To Whom Are These Changes Catered To?

[NPC]

A lot is about to happen/happened in Warframe, we're getting massive weapons buffs (except a select few nerfs), new Eidolons, Warframe reworks (with massive nerfs to Ember and Chroma), Unvaulting is here and now raids are being removed from the game and Arcanes are moved into Eidolon fights.

I've always liked that DE has been able to change things, sometimes even very drastically. They're not afraid to change things. Mostly I've been very content with the changes and when nerfs have happened, I and I guess we as a community, have learned to adapt to new changes.

I think I can call myself a veteran, I do have 1500 hours + on my belt, I've done raids, I've maxed my reputations and my gear.

When I begin to ponder, "what is there left for me to do now?" I usually find myself looking at trading chat, doing sorties and raids. Or a Meso/Axi endless fissure. As a Warframe player I've reached the point in which only self set goals and things to enjoy matter as there isn't any gear, reputation or a game set challenge to actually make me sweat and try my hardest. The only limitations or goals are the ones I set for myself.

Weapon changes are very welcome and I can safely assume a lot of players myself included are more than happy to see a lot of "mastery fodder" receive a buff, whether it's a small or a large one. Ash, Atlas, Mag, Zephyr, Volt and Gara reworks/buffs are also very welcome.

 

But that wraps up the positive changes in this massive wave of content.

Banshee shall remain to be seen, and SQ RQ Banshee was stupidly boring, press 4 and forget and that's clearly the type of gameplay DE is currently trying to avoid. We'll see if the new augment is any good, or shall we just go back to resonance Banshee gameplay. But Ember and Chroma...

Ember was only good at lvl <30 content, press 4 and forget, with firequake augment and accelerant Ember also gave some nice CC and survivability. Reducing the range won't make her any more potent, fire itself is an awful damage type in the current armor heavy enemies, all her smaller radius 4 is going to do is for people to shelve her and just take Equinox and meme strike melee for quick map clearing.

Chroma nerf is a really odd one. If they've knewn that his Vex Armor has been broken since release, why is it important to fix him now? New Eidolon fights can't be too far off of a guess. But nerfing him just forces us to adapt once again, we'll find another loophole and continue one shotting Eidolons in less than a week.

Unvaulting is only beneficial for those with a massive wallet or new players who do not yet have the gear the packs offer. I can understand that if the packs are now very popular, there's no need to change the current format in which they're being sold.

Removing raids then... JV has been buggy as hell always, but LoR doesn't rly have that massive bugs. But why must they be removed? Almost no one plays conclave and that's not being removed from the game. Even though our raids aren't up to most MMO standards, they were still something only "few" dared to approach and conquer. Arcanes were the rewards for being in the "elite" that had the time and patience to learn them and be efficient in them. Removing them takes apart a large chunk of "elite" end game content.

 

I've noticed all of these IMO negative changes have one thing in common:

THEY WERE DESIGNED TO APPEASE CASUAL/NEWISH PLAYERBASE

 

Ember won't be clearing lowbie maps in an instant, Chroma won't probably be one-hitting Eidolons and won't be a forced choice in Eidolon hunting and Banshee won't clear defense waves in minutes. No accessory pack unvaulting means a veteran has almost everything the packs offer making the purchase hard to justify. But new players won't have those older primes. Removing raids means u won't have to enter "hard" raids to get Arcanes, u can just hunt Eidolons like we've been used to now.

This makes me wonder, what is the Endgame content? Fashionframe isn't actual gameplay, Sorties are done in 20-30 minutes. Where is my endgame content in which I'm actually challenged?

 

TL:DR:

Most new stuff that we're getting is meant to new/casual players, there's no proper endgame content. Even raids that were semi-elite content were removed in favor of more simple mechanic.

[Salenstormwing]

Frankly, DE is fixing a lot of stuff that should have been fixed a long time ago. Chroma was ALWAYS broken when he launched but it wasn't a huge issue because there was nothing at the time like an Eidelion that he could 1-shot kill.

