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The Temporary Future of Warframe Trials


[DE]Megan

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I'm sad to see the raids go, but I understand DE's reasoning for removing them. That being said, I'm rather heartbroken at the potential loss of the raiding communities in Warframe. Those communities were some of my absolute favorites, and I fear they won't be the same after these changes. Ah well. It's been a fun ride.

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5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Karolus XII said:

No one player could solo a Dark Sector battle.

Have you see the devstream? It will be a boring Diablo 3 great rift battle against the clock that any Rhino can handle, where is the hard part of it? Ah yes coordinating the squads to play 3 Rhinos and an EV Triny.

EDIT: DE said that Dark Sectors are not the replacement of trials.

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24 minutes ago, DoctorPelusa said:

But anyways, I'd love to see stats on how many people actually play conclave, hijack, or defection missions daily, considering they're extremely more exposed in the star chart and the orbiter than trials are, why don't we get rid of them too?  
Bringing out the fact that few people play raids is just a fallacy to justify themselves, when they haven't actually made any effort to promote them and introduce them to new players reaching endgame, nor adding hints to make their learning easier (just like Onko does with eidolon fights), many people don't even know of their existence...

"But what about the Conclave?" is a poor argument that has been brought up and promptly shot down like once per page on this thread.

Hijack and Defection mainly exists as Star Chart nodes that are not even meant to be something that people will play regulary, and thus it's kinda silly to compare them to the Trials. I do agree that Defection is a godawful mission type and should be removed, though.

The reason they are not promoting Trials is probably because, to my understanding, they were quite poorly received to begin with. I don't know if this is true but I've also heard that Trials were mostly a personal project of one person who hasn't been working for DE for a long time. So basically they've been trying to clean up someone else's mess for years.

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1 minute ago, Seinra said:

Have you see the devstream? It will be a boring Diablo 3 great rift battle against the clock that any Rhino can handle, where is the hard part of it? Ah yes coordinating the squads to play 3 Rhinos and an EV Triny

Ah yes. I remember when it was showed in the devstream. The 12 hour slugfest that required 750 victories against another clan made up of players. I'm talking about the Dark Sector battles that were removed 3 years ago. Not the one jus showcased in the devstream.

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6 minutes ago, Seinra said:

Have you see the devstream? It will be a boring Diablo 3 great rift battle against the clock that any Rhino can handle, where is the hard part of it? Ah yes coordinating the squads to play 3 Rhinos and an EV Triny.

EDIT: DE said that Dark Sectors are not the replacement of trials.

the same could be said for trials. Literally. 

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Just now, (Xbox One)Karolus XII said:

Ah yes. I remember when it was showed in the devstream. The 12 hour slugfest that required 750 victories against another clan made up of players. I'm talking about the Dark Sector battles that were removed 3 years ago. Not the one jus showcased in the devstream.

I don't know how those dark sectors were played and I don't care because I have 2 years playing not 4, I'm speaking about what we'll have, a copy of D3 GRs and the end of the Trials. I would love to have a devstream dedicated to endgame content.

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)Noiverns said:

The fabled Veterans right? The High Council of Veterans. Sure 

Indeed, as a veteran founder myself I want none of the stuff that poster mentioned. In fact I have a long history in MMO's that have been destroyed by chasing junk "Stockholm Syndrome content like that.

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1 hour ago, Airwolfen said:

an entire team of I believe 2 people working part time on it mostly just tweaking damage numbers and animation speeds. That really is not much dedication.

Dedication costs staffing. Staffing costs money.  Warframe is free.  So...they gotta improve the game, cut out staff dedicated to unproductive implementations, such as Trials, and reallocate them to things that CAN help the FREE game continue to grow.  

With a F2P business model, it comes down to a MUCH smaller ROI, and the only way to increase revenue enough to bring in more staff is to make changes that are better for the playerbase as a WHOLE, not just for a small slice of it, no matter how much those few may love it.

