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Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited Part 2


[DE]Connor

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About Chroma's Effigy, a suggestion:

Give it a mechanic that allows you to sacrifice credits to boost it's stats temporarily

DE has correctly moved away from "press 4 to win" powers, and effigy only doesn't entirelly fall into that cathegory because it isn't strong enough. I'd argue that it would be great if effigy could fulfill it's intended role of being a stationary turret, as long as there was some kind of compromise or catch (so players won't just cast it by the defense objective and sit idle).

Following the tradition that dragons hoard gold and riches, you could feed effigy credits, in packs of 1.000 credits/boost, holding 4 after casting to start feeding it. This way the player is still 'forced' to move out and play, killing enemies and collecting credits to bring back to feed the effigy. Boosts last for a set duration (if effigy stays as a drain ability, then maybe don't let power duration affect these boosters, but if it becomes a one cast ability then duration could affect it too). Credits can only be transfered to your effigy under a radius affected by power range, centered on the effigy itself. 

I feel like the armor drop from casting effigy is often too punitive especially since Chroma is a tank, so maybe turn it into a free toggle ability, but to balance it out effigy stays dormant and doesn't attack until you feed it credits.

Also a current mission credit counter could be displayed over Chroma's powers to let him manage this new mechanic.

 

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)carlosfiiUSA said:

About Chroma's Effigy, a suggestion:

Give it a mechanic that allows you to sacrifice credits to boost it's stats temporarily

DE has correctly moved away from "press 4 to win" powers, and effigy only doesn't entirelly fall into that cathegory because it isn't strong enough. I'd argue that it would be great if effigy could fulfill it's intended role of being a stationary turret, as long as there was some kind of compromise or catch (so players won't just cast it by the defense objective and sit idle).

Following the tradition that dragons hoard gold and riches, you could feed effigy credits, in packs of 1.000 credits/boost, holding 4 after casting to start feeding it. This way the player is still 'forced' to move out and play, killing enemies and collecting credits to bring back to feed the effigy. Boosts last for a set duration (if effigy stays as a drain ability, then maybe don't let power duration affect these boosters, but if it becomes a one cast ability then duration could affect it too). Credits can only be transfered to your effigy under a radius affected by power range, centered on the effigy itself. 

I feel like the armor drop from casting effigy is often too punitive especially since Chroma is a tank, so maybe turn it into a free toggle ability, but to balance it out effigy stays dormant and doesn't attack until you feed it credits.

Also a current mission credit counter could be displayed over Chroma's powers to let him manage this new mechanic.

 

it would be really interesting to see a buff to Effigy to have scaling damage that increases based on credits picked up while Effigy is active. The more credits picked up while Effigy is active, the larger the boost (and possibly the energy drain to compensate).

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Considering what they said the motivation for the WoF changes were, I wonder why they didn't make it a minimal flat damage plus some percentage of enemy (E)HP (say... 10%?). That would make it much less likely to insta-kill low level enemies, while allowing Ember to scale better into "endgame" content.

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1 minute ago, cursedmoon13 said:

Considering what they said the motivation for the WoF changes were, I wonder why they didn't make it a minimal flat damage plus some percentage of enemy (E)HP (say... 10%?). That would make it much less likely to insta-kill low level enemies, while allowing Ember to scale better into "endgame" content.

I agree. Personally, I would like this type of scaling on her heat procs also.

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can we       please rework trinity for  change make her first power vampire bullets for health instead of an enemy buff or a haduken tap kamehameha hold ... lol that last one is a reach but lets please get rid of the well of life its like buffing an enemy and please make link recastable at least at a greater cost.

Okay heres the dream

1 haduken tap kamehmeha hold to help trinity in case her weapons arent effective

2 vampire leech bullets cast would be a reload animtion to mke trinty a more active squadmember and fun

3 link same mechanic but change to energy shield  that materialises when struck and make recastable

4 blessing same but should pick up friendlies intantly when used on them

passive 200percent quickthinking effect  

passive  50 percent rage effect 

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27 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

it would be really interesting to see a buff to Effigy to have scaling damage that increases based on credits picked up while Effigy is active. The more credits picked up while Effigy is active, the larger the boost (and possibly the energy drain to compensate).

I actually meant to spend credits on effigy's boosts. I know it hurts in my pocket to do so, but the compromise for a siseable boost should be a meaningful sacrifice. Scaling energy up doesn't work so well in my opinionn because effigy is already pretty expensive, and chroma's survivability depends on constantly casting 2 and 3, so it adds up. I'd prefer the credit consumption, it is an optional resource that you could use in harder defense missions in which you don't mind not bringing credits home anyway

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30 minutes ago, Calthous said:

Ember really needs some sort of survivability boost if she is getting that WoF change. 

