[DE]Megan

The Temporary Future of Warframe Trials

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As someone who has played all 3 raids tons of times , Raids were one of those things that actually required good teamwork to achieve . The people who play raids everyday ( or frequently) know how important it is for them in this game. 

While i support DE's decision finally taking time to rework raids , I'm still gonna be totally against the temporary removal of them . Things can still be worked on without necessarily removing them from the game .

Raids are one of the few game modes that let players win something with equal amounts of hard work and form higher level communities. 

*I'm totally against this and I hope that the Devs reconsider this change.

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The fact a few(tiny portion) of warframe players dislike it, doesnt mean anything :) De often make changes that often upset a tiny portion of there playerbase, as this thread clearly shows

 

De have stated multiple times in devstreams the amount of players that do raids, they also have stats, feel free to approach them yourself instead of getting upset that i can quote them :) Im sure i will get more notifications from this thread as it seems you lot are extremely defensive about it, however, i do not care :)

Edited by xXHobbitXx
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52 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

So, you mean to say that the raids are less of a concern for you, rather that you enjoy the the raids more for what rewards they offer, rather than the actual content.

The Player Limit, Multi-Player/Step Stages (requires more than one player to do x), Enemy Level, and Rewards are the only differences from the Teralyst.

And what is this? Unique in that they are not a grind? They are a grind, with additional steps. Most notably that of communication. They are a long grind if you're not prepared. And require a good clan to even get a group together.

You'll probably say: Well then they should fix that instead. To which you would have a point, were DE's focus not on other things.

If players mostly played this content more because of how it's different from the base game, and not for the rewards. I could see leaving it in with their shift in focus.

But removing them will allow DE to get some of those raid players into Eidolon Hunting. Who will in turn hopefully provide good feedback on how to make this 'mini-raid' more interactive and enjoyable. Perhaps even to a level of complexity for some of the Eidolons that it could be comparable with a full on raid itself.

There is a place for raids of the length of LoR and JV, but for now it's best to consolidate and try to focus and improve the product at hand. The one that has the largest player-base.

I was specifically replying to these statements:

"And if they were to leave the raids in-game, while still allowing the arcanes to be gotten from Teralysts, people would still complain that their raids are now 'useless'. And complain that not only are the raids bugged, but now they're not as rewarding for all the effort put into them."
"Why are you playing Warframe? The basis of the game is a grind, not mass teamwork."

Sorry if that wasn't clear enough. Yes, raids are a grind, like everything in the game, but they offer something that nothing else in the grind does: the need to work with your team. You can argue that the Teralyst also does this, but Teralyst provides absolutely no thought provocation or challenge. It's a grind to be a grind, it's not hard to do or hard to learn like the raids. It's simply hard to maximize your efficiency and get the most per night.

They don't require a good clan to get a group together, there is a Discord server called the Warframe Raid School Bus where people will teach members how to play raids, and then they can go and host/join a group for themselves. There are many other Discords as well that will run raids. Recruiting chat is a bit more risky, but there's still a frequent amount of raids there.

It's been months since PoE released. Everyone has given it a shot, and people who haven't will not try it because the raids are being deleted. I'm aware logistics are against us, but that won't stop me from voicing my disagreement.

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Iv been playing Warframe for a few years now and this is the 1st time iv felt the need to post in your forums.

My Raid group are #1 for speed running LoR and NM LoR on Xbox legit. We get together once a day at the same time everyday to do our raids. Iv been raiding for along time with around 800 raids completed. I only play Warframe for the raids, while im waiting for raid time i go and grind or sit in trade. The last few months our groups goal has been to get the top 100 times as at least 95% us. Which we are close to achieving. 

In one bad decision you are taking this away from us. We will no longer be meeting up everyday, we will not be able to discuss potential new strats, dam we may never even team up as a group again as we only raid together for the most part. Taking the raids away will destroy communities, friendships not to mention the market for selling Arcanes.