ALSO, from an artistic sense, Trials just no longer encapsulate what Warframe is about.  As the game evolves, some facets of it will inevitably become outdated or vestigial, and therefore need to be let go.  The playerbase and needs of it continue to grow while staffing numbers remain relatively the same.

This is a good and responsible decision on DE's part and I, for one, support it.

I played Trials several times and just never understood the drawl.  It's play-by-numbers, it cuts the heart out of the gameplay, because each raid only consists of doing the EXACT same motions, not even same mission type but MOTIONS, and most of the time forced to play the same FRAMES with the same WEAPONS and LOADOU-  It's just redundant.

I like the idea they have for future content, and we need to remember...DE knows what they're doing. This is literally their PROFESSION.  They didn't outlast other games, survive 5 years, AND make it to Award Nominees all by accident, you know :P

Breathe....Have some faith in 'em.  

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Dedication costs staffing. Staffing costs money.  Warframe is free.  So...they gotta improve the game, cut out staff dedicated to unproductive implementations, such as Trials, and reallocate them to things that CAN help the FREE game continue to grow.  

With a F2P business model, it comes down to a MUCH smaller ROI, and the only way to increase revenue enough to bring in more staff is to make changes that are better for the playerbase as a WHOLE, not just for a small slice of it, no matter how much those few may love it.

ALSO, from an artistic sense, Trials just no longer encapsulate what Warframe is about.  As the game evolves, some facets of it will inevitably become outdated or vestigial, and therefore need to be let go.  The playerbase and needs of it continue to grow while staffing numbers remain relatively the same.

This is a good and responsible decision on DE's part and I, for one, support it.

I played Trials several times and just never understood the drawl.  It's play-by-numbers, it cuts the heart out of the gameplay, because each raid only consists of doing the EXACT same motions, not even same mission type but MOTIONS, and most of the time forced to play the same FRAMES with the same WEAPONS and LOADOU-  It's just redundant.

I like the idea they have for future content, and we need to remember...DE knows what they're doing. This is literally their PROFESSION.  They didn't outlast other games, survive 5 years, AND make it to Award Nominees all by accident, you know :P

Breathe....Have some faith in 'em.  

I'm all for. no need to convince me xD

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3 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

I'm all for. no need to convince me xD

Lol I'm glad to see fellow Tenno supporting Space Mom and Co.  ^_^  People make so many demands.  It's like walking into a restaurant and telling the chef how to cook, when you've only ever made grilled cheese, ya know?

We need to let them do what they do best (and obviously well, or we wouldn't still be playing!) and relax a bit.  There is SO much to enjoy in Warframe ^_^

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13 minutes ago, Seinra said:

Have you see the devstream? It will be a boring Diablo 3 great rift battle against the clock that any Rhino can handle, where is the hard part of it? Ah yes coordinating the squads to play 3 Rhinos and an EV Triny.

EDIT: DE said that Dark Sectors are not the replacement of trials.

Well there are some buts to that. here is what we learned about this new mode:

Its a tower time attack, so its mostly about endgame leaderboards (this of course will not be content that trial runners will like in general so thats why they said it was not a trial replacement)

Levels scale up fast

You need kills to speed up orb charge progression (CC till you drop is not an option)

Most importantly. modifiers were not enabled in this demonstration. 2 of those named are

  • Headshot kills only
  • -NO ENERGY-

The no energy alone would stop the 3 rhino, 1 trin dead in its tracks once that pops up in high levels.

This mode could be quite the endgame to endless runners / leaderboard attackers.

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So, to begin, I am someone who enjoys trials(minus JV haven't done it), conclave archwing,and the game as a whole and I will cover some already discussed points and others. I also wanted to apologise in advance for the length of this post.

