The Temporary Future of Warframe Trials

[Little]

Not happy, Trials should not be removed from the game -_-

[Stoner]

3 minutes ago, Rhokkes said:

Remember that raids are not going to be totally removed. In addition, I have faith that they will be "coming up with something new" along with this rework.

I will save that quote of yours. Cya in 3 years when they decide to reintroduce raids again.

[Ceteruler]

Just now, Stoner said:

I will save that quote of yours. Cya in 3 years when they decide to reintroduce raids again.

Yeah, I know what you mean, unfortunately.

[SirWolfen]

I see no reason to re-purpose the raid which is one of the literal few end game modes in the game to have it be a gateway to endgame? Why not re-purpose the normal raids and have nightmare be their end-game counter part.

[(PSN)Filthy113]

Good riddance to trials honestly I hope they stay gone for good. 

[Jeoxz]

I haven't done as many trials as most people here. I am sad but do agree with them being gone for the time and hope they come back better than before.Here are some problems that I had:

-Much more repetitive than normal missions, the maze-like style of tilesets doesn't lend well to being repeated over an over in the same order.

-Playstyle, in other missions you can do it your way, you can defend the pod from the top, blocking the entrance, killing everything or CC, stealth or all AoE dance party. In LoR specially it's all the same steps, standing in the same spots, always CCing, etc.

-Frame choice, almost all groups require specific frames with specific builds (Eidolons also started to have this problem but it's not that bad). 

-Difficulty, the difficulty should come more from how to defeat and enemy rather than how to get to it. In LoR 90% of the time is going from place to place until Vayhek is vulnerable and dies in 5 seconds, he's way more durable when we encounter him in Earth where the fight is continuous from the start.

Finally, if they aren't occupying a big part of DE's resources, you can just leave them as they are until their replacement arrives.

 

[kuryux]

I understand the need for content for new players, but remember those new players in a few weeks will be experienced players and wont stay in game without interesting and challenging content.

Right now, besides daily sorties, raids are among the few interesting things for veterans. OFC, there is kuva/ducat/focus farming, but those arent exactly interesting and exciting, just a need to do thing.

[Stoner]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Filthy113 said:

Good riddance to trials honestly I hope they stay gone for good. 

Have raids bullied you? Did they call you mean names? 

Not really sure why you'd say good riddance if can you like.. just not play them. It's 100% fine to not like them though, but wishing they never come back because you dislike them is evil. 

[(PSN)renatomiau]

Well, for me its great Because i never end a trial succesfully.. But.. Eliminate them totally? It sound bad.. But.. If change the prices?

[ShadowElysium]

Hello all, Shadow here. I'm not sure if I've ever taken the time to post on the forums in the past, but I felt the overwhelming need to chime in here to voice my complete disapproval of the "temporary" removal of trials from Warframe. This post is probably going to end up a bit lengthy, so please bear with me.

I'd like to preface this post by giving a little bit of my personal background and experience with your game. I started playing in 2014, when the game was still relatively new, and took a long hiatus about two years in. I returned to the game a few months ago, and have largely enjoyed my time playing since. One of the biggest factors keeping me active in the game has been Trials, which I have run around 40 times each since my return. I'm far from one of the great speed-runners, or one of the RSB veterans, but I too have quite a big stake in this proposed change. I have personally taught/helped teach upwards of 30-40 players LoR/LoRNM as well as parts of JV in my previous alliance, and have very recently transitioned into building a clan with a close friend of mine to be dedicated to guiding players, experienced and not, through this (and other, but particularly this) content.

I want to start by directly addressing part of the original post made by @[DE]Megan

“We are looking to repurpose existing Raid content to make the game mode accessible for lower-level players while also preparing them for this end-game content as they continue to progress.” 

I feel like I am in a good position to say that there is hardly an issue with specifically low-level inaccessibility, but rather general inaccessibility. I first started doing raids when my account was MR 8. Furthermore, we have taught a number of players under MR 6 to raid, with no real problems caused by their lack of end-game gear. One of our members even has a "Raids-only" account, which started raiding at MR 0 with MK-1 weapons just for fun. This doesn't even account for the challenge raids that are done, where players come in with minimally ranked weapons/frames, sometimes even only their operators. My point is as follows: it is not gearing/player level that prevents people from being able to run raids, but rather the lack of appropriate in-game support. Raids are puzzle based, and thus have a learning curve, because players will not immediately know how to do the puzzles. It's a welcome change of pace from the focus on "kill all the things" and requires team coordination, communication, and a good amount of investment to get into.

