't it to deal more damage, it needs WAY more than just a flat damage increase (melee scaling, or health-scaling etc).
  • Tailwind augment... you're not serious are you?! That's absolutely DREADFUL! TW/DB needs more than just a bandaid an augment if they are to become some form of damagedealing ability. Glad to know I can at least completely skip this augment now. Shame, cuz the old augment was at least interesting/semi-useful :(
  • Dive Bomb... how about making it the midair chargecast, allowing us to angle it quite far forward, and with damage/utility/CC that is truly NOTICEABLE? Aren't you aware that it'd just be a mobility tool in your rework otherwise?
  • Steering Tornadoes... still don't really know if I like it or hate it. On one hand, having them steerable sounds good for specific situations. On the other hand, letting them free-roam was always neat so you can "forget" them. Guess it's for the better overall?

OTHER

  • Instant focus passives, can't dislike that!
  • Summons slowly dieing instead of instadieing to nullifiers, very nice!
Edited by Azamagon
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CHROMA:

Q: What is the new formula for damage and armor calculation?
A: Instead of [(Base * Mods) * Vex Armor], it is now [Base * (Vex + Mods)], like all other damage boosting abilities.

Am I calculating it right? (For Vex Armor Buff)

Go from this data: 649% Scorn Buff / Steel Fiber 110% / Blind Rage 99% (+350 Base Armor)

Before: [(3,5 * (110+99) * 6,49] = 4.747

Now: [3,5 * (649 + 110 + 99] = 3.003

Would be about a 40% nerf

Edited by BringMeYourAzz

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Some fundamental problems Ember has that are not being addressed by any of these changes:

 

1) World on Fire is still mandatory. Not only it is your main source of damage but it also keeps you alive when your damage starts to fall short (with Firequake augment, which arguably is also mandatory).

2) Being required to maintain World on Fire on at all times discourages players from spending energy on anything else. Using Accelerant every once in a while is doable, but anything beyond that is unsustainable.

3) Ember relies heavily on mobility. You move to kill, you move to grab energy orbs and you move to make yourself harder to hit. Yet Fire Blast expects Ember to stand still and act like Frost.

4) Her passive only works when World on Fire is off. If World on Fire is off chances are you're already dead.

5) All power stats (strength, range, duration, efficiency) are very important for Ember. In order to invest in all of those you need to sacrifice health, shields or both. But since Ember's kit barely has any defensive options, being able to kill everything around you as quickly as possible becomes a necessity.

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13 minutes ago, Xsoskeleton said:

stun duration is actually like the damage, less effect on enemies in longer distance from volt.

Yeah, which kills Discharge since it has a huge radius (with my build anyway).

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Is it possible to add add a forma refund on frames and weps at the cost of credits? or a "reset configuration" sort of button that allows the frame/wep go back to the default polarities (refunding forma) so we can re forma those according to buffs/nerfs without the use of extra formas.

 

Edited by (PS4)Fefo-M
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I personally agree with these changes but.. I don't know.. there are many things which I would love:

ASH: Smoke Screen could be recast to preserve the invisibility

ATLAS: Petrified enemies takes more damage (to balance the fact that they are IMMUNE to status O.O)

EMBER: Accelerant gives a buff to Ember's heat damage (if it sounds too OP, only to enemies in a radius from her), insted of a debuff on enemies in a range, because I hate to spam accelerant to debuff new enemies enters in my range.

GARA:  Splinter Storm is not more a single-target ability, but has a range.

VOLT: add to his passive a buff when he suffers an electric proc, has ember.

ZEPHYR: Turbulence deflect/reflect ALL projectiles/rockets, of ALL weapons types (hit-scan, continuos ecc..)

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Give you honor for vectis prime rubico and supra vandal, also latron p

Onemagoneshot (vectis p)- damage and crit chance is awsome w rework.

Longscopedrevolver (rubico)- crit needed an increase long time ago

Sprayer (supr vandal)- amazing crit and status rework. Damave isnt so needed on it.

Oneshooter (latron p)- so far needed a cc rework, but i didnt expect the bonus crit dmg.

 

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2 minutes ago, Xsoskeleton said:

About Zephyr, aside or instead of the angle based activation (to horizontal tailwind or dive bomb), How about make it like this:
While airborne, tap Tail WInd button to cast a dive bomb. Or, hold to cast horizontal Tail WInd, and can be further charged like the suggested change to either; add a hover after the horizontal Tail WInd, OR, make the horizontal Tail WInd gets additional damage/travel distance.

