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The Temporary Future of Warframe Trials


[DE]Megan

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il y a 27 minutes, jd2fs a dit :

There is always private recruit option that is already there for you to make that selection and choice. But there needs to be an option for people to play with pugs. It's a risk that it may not be best game play experience but at least there is option. 

An option like this would only make people think raids are way harder than they really are since every time they will "queue" they will be matched with at least one person that will make it impossible to complete. Even more with the fact that most experienced player already have raid group

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4 minutes ago, --Q--Simon said:

An option like this would only make people think raids are way harder than they really are since every time they will "queue" they will be matched with at least one person that will make it impossible to complete. Even more with the fact that most experienced player already have raid group

People will eventually figure and adapt. This is not nuclear physics. 

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à l’instant, jd2fs a dit :

People will eventually figure and adapt. This is not nuclear physics. 

Even if people figure it out, Let's say everyone goes with Energy Free frame like inaros or Warframe that don't have a lot/ don't have the mods to make them able to carry the bomb, it is impossible to complete it. Would they need to include a system that actively look for a certain frame? No they can't because it is exactly what you want to eliminate. 

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4 minutes ago, --Q--Simon said:

Even if people figure it out, Let's say everyone goes with Energy Free frame like inaros or Warframe that don't have a lot/ don't have the mods to make them able to carry the bomb, it is impossible to complete it. Would they need to include a system that actively look for a certain frame? No they can't because it is exactly what you want to eliminate. 

If it's an impossible mission, then it's a poorly designed game. When it's difficult, people will learn like with any difficult task that needs solving. If pugs are running sub optimal equipment, doesn't that make the game harder? Isn't that what vets like to cry about not facing enough difficult missions?

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il y a 2 minutes, jd2fs a dit :

If it's an impossible mission, then it's a poorly designed game. When it's difficult, people will learn like with any difficult task that needs solving. If pugs are running sub optimal equipment, doesn't that make the game harder? Isn't that what vets like to cry about not facing enough difficult missions?

Having challenge and having a leech are two completely different thing, but I'll stop arguing with you since se clearly both have our opinion and neither of us will change theirs from some discussion on a forum.

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1 minute ago, --Q--Simon said:

Having challenge and having a leech are two completely different thing, but I'll stop arguing with you since se clearly both have our opinion and neither of us will change theirs from some discussion on a forum.

Leech is going to happen in any setting even private recruit missions. Pugs will have higher risk but people understand that. They understand higher failure rate but that option should still exist for people to use.

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9 hours ago, jd2fs said:

This not really the solution. The group leader still hold the power to permit or reject another.

 

I'm saying you can have that power for private recruit but there need to be pug option. 

 

If RSB was actually the solution to the problem, then more people would have played it to give DE reason to spend resource on it.

WRONG.
They've made rules SPECIFICALLY to prevent raid group leaders from picking and choosing in RSB. The raid bus for newcomers is lead by a raid veteran and usually 1 or 2 other raid vets so waypoints can be placed to specifically teach everyone else in the group.

I've seen a master rank 4  excaliber with no aura be let in without any fuss. 
The teaching bus is first come first serve so if you're there when a vet readies a bus then you're in. All you're expected to do is listen and learn while the vets do the work and explain how the raid is completed,
I know because they helped me complete all of my first raids and i've done at least 25 other raids with all of the different vets with the teaching bus and NEVER has a vet rejected a player. As I've told you,they've made rules to prevent player rejection in the teaching bus.

Groups like RSB are the solution,or at least part of it. 
A lot of players don't even know the raids exist in the game because DE has made no effort to show they're in the game.   We need raid icons like those of alerts and sorties on the star chart across the top.  If more people knew they existed then more people would play them.   Having desirable rewards behind raid completion ontop of all of this would also push more players into raiding.



 

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6 minutes ago, wizardeiges said:

WRONG.
They've made rules SPECIFICALLY to prevent raid group leaders from picking and choosing in RSB. The raid bus for newcomers is lead by a raid veteran and usually 1 or 2 other raid vets so waypoints can be placed to specifically teach everyone else in the group.

I've seen a master rank 4  excaliber with no aura be let in without any fuss. 
The teaching bus is first come first serve so if you're there when a vet readies a bus then you're in. All you're expected to do is listen and learn while the vets do the work and explain how the raid is completed,
I know because they helped me complete all of my first raids and i've done at least 25 other raids with all of the different vets with the teaching bus and NEVER has a vet rejected a player. As I've told you,they've made rules to prevent player rejection in the teaching bus.