One of the biggest things keeping players from doing raids is simply that they do not know what to do during each stage. Adding in-raid tips in the same vein as those given during the Eidolon fights would go a long way to fixing this issue. This applies to both veteran players and new players equally; it is entirely a knowledge gap and not a gear/level gap, and I feel you have vastly misunderstood the root of your problem.

Secondly, as has been mentioned by a number of posters before myself, I feel that the following claim is also incredibly false:

"Taking down a Teralyst mirrors the tactics of a Trial in terms of teamwork and communication, but can also be done as a lower-level player if properly prepared."

I'm going to be completely blunt here: No, it doesn't. Taking down a Teralyst can be done solo. Teamwise, there are a few hacks to be done, relatively easy lure management, and then switching between your operator and frame to attack during different phases. I almost never have to be worried about what my teammate is doing at any given time during an Eidolon hunt. Compare this to, say, the second stage of LoR, where teammates need to be standing in the appropriate places at the appropriate times, while managing CC on the room, while managing the random Napalms/Powerfists that spawn, while paying attention to where the core is, etc. Or, perhaps more dramatically, the nerve-killing stage of JV, which IMO is some of the most complicated content to master in Warframe as it stands. This doesn't even account for the team-wide optimization/communication required to speedrun these raids. The Eidolon hunt simply doesn't match up in terms of communication, engagement, and complexity to that of raids.

Among the other problems that raids actually have are the numerous, and I do mean extremely numerous, bugs, some of which that have been unfixed since 2015 when Raids were released. There is a very dedicated community that you are already aware of that has compiled logs and detailed evidence/explanations of many of these. Additionally, as has already been addressed, a lot of the Arcanes are very underwhelming.

I urge you to reconsider "temporarily" shutting down raids, as I firmly believe you will only manage to both alienate an admittedly small but passionate part of the community, as well as remove what I and many others consider to be the most engaging content in the game for the foreseeable future. I agree that there are many kinks that need to be worked out, and we, the community, are here to help. But this is not the answer.

Best,

ShadowElysium

[kuryux]

15 minutes ago, Rhokkes said:

Remember that raids are not going to be totally removed. In addition, I have faith that they will be "coming up with something new" along with this rework.

Dark sectors have been "put on hold" for 2 years now. Thats DEs way of saying they are removing from the game without raising too much alarm. And based on what they said, its clearly not coming back ever again. R.I.P. raids

[Aldrr]

With the community's "experienced? no? then shove off" attitude, I never had the opportunity to run any of the trials. Maybe I was looking in the wrong places. Being an experienced Harrow on eidolon hunts, however, I'm looking forward to see what we can earn from which teralyst.

And if they do come up with a new iteration for the trials, maybe keep a few arcanes on the eidolons, regardless?

[(PSN)dibu3o5-d3]

3 years playing this game, 2 years doing raids and day 1 since jv. You took the tower keys i didnt complain, you started bringing in 3, 4 primes and i didnt complain.. and you are right its for the future of the game and to bring more players in. But this time, i dont know.. im just one player compared to the millions of players in the community and the countless that will come in. But this time it might just be a log on to get the daily log in which eventually turn into a delete app. Thank you for the memories, and the money i've invested on our game i dont regret it. But this, this a knife in my back, for the third time and this time its right in the position where i cant reach it from over the shoulder or from the bottom side.. because if i pull the knife out my heart will bleed out.. Thank you DE for the memories thank you warframe.

[AdunSaveMe]

5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

much like the Dark Sector Armistice, for the time being

The dark sector armstice was ages ago and we've heard nothing about any update to it. Is this supposed to be encouraging?

