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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited Part 2

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Please take another look at ember.. At least give her a new passive to make up for the survivability you are taking away from her.

 

Also giving volt the ability to channel his 1 making it an energy draining unlimited power lightning storm would be amazing.

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1 hour ago, An8rchy said:

Fireball is still useless, fireblast is niche, and wof is still getting nerfed to the point where Ember is the new mag

Fire blast is hardly niche, especially with its augment, Mag is great if you aren't stupid

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1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

After having the weekend to observe player responses and read feedback, we’ve been trying out a few further changes, and wanted to update you guys on our progress!

Thank you.  :)

 

Ash: Doesn't affect my previous concern, but neat.

Atlas: Good stuff. This addresses both the desirability of using Petrify and is a buff/usability impprovement for Rubble.

Banshee: I don't see the rationale for this, aside from being another 'this isn't an instant nuke' change (a la M Prime and Polarize being given propagation time), so *shrug*?

Chroma: Thanks for the extra base range on Vex Armor. Will make it more usable in a non-camp scenario. And Vex Armor being recastable? Holy crap.

Ember: The changes are alright, but they don't solve the issues here - Ember is squishy. She survives on WoF straight up murdering stuff, and when it can't anymore (read: late star chart) from its soft CC from heat procs and Fire Quake, or by spamming Accelerant.
If you're taking that from her, she's going to need either survivability or reliable (read: hard) CC.

You don't like WoF being a low level nuke? I'd honestly be fine if you removed  its damage entirely and increased its base range to 20 left the range intact.
Remove the target cap (or speed up its cycle) and make it apply heat procs every ~4 seconds.
That's pretty much what it already does now, past mid-star-chart - this'll just stop the beating around the bush.
And it'll need an additional effect, because unreliable CC in a low area isn't a good sell for an ult.

Fireball's interesting in concept, but I'll have to see how the energy<->damage scales. Flat damage doesn't do well again scaling eHP, and that's before taking Damage 2.0 multipliers into consideration.
And Fire Blast... It's nice to have an in-kit damage boost without needing augments.
That said, while it's got better CC coverage than WoF, Accelerant's got shorter spinup time (read: instant vs. propagation) and worse but more-than-adequate range (since I'm assuming you haven't tanked your range unless you're a straight up buffer).

Gara: Certainly nice to have, but doesn't address my issue.

Mag: Nice.
Though I'm still sorry that Crush doesn't group up affected enemies. :p

As previously, I have no comments on Volt or Zephyr.

1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

As a bonus, two more general changes you'll be happy to hear:

Ooh, very indeed.
Good stuff  :D

Edited by Chroia
Clarification
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Just now, Jabett said:

Fire blast is hardly niche, especially with its augment, Mag is great if you aren't stupid

When he said Ember is the new mag, I think he meant that, like mag, ember is getting hardcore nerfs

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DE, please. Regarding the Ember changes, I know that you guys feel that the players are overreacting and just afraid of change, and that when the changes hit it will all turn out great and we’ll love how she works. That would be fantastic.

 

But if we are right, and if Ember is crippled, her strengths replaced with gimmicks, left struggling to survive missions which other ‘frames breeze through, when will she be revisited? When will the changes be assessed? Will she be continually addressed? Will her survivability be considered, or is she intended to be just not as good as other ‘frames?

Edited by BornWithTeeth
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54 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The Ash improvements look great, that’s solid!

 

On the other hand...guys, you know you’re nerfing Ember past the point of it being justified. The gimmicks you’re adding to her (1) and (2) are just gimmicks and really do not in any way come close to restoring the survivability she loses through the loss of her crowd control. Please take a good long, hard look at what you’re doing to Ember, while bearing in mind the fact that Octavia exists. I truly do not get it. I do not understand the underlying design philosophy here. I can only assume that there is such an underlying philosophy.