 

But bus is meant as teaching tool. It doesn't have capacity to function like auto matchmake.

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1 minute ago, jd2fs said:

But bus is meant as teaching tool. It doesn't have capacity to function like auto matchmake.

There is a teaching bus and then there is a growing dedicated group of raiders who have done the learning bus enough to do it without instructions.

Any player is welcome to create their own raid group and raid group chat in RSB.  If you want to learn then go with the teaching bus. If you know the raid and want experienced players then make a raid chat or look at the raid group chat for one being made. Either way youll be able to get into a raid in a matter of minutes depending on what time of day it is.

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3 minutes ago, wizardeiges said:

There is a teaching bus and then there is a growing dedicated group of raiders who have done the learning bus enough to do it without instructions.

Any player is welcome to create their own raid group and raid group chat in RSB.  If you want to learn then go with the teaching bus. If you know the raid and want experienced players then make a raid chat or look at the raid group chat for one being made. Either way youll be able to get into a raid in a matter of minutes depending on what time of day it is.

The bus is all well and good but it doesn't replace a straightforward auto-match make option. I don't understand the objection. Experienced raiders don't need to use them. It's just an option for people to use who don't want to go through hoops to get into a raid. People going in knowing the risk of a pug auto match make. 

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1 minute ago, jd2fs said:

The bus is all well and good but it doesn't replace a straightforward auto-match make option. I don't understand the objection. Experienced raiders don't need to use them. It's just an option for people to use who don't want to go through hoops to get into a raid. People going in knowing the risk of a pug auto match make. 

A waste of time when it needs more important things like putting out information to players in the star chart that raids actually exist in the game.

Auto matchmaking is hardly a solution when players don't even know the raids exist to begin with.  

 

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2 minutes ago, wizardeiges said:

A waste of time when it needs more important things like putting out information to players in the star chart that raids actually exist in the game.

Auto matchmaking is hardly a solution when players don't even know the raids exist to begin with.  

 

How about this - people know about the raids but don't want to go through the hoops of joining a raid. 

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Not that any of this conversation matters as its probably falling on [de]af ears, but automatchmaking could have be made to work - at least somewhat.

Enter match - you are presented with the Raid team screen where you see everyone's load out.  There is already squad chat so you can type to people. Raid only starts when people ready up.  If someone doesn't ready up, the others are free to leave and find a different group, or chat about why they aren't getting ready.  Since you already see everyones load out its not a surprise what is being brought already and what is still needed.

Not full on auto match like sorties -  although tbh I would have been fine with that too. 

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1 minute ago, jd2fs said:

How about this - people know about the raids but don't want to go through the hoops of joining a raid. 

Still at step 1,DE has put no effort into showing raids exist to players.
You need to get past step 1 before we can even get to step 2 or even if step 2 is needed.

If more people knew about the raids then more people would be looking for players for them in recruit chat.

Before I joined RSB I tried time and time again to find players to raid with in recruit chat and never had a seen a player interested.  I did however get plenty of people whispering me asking me what law of retribution and jordas verdict were and I'd have to explain to them myself that raids exist in the game.

If DE wants people to be interested in raids then they need to put in effort to show to players that they exist,that should have been the very first thing they did.  Hard to be interested in something you don't know exists.

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4 minutes ago, wizardeiges said:

Still at step 1,DE has put no effort into showing raids exist to players.
You need to get past step 1 before we can even get to step 2 or even if step 2 is needed.

If more people knew about the raids then more people would be looking for players for them in recruit chat.

Before I joined RSB I tried time and time again to find players to raid with in recruit chat and never had a seen a player interested.  I did however get plenty of people whispering me asking me what law of retribution and jordas verdict were and I'd have to explain to them myself that raids exist in the game.

If DE wants people to be interested in raids then they need to put in effort to show to players that they exist,that should have been the very first thing they did.  Hard to be interested in something you don't know exists.

So make raid have its own "sortie" screen. People can just join through that. Wouldn't that be easier than going through market to purchase key and going through discord or using recruit chat?

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11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Not that any of this conversation matters as its probably falling on [de]af ears, but automatchmaking could have be made to work - at least somewhat.

Enter match - you are presented with the Raid team screen where you see everyone's load out.  There is already squad chat so you can type to people. Raid only starts when people ready up.  If someone doesn't ready up, the others are free to leave and find a different group, or chat about why they aren't getting ready.  Since you already see everyones load out its not a surprise what is being brought already and what is still needed.