Rebalancing weapons to make MR matter has been needing to happen for a LONG time as well. You had high mastery weapons that were garbage and yet MR 0 weapons that were amazing.

In the end, this is about fixing stuff that's been needed fixing for a while.

And if things don't work out quite right, DE has changed things in the past to correct mistakes they have made. DE has earned that respect by doing right by the player base. Give them the benefit of the doubt and actually test drive the stuff before you decide it's bad.

[krc473]

8 minutes ago, NPC said:

THEY WERE DESIGNED TO APPEASE CASUAL/NEWISH PLAYERBASE

This is kind of what I am getting from DE too. I do think there is a problem with that. Essentially, DE is telling the vet players two things:

1. They do not matter to the company.
2. Helping new players is bad. Because they will complain about your stuff, and DE may nerf it.

So, does DE want to create a community of toxicity towards the newer players? I doubt it, but I wonder if it will happen anyway. If you keep telling everyone “we want to help the new players by nerfing your stuff” there certainly may be some resentment towards them.

 

As for endgame content. I suspect that is “sorties” and “Eidolon fights’. DE is doing their “appease the new/casual players changes” now. So surely they must be planning some decent endgame stuff to “appease the vets”, right? I mean, they have to be, don’t they?

[NPC]

6 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

Frankly, DE is fixing a lot of stuff that should have been fixed a long time ago. Chroma was ALWAYS broken when he launched but it wasn't a huge issue because there was nothing at the time like an Eidelion that he could 1-shot kill.

Rebalancing weapons to make MR matter has been needing to happen for a LONG time as well. You had high mastery weapons that were garbage and yet MR 0 weapons that were amazing.

In the end, this is about fixing stuff that's been needed fixing for a while.

And if things don't work out quite right, DE has changed things in the past to correct mistakes they have made. DE has earned that respect by doing right by the player base. Give them the benefit of the doubt and actually test drive the stuff before you decide it's bad.

 

As I mentioned in my post a bit earlier, when nerfs have happened we've learned to adapt. I assume we'll be doing it now as well. 

I will test the stuff and try to find new uses, but we'll see. 

The larger point on my thread was to address that all of the changes were made to cater a certain demograph of players. 

5 minutes ago, krc473 said:

This is kind of what I am getting from DE too. I do think there is a problem with that. Essentially, DE is telling the vet players two things:

1. They do not matter to the company.
2. Helping new players is bad. Because they will complain about your stuff, and DE may nerf it.

So, does DE want to create a community of toxicity towards the newer players? I doubt it, but I wonder if it will happen anyway. If you keep telling everyone “we want to help the new players by nerfing your stuff” there certainly may be some resentment towards them.

 

As for endgame content. I suspect that is “sorties” and “Eidolon fights’. DE is doing their “appease the new/casual players changes” now. So surely they must be planning some decent endgame stuff to “appease the vets”, right? I mean, they have to be, don’t they?

I'm almost getting as cynical, for now I'm just patiently going to wait, but if the return of raid type "elite" content will take almost as long as dark sector rework, I will be long gone by then in search of a challenge. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by NPC

[MechaTails]

Regarding the weapons, they were organized into "tiers". It's reasonable to expect them to be changed to fit their new respective tiers.

[Genoscythe]

il y a 3 minutes, krc473 a dit :

 So surely they must be planning some decent endgame stuff to “appease the vets”, right? I mean, they have to be, don’t they?

Been waiting for that for almost 5 years now.

[Askell91]

There is nothing new about that. They were doing it for years now.. The only problem is they don't get the problem with new players. New players doesen't need new content. (there is plenty already) They need a PROPER tutorial what explains and shows them how systems work in this game. A lot of new players needs this "handholding"....(what i hate in most games but whatever). Most of the time they doesen't even know what or where is the Codex ect ect.. They NEED to make one if they want new players to stay.

Well... for the end game problem. Vets always got the short end of the stick...but to be honest I can't blame them. It's prety hard to make an endgame to a game thats not even finished to a base lvl.

[krc473]

Just now, NPC said:

I'm almost getting as cynical, for now I'm just patiently going to wait, but if the return of raid type "elite" content will take almost as long as dark sector rework, I will be long gone then. 

