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Ember ideas to improve balance, scaling, and FUN. V2.0


Maka.Bones
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Warning: Hi again. Kinda long. This time, i'm kinda unhinged (the tone is mostly meant as satire). So DE, you don't want ppl to play MEME Ember, with "turn on 4, and forget" right? Ok so first of all, change it to overheat. That's really the only thing you can do, besides nerfing her so much that no one will want to play her. Otherwse, we're just gonna replace 1 power mod, for a range mod. :) the increased damage might actually be nice. 

So this time, i'm gonna touch on DE's changes to fireball, and fireblast, and why they still kinda suck...

Passive: Guessing that the charged fireball won't allow self-proc, based on the gif. So, it's still pretty useless. Please just give us something useful. Idk... maybe like a phoenix being able to self-res?  Or let ember's heat damage, melt enemy armor as a passive.

 

1)  Fireball Condensed fire wisps (tap/charge):  I still like my first idea better... why? because my idea gives a buff, and the new fireball (unless you increase the damage x5, or you're changing heat damage 3.0, to scale with enemies) is going to be useless; just there for decoration/looks. We really won't use it past lvl 30 (if at all). Really tho... Why use an expensive fireball, when I still have WoF, and I can just shoot them with my primary? So pls don't be disappointed later. :)

Spoiler

 

 - Tap to summon 2-5 wisps of condensed fire, that float around her. Each one provides a 5-10%damage increase, that scales with powr str. Tap again, to launch one of the existing wisps towards an enemy in sight; consuming one wisp & buff. *1-hand animation  -wisps could strip armor, and cause an ignition proc.  -Having active wisps, could also count for ember's passive; proccing the effect

  • Casting the initial fire wisps, would proc ember's passive... re-tapping to launch the wisps would cost none, or little energy; making this ability "new player" friendly & still strong. However, charging the ability--or any other abilities cast with the wisps-- would cost increased energy

 - Hold power to charge, then fire a beam of condensed fire (like a lazer). If used with the wisps summoned, it would benefit from the full buff & also consume all active wisps (flamewisps could spin in front of ember, as the source of the energy beam & animation starter).  She wouldn't be able to move, while holding this power.  -This could also act as a *very brief* shield/DR buff while it's charging. - Damage could somewhat overload shields/be proportional to enemy armor, since a charged attack would be stronger.

  • Charging the attack however, would 1) use all wisps & increase damage in proportion to #of wisps 2) cost energy 3) energy cost would be increased, in proportion to the amount of wisps remaining.
    • So 5 wisps = +50% Damage (or Power Str), +50% energy cost (or -50% efficiency). Or if that's still unbalanced, double the energy% cost, per power str% increase (5 wisps = +50% power str = +100% energy cost) . The same increased energy cost, would apply to any ability used with the wisp buff active. This is to balance out the increase in damage, and that they initially procced ember's passive. Also keep in mind, ember's passive doesn't restore energy with WoF turned on.

   *One wisp/buff also becomes consumed, each time a new power is used. An augment could make wisps buff allies too. 

  • alternatively, could make "flamewisps" work & stack like nidus' "mutation stacks" but instead of increasing power efficiency, it would cost energy or hp, for higher damage buff... so people use it more as a burst of damage, than a lifestyle buff

 

 

2) Accelerant:  If you're gonna keep nerfing the range on WoF, ember is going to be so squishy that she will need this to be changed to be more consistent. Because it will become her primary method of CC.

Spoiler

Keep the same existing effects, but change it to work like banshee's silence/savage silence. This would hugely increase ember's survivability. So instead of constantly needing to re-cast & re-apply accelerant to new spawns, it would automatically prime new enemies coming within range of her power and work as a soft CC. It would also maintain the fire damage/cast speed buff to nearby players, and ember (if augmented)

 - @FoxFX suggested to make it work as an aura, though i think it would still need to have the soft CC for the sake of survival : 

 

3) Fireblast Flashfire/Fiery Shift (movement/sustain): I still like my original idea better. Why? because then ember would have an i-frame, and the ability to move about faster. Makes things more fun, and makes her more survivable. But if you really want us to use fireblast, we're gonna need overheat. Honestly, even then it's not worth using it... unless it's like a 1000% heat damage buff.