Drain on Development

First, I have to say I am disappointed in the reasoning given for the removal of the Trials, mainly that there had to be a constant look back at trials as every new update came as something would always go wrong. The main gripe I have with this is that Steve and presumably others worked on fixing 3 thousand or so lines of code over a month or so (that we were told) to optimize the game. If time was used as such and raids were being worked on as focused in the span of the 4 years or so they have been around their core problems should have been fixed. Raids are an extreme example of vex armor, allow me to explain in the latter case DE saw a problem and left it in the game for almost a year (9 months) allowing players to invest forma into their chroma's instead of addressing the problem. Raids however have been both openly spoken about being not inline with DE's timeline/gameplay for years and also been reinforced with DE's approval in the forms of adding the RSB on the official Discord and teasing us with the mythical Corpus raid.

Low Player Usage/other low engagement do not cost the manpower

 This argument was brought to light in today's Devstream near the end and it is another point of contention. Because unlike Raids which in the past have taken months to years to receive fixes, conclave has fairly consistent notes, weapon update/balancing, connection issues, matchmaking issues etc. It is precisely because of all these things that it was given it's own dedicated team,and even a new game mode in the form of Lunaro despite it's infamously low Player count. To say bug fixing 2 raids for a total of 6 or so missions , is harder than balancing with constantly new weapons, frames, and now game modes and maps feels like borderline exaggeration. That said simply because they are removing a feature that you may love away does not mean the need to remove another part of the community's enjoyment, that's the equivalent of be allergic to a food and banning everyone else from eating that food because you can't have it. 

"Temporary"

Admittedly this has been deemed a temporary change but 2 things marred this word in particular: the mention/existence of Darksectors, and the moving of arcanes to Teralysts. The first because a "temporary" shutdown lead to roughly 2 years of silence for a WIP to be developed. Now admittedly the WIP does seem to seek to fix the lack of end game and somewhat fill the void(pun intended) left by raids. But already we saw the Developer reaction to bringing Rhino and using iron skin and stomp these are Warframe abilities and somehow, exactly how it's meant to not be played? If even the WIP after nothing for 2 years is unsatisfactory, what about trials which are already so filled with problems software wise that they decided to pull the plug. 

As for the moving of arcanes I can see the both sides, from DE's point of view just because we take the game mode away there is no reason to take the rewards ala relics.Hence the move, (and also to open up the arcane market to other players to learn their joy).  On the player side while the care is the gamemodes the moving of the reward spells little reason for DE to revisit the raids. 

Community Reactions and gripes:

"It's for the arcanes"

While such a segment of people may exist if this were true the Warframe Raid School bus and streamers like DarkSlayer313 would not exist. There would not be people offering others on this thread offering runs, there would not be the reactions and paragraph after paragraph of outcry. So as far as this one goes I say it can be put to rest.

Raids aren't challenging/They're Unaccessible

The logic here is that raids can be cheesed and are often farmed in small 4 man groups anyway and that Teralysts and future content is more challenging. The answer to that is, yes, you could in fact cheese mechanics, however you can also cheese other "endgame" i.e.: Sorties,"high level bounties", and yes even Teralysts. And many may point to Chroma's rebalance and say "not anymore!" But in the same way players found a way to ease focus farming and raids, players will find a way to ease fights be that Octavia, stacking Chroma's now, Volt's etc. To the point of accessibility it's a moot point, if MR1 players were able to go straight into Mot in the void with their MK-1 Bratons and Skana's, Mot is technically "accessible" it does not mean they'll have a fun time using up all of their revives the moment the mission starts in the same way having an unprepared low MR player in a Teralyst fight sans completion of TSD+TWW leaves that player unable to participate no matter what they bring because for 90% of the fight the maximum they can do is attempt to support if at all to avoid dying and being a burden on their team. 

 

I do not care about raids so #killraids

In the same way it is not fair to single out the conclave community for having support because raids are being removed. It is unfair to ignore a small but dedicated group simply because it "doesn't affect" you. If you hold no gripes with or without the raids there is no reason to say #killraids, DE has already spoken on the future of raids no need to kick a group while they are down.