I do think we should wait and see to judge the frame/weapon changes before judging those. Who knows, maybe DE has made additional changes to make them less severe? 

 

But out getting rid of raids? I think we can agree that it is detrimental. Simply because people like them, and removing them will impact said people. They might then spend less money in game. Besides, DE said “distant future” for the review, so probably years. I see no reason why they cannot just be upfront about it, if you mean 1 - 2 years, say it .

[Salenstormwing]

1 minute ago, NPC said:

The larger point on my thread was to address that all of the changes were made to cater a certain demograph of players. 

And I fundamentally disagree with that assumption.

The stuff going on is stuff that NEEDED to happen for a while. Complain all you want how it helps different "demographics", but that doesn't mean it wasn't something that needed to be done in the first place.

Is it weird it's all happening at once? Yeah, probably, but how long have we been pushing for IPS fixes, for Warframes to be balances, for MR to matter? This is not stuff DE just decided to do because "we gotta make it good for new folks" or whatever. This is stuff to make the game better, that needs to be cleaned up, so its not ONE MORE THING to fix down the line.

The can has been kicked down the road. This is the end of that road. Welcome to the future.

[IggySnow]

To me just seems like DE is changing things that have needed to be changed for a long time. Ember and banshee were clearly going to get nerfed because DE has been saying for a long time that they don't like the "press 4 to win" tactics. Chroma was and always has been broken beyond belief.

And imo I have never enjoyed playing with a banshee or ember because if one of them joins your squad then you know you're in for a boring mission.

Raids being removed makes a ton of sense to me since practically no one ever played them. They weren't some "elite" that only the best players could complete. They were just a big puzzle that got solved 3 days after they were released, and if someone tried to play them without knowing the solution to the puzzle then they were yelled and screamed at and told to uninstall the game for making the so called "elite" players waste 10 minuets. 

[Man_In_Suitcase]

8 minutes ago, NPC said:

THEY WERE DESIGNED TO APPEASE CASUAL/NEWISH PLAYERBASE

Warframe is a business at the end of the day and appealing to newer players is good for the longivity of any game. However I do get that this can be to the behest of veterans as we often feel left out and neglected in favor for making it more accessible. Now raid are going it's even more difficult for vets to call a place home and while DEsteve stated prior to the release of PoE that Eidolons were going to be specifically tailored torwards vets, it now seems quite the opposite is in fact happening.

The game has always had an issue with 'endgame' but I felt they were on the right track with raids, even if some didn't run them religiously.    

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Warframe to this day never had a proper PvE endgame, so your criticism could be applied to literally every change they've done ever. Actually, most PvE centric online games don't have a true endgame because many players have been conditioned to accept that the only type of endgame that PvE can experience is to be put on an endless gear treadmill.

Acquiring new gear hidden behind the most difficult parts of the game is not endgame. There is no gameplay loop once a player has everything or everything he wants. Endgame by definition is the part of a game that you can endlessly progress in regardless of whether you play it for ten hours or ten thousand. Warframe never had that, not in a defined, systemic way. Invasions, the Razorback/Fomorian attacks and Ghoul outbreaks are the closest it has ever come to PvE endgame content, and even then, none of those events have significant fail states. Some are even manipulated to not be allowed to fail(Relay defense missions).

True endgame in PvE doesn't require you to do million damages or be able to tank one shotting level 500 Napalms. That's bad game design you're asking for. The only type of PvE endgame I can see is for players to be allowed to change the world state at a large scale by doing specific missions, with a complex relationship system deciding in the background how a completed spy mission on pluto would affect the factions. The problem with such a system is that it can become very volatile very fast, but that is also its main draw. The most empowering feeling for a veteran isnt to kill enemies with higher and higher health values. It's to feel like they have a true impact on the game world they spent so much time in already. But if you tell them that they'll just yell "gimme more shinies so I can kill stronger enemies" like an addict obsessed with getting that fleeting kick out of seeing their damage numbers rise.