Spoiler

 - tap to teleport (like itzal's TP, but slower/shorter, and with a fire twist) at an enemy, causing an explosion & knockdown upon impact, and restoring an amount of energy to you & nearby allies based on #enemies hit. Energy restore would still happen even while WoF is active, but would increase the cost to cast (so people can't just spam it while WoF is turned on). While in this animation, you're invulnerable.  *This effect could have a cooldown/animation lag to keep from spamming, but it would enable ember to be a true "caster" frame, and not just a blue skittle addict*  

 

4) World on fire(the "oh sh!t" button): I like the reduced range/increased damage... just not the increased energy cost  Toss this out the window, and replace it with: Overheat.  Especially if you actually want us to use fireblast like that. I mean, really? How are you even considering, that staying in one spot is a good idea in warframe--especially with Ember? Pls guys... And even if you do replace fireblast with something else; if you really don't want us to spam WoF, then you should also replace it with something else too(like overheat). 

Spoiler

 

 - Nvm all that. Just overheat.

Or make it more like saryn's miasma /gara's mass vitrify.... onetime cast, procs KD, damage scales with HP/armor, does more damage on enemies with a fire proc, and the damage would get a benefit from the wisp buff.

 - Tap for normal WoF, but with reduced range/ x2 damage from the start.

  • The reason I didn't want to change her WoF, is because it would actually be a good offensive-defense against melee trash. Could also have damage scale with armor/shields by 10-50% of enemies' defenses (Idk how the enemy scaling-math works). So maybe shrink the range even more...? But then I guess it's more of a girl on fire, or aura of fire/fire armor, instead of a world on fire xD

 *New Augment effect* Hold/charge for 1-2s, to go supernova/nuke/explode like caustic eximus units; knocking down enemies that are hit by this heatwave. Holding the power, would un-toggle WoF after this charge is cast/ is in effect. Or maybe change how WoF works altogether, to be this instead.  *Damage would decrease further away from her. This wouldn't kill anything outside of her accelerant range; just KD. 

 

   Again, please remove/reconsider the suggested increased energy cost for the x2 damage on WoF. Because Ember is already an energy intensive frame--when only her Wof, and her Accelerant abilities are being used. I would like to enjoy my experience killing mobs... not play a game of "find & eat the blue skittles/pizzas"

 

 

Not all of these ideas were meant to be included in the kit (like having a shield while charging her 1st... it was really just a wild idea... (which DE probably won't implement, but it was fun to think of). It was mostly meant to pool of new ideas/concepts. 

This would keep us from "pressing 4 to win"

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this! (those of you who actually did lol) 

TLDR: 1) Toss out WoF, trade it for overheat. 2) New fireball still sucks, but at least it's pretty! (still like my idea better)... 3)Fireblast still sucks, would be better if it were replaced with an i-frame/movement skill, and it makes me think that DE wants all ember users to die... *stand in this very narrow spot, or shoot through a very narrow spot (tunnel vision) to get a mediocre(heat) damage buff!*  DE, damage buffs aren't useful when it makes players get killed. Nice try tho; gold star for effort.

Seriously now, we really won't know until we actually see some numbers & play her ourselves. However, I'm personally not very impressed atm. Though it is my opinion that WoF changes might actually be a buff, if they took away one of the two negatives.

 

Edited by Maka.Bones
I just wanted to type something in this box.
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6 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

4) World on fire(the "oh sh!t" button): I like the reduced range/increased damage... just not the increased energy cost  Toss this out the window, and replace it with: Overheat.

^ that

-I love the fire wisp idea, like really that would make use that ability like, always
-No touchey touchy accerelant, rule #2 (Rule n#1 is no touch wof range. which someone *cough* forgot)
-My only picky thing here is the rework of fire blast, instead of that, i would do something like turbulence
-Wof should do % dmg, like yeah, not 2 high to delete high content, but not 2 low to be useless in low. i think 1% is around a good point IF and cant stress that enoguh, IF it scales with strgh capped at 5%. if not, put to 5% as normal, capped, and unchangeable.

also, nice box comment, i like it
 

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13 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

-No touchey touchy accerelant, rule #2 (Rule n#1 is no touch wof range. which someone *cough* forgot)

I just wanted it to work like banshee's savage silence, or nova's molecular prime. It would be more consistent, and work better, than to have to need to constantly apply it after I kill all the last enemies previously affected.