Welcome to every argument I ever made about that change when they nerfed her just as her Prime came out initially! Nova Exists, Octavia Exists, hell, Gara's second ability with its stacking damage and damage reduction is just an Overheat you can cast on yourself AND your teammates. Ember's base damage literally has never and will never matter because armored enemies exist, the only way for Ember to remain viable at higher levels is to either have a way of bypassing enemy armor or to have significant survivability.

DE created a problem they don't want to fix; you either have to 'cheat' to kill enemies faster than they can kill you, or you have to make yourself unable to be killed so you have the time necessary to whittle down an enemy's health without getting ragdolled to death. "Damage" frames are so lackluster because the second enemy armor scaling bounces upwards, their damage means nothing unless they innately strip armor or gain infinitely scaling damage in line with the scaling health/armor of the enemies.

 

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A lot of these changes sound like an improvement! :satisfied:

I still think you haven't gone far enough with Ember, though. Having Fire Blast add damage to attacks will help against higher level enemies, but you still haven't addressed her total lack of survivability. If anything, being stuck inside a hula hoop is going to make her an even juicier sitting duck. Maybe add some sort of dodge bonus to players inside the ring? Just, anything to improve survivability?

The Fireball changes aren't bad necessarily, but I can't think of a time when a more damaging fireball (which still does less damage than any weapon I'm carrying) would be useful, same with a small napalm effect. I still think something like a blind, or even a more dramatic fire panic, could improve her odds when overwhelmed.

Traditionally, having squishy casters is a balance of "high risk, high reward" - the problem is that Ember is all risk, no reward. She's not lethal enough to kill higher level enemies, and not tough enough to withstand any real attacks. I really want to ask yourselves, what does Ember bring to a player? What does she bring to a team? Why would I choose this frame over another?

Again, most of the changes being applied seem really cool, and I can't wait to play with all my old toys made new again! But you really need to think about what role you want Ember to play, and if you think she is succeeding in that role. It might be time for her to see a more dramatic rebalance.

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What I would love to see with Zephyr is the aim glide timer reset each time you use her 1 to be able to stay in the air for all the time you want o: what do you think @[DE]Connor

 

Although, Damage on Zephyr's one isn't bad and can change the gameplay a bit especially with the augment but I'm not really sure it's a good idea to dive into the enemy line when her shield won't work at melee range.

 

Still I take all changes happily~ the rework of her 1 sound very nice and I can't wait to try it out.

Also for Airburst, i'm a bit scared of the ragdoll effect planned since nobody really like ragdoll but it can have it uses on some situation. As I said, can't wait to try~

Edited by ---SO---Crystallyser

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)XxIpwneDYoUxX188 said:

 

 

I'd say its probably going to affect it

They specifically said just making the damage scaling to be consistent with other damage boosting abilities because it's a long overdue bug. I doubt they are going to touch Chroma's armor buff because 1, it's not broken and 2, the community is going to react "violently" to that. 

 

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How bout removing WoF ability to damage enemies at all? Give it an innate ability to knockdown enemies and make the Augment turn it into overheat.

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)XxIpwneDYoUxX188 said:

"All these changes"

*Proceeds to look at Chroma's grave*

 

4 chromas can stack the vex armor buff and recast to keep the buff...  u cant see the sheer awsomness?

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Mag's Disarm from the 2nd ability Augment now seems redundant and inferior since Polarize pretty much kind of does the same at a larger range.

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1 minute ago, Vainglory said:

They specifically said just making the damage scaling to be consistent with other damage boosting abilities because it's a long overdue bug. I doubt they are going to touch Chroma's armor buff because 1, it's not broken and 2, the community is going to react "violently" to that. 

 

The problem with the scaling being consistent, in the original post containing the nerf, it was stated that they decided to nerf chroma because he could 1 shot eidolon limbs, now tell me, why should they nerf him because they didn't plan ahead when it comes to making sure their eidolon's aren't destroyed?

And if they are going to do that new formula, it most likely is going to apply to Scorn, since Scorn also was apart of that "bug," since it applies after.

