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The Temporary Future of Warframe Trials

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4 minutes ago, Orcot said:

Great example of closed mindedness, listen to opinions, facts and reason but isn't willing to accept the Truth or change their views even with all the evidence presented in front of them. Raids in their current state are objectively bad for the game, they break with almost every major update, mechanically detached from the rest of the game more so than POE (Which should be impossible considering how old LOR is.), having more in common with World of Warcraft than anything else in Warframe and required constant patching just to barely keep it playable.  

Time and energy spent yet they are still a steaming hot mess, such effort wasted could be used else where finishing content that actually add more to the game improving the experience for the approximate 20+ million (registered, not concurrent) players instead of capturing to the rough 15K "dedicated"  minority.  I personally would like to see Raids improve and be something great, but keeping them in means they would need to be supported, making changes everytime DE updates lighting system, sounds systems, physics, damage types, armor types, enemy scaling, new warframes launch, weapons launch just for a mode less than 5% even plays. It simply needs to go back to the drawing board.

I think you don't know the history about DE on Warframe. I want to remind you the dark sectors, specter of the rail. They are all examples of something  removed or changed for worst. There are a lot of things they are not fixing or that they are putting behind schedule like archwing mode in general, new player experience etc. So don't tell me that a good amount of work was put in fixing raids much so that they had to remove it. They trials added something new to the game, were a different gamplay experience and by removing the they are only doing damage to the Warframe experience.  

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1 hour ago, --Q--Captain said:

My issue with people posing an opinion about raids when they haven’t done any is that they don’t know anything. If you’ve never done raids, you don’t know anything about them.

Forced teaming content.

That's all I need to know, it was bad, toxic content in EQ, AO, CoX, Guild Wars[2] and WoW and I don't need to do DE's carbon copies to know that.

I don't just support the removal of the trials, I recommend them being picked apart for their assets and them be returned to the game proper, so what we get back is actual content and not more forced teaming nonsense.

There are two ways to drastically increase the likelihood of people behaving poorly, first is to force them to work against each other closely followed by forcing them to work together.

The common factor is forcing, I'll crack open a beer when the trials are switched off, and I'll bet DE's Devs will too.

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3 hours ago, Navarchus said:

Since some of you only value input from people who have done raids, I've done them.
https://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=Navarchus

I'm very glad to see trials get removed to get reworked - they're a waste of resources right now. There's an absurdly low amount of people doing trials - and of those who have trials most don't do it again. It's not the end-game they had in mind, it's not executed the way they wanted it to be and they have to work on it every single patch.
The game has since evolved a lot and they're able to make something much more enjoyable if they take them away and rework them.
7lnYEm0.png 

The graph is not the reason why raids are removed: the mission types like capture, defense , mobile defense etc.. are more played becuse there are a lot of mission like that one in the solar system and some are played becouse of farming. While i agree that raids are played by few people it depends on the problems that they have and the fact taht you can do them once a day. The graph means more than anything that Warframe is a farming simulator so that more than a reason for raids being removed it means that to make progress regaring especially new player the curve of farming must be inverted: experienced player must farm more than new once. This menas for new players more slot for warframe and weapons, less resources required for a lot of things, more onest market prices, more tutorials for important things like progressing throught the game (mastery rank, dojo research materials...). 

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15 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Forced teaming content.

That's all I need to know, it was bad, toxic content in EQ, AO, CoX, Guild Wars[2] and WoW and I don't need to do DE's carbon copies to know that.

I don't just support the removal of the trials, I recommend them being picked apart for their assets and them be returned to the game proper, so what we get back is actual content and not more forced teaming nonsense.

There are two ways to drastically increase the likelihood of people behaving poorly, first is to force them to work against each other closely followed by forcing them to work together.

The common factor is forcing, I'll crack open a beer when the trials are switched off, and I'll bet DE's Devs will too.

What is the point of playing online games if you're not interested in working with other players?

 

And while I respect your opinion, plenty of people enjoy teamwork(after all, that's why we play co-op games), and Warframe is severely lacking in this department. Nothing in Warframe requires teamwork, aside from Trials. That's why there are people that absolutely enjoy them. The toxicity is also only partly true, as there are always communities that allow you ti find people that WANT to work as a team and don't feel forced to do so.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

You don't tell the plumber how to fix the pipes.....Maybe we shouldn't tell DE, professional game developers, how to fix bugs and deal with coding issues? Just a thought.