[Santa]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)dibu3o5-d3 said:

3 years playing this game, 2 years doing raids and day 1 since jv. You took the tower keys i didnt complain, you started bringing in 3, 4 primes and i didnt complain.. and you are right its for the future of the game and to bring more players in. But this time, i dont know.. im just one player compared to the millions of players in the community and the countless that will come in. But this time it might just be a log on to get the daily log in which eventually turn into a delete app. Thank you for the memories, and the money i've invested on our game i dont regret it. But this, this a knife in my back, for the third time and this time its right in the position where i cant reach it from over the shoulder or from the bottom side.. because if i pull the knife out my heart will bleed out.. Thank you DE for the memories thank you warframe.

Couldn't of said it better myself, it's been a fun run warframe

[Mattoropael]

2 minutes ago, Aldrr said:

With the community's "experienced? no? then shove off" attitude, I never touched the trials, personally. Maybe I was looking in the wrong places. Being an experienced Harrow on eidolon hunts, however, I'm looking forward to see what we can earn from which teralyst.

And if they do come up with a new iteration for the trials, maybe keep a few arcanes on the eidolons, regardless?

Recruiting has never been the best place for raids. Even those "Experienced or GTFO" groups tend to fail miserably. We've always recommended aspiring raiders to either join a newbie-friendly raid clan, or the Raid School Bus Discord server, but I guess that matters little now.

I'm highly suspicious that they'd even give raids the raid arcanes back even if they do come back (and looking at Dark Sector, they won't). Pardon me for donning a tinfoil hat, but the timing is way too coincidental for anything else than "we can't think of anything good for the new Eidolon boss rewards".

[Ceteruler]

5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

On numerous Devstreams we have mentioned/discussed the future of Trials. On Devstream 75, Scott mentioned “We are looking to repurpose existing Raid content to make the game mode accessible for lower-level players while also preparing them for this end-game content as they continue to progress.”

The use of the word "repurpose" does give some validation to the fears of many that this rework will come at the expense of the endgame player and veteran player experience. However, it's important to remember that if the goal really is to make the content more accessible to low level players, that does not necessarily mean the final product will exist for new players specifically.

I have a feeling that a lot rests on the phrase "make more accessible." If it has not already been offered, some clarification on what that means might be helpful to the apprehensive community.

[OniDax]

When you eventually bring back Dark Sectors and Trials, please for the love of God do not make them PvP-only. You completely killed Dark Sectors when you did that. Maintain a focus on PvE for Dark Sectors and Trials. Do not use these systems as a way to try to save Conclave.

[ShadowElysium]

1 minute ago, Mattoropael said:

Recruiting has never been the best place for raids. Even those "Experienced or GTFO" groups tend to fail miserably. We've always recommended aspiring raiders to either join a newbie-friendly raid clan, or the Raid School Bus Discord server, but I guess that matters little now.

I'm highly suspicious that they'd even give raids the raid arcanes back even if they do come back (and looking at Dark Sector, they won't). Pardon me for donning a tinfoil hat, but the timing is way too coincidental for anything else than "we can't think of anything good for the new Eidolon boss rewards".

 

The obvious answer, if they wanted to go the route of Arcanes, would simply be to make new Arcanes.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

On numerous Devstreams we have mentioned/discussed the future of Trials. On Devstream 75, Scott mentioned “We are looking to repurpose existing Raid content to make the game mode accessible for lower-level players while also preparing them for this end-game content as they continue to progress.”

 

Prepare them for what end game content - the end game content that you are removing? The forums are littered with veterans requesting MORE endgame content and instead you remove what little there is.  I don't even know how to respond to that.

Quote

In an upcoming Mainline Update this week on PC, Shrine of the Eidolon, we will be adding Arcanes as rewards to the Teralysts (specific variants TBD) on the Plains of Eidolon.

It has been mentioned before, but bears mentioning again - people are getting burnt out on PoE and constantly forcing it down players throats is not the solution to keeping long term players.  First it was the grind to get the new Standing, the new resources, the quills, etc. Then Plague Star again and again, Then Ghouls Again and Again. Then vaulted Relics AGAIN AND AGAIN. Now you want us to do this daily?  No thanks.

Quote

Taking down a Teralyst mirrors the tactics of a Trial in terms of teamwork and communication,

I'm really not sure what game you are playing, but this isn't even close to true.  taking down a teralyst solo is trivial, and requires no teamwork or communication.  Obviously we have no idea of the mechanics of the "new and improved" teralyst but I'd be surprised if in short order its not another trivial task ESPECIALLY if your goal is to open it to new players.  And if you think nerfing chroma (now we find the real reason) is going to change that be prepared for disappointment.