PvE endgame is a typical case of players not knowing they want something until you show them, mostly because they've been not been exposed to anything else besides one type of unsustainable grind.

[Olianu]

1 hour ago, NPC said:

Chroma won't probably be one-hitting Eidolons and won't be a forced choice in Eidolon hunting

If you missed their actual discussion on this.  They admitted that they didn't intend for eidolons to be one shot.  The Chroma change is because they saw it as an issue in the game and wanted to address it.

 

1 hour ago, NPC said:

all her smaller radius 4 is going to do is for people to shelve her and just take Equinox and meme strike melee for quick map clearing.

Of course it will happen, very few would deny that.  However they also showed that Ember will be dong significantly more damage the longer World on Fire stays on.  Yes they are aiming at the "casual" player base, but people have complained about her power for years for the range juggling and the damage output early on and late game.  This is a test of trying to cover two problems in one movement to see how well it will work.  And if it does poorly, that is why forums are here to give constructive feedback.

 

1 hour ago, NPC said:

Removing raids then... JV has been buggy as hell always, but LoR doesn't rly have that massive bugs. But why must they be removed?

To look at the system and try to figure out how to improve on them/fix them.

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Olianu

[NPC]

19 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

And I fundamentally disagree with that assumption.

The stuff going on is stuff that NEEDED to happen for a while. Complain all you want how it helps different "demographics", but that doesn't mean it wasn't something that needed to be done in the first place.

Is it weird it's all happening at once? Yeah, probably, but how long have we been pushing for IPS fixes, for Warframes to be balances, for MR to matter? This is not stuff DE just decided to do because "we gotta make it good for new folks" or whatever. This is stuff to make the game better, that needs to be cleaned up, so its not ONE MORE THING to fix down the line.

The can has been kicked down the road. This is the end of that road. Welcome to the future.

For the third time: Nerfs have always happened I don't mind them and I'll adapt, just now it happened to be on frames that were exceptionally good in efficient gameplay clearing stuff quickly. To me at least those changes were made in mind of trying to eliminate meta gameplay and make things more accessible. That helps exceptionally well newer players with not as much stuff to play with. 

I never said weapon changes were a bad thing, I said I liked them and assumed the community in general also likes them.

To me it seems u're clinging on just few points in my post where u assume there are holes that u're trying to poke without accepting the broader view I tried to make with my post. 

18 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

To me just seems like DE is changing things that have needed to be changed for a long time. Ember and banshee were clearly going to get nerfed because DE has been saying for a long time that they don't like the "press 4 to win" tactics. Chroma was and always has been broken beyond belief.

And imo I have never enjoyed playing with a banshee or ember because if one of them joins your squad then you know you're in for a boring mission.

Raids being removed makes a ton of sense to me since practically no one ever played them. They weren't some "elite" that only the best players could complete. They were just a big puzzle that got solved 3 days after they were released, and if someone tried to play them without knowing the solution to the puzzle then they were yelled and screamed at and told to uninstall the game for making the so called "elite" players waste 10 minuets. 

Same as above with my frame comments, but it's sad to see how toxic u assume raiding to be. I didn't raid for a long time and it was quite tough at the beginning. But after learning the ropes and attempting speedrunning has been the most challenging things I've done in this game. 

Yesterday I got a new PB on LoR with under 12 minute run. I can't remember last time I was as satisfied in warframe. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by NPC

[IggySnow]

1 minute ago, NPC said:

For the third time: Nerfs have always happened I don't mind them and I'll adapt, just now it happened to be on frames that were exceptionally good in efficient gameplay clearing stuff quickly. To me at least those changes were made in mind of trying to eliminate meta gameplay and make things more accessible. That helps exceptionally well newer players with not as much stuff to play with. 

I never said weapon changes were a bad thing, I said I liked them and assumed the community in general also likes them.

To me it seems u're clinging on just few points in my post where u assume there are holes that u're trying to poke without accepting the broader view I tried to make with my post. 

Same as above with my frame comments, but it's sad to see how toxic u assume raiding to be. I didn't raid for a long time and it was quite tough at the beginning. But after learning the ropes and attempting speedrunning has been the most challenging things I've done in this game. 