And you are doing this to get PoE active. We are not idiots, its extremely obvious. We know that PoE is DEs new baby and that you want it to succeed. Im not trying to be mean here, just honest, but its pathetic to watch you guys trying to get everyone into PoE. 20 days of Plague Star, Ghoul Bounties i thought the biggest laugh was 2 months of the unvaulted relics being only available via plains bounties. Only to see in Alliance chat this morning the news of Trials being taken away and Arcanes to be farmable in...of coarse PoE. 

Please stop trying to literally force us into the plains, im embarrassed for your company atm. Whoever is the one putting forth these ideas needs to be let go. Because this will slowly kill Warframe. Im extremely disappointed with with and will 100% be taking a break from the game once Trials are removed.

Edit- I would also like to add that raids ARE accessible to low level players. I was MR4 when i started raiding, everyone in that old raid group were MR10 and under. It took along time but we got the raids done. Iv taken MR2s through the LoRs. Its really not difficult. And the raids have always been buggy, your reasons are just gaslighting everyone.

Edited by (XB1)Squazmire
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As someone who played LoR early on in Warframe 2 years back, I'm really glad they're going away. I'm MR24 (soon to be 25) and have been with Warframe since 3 years now; I had my first Raid experience when I was about MR8 and it was nothing short of terrible.

The nature of the high-stress, highly-coordinated team endeavor- Raids can attract a lot of toxicity and hostility to players who botch up a step or be unfamiliar with what to do, it's unnerving to newer players (100-300 hours) and can possibly make them put the game down completely. They bring out the worst in players; and while admittedly the high-staked rewards may justify it for many people- the way Raids work need to be fundamentally changed to make it inviting for newer players. They shouldn't have to watch 15-20minute long videos on YouTube or (I'm grateful this exists, I wish it did when I did my first Raid) attend Raid schoolbuses.

Even if they're not meant for newer players- they should still be accessible to veteran players who've never played them before and be intuitive enough to grasp what's happening without the guidance of fellow squadmates; or alternatively- have them be a storyline of sorts where players initially play alone/ with AI (like the index; it executed it beautifully for the most part) to grasp the mechanics of the gamemode, and be up to speed when running it with others.

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Just now, xXHobbitXx said:

The fact a few(tiny portion) of warframe players dislike it, doesnt mean anything :) De often make changes that often upset a tiny portion of there playerbase, as this thread clearly shows


So where is your numerical source, why do you think that your personal enjoyment should stop other players from doing content and something that interests me : 

 

17 minutes ago, xXHobbitXx said:

A)I play all content available, just find raids boring, unnecessary and completely pointless, do whatever you want in game, the FACT is , only tiny portion of community does raids

 


https://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=xXHobbitXx
??

Only 589 536 groups (4-8 players) have tried LoR normal, 328 383 nightmare and 197 586 JV. And this is if the site has all stats.

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53 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Disagree with you. Raids are completely unfun and provided nothing to this game, if they removed this and conclave and focused more on the horde shooting aspect of the game. Then I am satisfied.

 

I rather have good content for veterans that is consistent with the game horde shooting which it excels in than  trials. they have been as waste of resources and few people play them

RSB is also nothing special, they have no leverage in raids.

"Raid Vault" was not necessary, may not be fun for u anymore but ther's still ppl who enjoy them even if they are a minority compared to the rest of playerbase such a throw away could have been saved waste of resources or not they have the right to decide on their own

on how i see it 

all this is realted to the next plains up and beyond

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3 minutes ago, xXHobbitXx said:

De have stated multiple times in devstreams the amount of players that do raids, they also have stats, feel free to approach them yourself instead of getting upset that i can quote them :) Im sure i will get more notifications from this thread as it seems you lot are extremely defensive about it, however, i do not care :)

I got you dude:

zbC8BWp.png

Can we remove Arena please? Also since Defection was quite hated on Reddit a while ago, we should just remove that as well. If the amount of players is the problem, than DE would remove a whole lot of content from this game. Trials are a big portion of some players' experiences in this game. I would never have found the clan I am in if it was not for Trials. At-least provide some statistics for your claim. DE has made changes in the past that upset players, but removing more and more end-game content is not about that. It is about fundamentally ruining the game for many players. There is no instance where removing Trials has a more positive impact than just leaving them alone until they want to come back to them.