Or a crazier idea, while airborne, hold/charging tail wind enable a flying mode like the archwing shift+space thingy;
Controls:
Auto forward thrust, camera movement to direct her,
Right click to slow down (like down to 80% of the flying mode speed),
Left click to speed up (like up to 120% of the flying mode speed),
and lastly to cast Divebomb in this mode simply tap 1 again, but instead of simply downward divebomb, it will charge to directions u aimed like lower than 30 degree below horizontal view with 200% flying mode speed, if u aim higher or straight down it will cast the usual downward divebomb.
Flying mode turns off upon stumbling with environment (like map-fixed objects) and cast a mini version of divebomb (less aoe, less damage, stagger instead of knockdowns).

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Will the heat damage applied to munitions fired through Fire Blast work both ways resulting in Ember's passive procing and/or will the napalm from a charged Fireball offer this benefit?
 

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12 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Vex Armor range buff. Nice. Though we didn't even know the base value it was getting, so why did we need to know that in the first place? Or did you mean a buff to the range of Elemental Ward?

iirc before they tried 10m for Vex Armor

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Just now, Transformau5 said:

iirc before they tried 10m for Vex Armor

Lol, really? Despite them (hopefully) knowing most people go with Narrowminded?

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1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Then why should your opinion be counted?

 

EDIT: Sorry, that was a little harsh. Nonetheless, if you don't play Ember and you genuinely do not care if she is unfairly overnerfed, why should your opinion be counted alongside those players who want her to be balanced and fun?

 

1 hour ago, An8rchy said:

^ this, if u aren't making a fair point about ember and her nerfs being the death of her, then dont

I never said my opinion mattered, I also never said she couldn't use some love. Hell I think it'd be useful if I did. What I did say is I remember them saying something about this being placeholder and even if my memory is a bit fuzy on that you don't even have the changes yet and it's quite possible everyone is over-reacting before they have even had a chance to try it out. Before we even have the buffs there are no "opinions" it's all just assumption. Give it time see how it pans out.

 

P.S. tl:dr version. I don't deny she could use some love I just think everyone is a tad bit to quick to jump on the "OMG OMG OMG MY FAVORITE FRAME IS GETTING CHANGED" train.

 

Edited by (PS4)purpleskullgamin

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16 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Maybe also let it be a cast which allows you to still move (not onehanded, but at least allow him to move while casting)?

current atlas ingame can already move while petrifying (walk and roll)

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7 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Vex Armor range buff. Nice. Though we didn't even know the base value it was getting, so why did we need to know that in the first place?

Going by the live stream, the vex aura was placed at 10m. (source: Tactical Potato's video recap). The increase in range is an improvement.

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Embers fireball is a nice change. But her 3 is still somewhat lacking. How about make her ring of fire block a % of incoming projectiles based on strength. It 'overheats' projectiles causing it to melt and/or burn down when passing through the ring(as The Witcher fans I'm disappointed -- Triss' fire shield anyone?). Same with enemies. Make her 3 'overheat' weapons for those who pass through it with a % to jam and/or disarm. This way enemies would try to close in on her but the closer you get the more heat damage dealt to them.  Accelerant, her 2, on cast still stuns enemies. Make it that not only temporarily buffs her fire abilities, make it also extend and enhance the effects of them as well.

Cast a charged fireball > Leave a napalm trail > Cast accelerant > refresh napalm trail timer and enhance damage while stunning enemies caught on it.
Accelerant enhaces ring of fire's overheat effect for a % of ability strength.

Accelerant is a nice concept but a lackluster power as of now. Her 1 is supposed to be her sustainable ability but no one seems to use it. It is supposed to look awesome as well I mean, come on, were talking about fireball here. Can we at least have a decent animation of that? Fire is supposed to dazzle as it is a 'show-off', shock and awe type of power. I've had a handful of mods in Skyrim just to enhance the look of elemental effects. Only a few games come to mind that satisfyingly showcase fire powers. FF15 Ifrit and Shadow of War Balrog and wyvern are only a few examples with glorious fire effects.

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1 minute ago, Xsoskeleton said:

current atlas ingame can already move while petrifying (walk and roll)

Yes, in the OLD version. From the gif they linked, it looked like he will have to stop every time to cast the new "Flash" Petrify though.