Yesterday I got a new PB on LoR with under 12 minute run. I can't remember last time I was as satisfied in warframe. 

Theres nothing wrong with making things more accessible to newer players. and I dont think they were made specificity for new players. I think they were made because DE doesn't like how pressing a single button one time trivializes half the content in the game.

[NPC]

1 minute ago, HerpDerpy said:

Theres nothing wrong with making things more accessible to newer players. and I dont think they were made specificity for new players. I think they were made because DE doesn't like how pressing a single button one time trivializes half the content in the game.

But u can't argue the fact that making things more accessible makes a larger difference to those who have fewer tools to use rather than those who have a large set of tools? 

I never said the nerfs were unjustified, I merely voiced my concerns about them. We'll see how they go down after the reworks are implemented in the game 

[Hypernaut1]

So ummm... What did vets like about raids? I've done several of them and they mostly amount to cc enemies to complete puzzles. 15 kills in a raid is considered high. 

The missions were mainly the exact same. The frames used were almost always the same. The only challenge came from players not knowing what to do. 

I say good riddance to raids. 

Everytime I tried raids with an unconventional group, players would quit.

I will admit that it could be satisfying when a raid was completed quickly and quietly. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Fishyflakes]

Hi.

I like most of these changes (many don't really affect me like Mastery Rank requirements.)

But it's not fair to call the Chroma changes a nerf.

Thanks OP but you're terrible

[NPC]

26 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Warframe to this day never had a proper PvE endgame, so your criticism could be applied to literally every change they've done ever. Actually, most PvE centric online games don't have a true endgame because many players have been conditioned to accept that the only type of endgame that PvE can experience is to be put on an endless gear treadmill.

Acquiring new gear hidden behind the most difficult parts of the game is not endgame. There is no gameplay loop once a player has everything or everything he wants. Endgame by definition is the part of a game that you can endlessly progress in regardless of whether you play it for ten hours or ten thousand. Warframe never had that, not in a defined, systemic way. Invasions, the Razorback/Fomorian attacks and Ghoul outbreaks are the closest it has ever come to PvE endgame content, and even then, none of those events have significant fail states. Some are even manipulated to not be allowed to fail(Relay defense missions).

True endgame in PvE doesn't require you to do million damages or be able to tank one shotting level 500 Napalms. That's bad game design you're asking for. The only type of PvE endgame I can see is for players to be allowed to change the world state at a large scale by doing specific missions, with a complex relationship system deciding in the background how a completed spy mission on pluto would affect the factions. The problem with such a system is that it can become very volatile very fast, but that is also its main draw. The most empowering feeling for a veteran isnt to kill enemies with higher and higher health values. It's to feel like they have a true impact on the game world they spent so much time in already. But if you tell them that they'll just yell "gimme more shinies so I can kill stronger enemies" like an addict obsessed with getting that fleeting kick out of seeing their damage numbers rise.

PvE endgame is a typical case of players not knowing they want something until you show them, mostly because they've been not been exposed to anything else besides one type of unsustainable grind.

Personally my background is from MMOs and I love the basic idea behind them: u work as a team  to take down massive sponges that rewards u some way. 

A system as u showcased would most likely be a very intriguing one, but personally I can only see that type of system in dreams, sounds quite hard to implement. 

With endgame content I'm not meaning taking down lvl 10000 bombards, more like Kela De Thaym type of enganging multiphase bossfights that would force u to work together to win. 

Locking game changing gear behind that type of content would be bad IMO, but some type of Arcanes could be rewards, they just add a little more juice that's not necessary for general gameplay. 

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

So ummm... What did vets like about raids? I've done several of them and they mostly amount to cc enemies to complete puzzles. 15 kills in a raid is considered high. 

The missions were mainly the exact same. The frames used were almost always the same. The only challenge came from players not knowing what to do. 

I say good riddance to raids. 

Everytime I tried raids with an unconventional group, players would quit.

Sad to see such toxicity towards raids. I liked challenging myself to be as fast as possible and the potential profit u could gain from stuff like Energize was nice. 