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Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Only 589 536 groups (4-8 players) have tried LoR normal, 328 383 nightmare and 197 586 JV. And this is if the site has all stats.

To add to this Christx fails to record sometimes and has missed entire days and at one point almost a week due to how often the site crashes, so even more raids than this have been done

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11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)PerverseWolf said:

I don't care how long it takes them aslong as they fix the damn things.

The problem with that is they have a track record of saying they are temporarily removing a feature or game mode to fix it, and then years later we are still waiting for it. I have no reason to believe, despite what they say in the OP, that they intend on bringing trials back any time soon after removing them at the end of the month.

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What people are trying to do here is to protect an entire community of people no matter how "big" or "small" you think it might be. I don't see the purpose of removing the trials, if you don't like it then don't play it. But for many people it's one of the main reasons to log on in the first place. So what is the real reason for its removal? :\ Why is conclave still around? 

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I'm kinda holding out that the devstream will shed some positive light on this. 

I can understand moving the arcanes to the plains since the raids aren't super popular but outright removing the raids themselves is perplexing. Unless there is a significant drain on resources to maintain them and I can't imagine there is. 

So maybe they are finally getting an upgrade/rework?

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1 minute ago, --Q--Voltage said:

I got you dude:

zbC8BWp.png

Can we remove Arena please? Also since Defection was quite hated on Reddit a while ago, we should just remove that as well. If the amount of players is the problem, than DE would remove a whole lot of content from this game. Trials are a big portion of some players' experiences in this game. I would never have found the clan I am in if it was not for Trials. At-least provide some statistics for your claim. DE has made changes in the past that upset players, but removing more and more end-game content is not about that. It is about fundamentally ruining the game for many players. There is no instance where removing Trials has a more positive impact than just leaving them alone until they want to come back to them.

thanks for proving my point, 1.29% trial lmao

Edited by xXHobbitXx
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6 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:


So where is your numerical source, why do you think that your personal enjoyment should stop other players from doing content and something that interests me : 

 


https://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=xXHobbitXx
??

Only 589 536 groups (4-8 players) have tried LoR normal, 328 383 nightmare and 197 586 JV. And this is if the site has all stats.

simple answer, this isnt original account, nor is it the last account i made, but it is the account i use on everyday basis as of now, keep trying though :) As my 1st post stated, just alot of very vocal raid players doenst make it worthwhile or popular :) The guy above just proved my point for me, the 1.29% over the many years its been around, that tiny portion of gameplay for that tiny portion of players

Edited by xXHobbitXx
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Please I beg you to reconsider this decision

IF you do this its like a slap is the face to the Warframe players that have been there from the  beginning and put several thousand + hours in this game

PLEASE DONT DO THIS 

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Just now, xXHobbitXx said:

simple answer, this isnt original account, nor is it the last account i made, but it is the account i use on everyday basis as of now


Sure thing, and I have a founder ACC.

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Just now, xXHobbitXx said:

thanks for proving my point, 1.29% trail lmao

picard-facepalm.jpg

2 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

If the amount of players is the problem, than DE would remove a whole lot of content from this game. [...] It is about fundamentally ruining the game for many players. There is no instance where removing Trials has a more positive impact than just leaving them alone until they want to come back to them.

If you want to comment on people in here, at least read others' comments before responding. Please look as Trial was not the lowest point on that graph.

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21 minutes ago, OwlPeeps said:

Bleh... More content behind PoE. Good for people who like it, bad for people who don't like it, even moreso for players like myself whose (who's?) PCs are unable to run the Plains, even with the lowest settings. Some people might be able to afford a new PC, some can't, I'll like myself. So, maybe you could optimize Plains to be more potato friendly if you're putting lots of content behind it. Sorry. 