Quote

-My only picky thing here is the rework of fire blast, instead of that, i would do something like turbulence

Sure, why not? W/e works as long as it's mobility/iframe. 

Quote

-Wof should do % dmg, like yeah, not 2 high to delete high content, but not 2 low to be useless in low. i think 1% is around a good point IF and cant stress that enoguh, IF it scales with strgh capped at 5%. if not, put to 5% as normal, capped, and unchangeable.

No, just get rid of it. I'm good w/o %hp damage, even tho it WOULD scale better. *edit* Or make it more like saryn's miasma /gara's mass vitrify.... onetime cast, procs KD, damage scales with HP/armor, does more damage on enemies with a fire proc, and the damage would get a benefit from the wisp buff.

Then ppl wouldn't "press 4, and forget"

Edited by Maka.Bones
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4 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I just wanted it to work like banshee's savage silence, or nova's molecular prime. It would be more consistent, and work better, than to have to need to constantly apply it after I kill all the last enemies previously affected.

Sure, why not? W/e works as long as it's mobility. 

No, just get rid of it. I'm good w/o %hp damage, even tho it WOULD scale better. 

also, thanks for making me want fire wisps for her 1.... imma start using that suggestion and hope that will b a thing xD

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A few things you need to Understand:

1: She is getting Buffed. Her damage output will be double like the heat is concentrated into a smaller area. People are calling it a Nerf just because of Energy drain which they shouldnt be crying about because they are Zenurik headbangers so its just a matter of dashing a few times to the ground for them to recover their energy.

2: The main issue is not with Ember, its with the Heat proc which hopefully will be solved on Damage 3.0. Heat Procs benefit too little from the power of their source, they also do not stack like other DoT Status which is why its so Crap.

57 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Passive: Guessing that the charged fireball won't allow self-proc, based on the gif. So, it's still pretty useless. Please just give us something useful. Idk... maybe like a phoenix being able to self-res?  Or let ember's heat damage, melt enemy armor as a passive.

I would rather have her keep the current Passive in addition to having her deal Heat damage in an area over time wile ignited. This damage would scale based on her Armor.

The formula would be (Heat Damage Received * Armor/10) over 6 seconds.
This means if normal Ember got hit with 200 Heat damage, she would cause 2000 Heat damage in an AoE over 6 seconds wile Ember Prime would deal 2500 over 6 seconds. Mods that increased Armor would increase the total damage delt. Since this effect is based on the damage she received, it would scale with level difficulty and just to make sure it doesnt go to waste, the effect would persist even when downed, just in case you get hit by that 40K Grineer Napalm shot in Sorties.

Edited by BiancaRoughfin
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11 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

A few things you need to Understand:

1: She is getting Buffed. Her damage output will be double like the heat is concentrated into a smaller area. People are calling it a Nerf just because of Energy drain which they shouldnt be crying about because they are Zenurik headbangers so its just a matter of dashing a few times to the ground for them to recover their energy.

2: The main issue is not with Ember, its with the Heat proc which hopefully will be solved on Damage 3.0. Heat Procs benefit too little from the power of their source, they also do not stack like other DoT Status which is why its so Crap.

I would rather have her keep the current Passive in addition to having her deal Heat damage in an area over time wile ignited. This damage would scale based on her Armor.

The formula would be (Heat Damage Received * Armor/10) over 6 seconds.
This means if normal Ember got hit with 200 Heat damage, she would cause 2000 Heat damage in an AoE over 6 seconds wile Ember Prime would deal 2500 over 6 seconds. Mods that increased Armor would increase the total damage delt. Since this effect is based on the damage she received, it would scale with level difficulty and just to make sure it doesnt go to waste, the effect would persist even when downed, just in case you get hit by that 40K Grineer Napalm shot in Sorties.

Man... people on the forums *really* are selective readers...