Yes, Yes we can. Developer build exist. Simple quote don't work in this situation. They do all their work at the dev build. Nothing is done just on the global build

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59 minutes ago, SilverBones said:

GAME ON.

Poor choice of words considering this thread is literally about removing peoples games.

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I never played Raids and my mastery and overall gear level is not able to try them yet but it seems I will wait a long time before the raids could come back. Others opinions is different and everyone see this topic different, many not played some people liked it my opinion is if a mechanic and a gameplay element is already in the game then it should not be removed at all but instead need to make a plan how to make it better then give feedbacks and do sheldues what needs to be done then done it when they have free time. As much we know DE is famous to not finish things and they often begins one thing then another and years later they finish what they beginned. This needs to go and they should focus on finishing one part of the game at the time otherwise they will forgot what they did and they won't be so motivated to do it. I know they can make reminds what they did and what is need to be done but those lists itself not so exciting and they easily shelve things because they found a different idea what they want to add to the game. 

Other devs make a list what they want to finish and they finish the core game and then expand it with new contents without touching too much into the deep to fix core mechanics. In a reasonable time they do but DE does different and they instead shelving contents. I wasn't here when the rails was a thing but there is a lot of things still in nowadays which awaits to be finished. 

My opinion so let them in the game and peoples still can play and later make a solution (not bandaid) to fix it and make it more popular. I am wish the same for Lunaro, AW, Conclave because these game modes also not popular.

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1 hour ago, Redthirst said:

What is the point of playing online games if you're not interested in working with other players?

Which part of the "forced" comment was confusing to you?

I get that there are a subset of the community that is so calloused to it that they think nothing of being forced to order others around and/or be ordered around to advance in a game that didn't require that for the entire breadth of its experience prior to that point. I get that you literally can't see the problem, bully for you. Doesn't mean the stuff you are enjoying isn't bad content for the vast majority of the rest of the player base. 

As it happens it's also bad content for the Devs, and that really trumps everything else. So, I'm sorry you're losing a thing, I'm not sorry the Trials are going away, and where DE are looking for feedback I will speak against any more forced teaming content being created.

Large-scale optional teaming content: I'll welcome that with open arms. 

Forced: Riot

 

Edited by SilentMobius
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31 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Which part of the "forced" comment was confusing to you.

I get that there are a subset of the community that is so calloused to it that they think nothing of being forced to order others around and/or be ordered around to advance in a game that didn't require that for the entire breadth of its experience prior to that point. I get that you literally can't see the problem, bully for you. Doesn't mean the stuff you are enjoying isn't bad content for the vast majority of the rest of the player base. 

As it happens it's also bad content for the Devs, and that really trumps everything else. So, I'm sorry you're losing a thing, I'm not sorry the Trials are going away, and where DE are looking for feedback I will speak against any more forced teaming content being created.

Large-scale optional teaming content: I'll welcome that with open arms. 

Forced: Riot

 

What would qualify as an optional teaming content? Like the rest of the content in Warframe, where "teamwork" is just you having other people running around, but everyone is pretty much doing their own thing as the game doesn't encourage or require you to play together?

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On 11/2/2018 at 4:03 AM, ShaiPaneer said:

Feel free to remove all the trials, I have sold all my arcanes for the price I got them for =d

Cool but is not about platinum, I not agree with people who think we all are against this because the cost of arcanes, I personally dont care, I still have a lot of energize but Im not rushing to play and sell them just because of this lol. (Im not fighting you)

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1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

Forced teaming content.

That's all I need to know, it was bad, toxic content in EQ, AO, CoX, Guild Wars[2] and WoW and I don't need to do DE's carbon copies to know that.

I don't just support the removal of the trials, I recommend them being picked apart for their assets and them be returned to the game proper, so what we get back is actual content and not more forced teaming nonsense.

There are two ways to drastically increase the likelihood of people behaving poorly, first is to force them to work against each other closely followed by forcing them to work together.

The common factor is forcing, I'll crack open a beer when the trials are switched off, and I'll bet DE's Devs will too.

M8 you even know how stupid this sound for an argument against raids being the social interaction and teamwork? 

 

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7 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

What would qualify as an optional teaming content? Like the rest of the content in Warframe, where "teamwork" is just you having other people running around, but everyone is pretty much doing their own thing as the game doesn't encourage or require you to play together?

Anything that scales down to one player.

You can add all sorts of bonuses when you successfully coordinate with other players, but all the core content and rewards should be available from one player upwards.

There should be no content or reward that is simply a test of how many "internet friends" you can guilt trip into doing content they'd rather be doing solo.