1 minute ago, Fishyflakes said:

... Thanks OP but you're terrible

Hi mom! 

[Tricky5hift]

1 hour ago, NPC said:

THEY WERE DESIGNED TO APPEASE CASUAL/NEWISH PLAYERBASE

You realize this game is casual by default?

There is literally nothing competitive or exceptionally difficult about this game.

[(PSN)Dublincore]

1 hour ago, NPC said:

Even though our raids aren't up to most MMO standards, they were still something only "few" dared to approach and conquer. Arcanes were the rewards for being in the "elite" that had the time and patience to learn them and be efficient in them. Removing them takes apart a large chunk of "elite" end game content.

I kind of agree and disagree here. Many vets (which I'm not part of, so i could have some bias) talk about this, but from the DE business side there could be at least 2 indicators that you're missing:

- MR frequency distribution (do we know something about it? I didn't find - of course - any official information on this): usually you don't take bold decisions if, at least on average, those decisions aren't largely affecting the player base. So if on a hypothetical distribution the "vets" don't mean much in terms of numbers you obviously should pay more attention to lower level players.

- Average player's life cycle: again, we don't have numbers but if Arcanes and other so called "elite game content" could affect relatively new players, let's say around MR 10-15, and have some impact on their loyalty, i don't see why you - from a business perspective - shouldn't mix things up a bit and use some leverage. 

I'm not saying that we don't need tough and elite endgame content, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but what if this game has an average life cycle of 1yr, and in the frequency distribution most players aren't in the vets group at all?

The next 50.000 new account won't even know what Chroma/Ember/Banshee were before the changes and that Arcanes were once not dropped by Eidolons. Also what if new players are much more inclined to buy some Platinum? Should all elite content and the "only few" thing be actually... a thing? Or this game is simply evolving towards a more condensed experience?

I don't know, i guess many answers could just hide, although partially, behind a lot of data.

Edited February 8, 2018 by (PS4)Dublincore

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

2 to 3k hours in and I can be sure of only 2 things:

DE has consistently made things better as time has gone and that you will never be able to please veteran players mostly because veteran players are in no way a single group.  I am a veteran player and all the changes make me super pumped.  Some of my weapons I have are finally getting a little love.  Also by now everyone should know that DE doesn't leave things in that let you just sit in place and not play.  Room on Fire and Boredom Quake always made for super boring runs...

End game is a myth.  You eventually hit the proverbial wall were there are no new lands left to conquer.  Ask yourself, am I still having fun?  If yes keep playing, if no take a break.  Come back in 6 months and see what new things have happened and see if you start having fun again. After 4 years I kinda have to trust DE at this stage, and if it ever takes a direction I am not happy with and I stop having fun I'll walk away like with any other game.

[Salenstormwing]

1 hour ago, NPC said:

To me it seems u're clinging on just few points in my post where u assume there are holes that u're trying to poke without accepting the broader view I tried to make with my post. 

No, I just think it doesn't matter what your "broader view" is. Your broader view could be that the sky looked better in a different shade of blue. It's a non-factor to me.

In the end, this stuff needed to happen. It's not a big conspiracy. It's just something that needed to occur. And that's all it is to me.

Frankly, the only way this next update could be better, is if they made improvements to Archwing at the same time. And I'm sure that DE is working on that, but it isn't ready for prime time. The update as it stands though, with Warframe changes and weapon MR rebalancing... that's ready for prime time.

I'm not saying your broader view is bad. I just don't see the point in it when we know the stuff that needed to be changed is finally getting changed.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Salenstormwing

[Interlagos]

If they could just leave raids in and not worry about it, I'm sure they would, but the problem is that updates and changes create bugs and other issues that need to be continually addressed, and its an inefficient use of resources considering the small percentage of people who do them regularly. They feel the time and effort spent fixing raids after every update would be better spent on other things, and while I think it's unfortunate, I personally agree with it.

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

Well, if they cater to those of us who have everything already, then they're going to go broke. You see the difficult situation they're in now?