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So wait, Fireblast requires you stay in an area to make any real use of it but then you also nerf WoF's range (the only stat that really matters at higher levels) to require more mobility? I'm getting mixed messages here.


Edited by DeadMansChest
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Questions in regards to Chroma and Banshee:

 

Will Chroma Elemental Ward Aura get matching base range as new 18m Vex Armor range?

•Also will Toxin Chroma be able to apply AoE toxin regardless of other sources of toxin procs?

 

Banshee: Is Res Quake single instance of damage going to auto-target Sonar Weakpoint?

•Was really hoping Res Quake would be a short duration AoE knockdown to allow Banshee to close distance for melee when Silence Aura stun has worn off.

Or can Sonic Boom if cast on enemies in Silence Aura trigger a stun refresh, pretty please? (Would like to be able to use Savage Silence & Sonic Fracture for melee use without throwing enemies away and thus out of melee range.)

 

Edit:

Ember Fire Blast adding Heat Damage

Can this Heat damage that is added when firing through Fire Blast not be Elemental combinable.

That way it is always Heat Damage that can be buffed by Accelerant?

Edited by (PS4)MrNishi
Fire Blast Heat damage

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2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

CHROMA:

  • Can cast other abilities while using Spectral Scream.
  • Spectral Scream damage now affected by Vex Armor damage buff.
  • Vex Armor aura range increased (currently 18 meters base range).
  • Vex Armor can now be recast to preserve accumulated buffs.

Wasn't that already an intended change?

I think the combined changes of Vex Armor recast really saves the new aura feature, because this allows Chroma to safely ditch Narrow Minded (which would really limit the team buff potential).

 

With that said, I have two questions about Spectral Scream:

  • Will anything be done for it's energy efficiency? I feel it is going to be unwieldy to use Spectral Scream as part of the standard Chroma builds with low energy efficiency.
  • Will the Afterburn augment be affected by Vex Armor?

 

Finally, I think this is an occasion to indirectly buff Vex Armor's augment: if the detonation effect was also granted on allies, or the range corresponded to the new range of Vex Armor, I think the augment would be more competitive for a slot. As is, I don't think Vex Armor's augment is ever worth a mod slot, but that is my opinion.

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3 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Yes, in the OLD version. From the gif they linked, it looked like he will have to stop every time to cast the new "Flash" Petrify though.

the flash petrify are actually havent been shown as gameplay afaik, if u read carefully the flash petrify wont ba a channeled abilities anymore, means no more toggled petrifying and rather become an instant cast skill.

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24 minutes ago, BringMeYourAzz said:

CHROMA:

Q: What is the new formula for damage and armor calculation?
A: Instead of [(Base * Mods) * Vex Armor], it is now [Base * (Vex + Mods)], like all other damage boosting abilities.

Am I calculating it right? (For Vex Armor Buff)

Go from this data: 649% Scorn Buff / Steel Fiber 110% / Blind Rage 99% (+350 Base Armor)

Before: [(3,5 * (110+99) * 6,49] = 4.747

Now: [3,5 * (649 + 110 + 99] = 3.003

Would be about a 40% nerf

You miss Elemental Ward in Ice power :)

Before "fix", with Steel Fiber and Blind Rage, Elemental Ward and Vex Armore rise the armor to 12396. After fix, armor is lowered to 4218. A 294% nerf :D

Moreover the destruction of Chroma's survivability, Ice is now totaly useless since Fire grant heal and more eHP than Ice.

Edited by MacIntoc

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I've had a few thoughts on the Ash and Zephyr frames for a while; now that you guys are considering fairly large changes it seems like a good time to mention them.

___

First up, I like the idea of Ash being able to choose whether or not he joins in the Bladestorm, but I'm thinking it could be streamlined a little.

Ivara and Vauban have a tap/hold mechanic with their abilities where one switches an ability's functionality and the other launches the ability. It would be nice if Bladestorm could use the tap/hold to choose whether to jump in right away or stay in control.

Right now the ability is activated by *press button, mark targets, press button*. If that second press could let you choose depending on whether you tap or hold I think it would be a great way to make the ability flow more smoothly. Using Teleport to jump in partway through if you don't jump in right away could still be an option with this. 