You want to be "Awesome team Alpha" and zoom the content that would take someone hours to solo, thats's fine, you want to get more doodads as a thankyou for organising warm bodies? Thats... fine I guess.

But "X bodies on buttons and you can't start with less than 4 and we're not scaling the enemies like the while rest of the game so there"

No, kill it with fire.

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4 minutes ago, dimo145 said:

M8 you even know how stupid this sound for an argument against raids being the social interaction and teamwork? 

I do, that is, not at all

..."M8"

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The current raid system is waste of time, DE is far better of removing them and created a true end game raid system.

 

 

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Il y a 2 heures, SilverBones a dit :

 

New all like. But removing raids another slap in the face to the players from DE.
Let them take Arcanes but leave the raids!

Poorly know English, excuse

Edited by B3tler
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I strongly oppose the removal of Trials.

With that out of the way, I want to dig into why I oppose the removal of Trials even though I've only ever completed one - a joke 5-man JV run with friends.

DE and Warframe have built their success on making the entire game as hardware-accessible as possible, for the widest possible audience. The Plains are still prohibitively demanding for a large number of players, both for reasons of computer hardware and high-quality internet access.

It's possible to make a strong argument that Trials, in their current form, are exclusionary to the degree that learning them and finding good groups to complete them takes work. Not all players have easy access to a reliable network of willing and capable players, or know how to get the knowledge they need for completing trials. However, this soft exclusivity is very much within the power of the player community to minimize. The RSB is an excellent example of this: a community effort that breaks down the barriers to entry for players seeking to complete Trials.

Now, what is our community supposed to do about players who are effectively locked out of Plains content because their computer hardware and/or internet service isn't good enough?

While our community groups can do great work to make the current Trials accessible for more people, we will be powerless to do anything about the more stringent hardware requirements of Plains content.

I do not want to trade a form of exclusivity we CAN control for one that we CAN'T control.

If arcanes come to be locked behind walls that can't be removed by any amount of in-game player skill, knowledge or community effort... we're going to have a bad time. It'll be bad PR for the game and it'll have negative consequences for the game economy.

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5 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

I think that was mentioned on the stream. Their coders have to look at the Trials when a bug appears there. Taking the time where they could be working at something else.

 

But isn't the point of it to make new versions? That has to take time from them to begin with, and at some point they have to do it. And if you mean bugs in the current trials, at this point many have probably become known and addressed, but I don't see how that would affect new ones if, when those were to be implemented, the old ones would be removed. If it's bugs in new ones however, then it still would be like any other update. They work on them and fix any bug they come across as per usual, and we find others than they then fix, also as per usual. So I don't see the problem, unless I'm missing something.

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4 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Anything that scales down to one player.

You can add all sorts of bonuses when you successfully coordinate with other players, but all the core content and rewards should be available from one player upwards.

There should be no content or reward that is simply a test of how many "internet friends" you can guilt trip into doing content they'd rather be doing solo.

You want to be "Awesome team Alpha" and zoom the content that would take someone hours to solo, thats's fine, you want to get more doodads as a thankyou for organising warm bodies? Thats... fine I guess.

But "X bodies on buttons and you can't start with less than 4 and we're not scaling the enemies like the while rest of the game so there"

No, kill it with fire.

Here's the issue - people like raids for teamwork and social interaction they provide. I don't play with other players because I want better rewards or an easier time, I play with other people simply because I like to. I enjoy social interactions and I want coordinate with other players. I don't care about Arcanes, I play Trials only for the teamwork that they require.

I'm really don't understand why you play an online co-op game, but expect everything to be easily solo-able.

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1 minute ago, ElGuirrix said:

But isn't the point of it to make new versions? That has to take time from them to begin with, and at some point they have to do it. And if you mean bugs in the current trials, at this point many have probably become known and addressed, but I don't see how that would affect new ones if, when those were to be implemented, the old ones would be removed. If it's bugs in new ones however, then it still would be like any other update. They work on them and fix any bug they come across as per usual, and we find others than they then fix, also as per usual. So I don't see the problem, unless I'm missing something.

You didnt get it.

The thing is: how many times did they do an update and it broke the Trials?

They didnt touch anything from the Trials with the updates and it still SOMEHOW broke them. The coders had to go back and fix it, using the time they could have been making a "New Trial" fixing something that even if it wasnt intented to break.

With them removed, they can make new ones without fearing of having to stop their work to fix a previous one.