Agreed. Fire Blast is so close to being worthwhile, just reduce the damage of enemy projectiles and bullets that fly through the flames and we have ourselves a way to mitigate damage... or provide Overheat-esque damage reduction with World on Fire since it drains double the energy at 100%; the choice between a) do I want more range for Firequake by toggling on and off, and b) do I want more survability and damage in exchange for more energy drain and getting closer to the fight?

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So, before I head off to bed (and I'll probably just leave this thread alone tomorrow since I'm sick of banging my head against this brick wall) I want to ask: folks who are saying "Wait and see, give the rework a chance, everyone has to test it for themselves, once its in place DE can still tweak it and make it better," if it does turn out to be awful and basically just makes Ember bad at low level kill hogging at the cost of making her bad at everything, will you be there saying to DE "Ok, now we tried it, and we think it's a mistake, this should be fixed,"?

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50 minutes ago, (PS4)carlosfiiUSA said:

I actually meant to spend credits on effigy's boosts. I know it hurts in my pocket to do so, but the compromise for a siseable boost should be a meaningful sacrifice. Scaling energy up doesn't work so well in my opinionn because effigy is already pretty expensive, and chroma's survivability depends on constantly casting 2 and 3, so it adds up. I'd prefer the credit consumption, it is an optional resource that you could use in harder defense missions in which you don't mind not bringing credits home anyway

My idea was sort of inspired by what you said.

 

I don't think spending credits to benefit the ability really makes much sense to me. It also doesn't really seem to work based on the frame's theme. If he is the dragon frame then why would you be spending credits? Dragons 'horde' gold by taking it from their enemies. It just doesn't make sense to pay the effigy credits to me.

 

I think the idea of a frame that benefits from spending/using credits is pretty cool, but it needs to be the main focus of the frame. A gambler or mercenary or something.

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3 hours ago, Cornelius.EE said:

As someone who plays Ember at higher levels, let me add my perspective on her problems:

Fire is actually good against moderately high-level (80-150) Grineer and Corrupted, because at those levels, people will probably be using 4xCP or other means of removing armor. The most effective builds become either pure Viral or Viral + Heat. I've done extensive testing of Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy under those conditions. If you mod a pistol with base physical damage (e.g. Akstiletto Prime, Lex Prime) with Pathogen Rounds + Deep Freeze + Primed Heated Charge and then buff with Flash Accelerant (244% strength build), you get a 4x effective damage buff (including all weaknesses/resistances). Add Fireball Frenzy and this climbs to about 7x. This is a much stronger team damage buff than Rhino's Roar or Nova's Molecular Prime for example.

Ember's problem is not theoretical damage output, but the difficulty of playing a high-strength Ember effectively. You have to hit all your teammates with your Fireball and Flash Accelerant, hit groups of Enemies with Flash Accelerant, and manage energy well enough to be able to use WoF for CC when needed. When I bring Ember to sorties, I often end up with the highest "abilites used" count. At high levels, Ember can currently compete with many other frames. It just takes more effort and pretty specific builds. This does make Ember "worse"  in a way, because she has to work much harder to do what others can achieve with one button press. Note that this is exactly the opposite of how Ember works at low levels (press one button and kill everything before anyone else even have a chance to get close).

Ember's biggest problem however, is the proposed change to WoF. The range and efficiency reduction shoehorn Ember into either running as a buffer OR as CC. Before the change, a skilled Ember prayer can give their team a bigger damage boost that a Nova could, while still providing CC that's about as good (again, if they know what they're doing). Sure, Ember has to work about 10 times harder, but she can do it. If the WoF change goes through, CC builds will have to give up power strength to get enough range and efficiency, so they can't buff damage. DPS buff builds on the other hand, will not be able to run WoF for CC because the range isn't enough and the energy requirements are too steep. What we will end up with is either a CC Ember who cannot in any way compete with better CC providers like Vauban, Nyx, or Loki OR a DPS buff Ember who can't do CC and therefore is little more than a much weaker Sonar/Resonance Banshee.

I absolutely love the idea of Fire Blast providing another damage buff. I really hope this will the implemented. The WoF change is horrible though. They should simply nerf its damage or make it deal zero damage beyond half-range. That would solve the low-level issues while keeping it viable for CC at higher levels.

I respect your perspective but completely disagree.