Final Thoughts/ Devil's Advocate

Having addressed all of these points I feel for both sides: DE given their downcast attitude today during the stream , and the players whose game mode they enjoy is going away. While it not be my favorite proposed change I hope if it does go through we are not met with silence for years and a lack of improvement for the Devs to be unhappy about. Equally it is not as though DE has done nothing these past couple of years, TWW, TSD, sydicate quests,Tenno reinforcements, POE, kavats, new mods, rivens, orbiter expansion to name a few. I believe the team at the end of the day to care deeply about the players and their game and if it takes the sacrifice of the current bug filled trials for better more polished versions in the near future I'm willing to put some trust in that promise.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Lol I'm glad to see fellow Tenno supporting Space Mom and Co.  ^_^  People make so many demands.  It's like walking into a restaurant and telling the chef how to cook, when you've only ever made grilled cheese, ya know?

We need to let them do what they do best (and obviously well, or we wouldn't still be playing!) and relax a bit.  There is SO much to enjoy in Warframe ^_^

Yup. I learned to look at things more from a developer PoV as I follow developer posts in games I play. So with the info DE gave on how trials run combined with the posts on almost every patchnote main page you just cant deny that there is something wrong there. Fixing is necessary to a point DE decided to pull the plug and restart from scratch. And that may be harsh on those who love the mode and its challenges but we can only hope that the future will bring a more dynamic trial like mode that follows the fast paced gameplay warframe is known for combined with the coordination trial runners have fallen in love with... And above all, I guess that part is just scary for those now affected because that future is uncertain.

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This has got to be the worst news i've heard yet on Warframe - even worse than the Limbo rework, by miles.

I've racked up over 1000 runs on trials.  I didn't do it just for the credits and arcanes.  They are fun.  They are challenging.  They are unique.  You kill those off and you're going to push the players who give you the most money away.  Telling us they're going the way of Dark Sectors is not encouraging.  There are top-end MR players in this game who've never actually experienced a solar rail conflict because they were abandoned for so long.

This is a BAD move.  Really bad.

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vor 36 Minuten schrieb Airwolfen:

Fixing is necessary to a point DE decided to pull the plug and restart from scratch.

The problem here is that everything seams like they will not restart. It seams like they say bye bye. Why I fell this way? 

  1. they say temporary and compare it to the dark sector(gone for nearly 3 years now)
  2. The new dark sector they showed today is nothing compared to the old dark sector
  3. They shifting the rewards
  4. They say they want to make the arcanes available for lower level players

You may ask you know why I added the 4. point the answere is simple:

In the moment they say they want to make the endgame rewards mid/low- game they say they don't want endgame rewards. If they want no endgame rewards why should there be a endgame?

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I'm kind of mad to see that this game is degrading as time goes by. A while ago, Void key were an easy way to farm ducats as you could do the same key (Relics for new players) over and over again, in the condition that you had skills. That was the true endless of Warframe. But that was removed, for a far worse system (imo) that asked way more farm and that didn't encourage player to display their skill in the game, merely doing 5 waves/minutes and extract, over and over. And now, DE want to get the last remnant of endless which was the trials. We live in a sad world if game like Warframe, that need high investment of time, are made for casual people only.

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So they delete the PvP and Lunaro Mode also? I dont know anyone in my clan who plays these game modes. Raids were played very often in the clan.
The Raids are a really unique game mode like Scott already said, but why is this a argument to shut them down?
DE had taken away the endless Void missions and lost a lot of the old playerbase. Also through many nerfs and irregular and few meaningful updates they pushing veterans away. The prices for primes have collapsed (maybe only on ps4?) cause of the relics. Now also the unvaulted relics are on the Plains..
The game gets more and more casual. Its easy to get Prime parts and the 'high level' stuff at the daily is a joke. Now also the arcanas are so easy to get?

DE continues to delete popular veteran gamemodes. And they re lost many old players until now and i dont know if the new player base is so loyal like the veterans.

 

But I really hope DE know what they do. Please do this right. I like Warframe and play these game so much longer then any other game til now. Also like the most of the innovations of the game like Eidolon or the new focus.