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20 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

Here's the issue - people like raids for teamwork and social interaction they provide. I don't play with other players because I want better rewards or an easier time, I play with other people simply because I like to. I enjoy social interactions and I want coordinate with other players. I don't care about Arcanes, I play Trials only for the teamwork that they require.

Obviously you like it, but what is stopping you doing that when not forced to?

Why wouldn't you gather your equally-up-for-it-comrades-in-arms and go to the same content I'm doing while completing all of the side-objectives that can only be done with cooperation (In theoretical "mass content that scales").

Take the existing Trials as an example, what would stop you doing the same thing you always did even if it scaled down to solo? Where the pushbuttons and bomb carrying had numbers and timers that scaled for a single player, what would stop you breezing it in a tiny portion of the time, potentially with more rewards as a result?

Or are you suggesting that no-one would team up if they could be done solo?

20 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

I'm really don't understand why you play an online co-op game, but expect everything to be easily solo-able.

Because co-op is, and has always been, optional (Until these broken monstrosities were implemented). Also the "co-op" part of the game is just one tiny part of an overall game that is very good at it's core.

Co-op is fine, forced is not.

Edited by SilentMobius
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2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

You didnt get it.

The thing is: how many times did they do an update and it broke the Trials?

They didnt touch anything from the Trials with the updates and it still SOMEHOW broke them. The coders had to go back and fix it, using the time they could have been making a "New Trial" fixing something that even if it wasnt intented to break.

With them removed, they can make new ones without fearing of having to stop their work to fix a previous one.

I see. That way it makes sense to remove them.

But still sounds weird that they don't do anything and it just breaks. I mean, I've no idea how coding works, but it sounds like something's a mess if touching a completely different part of the game randomly breaks a trial.

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1 hour ago, San_Ceppato said:

I think you don't know the history about DE on Warframe. I want to remind you the dark sectors, specter of the rail. They are all examples of something  removed or changed for worst. There are a lot of things they are not fixing or that they are putting behind schedule like archwing mode in general, new player experience etc. So don't tell me that a good amount of work was put in fixing raids much so that they had to remove it. They trials added something new to the game, were a different gamplay experience and by removing the they are only doing damage to the Warframe experience.  

I've been here long before Dark Sectors, they were crap. DS 1.0 was boring and the credits ran dry in minutes, DS 2.0 was a PVP mess filled with Ash and tonkors killing everything and filled with Clans exploiting the system by claiming majority share of credits, Sector locking and just turning DS into a timer simulator.  It was taken out for the same reason Trials are being removed now, leaving it present would require continued support (Out of sight and out of mind of the general populous).

 

Trials added nothing to WF nor did it draw from WF's core gameplay concepts, all it did do was highlight WF broken Meta, CP beats all auras, CC everything till is trivial, spam energy plats and invulnerability and if it doesn't kill everything in front of you with a sneeze it's crap.

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9 minutes ago, ElGuirrix said:

But still sounds weird that they don't do anything and it just breaks. I mean, I've no idea how coding works, but it sounds like something's a mess if touching a completely different part of the game randomly breaks a trial.

Software dev for ~20 years here, deeply coupled code like games are often like this. Alterations to assets (map objects, NPCs), functions (item sync, pickup, processing of tick events, spawn logic) let alone core engine code can all break things that were hacky to begin with (and the trials definitely were hacky to begin with because DE were testing the limits of what they could do) 

Sure we'd all like to be working on loosely coupled, highly modular code, but in the real world, and especially entertainment, it's often "ship it if it doesn't crash" because the other options are going out of business.

Edited by SilentMobius
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12 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Obviously you like it, but what is stopping you doing that when not forced to?

Why wouldn't you gather your equally-up-for-it-comrades-in-arms and go to the same content I'm doing while completing all of the side-objectives that can only be done with cooperation.

Take the existing Trials as an example, what would stop you doing the same thing you always did even if it scaled down to solo? Where the pushbuttons and bomb carrying had numbers and timers that scaled for a single player, what would stop you breezing it in a tiny portion of the time, potentially with more rewards as a result?

Or are you suggesting that no-one would team up if they could be done solo?

Because co-op is, and has always been, optional (Until these broken monstrosities were implemented). Also the "co-op" part of the game is just one tiny part of an overall game that is very good at it's core.

Co-op is fine, forced is not.

Largely depends on the quality of the content, but if there are optional objective that require significant teamwork for extra rewards, it can indeed work. Doesn't cancel out the fact that DE would probably never implement something like that, and even if they do it will take years to see any such content, but the idea itself isn't bad, I give you that.

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