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Um... Yes

1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

CHROMA:

  • Can cast other abilities while using Spectral Scream.
  • Spectral Scream damage now affected by Vex Armor damage buff.
  • Vex Armor aura range increased (currently 18 meters base range).
  • Vex Armor can now be recast to preserve accumulated buffs.

YES

1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

MAG:

  • Increased base energy pool (125 for Mag, 175 for Mag Prime).
  • Crush animations slightly sped up
  • Augment for Polarize reworked - now reads: "Weapons hit by Polarize are jammed for 4 seconds. Robotic enemies hit by Polarize are disabled for 4 seconds."

YES

1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

As a bonus, two more general changes you'll be happy to hear:

  • Focus Passives now apply immediately upon loading into a mission, rather than requiring the brief Operator transition.
  • When interacting with nullifiers, power-created avatars (Atlas’ Rumblers, Nekros’ Shadows, etc) will have their health drained, instead of instantly disappearing.

Y E S

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I was very excited to see this forum, but that Ember rework is still very disappointing. I mean, who uses fireball these days?? Please consider replacing her first ability for overheat, as she needs it because WOF is getting NERFED (it's not a buff). Her fireblast still doesn't seem viable because heat damage does not scale very well, or at all, in late game. As an ember main, it hurts to see these changes, and if DE doesn't consider further changes for Ember, she will be deemed useless.

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As a longtime Zephyr main, I'm afraid the changes to her will simply not be enough to bring her up to par with other frames. I look at the Atlas rework, which is shaping up to be amazing, and I'm just sad that the few small changes Zephyr is getting are only in service of pigeonholing her even further into an ultimately nonviable gimmick: being the "in-the-air frame". Zephyr is and always has been far more of a "wind frame" than she ever was a "sky frame". Short of actually giving her archwing-style flight, which I know you won't do because it would be too similar to Titania, there's no way to make "stay in the air all the time" a viable gameplay strategy in Warframe.

Before this rework was ever announced, here's what I wanted:

Quote

Her current "passive" should remain as-is, although I wouldn't object to her receiving some additional effect(s) while the low gravity remains as a simple inherent part of her.

Combining Dive Bomb with Tail Wind is a popular idea, but it won't change the fact that both of these abilities just do not hold up anymore. They both need to go away, or at the very least, Tailwind should become a channeled ability that lets you continue to fly and change direction until you turn it off.

I'll be honest though...everyone wants Zephyr to be some kind of sky frame, but I really see her more as a ground-speed "Ostrich" frame. With that in mind, I propose a new 1: "Wind Tunnel". Grants increased movement, slide, and parkour speed and, while she is moving, she generates a wind aura that damages and ragdolls enemies out of her way. Perfect for speed runs.

As for an ability to become her new 2, I've thought about this a lot, and I have a notion. Let's face it, one of the reasons Zephyr is not much played is because her powerset offers basically no direct enhancement to her offense, something I feel she definitely could use. How about something like this:

"Slicing Gale" - for X seconds, damage dealt to enemies through shooting or melee gain a Y% chance to deal guaranteed slash status procs. Percent chance affected by power strength, proc damage dependent on the damage that caused it just like normal.

This is just a rough idea, but I like it. Since this isn't tied to any particular weapon type it would not take away her current abilities as an all-rounder, and would add greatly to her damage and utility. Could even have some cool effects, like wind coils around bullet trajectories and melee swipes.

3, Turbulence, is fine and really needs to be left alone, although I will say this: unless Jet Stream is made to be an innate part of the ability, it is the only augment anyone will ever be able to take, unless the other augments receive serious buffs/reworks themselves.

4, Tornado, does need to be changed somehow. Sure, it's a great panic-button CC when someone goes down - and always hilarious fun to watch - but it is too random and limited to be an ultimate ability.