Mainly because you based this on 2 details that shouldn't be a factor for any warframe

Augments and Corrosive Projection

Excalibur doesn't need it for his Exalted Blade. Chromatic blade does make it more powerful but its not necessary. You can easily wreck stuff with a crit build to 100 before casting Radial blind in conjunction.Octavia needs no augments or auras to crush her enemies. Both excal and Octavia are merely examples but there are plenty of frames that are the same way. Augments weren't meant to be a reliance but to change how certain abilities are played, thus adding a whole new playstyle to that warframe. It was an option. Its the same problem Mag's Polarize had, people almost religiously thought it was necessary on all mag builds for a time. That's being pushed away now but its taken too long to get to this point. Also Oberon has one of the best augments in my opinion but he doesn't need it to wreck house in higher levels.

 

My clan doesn't bring CP to anything, we generally don't need it even for going high level. There are quite a few ways past armor for us and thats generally how we play. Its also taken too long to get to this point where its really not necessary and to be fair the armor scaling is still and issue.

 

Ember may provide CC but equinox has a similar CC with the added ability to wreck everything after enough kills. Equinox can also change her 4 around to fit the battle and she deals slash, both as a CC and a damaging aoe, which is far superior to fire.

Fire alone will not carry ember into high level. Without augments she doesn't have the oomph and thats a problem. And again fire doesn't pack a powerful enough punch to take down high armored targets, which are the biggest threats at high level.

Now i don't say this all with venom. If you disagree thats fine but heres a change that might be good.

What if every enemy killed/burned adds a stack of......lets call it overheat. Each stack increases the fire damage by a percent each time and makes the flames hotter thus increasing the amount of damage dealt by burn effects as well as making them last longer. It could be like 2% per enemy killed but the longer you go the stronger it gets.

At one point if you have enough stacks it would start to ignore a percentage of armor (fire melts metal).

Her accelerant could be flash accelerant without the mod needed.

A lot of this revolves around fire not being crap. Instead it would be like real life taking ideas from such things like a smelter or a friggin star.

 

Our elemental damages need an update (especially the core ones), they were part of a previous idea in which players weren't cutting through level 100+ enemies daily like they were butter. We're reaching new heights and therefore our elements must be able to rise as well.

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46 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

My idea was sort of inspired by what you said.

 

I don't think spending credits to benefit the ability really makes much sense to me. It also doesn't really seem to work based on the frame's theme. If he is the dragon frame then why would you be spending credits? Dragons 'horde' gold by taking it from their enemies. It just doesn't make sense to pay the effigy credits to me.

 

I think the idea of a frame that benefits from spending/using credits is pretty cool, but it needs to be the main focus of the frame. A gambler or mercenary or something.

I think his idea revovles around the word effigy. In some cultures people would pay tributes to effigy depicting their gods or mythlogical/legendary figures. The belief is that the figures in question would then grant something to those paying tribute, things like a bountiful harvest or the death of an empire etc.

At least thats what it seems like to me

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On 2/7/2018 at 7:30 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Thanks to everybody who read our previous thread, tuned in for the stream, and left their comments on our proposed Warframe ability changes. After having the weekend to observe player responses and read feedback, we’ve been trying out a few further changes, and wanted to update you guys on our progress!

Thank you! I like pretty much every change, even the "nerfs".

Any chances you guys are looking into Mirage's Eclipse buffs not displaying on the HUD accurately (it shows the full value, not what she's actually getting) and her Eclipse buff amount (Never being able to actually get what's listed from the biff no matter the intensity of the light). Giving limited control would be very helpful too. 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

I respect your perspective but completely disagree.

My apologies: I read and quoted your post out of context. I actually agree with all or most of what you say. As you pointed out, Ember does have some major issues. I would love to see some of your suggestions implemented as they would go quite a way to fixing them.

My previous post (actually everything I've posted about the proposed warframe changes) is mostly addressed at the Devs, and I should have made that clearer. My position towards them is that, despite core problems, people have found ways (no matter how contrived or overly reliant on specific mods, etc.) to make Ember work. Since some of the issues, like you pointed out, are pretty deep-seated, it would take a pretty extensive rework to solve them. In the meantime, the proposed band-aid fixes should not, in solving one shallow problem, compromise the ways people have found to work around the existing deeper issues.

 

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On 2/7/2018 at 8:40 AM, (PS4)NatK98 said:

I hope I'm not too late on requesting this, but I feel it's important, especially if you want players to actually ever use Ember.

I'd like to request a few things that I believe would achieve what you guys want (stopping ember from nuking the map) and keep players using her, instead of throwing her off to the side. Firstly we need to address the proposed world on fire changes. Reducing the range this significantly not only prevents her from killing, but from being realisticly useful at all (even with her firequake augment). My alternative is this: keep her range the same, but reduce the amount of damage enemies take from WoF significantly the further away they are from Ember, while increasing it the closer they are. This will allow her firequake augment to be useful still, unlike the proposed option.