___

On that note, I also wanted to talk about the target marking. The 3-action setup of pressing the button, wiggling your mouse in the general direction of the targets, and pressing it again can feel awkward and slow. I was hoping to suggest a bit of a more extensive rework that could address this:

So, first up, reduce Bladestorm to a single tap/hold as above. This automatically marks a small number of targets very close to you and proceeds to Bladestorm all marked targets. The range would be tiny compared to the old Bladestorm so players aren't back to instantly annihilating the entire map and recasting constantly.

Next we add more ways to mark targets. After a player gets Ash to rank 10+ (unlocking Bladestorm) the other abilities in his kit will start marking targets. Every enemy hit with Shuriken will get marked, enemies inside the smoke bomb when he goes invisible get marked, if a target gets teleported to it gets marked. Maybe targets that take melee damage while invisible get marked? Maybe also have Shuriken throw out an extra blade or two (good augment, maybe)?

With this change players will have plenty of opportunities to mark a target and get plenty of Bladestorming out of each cast, while activating the ability can let it work immediately without the awkwardness of an extra button press. The power's potential remains high, you just have to "charge" it with your other abilities.

___

On the topic of Zephyr; I am very much in favor of merging Tailwind and Divebomb, but there is some awkwardness in the very straight-line nature of her movement. I was thinking about how much control Titania has in the air, but how rigid our favorite birdy's choices are.

This would be an excellent opportunity to introduce a Long-Hold or Active-while-held ability. It would essentially act the same way as a toggle ability (like World on Fire), draining power while active and being affected by efficiency/duration mods the same way, but it would not have an up-front cost. It would be for power's that are expected to be used frequently for highly variable amounts of time. For example, giving Ember a flamethrower power or a maybe for Hydroid's Undertow.

For Zephyr's Tailwind the player would press and hold the button to start zooming off in the direction they are looking, with the ability to change direction while still zipping around simply by looking in the new direction without letting go of the ability button.

The Divebomb component would be activated when Zephyr is Tailwinding downwards and collides with the ground at say a 60° to 90° angle. This version could possibly be modified so that impact with any surface (including vertical ones or the ceiling) could trigger the Divebomb portion (possibly as an augment, if not part of the normal ability).

When the player no-longer wants to use the ability they simply release the button or Divebomb with it.

___

On the topic of the Long-Hold ability and going back to Ash for a moment; Shuriken might benefit from being able to target units and/or throwing out a stream of shurikens by Long-Holding the ability instead of tapping for a single set of thrown blades.

___

Thanks for your consideration!

Edited by Trase-Kor
Clarifying Long-Hold deactivation.
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43 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

A little of imagination:

Please forgive me if this comes off overly negative, I'm trying not to be, Zephyr's my favourite frame and I've been here for so long discussing, debating, talking with Zephyr lovers, Zephyr haters, and most importantly the Zephyr indifferent players, to find what functions people actually find interesting, cool, powerful, useful and so on.

I've had two years and 613 read and participated threads of Zephyr reworks worth of imagination on these Forums, and I've been playing Zephyr since her release. I'm kind of... all out. I'm tired and drained and the current rework from DE reads (and I'm just a tired old guy saying this, I could be wrong, I often am) exactly like every single 'first draft' Zephyr rework thread out there; merge 1 and 2, new 2, make Tornado deal damage, make her fly/hover. Hundreds of threads start out this way, that's probably why the rework has started out this way, and I can't blame DE for that, it's literally the most vocal part of the rework community. At least they didn't touch Turbulence... So many players think that it's either OP or not powerful enough and try to make it literally OP...

But here's the issue; the people that come in don't often (some of the time they have some really specific and fun thoughts) have new thoughts or ideas about Zephyr, they don't actually know what they want for her, they just want her changed. The vast majority of the player base doesn't actually even care, they just want to see some change to her that would make her better. Any change that gets done will attract attention from the community for a while, then people that prefer other frames, or just like exploring the new content, will leave again and move on, but the people that liked Zephyr from the start will still be there and they won't be happy.

That minority of players that do play her and do love her have been working and theory-crafting for years with some amazing threads and ideas. The most positive plan of action I can see in this kind of situation is to listen to that minority, who put in the time, who came up with the most imaginative ideas. If they make some interesting changes based on that kind of feedback, bring back the players that didn't know or care about her before, then there's going to be some rather surprised and interested feedback for a while, and when those players eventually lose interest and return to their mains or the new frames, the minority will still be there but they'll be happy.