For more directed, effective use, I would like to be able to summon tornados one by one, centered directly on Zephyr, up to four out at a time. Each tornado would have its own independent duration, and would remain stationary where conjured. Instead of the current method of pick-up, enemies entering the tornado's range would first be knocked down, then dragged slowly toward the center before being lifted, allowing time to attack them in their helpless position. Once lifted, they would also remain trapped in the funnel until death or that tornado's duration ends.

Obviously, this is very different from the proposed changes that we ended up getting. I am frankly very disappointed in the lack of ambition being shown with this rework, again comparing it to the excellent and aggressive work being done on Atlas at the same time. Even within the framework of changes you have laid out, I see numerous problems.

The hover aspect of Tail Wind, even if it functions correctly, will just not be a useful tool. Warframe has a lot of enclosed spaces or areas that have deceptively low vertical "out of bounds". There are a lot of places where a vertical Tail Wind will get you nothing but a black screen and a teleport back onto the ground. If you can't control the height at which she stops to hover, there will be trouble there. Also, please do not make it a charge input. Charging  involves standing still and doing nothing for a moment, which in Warframe is often a great way to get killed. Even when the hover is executed successfully, and in an area where you can actually have a nontrivial aerial vantage point...there you are, up in the air standing still. Zephyr is THE mobility frame, and this just seems completely at odds with the rest of her playstyle.

The Tornado change that will allow trapped enemies to take damage taken by the tornadoes is a potentially great change that, again, will be dependent on the specifics of how it works. Currently there is no way to critical-hit the tornados, or to status-proc them. Will this be changed so that those will also transmit to enemies? A lot of damage will be lost if they aren't. Also, the notes say that tornados will do "a better job" of keeping enemies confined in the funnel. It really needs to be "a 100% reliable job", or we still have the same problem we always had. Finally, how will these mechanics interact with bosses and/or other large enemies that cannot be lifted by the tornadoes?

The real issue though, is summoning all four tornadoes in one place, and then being expected to slowly drag them one-by-one to where you want them...only to have to do so again when the duration expires. PLEASE allow us to summon tornadoes individually, one at a time, up to a maximum of four. Each tornado should have its own separate lifespan, and remain positioned where it was summoned. This will make the skill vastly more granular and precise in its use.

Then there's her new ability, Air Burst. Zephyr absolutely needed a brand new power, and it needs to be a very good one to help raise her profile. All we know is that it's a projectile that will explode in an AoE and ragdoll enemies. Honestly the dev stream did an extremely poor job of showcasing this ability, it was impossible to see what it looked like or how it worked in detail. How much damage will it do? How forceful will the ragdoll be? Direct-damage warframe abilities are often weak, because their power simply does not scale up appropriately to match higher level enemies. Please ensure that this ability offers substantial and scaling damage; lack of respectable damage output is one of the main reasons Zephyr has been in the basement for a long time. As to the CC side of the ability, as we know from Tornado, ragdolls can actually be a bad thing, knocking enemies around instead of killing them and actually making it harder to do so.

Finally I wish to bring up her largely unused augment for Tornado, Funnel Clouds. This augment simply cannot remain untouched, as it is currently completely useless. Tornadoes that cannot pick up enemies are of no value now and will be even more useless by comparison after these changes. I propose a complete redesign whereby the movement speed of the tornados is DRASTICALLY increased, such that they can easily keep up with Zephyr as she runs through a mission, yet they will also remain at a close, fixed distance from her. This would give Tornado an "on the move" role functionality that is completely different from its normal use, as it is a very stationary ability by default.

Although I have endeavored to give feedback within the framework of changes you have laid out, let me again reiterate: As a longtime Zephyr main, these changes are insufficient to give her the tools and synergies she needs to compete as a truly viable frame. We waited four long years for this moment. Please do not let this chance slip by without making real, substantive and radical changes that will ensure Zephyr's long-term health and playability. Look past thematic gimmicks and give her a true and sound gameplan. We who love Zephyr are counting on you.