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I don’t do raids and trials because I’m a solo player, but I agree with a lot of the other people here that they should be kept around until you guys can either improve it or have come up with a replacement for it. I know some friends who do enjoy doing these activities, and they would appreciate it if you kept them around.

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vor 40 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

If you are a burger king....and noone orders the fish sandwich at your location, save for maybe like 10 customers.....and you're short-staffed...you do NOT put current kitchen staff on the task of making 100 perfect fish sandwiches.  It wouldnt make sense.

This is what they're getting at.  I agree with DE.

You get this wrong. Removing raids is not like removing the fish sandwich its something else. It is removing the table of the regulars! This mode was somthing primarly focused for the veteran players. Of corse there are more low level players than vetaran players and not even every veteran player likes trail but a big part (of the veterans) plays it. Warfarme needs those veterans because they teach new players what to do, they help them if they need help, they rule the big clans. And of corse a veteran player is something DE can count on.

So if you want to get rid of the raids you get rid of many veteran players. And when there are less veteran players there are less people to help new players to learn warfarme. And you need people to help new player to learn warframe because the game doesn't show new player what to do. So there will be more new player getting confused with warframe and get no help. This means they will leave the game too.

I'm afraid that DE thinks like you. Hope they will start to see the whole before it's too late.

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21 minutes ago, HeroOfTheWarframe said:

there are less people to help new players to learn warfarme. And you need people to help new player to learn warframe because the game doesn't show new player what to do. So there will be more new player getting confused with warframe and get no help. This means they will leave the game too.

This line right here is so untrue. Extremely untrue. I'm a veteran sure, but the friends I've recruited have only been playing for a year, 2 years for some. They're by no means your Ever So Holy veteran status. But they've taught new people. They're teaching new people. Like, there's such thing as passing down knowledge? Games and game communities don't rely solely on veteran players. I can't believe that's a thing that needs to be said at all in any context. There's youtube tutorials. There's reddit and forum explanations on mechanics and builds and everything a new player would need to get a footing. Your vet rhet is so overused and quite frankly super easy to shut down. Wild.

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Another bad idea which appears is in the favor of the "Newer" members. This is suppose to be a Co Op game. I've been able to take new, vets, young and old into LORs and play those just fine. If you're intent is to keep everyone in Ceetus and grind there all day, then just keep making Eidolon content. Problem I see a lot of people complain about is nothing for veterans no more. Every "Nerf", Fix, or Update is to make newer players happy. Do a stream and talk to them about finding groups and friends to play with and get better. It'll happen, doesnt take a year to master this game. It seems like the only end game in Warframe is the market (which seems to be getting worse).....and I'm sure that will be gone sometime also. Still think you all do an amazing job. Thanks

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Talking about raids.

This will be quite cheesy.

I honestly never tried trials so I can't judge or praise DE decision yet I always felt a wall between me and raids because I couldn't do them myself or with randoms (I found pretty good random teams for other events, it took days, but I did it) yet it would be impossible for raids because if you don't know aka never tried raids and didn't have practice what to do (reading instructions/watching them and doing them are different things) - you always "unrequired" for runs because you can fail despite if you are instructed. Plus I didn't have good enough english back in times when I started so it limited my possibilities even more.

I appreciate if communities like RSB exist but I bet they also are more welcome to people who want to make raids regularly, not to people like me who want to give all raids a try and not be forced to return to them if I didn't like them. It's not that important now yet it was actual for all time I was in game. Raids always were behind big wall and with time you lose interest to things which are artificially cut from main content by some sacred knowledge. I didn't mind some required builds or mastery rank or warframe or weapon, it's all understandable, but if you can be rejected because you never had a chance to try it - it becomes pointless. I just hope new trials will content simplier objectives and tasks so I and team (random or not) could use poweful gear we earned but wouldn't be forced to know ideally something we didn't even have chance to try, otherwise we're rejected.

And with salt around raids continuing to this day, I'd better be one for four people and would spend weeks on completing it than relying on people who care only about themselves and their precious status.

 

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