 

Secondly, I think an add on to her passive would be nice. An Idea I had was: Every time Ember casts an ability, there's a chance of setting her on fire (whether the fire does damage is up to you). This would make her current passive actually useful.I really hope you consider something like this, as the proposed changes will absolutely ruin any chance of me using her, which I don't want to see happen. Thank you, and keep up the awesome work!

I love this idea. At current Ember's only survivability are in the CC of her abilities. accelerant causes a mass instant stun, Fire Blast is a aoe pushback/knockdown, and WoF's fire procs cause panic.

At level 50+ if she gets hit, even with survivability mods which take away from her moderate damage, she goes down fast.

I love ember, she's my favorite frame. I've tried maybe a dozen or so builds for her. The change to WoF doesn't change her ability to easily stroll through the solar map with a press 4 and run strategy in the slightest. I can still mod for max efficiency, put in 235% or more range, and a little bit of power str and casually sprint thru any mission lvl 40 or below, which is 90% of the game. I can do very similar things with even greater range and effect with at least a dozen other frames.

All changing WoF energy efficiency and range does is detract from her ability to survive. Before the update, she isn't quite able to survive without going down in sortie 3 eximu missions, as the energy drain hurts her CC even at full efficiency+arcane energize, and the enemies hit hard enough to instantly down her. Change the build all you want, mods for tanking detract from mods that allow for having more CC, so she goes down just as fast. With caution and practice and perhaps a decent team you can avoid death, but she's still very squishy and even with the damage "buff" she's getting will be hard pressed to compete with other damage oriented frames at the 80+ level.  

my current build most used build for her is 200% str, 145% range, 175% efficiency, 58% duration, flash accelerant augment, and a max redirection. This is complimented with a max arcane barrier and max arcane energize, a javlok for self fire proccing and moderate damage, a synoid gammacore for energy replenishment, a powerful riven, and a viral fire massive damage build, and a plague krip polearm modded for range+attack speed+damage+corrosive+fire+status+Condition Overload, and a taxon for cold procs. In this build WoF at lvl 80+ is used mainly as as CC, moderate damage when combined with accelerant, and a proc for Condition Overload. It's a build for fast paced highly mobile gameplay that can at least survive and do some damage at the sortie 3 lvl, mostly. The changes to WoF would make it to where I'd have to hug corners for cover and move around a lot less, and in general do less damage, due to energy consumption and loss of range. At the very least if WoF gets the volt treatment I could keep my ranged CC. and CC is > tankyness for a caster type.

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Theres no point in suggesting stuff anymore, they already confirmed the build is live today, and they dont listen to suggestions or backlash, then the only thing i will have to do is play ember and not use wof cuz its trash, and wont change warframes till it gets buffed ._. Instead of it being ember killing everything low lvl, is ember dying in anything higher than 2 digits in lvl

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52 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

Theres no point in suggesting stuff anymore, they already confirmed the build is live today, and they dont listen to suggestions or backlash...

This is very sad and honestly, I just suggest that if they are just going to do these changes without listening to feedback, they should just put them into the game & just show the changes in patch notes. (It'll bear the same results, (upset players, and same things just barreling into the game san adjustments)) Should they post up their Dev workshop threads, they should just keep these threads locked so they don't have to read what we say, or waste our time typing here to begin with. (We're in the same place we would've been if they just did that.)

 

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1 hour ago, An8rchy said:

Theres no point in suggesting stuff anymore, they already confirmed the build is live today, and they dont listen to suggestions or backlash, then the only thing i will have to do is play ember and not use wof cuz its trash, and wont change warframes till it gets buffed ._. Instead of it being ember killing everything low lvl, is ember dying in anything higher than 2 digits in lvl

Wait, where did they say that? It's already live?! Good god, thanks so much DE, nice to know you really appreciate player feedback.

I guess we'll never see the day when DE starts addressing the blunt enemy scaling then. They'll keep dodging it in favor of tweaking other game aspects because apparently core issues aren't a big deal.

46 minutes ago, Fate_Epsylon said:

This is very sad and honestly, I just suggest that if they are just going to do these changes without listening to feedback, they should just put them into the game & just show the changes in patch notes. (It'll bear the same results, (upset players, and same things just barreling into the game san adjustments)) Should they post up their Dev workshop threads, they should just keep these threads locked so they don't have to read what we say, or waste our time typing here to begin with. (We're in the same place we would've been if they just did that.)

 

Well said.

shredder_-_low_res.jpg

 

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