Not only the fact that many people can not run the plains. Behind all this lies a truth that we find difficult to accept, this game does not want its veteran players. Every update, every review, every little addition is made in order to facilitate the experience of new players, on the slope of belittling or even removing what old players still enjoy and what still we can do in this game after several years playing.

This is unfair because we did not have it easy when we were new, and I do not remember that they did anything about it, we who saw this game grow, we saw every change, every good and bad decision, we have supported all this time to this company known as Warframe, we deserve more than that.

I fervently hope that they will really add what they are "temporarily" removing. I hope they are not vain hopes.

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1 hour ago, Aggh said:

 

This guy gets it.  Most of the people here defending raids are either mad that they won't have their own corner of the plat market anymore, or they are seriously overestimating how many people actually care about trials.  Do people seriously think DE would shut down trials if there was a meaningful number of people playing them?

Because content actually needs to at least help pay for itself a little.  If your logic here worked in the real world, the Amazing Eternals would still be in development :/

Please produce statistics to support your claims. Otherwise, I'd refrain from making such generalizing comments about a sizable subset of the playerbase.

"Most people here defending raids are mad... seriously overestimating..."

Those words without numbers to back them up have little meaning other than to serve as leverage for tenuous claims like yours.

"Do people seriously think DE would shut down trials if there was a meaningful number of people playing them?"

The average player count on Steam alone for the past 2 months have been approximately 45,000. Factoring in players off Steam, I'd wager it'd be at about a 80,000 odd playing at any one point in time.

Just from the last 1.5 hours recorded on trials.wf, which pulls all recorded raids directly from content.warframe, the number of raids completed were near a 100. Factoring in average player count of 6, that's already 600 people. If you'd remove repeated raids done by the same group, that'd be a ballpark figure of 400-500 people participating just within 1/16 of an entire 24 hour day cycle. Extrapolating that figure, that's about 6.4k to 8k players in one day's cycle participating in raids alone.

Considering the average playtime of raids and taking the average player's game-time on Warframe to be an hour or 2 hours (which is pretty reasonable by "real-life" standards), it's fairly safe to say that those 6.4k-8k players put in enough game-time to make up for almost 10% of the game-time across a 24h window by ALL players. This is of course taking the conditions/assumptions stated above to be true; which have been adjusted to fit a realistic approximation as best as my limited knowledge allows me.

I'm not sure how 10% of your playerbase isn't considered "meaningful" as compared to say Conclave. For any DE member reading this, I'm sure you've grown tired of hearing Conclave being bashed over and over again, but past statistics and analysis has already indicated that the PVP gamemode suffers even more from a lack of activity compared to every other mission type in-game.

(EDIT: It was pointed out later in the thread that number of players across a 24h window is severely underestimated in above analysis. Counter-argued that average play time for each representative player could be even lower factoring people who login just for daily tribute, sortie, afk in liset, or trade chat. Point below still stands though.)

So please do your best to convince me on this claim. If you think I'm just pulling figures out of my tin-foil hat then you're welcome to ask for statistics directly from @[DE]Megan with a full break down of player participation % and game time %. I too would like to see it - until (I stress) a reliable set of statistics can be produced, I'm not budging from my position. This means that I'm not interested in a simple pie-chart telling me X% of missions done today were raids - no, I want solid, raw data with metrics recorded and presented in as unbiased a manner as possible.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/751102-new-frames-only-acquired-via-conclave/?page=4
This 1 year old forum post is relevant, in particular the first comment on the 4th page by @SevenLetterKWord. Apologies for the notification, but thank you for supporting my point.

Also, for the record, for someone who's done each of the 3 raids nearly over 500 times each, and hasn't sold an arcane in trade chat for a few months, I couldn't care less about the arcane rewards and platinum returns. So that makes at least one against your poorly constructed "most people" claim. I'm sure the number will increase.

 

Edited by InsomnIaC.
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