Edited by Cryssoberyl
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Just watched the GIF on Embers new Fireball charge and I got to say a 45 point energy drain for what the ability does is not worth it.  Noone is going to use that at that energy cost especially when energy has to be conserved for whenever WoF is triggered.  Then there is still no addressing of survivibility.  Please stop with these the band aids and fix Ember properly. 

I have not purchased my Vault pack with Ember in it and won't until she is fixed and I am sure there are many others out there waiting as well.  No threats just saying its our money and you have to give us a reason to purchase and a broken frame is not a reason.  Still love you DE you are so many tiers higher than Bungie you actually care and interact with your community.  Thank you.

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17 minutes ago, Vainglory said:

Calculation changes only affect the damage output, not his armor.

That would be nice! But in the hidden FAQ section at the bottom of the previous rework thread, they mentioned both. Which could be a mistake! I'd like that.

 

Q: What is the new formula for damage and armor calculation?
A: Instead of [(Base * Mods) * Vex Armor], it is now [Base * (Vex + Mods)], like all other damage boosting abilities.

Edited by OvisCaedo
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From what I'm seeing: Ember's Fireball can be charged to do the same thing as Fire Blast's ring, and shooting through the Fire Blast ring does the same thing as her Accelerant augment... I'm disappointed. I have to be very negative about this - these changes are functionally nothing. This needs to be done better. Why not a cool/effective change like Fireball detonating heat status on enemies for an AOE explosion, and give the explosion the same properties as Oberon's Smite. And I thought many had asked for some form of the previous Overheat to be worked into Fire Blast.

Mag and other shield-based frames still die to toxin and slash status. Frames really should take that damage to their shields. Polarize is still a huge eye sore on night maps, and could be reverted back to having a range only.

I appreciate Dive Bomb being sorted out!

Edited by Neightrix
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1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

BANSHEE:

  • Although still a singular cast allowing free movement, Resonating Quake will only hit enemies once as it expands outward, dealing a mass of damage at once.

This is an okay change, as long as the damage of the hit is big enough, comparable to that of the other warframes like Rhino (stomp) and Frost (avalanche). As for the banshee's fourth ability in general without the augment, I hope you can figure out something for it, it is quite awful as it is right now and it should not be as it is currently (low damage, low range, roots you in place, it really pushes you away from using it now that the old augment is gone).

Ember:

The third ability and the ring of fire it leaves behind is quite awful as well. I think it could be improved by making it work the similar way as Oberon's second ability, the hallowed ground works. So basically Ember would not create a ring of fire, but would set the ground on fire instead and the enemies standing on it would get heat damage and possibly heat proc. I know this is kinda copy/pasting an ability but the ability as it is now is just really meh, but changing it a bit would make it more interesting. As with hollowed ground, you could recast the ability multiple times, making the damage scale up from multiple hits it then creates.

The world on fire radius also should be reconsidered and finetuned slightly. At default the radius is 15 meters, which would ultimately hit 7,5 meters after the ability gains the 100% stack. This range is basically close quarters combat range similar to melee range and feels really short. On the other hand if you are using 280% power range, the radius is currently 42 meters which would be 21 meters after the stacks go up, which is pretty much the same as the current range with just using stretch (145%). So I think the min range should be slightly higher, but max range should not be changed.

Edited by runx0
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1 minute ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

4 chromas can stack the vex armor buff and recast to keep the buff...  u cant see the sheer awsomness?

I could get a harrow, octavia, trinity, and rhino or any other frame that can boost teamates damage. Trin to keep the energy up

And if you want the 4 chroma stacks to be useful, you are going to need alot of energy, a good chroma build will have high strength and duration, and in turn, low efficiency and range.

To get use of those buffs on eachother, you'll have to camp,

Not to mention, there are other frames that have more abilities that are useful, such as harrow, he can damage boost with his crits, AND, all of his other abilities are useful, or octavia, Her 1+2+4 combo quite well, and her 3rd ability can make her teamates impossible to kill, AND, you could get the same amount of damage buffs easily

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