Not full on auto match like sorties -  although tbh I would have been fine with that too. 

Like your idea alot. Have some analysis thing showing group composition. Is it tending toward CC, DPS? How experienced in terms of raids etc. 

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31 minutes ago, jd2fs said:

So make raid have its own "sortie" screen. People can just join through that. Wouldn't that be easier than going through market to purchase key and going through discord or using recruit chat?

That's what I've been saying this entire time,give raids their spot across the top of the star chart.

Have you even finished a raid? they are nothing like sorties. A sortie is easily soloable.  A raid is endgame and requires teamwork and communication unlike all other content in the game.
I can't imagine doing a raid without being able to work as a team or communicate on the spot when it's needed for things like pads in LoR or spore pushers to keep players inside of jordas.  The raids are also plagued with bugs and I doubt anyone wants to spend a hour typing out how to help prevent raid stopping bugs from ocuring and ways to potentially get around them if they should occur. 
Discord is free and can either be downloaded or used in your browser,there is no reason why players shouldn't use it. It makes raids a breeze because it's easy to communicate through voicechat.
RSB isn't a requirement,it's just a place where everyone interested in raiding goes to do raids because everyone there is interested in the exact same thing.  It's only smart to go to something when it has what you need. 

 I'd rather not roll the dice with random matchmaking for something that requires teamwork and communication. Last thing I need is the lack of teamwork and communication becoming a burden when raid bugs should be the only thing you have to worry about.
Because it would cause a ton of problems ontop of the already existing problems I see automatchmaking as a huge waste of time when other things should be given priority.
Like bug fixing,bug fixing,bug fixing,bug fixing,and explaining to players that raids exist.  

You need to keep in mind the amount of time they already put into raids and how small that time is. Any moment wasted on a auto matching is time taken away from fixing crippling bugs and putting raids in the starchart top.

If anything,make a raid only chat in game,I doubt it'd take much time to do that..but recruitment chat can already fulfil that want.

 

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3 minutes ago, wizardeiges said:

That's what I've been saying this entire time,give raids their spot across the top of the star chart.

Have you even finished a raid? they are nothing like sorties. A sortie is easily soloable.  A raid is endgame and requires teamwork and communication unlike all other content in the game.
I can't imagine doing a raid without being able to work as a team or communicate on the spot when it's needed for things like pads in LoR or spore pushers to keep players inside of jordas.  The raids are also plagued with bugs and I doubt anyone wants to spend a hour typing out how to help prevent raid stopping bugs from ocuring and ways to potentially get around them if they should occur. 
Discord is free and can either be downloaded or used in your browser,there is no reason why players shouldn't use it. It makes raids a breeze because it's easy to communicate through voicechat.
RSB isn't a requirement,it's just a place where everyone interested in raiding goes to do raids because everyone there is interested in the exact same thing.  It's only smart to go to something when it has what you need.   I'd rather not roll the dice with random matchmaking for something that requires teamwork and communication. Last thing I need is the lack of teamwork and communication becoming a burden when raid bugs should be the only thing you have to worry about.

So you want to restrict access due to some fears that don't prevent you from using recruit chat option to get your optimal play experience. But that restriction prevent raids to become popular. So DE refuses to fix those bugs because there is not enough people playing it to warrant spending resources to fix them. DE closes it off until further notice. Do you actually want those bugs fixed or not?

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On 2/21/2018 at 3:14 PM, jd2fs said:

The only issue I have with raids is that it allows the group leader to be the sole gatekeeper to the mission.

How? Any player can host or key in for “leader”. Did they finally fix the star waypoint? Either way - super confused here when you say that there is a sole gatekeeper. From MR2-25 as long as a person has a warframe they can play and raids can be done casually so we can actually explain what is happening. When hunting eidolon, any of the four people could quit if you’re just matchmaking. There is no communication, even if you find a squad in recruiting. It’s a giant waste of time to get to the third one and having people rage quit.

They can reject anyone without having to have a good reason.

Same with pug matchmaking except like, at least literally 100x worse. See above.

SWhy can sorties have auto match make and not raids? As long as the participant meet some requirements set by DE like through a quest of a entry training level raid, they should be allow to join.

Anyone can raid. Anyone. It’s a mode that thrives on communication. I do not believe you have done many raids or even understand what they are. The idea that people would be able to on matchmake JV makes my eyes bleed because it’s always been bad enough due to bugs.