So you missed the part where I said "So DE, you don't want ppl to play MEME Ember, with "turn on 4, and forget" right? Ok, so first of all, change it for overheat....Otherwse, we're just gonna replace 1 power mod, for a range mod. :) the increased damage might actually be nice. "

Ok, so please read it again... but actually read it & pay attention this time. Thank you. :) 

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5 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

In what world would ember being buffed ?
double dmg means nothing with anything with armor,  i dont care about the drain, what i want is ember to scale, not to have - 1/4 (not even half cuz its an aoe, so its a circle)

If you sacrifice most efficiency, and duration, for a full-power build, she can actually kill up to lvl80 mobs with her WoF alone. Sprinkle some occasional accelerant, along with a shot, or two of Tigris Prime, and you have a recipe for mass death. :P  I know this, because it's my primary build. 

*edit* so double damage, might actually let her kill everything with her WoF without much trouble. Hence why i think DE should change it altogether, if they want people to not play her like that.

Edited by Maka.Bones
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1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

If you sacrifice most efficiency, and duration, for a full-power build, she can actually kill up to lvl80 mobs with her WoF alone. Sprinkle some occasional accelerant, along with a shot, or two of Tigris Prime, and you have a recipe for mass death. :P  I know this, because it's my primary build. 

100% wof:thinking:

Rip energy in seconds

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Just now, An8rchy said:

100% wof:thinking:

Rip energy in seconds

Yeah, that's pretty much what happens lol. I feel like i'm playng pac-man, instead of warframe *looks for the next blue mote*  The real reason some embers are killing all the enemies isn't because they want to hog all the kills... they're just trying to make more energy motes appear faster, so they can keep up WoF... xD

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27 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I would rather have her keep the current Passive in addition to having her deal Heat damage in an area over time wile ignited. This damage would scale based on her Armor.

The formula would be (Heat Damage Received * Armor/10) over 6 seconds.
This means if normal Ember got hit with 200 Heat damage, she would cause 2000 Heat damage in an AoE over 6 seconds wile Ember Prime would deal 2500 over 6 seconds. Mods that increased Armor would increase the total damage delt. Since this effect is based on the damage she received, it would scale with level difficulty and just to make sure it doesnt go to waste, the effect would persist even when downed, just in case you get hit by that 40K Grineer Napalm shot in Sorties.

I think that having to hurt yourself to kill enemies, is simply a bad idea. Plus ember rarely benefits from her current passive; it's useless anytime there isn't any fire to proc heat on yourself. So why do you want to keep it as is?

Edited by Maka.Bones
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There are many enemies with Fire Based attacks we encounter daily and that easily apply heat procs to us like Grineer Scorch, Grineer Hyekka Masters, Grineers now have alt Grenades, one bing incendiary and there are natural stage hazards that can ignite players. The idea with Ember`s Ignire as passive isnt to be a main source of damage, its a retaliation and can be stack with World of Fire in case the player is affected by it. Also.

Ember gains +35% Power Strength when Ignited, this means that if you cast World of Fire wile ignited, it will be stronger wile you can keep it running. You can easily make a build for her that gives her over 300% Power Strength with this.

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18 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Ember gains +35% Power Strength when Ignited, this means that if you cast World of Fire wile ignited, it will be stronger wile you can keep it running. You can easily make a build for her that gives her over 300% Power Strength with this.

She also gains cast speed, and energy recovery. Yeah, I know her passive. I don't think it's a good one, because all the enemies you mentioned are only grineer.

Only Grineer cause fire procs.  So 3/4ths of the enemies on the entire game (well... 4/5ths if you include sentients) aren't proccing her passive. Meaning that you don't even use it throughout 3/4ths of the entire content.... that's pretty bad. 

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Maka.Bones, all the clap hands were mine.

Ember's passive though, its...effective if it weren't attached to possibly getting one shot by some of the enemies with the highest burst damage in the game (don't forget Fusion Moas which can ignite you).  Or if you take a reduced damage Javlok and constantly keep lit...but sacrificing a primary for some energy (its good energy no mistake), and a power mod, eh, it can be worthwhile with the right primaries, but, its just silly ultimately.

If FB1 and FB3 are actually made more useful than FB1 being an energy stun while reloading, I'll be happy and fine with the changes.  I don't have the feeling they're going to do that and handle this wisely though, given the failure of their change at addressing lazy meme-Ember, or basically allowing us to be only slightly inconvenienced by the change when we aren't playing meme-ember.