And it should go without saying that getting some of the best gear in the game SHOULD be hard.  Should be challenging. 

The disconnect here between players and Devs is mind boggling.  Right from @[DE]Steve 's comment about the raids only being done by hardcore speed runners to the basic misunderstanding of WHY so many people have a hard time getting into the raids.  Far more people WANT to do the raids that can't -

• but they can't because there is no matchmaking lobby for them.
• Because the key is required, and if the host with the key gets disconnected the whole raid fails (why not require NO key or EVERYONE to have a key so it can host migrate like every other content). 
• Because the initial game stopping bugs (that btw regardless of what people yap about have been fixed.  There are no more game breaking bugs in the raids than there are in any other WF content.  I do them everyday and there are no show stopping problems.

Then there are those who don't want to do the raids 

• because by in large the rewards are not rewarding - IE all the completely useless arcanes. Well that should have been an easy fix.
• Or they don't like missions requiring teamwork and coordination - This will not get fixed by moving it some other content that purportedly requires teamwork and coordination.  Tell me - on the forums do you see more people complaining about the eidolon fights or the raids?  Because from what I read - its PoE & the Eidolons and the constant force feeding of this content.

If the raids are CURRENTLY hugely expensive to maintain - say so. If its for any other reason BUT that - DE is severely misguided as to how players view the raids and this decision is just evidence of that.

And to use the Dark Sectors as an example of "Temporary"... thats just laughable. 

 

Quote

we have some top-level ideas to revisit in the distant future in terms of a redesign,

Are we really supposed to believe this? Or believe it when Steve said "there will be no more new raids".

I'm not trying to speak for the community as a whole - but I do speak for a large number of people I know, that I play with,  that have played the game for years, play every day, and do the raids every day, have done your PoE every day since its release, maxed your focus school BEFORE the 2.5 nerf to farming requirements.  The conversation during todays raids kept coming back to "I'm not sure what I'm going to continue to do in WF" and thats sad.  

Lastly and most obviously - if the intent is to bring back the raids in some form, leave them as is until that day.

TL;DR;

I think its a poor decision based on erroneous assumptions of player behavior and player desires. And removing "end game" content when that is what the game lacks is particularly laughable and not a way to keep long time players (neither existing nor mold new ones).

 

[Stoner]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

snip

Well written, thank you.

[WolfTitan]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

-snip-

Bravo, bravo, my friend. 100% true. 

[kuryux]

Community: AW svcks.
DE: throws more AW in your face!

Community: this kids are boring and silly.
DE: eat that operator raw, tenno!

Community: trials are bugged, need better rewards and better matchmaking.
DE: Good bye trials!

 

[Captain]

4 hours ago, ChronoJXF said:

I'm pretty sure not all veterans doing raids. I don't even oppose DE if they're closing the trials but I agree on some people who still wanna play the trials. Technically the raids are good but in the long run, those raids are not attractive on new players as well. The mechanics on finishing the raids is "pretty complicated" for those new players doing it. Why not close the Conclave also? Are the new eidolons enough to be challenging compared on the trials? I don't think so for experienced players. Are the current trials will be embraced more by the playerbase in the future? That's not gonna happen for sure. But if a small percentage of playerbase is playing raids, that's something wrong and must be fixed.

 

I'm pretty ok with the trials being "temporarily closed" even thou my stats are kinda nothing compared on some vets. If DE will replace raids with a 10x size of a teralyst boss, I'm cool with that. And/Or just leave the trials be accessible for 5-6 months and give us more endgame stuffs in PoE and the upcoming venus open world.Or just keep the trials until new mechanics/ new trials/ new big endgame stuff will be added on the game.

It may be true that not all veterans do raids, but many do, and its considered to be "end-game content." It's not supposed to be easy for newer players, that's why the enemies are all level 80+ and hit like trucks. And like many other things in this game, there is hidden content that you can only discover by playing the game and that's what raids are. By removing raids, they are basically flipping the bird to all veteran players. Not all content in this game is supposed to be easily beat by everyone. It's called progression, as you play the game more, you become more powerful.