I mean, look, so many simple ideas could make things better. For example, if you unlock the animation on Tailwind, just make it a boost in a direction instead of a 'jetting through the air' pose, you'll completely avoid all of the problems people have with hitting objects and being unable to move for a bit, you'll be able to reload, parkour, land on objects, recast the ability in a new direction... it would be a huge quality of life improvement to Tailwind at no cost to the Devs.

Tornado is slow and cumbersome even with the new steering, but if you made it into a range-limited cast (like Tentacle Swarm, for example) the funnels could be allowed to move much faster around that range, picking up enemies more reliably and actually providing area denial function instead of disrupting gameplay.

Heck, even this new 2 that she has, the ragdoll? Somebody already came up with that, and it was pointed out (over much debate, and pointed out by the original poster too) that it's going the wrong way; grouping enemies in some way would make them a perfect target for Dive Bomb and thus not only 'synergise' with that ability (DB's range being so small when you don't have Overextended that grouped enemies are hard to come by), but also give her an option to deal with enemies in crowded spaces, like melee units getting too close. The suggestion that came out of that were a half dozen variants on a mini-funnel or shape made of wind that would pull enemies away from Zephyr in a line, meaning that they ended up clustered a little way away after a few seconds 'drag'. Low damage, or no damage, and mainly CC, and the end result is useful for everyone. Attack with weapons or her abilities, super simple function, but a welcome one.

Which leads me to the augment here;

Basically, an augment that ups the power? Great, I'll take it. But at least look into what the mechanics are that would interfere with it. I mean, look, the mechanic's main function is to get stronger the more enemies you hit, but Tailwind already has a problem hitting multiple enemies due to the low range on the radius and the fact that you can't 'pass through' enemies that you hit directly. Making the mechanic function based on something the ability already has trouble doing appears to be quite counter-intuitive to me.

You see where I'm coming from on this?

Great Augs for Tailwind have been suggested a dozen times, everything from making the dash through allies buff them to debuffing enemies on top of the damage, to making it do something like a mini Rhino Stomp and create a line of slow ragdoll, suspending enemies in that line of travel. This would also solve the 'pass through' issue too, if you think about it.

So it's just...

It's just kind of disappointing, really. After all the work put in by players of Zephyr, the years of threads and discussion, investment in a frame that's just fun to play for us, that none of that has seemed to have any effect.

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After reading these changes, happiness and wondering happen at same time.

Mag: Increase energy pool is well accepted, but her old polarize argument which provides her good survivability is better IMO. We cast her 3 to reduce enemy armor, shield and gain overshield which can prevent instant dead in a lot of situation. Damage wise, instead, is not a real deal in mid to high lv missions.

The new argument is a large range, short time CC, which could actually hurt kill per second in corpus missions. And considering you would need her Magnetize to keep long enough to block enemy fire and absorb damage to deal with insane armor/shield scaling, but also not too long and become unable to explode. Some players like me are not using that Magnetize Discharge argument but negative duration, max range build.

In this case, the short 4s CC from new Polarize argument is almost useless due to low duration. And without overshield, Mag's survivability is drastically decreased in high lv missions since you have to keep running or stay in the right side of her Magnetize field. 

Although this is just how I play mag, a negative duration, max range, max efficiency build with Shield Transference argument only. But this has pointed out an old opinion that people think the Magnetize Discharge argument should be an initial function of her Magnetize. Just like Trinity 2 can gain all energy by killing the enemy to compensate long duration build. And the new CC argument could be great for her first skill for quick CC, which makes her 1 does not pull enemies so much but jam weapons and disable proxies.

Note: I personally understand that people may think her Shield Transference argument is OP when there are shield enemies in the field. But considering it does nothing on Grinner and Infested enemies, while in high Lv Corpus missions it only prevents you from instantly died from corpus techs or crewman due to their insane DPS, it's not a really OP thing IMO. Mag does not have any direct protective ability instead of Shield Transference.

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1 minute ago, Xsoskeleton said:

the flash petrify are actually havent been shown as gameplay afaik, if u read carefully the flash petrify wont ba a channeled abilities anymore, means no more toggled petrifying and rather become an instant cast skill.

Ummm... maybe read what I wrote? Again, I also said there's a link in the OP...

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