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Keep WoF as is and as its changed, and for every enemy within 8m fixed distance of Ember that is burning and affected by WoF/a WoF heat proc, add one stacking instance of 30 armor +power strength scaling. Or gives Ember a stack that lasts for 6 sec, or refills her shields (if shields had mods that let them do something...maybe one day)

Its not scaling and will generally average 90-150 armor before power strength given she may often be in range of 3-6 mobs at a time.  180-300 armor for power strength at a time. It doesn't turn her into a tank, its not quite overheat levels of savagery, but its something to offset the range and reward her for being engaged.


Wonder if I should post this in its own thread.  But...the work is likely already done. This patch is probably dropping tomorrow, didn't they say this week?

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17 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

Wonder if I should post this in its own thread.  But...the work is likely already done. This patch is probably dropping tomorrow, didn't they say this week?

Yeah sometime today (if it hasn't already) but they've said that they will still keep an eye on current changes 

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:30 AM, BiancaRoughfin said:

A few things you need to Understand:

1: She is getting Buffed. Her damage output will be double like the heat is concentrated into a smaller area. People are calling it a Nerf just because of Energy drain which they shouldnt be crying about because they are Zenurik headbangers so its just a matter of dashing a few times to the ground for them to recover their energy.

2: The main issue is not with Ember, its with the Heat proc which hopefully will be solved on Damage 3.0. Heat Procs benefit too little from the power of their source, they also do not stack like other DoT Status which is why its so Crap.

I would rather have her keep the current Passive in addition to having her deal Heat damage in an area over time wile ignited. This damage would scale based on her Armor.

The formula would be (Heat Damage Received * Armor/10) over 6 seconds.
This means if normal Ember got hit with 200 Heat damage, she would cause 2000 Heat damage in an AoE over 6 seconds wile Ember Prime would deal 2500 over 6 seconds. Mods that increased Armor would increase the total damage delt. Since this effect is based on the damage she received, it would scale with level difficulty and just to make sure it doesnt go to waste, the effect would persist even when downed, just in case you get hit by that 40K Grineer Napalm shot in Sorties.

Ember is nerfed into the ground. x2 for x2 cost at 1/4 the area is a straight up nerf.

At 1.4 killing area far too man enemies will be outside of WOF range and they will simply one shot you. They will never get to the killing radius. It doesn't seem possible to take a decent FQ build and double the radius while halving the strength. There aren't enough range mods/slots left to do so. Even if you could do that, it's x2 energy for the same effect. Any way you slice this it's a straight up nerf. It is a nerf to an already underpowered frame at any kind of high level content.

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Ember's updates are pretty cool.

I do have one suggestion. I was wondering if it was possible for ember's energy color to add it's element to ember's damage type, just like chroma does?

ex. ember's base damage is fire and her abilities will always pertain to increasing her fire damage and all that but maybe if ember's energy color was green(or any green type of color) maybe all her abilities could deal gas damage. Of course her abilities like accelerant  would increase her fire damage and all that stuff.

The reason i'm suggesting this is just so that ember can be another warframe with an ability to deal other types of damage to handle different enemies within missions, especially survival. The green energy color and ember doing gas damage on abilities as a result would definitely aid in handling different types of enemies (in this example i think infested hate gas damage or something like that). And then if you need some other type of damage you could change the energy color to fit the mission. :)

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On 2/17/2018 at 12:11 PM, GGbroman said:

Ember's updates are pretty cool.

I do have one suggestion. I was wondering if it was possible for ember's energy color to add it's element to ember's damage type, just like chroma does?

ex. ember's base damage is fire and her abilities will always pertain to increasing her fire damage and all that but maybe if ember's energy color was green(or any green type of color) maybe all her abilities could deal gas damage. Of course her abilities like accelerant  would increase her fire damage and all that stuff.

The reason i'm suggesting this is just so that ember can be another warframe with an ability to deal other types of damage to handle different enemies within missions, especially survival. The green energy color and ember doing gas damage on abilities as a result would definitely aid in handling different types of enemies (in this example i think infested hate gas damage or something like that). And then if you need some other type of damage you could change the energy color to fit the mission. :)

You should post that on the megathread made by DE_Danielle

 

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