Even with top-tier players I’ve had failures from game breaking bugs. How would you turn Stage 3 into anything simpler by adding 8 random people together? Another reason I’m triggered is because I raid primarily with Oceania, Asia, and Europe players while I’m N  America. How would you suggest circumventing that? 

This is huge reason why there is not enough people playing it.

No. It is not. The reason people don’t play is because they either have never heard of it (which is how I was introduced to raids in a pug Draco and why I blab about them in random pug sessions OR they tried it a few times with no knowledge upon entrance of how the puzzles work and were with the random matchmaking type of recruitment, leading to everyone aborting.

Hell, the one who keys in loses the most. 

compensation pls v:

 

Quote

People have to meet an artificial bar set by that gatekeeper rather than set by DE. If there were more people spending time on it, then it would have given DE reason to spend on the content.

No. They don’t. Again, please share stories or screenshots about this kind of behavior so we can squash the beef and be friends - it’s PvE after all ^^ So if they keep nerfing everything that we enjoy about the game, what gives you the idea that the more we play something the more attention they will pay toward it? Yet missions that no one voluntarily submits to Infested Salvage, Defection, and our beloved Conclave are doted on. 

 

@jd2fs I understand that you believe you are somehow contributing useful information. I am glad that you have opinions and that we have an open forum to share our opinions on. Again, it is very difficult for anyone to take you seriously or to agree with any of your points **not because we are stupid, not because we are stubborn, not because we do not understand the concept you are proposing** 

The things you are proposing would never make sense for Trials. Which other accounts do you raid on? Unless you primarily ran them in the early days - the username you are currently posting with has one raid ever. 

If you really have only played one time, or the last time you played was years ago - why do you believe you have the best solutions for problems with the raids? I am sincerely curious. 

Literally they don’t make sense /: (friendly tone) 

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7 hours ago, wizardeiges said:

That's what I've been saying this entire time,give raids their spot across the top of the star chart.

 

8 hours ago, jd2fs said:

Wouldn't that be easier than going through market to purchase key and going through discord or using recruit chat?

I have been telling this the entire time, RSB/Discords are not a solution, they are not IN GAME, group finder is (and it works in other games):

 

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14 hours ago, h0tsp4ce said:

what gives you the idea that the more we play something the more attention they will pay toward it?

DE mentioned as the biggest reason why they've shut down raids. If you guys actually want raid to come back, maybe the best idea is not have it be so exclusive that no one plays it.

 

I've already said this in other posts, that recruit system for the raids is a big turnoff. I'll not embrace raids until they will make a auto match make capability. This has no effect on how you vets even do raids so why protest against it. You can still use your private recruit. This provides an option for people who are turnoff by that whole system. It's not optimal game play so be it but at least more people will take a chance if it bypasses all those hoops to join a raid. I'll stand firm on my stance on my belief. If you guys don't want raid to come back, then go on holding back any changes that may help bring it back. You guys keep recycling beliefs that is holding back any meaningful changes that might help make it work.

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Here's my 2 cent on the topic:

I realise that Trials will go away, i only got to do them a few times but i enjoyed it, it was a nice change of pace. What i'd like to suggest is that you integrate the 8 man squad in Dark Sectors. Make it in such a way that leaderboards will at least divided into 4 man and 8 man runs, squads with 4 or less competing for the 4 man leader board, while squads with 5-8 players compete for the 8 man leaderboard. Also, keeping Trials in the end-game zone would be better than making it new player friendlier. You can't have enough end-game content for everyone and there's enough low level content for new players, after all, they need something to strive for, Trials could be one of them.

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On 2/20/2018 at 8:50 PM, LabMan95 said:

That's what made raids appealing. It's one of the few things in the game you have to put teamwork into. Now EVERYTHING is soloable

Then don't be surprised if it's unpopular, majority of players are casuals doing things solo(with randoms). Then there's also the fact that sometimes it can take an hour or two just to make party.

Im not even complaining about the difficulty of raids, the problem is that there simply isint even an option to pug it, you're either a premade or you're not doing it.

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 I haven't done  raids, nor am I a vet, but honestly I don't see the problem with raids staying. If DE just said

"Hey we have to stop fixing raids because its sphagetti code add its bleeding resources, but we are leaving it up while we come up with an entirely new version that doesn't break whenever a programmer sneezes"

I think that would be better for everyone. People who like raids can still play, everyone else can ignore them, Terralysts can still drop arcanes too and DE could stop diverting resources to fixing them while they cook up new ideas. If it eventually gets so broken that nobody can play them at all remove them then.

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