There is also TWB that will hopefully be happening later this year, and it's sad to see that DE is going to take raids out of the game before this charity takes place.

Also, don't forget to note that before PoE was released, the teralysts were said to be end-game bosses that cannot be easily killed by newer players, but we all know this is false. Killing/capturing teralysts has become something you essentially have to do. My personal guess is that the new bosses will be pretty easy to kill for 95% of players and will not suffice as an end-game boss.

4 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Calling this a temporary future is a complete lie. Focus Transference and Dark Sector Armistice have also been "temporary" over the course of multiple years!

Since it's expected that we will never see raids ever again and many veteran players only play for raids, DE will lose a significant amount of their veteran playerbase. It's sad to see them make an effort to promote and advertise raids so recently, and then kill them off.

This is all just my personal opinion.

Also DE, try reading up on this. It might help you figure out where to go with your current content.

 

[--RV--Goddess]

13 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Prepare them for what end game content - the end game content that you are removing? The forums are littered with veterans requesting MORE endgame content and instead you remove what little there is.  I don't even know how to respond to that.

It has been mentioned before, but bears mentioning again - people are getting burnt out on PoE and constantly forcing it down players throats is not the solution to keeping long term players.  First it was the grind to get the new Standing, the new resources, the quills, etc. Then Plague Star again and again, Then Ghouls Again and Again. Then vaulted Relics AGAIN AND AGAIN. Now you want us to do this daily?  No thanks.

I'm really not sure what game you are playing, but this isn't even close to true.  taking down a teralyst solo is trivial, and requires no teamwork or communication.  Obviously we have no idea of the mechanics of the "new and improved" teralyst but I'd be surprised if in short order its not another trivial task ESPECIALLY if your goal is to open it to new players.  And if you think nerfing chroma (now we find the real reason) is going to change that be prepared for disappointment.

And it should go without saying that getting some of the best gear in the game SHOULD be hard.  Should be challenging. 

The disconnect here between players and Devs is mind boggling.  Right from @[DE]Steve 's comment about the raids only being done by hardcore speed runners to the basic misunderstanding of WHY so many people have a hard time getting into the raids.  Far more people WANT to do the raids that can't -

• but they can't because there is no matchmaking lobby for them.
• Because the key is required, and if the host with the key gets disconnected the whole raid fails (why not require NO key or EVERYONE to have a key so it can host migrate like every other content). 
• Because the initial game stopping bugs (that btw regardless of what people yap about have been fixed.  There are no more game breaking bugs in the raids than there are in any other WF content.  I do them everyday and there are no show stopping problems.

Then there are those who don't want to do the raids 

• because by in large the rewards are not rewarding - IE all the completely useless arcanes. Well that should have been an easy fix.
• Or they don't like missions requiring teamwork and coordination - This will not get fixed by moving it some other content that purportedly requires teamwork and coordination.  Tell me - on the forums do you see more people complaining about the eidolon fights or the raids?  Because from what I read - its PoE & the Eidolons and the constant force feeding of this content.

If the raids are CURRENTLY hugely expensive to maintain - say so. If its for any other reason BUT that - DE is severely misguided as to how players view the raids and this decision is just evidence of that.

And to use the Dark Sectors as an example of "Temporary"... thats just laughable. 

 

Are we really supposed to believe this? Or believe it when Steve said "there will be no more new raids".

I'm not trying to speak for the community as a whole - but I do speak for a large number of people I know, that I play with,  that have played the game for years, play every day, and do the raids every day, have done your PoE every day since its release, maxed your focus school BEFORE the 2.5 nerf to farming requirements.  The conversation during todays raids kept coming back to "I'm not sure what I'm going to continue to do in WF" and thats sad.  

Lastly and most obviously - if the intent is to bring back the raids in some form, leave them as is until that day.

TL;DR;

I think its a poor decision based on erroneous assumptions of player behavior and player desires. And removing "end game" content when that is what the game lacks is particularly laughable and not a way to keep long time players (neither existing nor mold new ones).

 

AND THE ACADEMY AWARD GOOEESS TOOOO, You sir said it very well.