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[DE]Danielle

Update 22.12.0: Warframe Changes Feedback Megathread

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My Feedback for Zephyr:

Tail Wind Charging mechanic: I feel that there isn't much incentive to charge this ability to jump.

Pros:

  • You reach higher altitudes than a bullet jump.
  • You can cast a free Tail Wind on air.
  • Hovering gives you time to stalk your enemies from above and decide where you want to go with your free Tail Wind, also, it synergize with mods that give damage reduction while airborne and you can shoot explosive weapons that have self-damage safely.

Cons:

  • You are vulnerable while charging it.
  • You can achieve almost the same effect and CHEAPER by just bullet jumping and casting Tail Wind in air which is 12.5 energy. (25 Vs 12.5).
  • Hovering doesn't give any real or big benefit, Zephyr have Vortex which make her invulnerable to projectiles which turns damage reduction while airborne mods in useless and in Warframe you don't stay quiet in the same place for a long time. You can achieve almost the same effect by just pressing your RMB.
  • Dive Bomb still is useless as a CC or Damage skill, is better to use a melee slam attack instead.

How to make it better:

  • Dive Bomb should be the damage not Tail Wind dash.
  • Dive Bomb need damage scaling.
  • Charging should increase the damage of Dive Bomb.
  • Charging should be removed or should have a lower charging time.
  • While charging, Zephyr should have some damage reduction or something.
  • The augment should add something to Dive Bomb too.

Tornadoes: This ability stil is almost the same in comparison to before the rework in terms of CC.

Pros:

  • You have more control over the tornadoes where they spawn.
  • You can change easier the elemental damage.
  • Is recasteable.
  • You can increase the height of the tornado.

Cons:

  • Moving the tornadoes with the aim is difficult and chaotic.
  • Is difficult to maintain enemies inside the tornadoes.
  • Shooting Air Burst to increase the height of the tornado can push the enemies inside the tornadoes to outside of their reach.

How to make it better:

  • It would be better to highlight the nearest tornado and move it using the targeting mechanic of Chroma Effigy augment.
  • Air burst shouldn't push the enemies that are inside the tornadoes to outside.
  • Air Burst should increase the Height and Wide of the tornado which should increase the suction radius.
  • Tornadoes need to move faster.
  • The augment is useless, it would be better to create one big(taller and wider) tornado.

The fun factor of Zephyr isn't only in Tail Wind, is in Dive Bomb too.

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Volts discharge is currently at half duration regardless of distance from the enemy when you cast it. Also, it still has the 4 second grace period where enemies take no damage; It needs to be removed since it was only necessary because of the damage cap. Scott obviously intends for Volt to be damage, so it makes zero sense for discharge to have a 4 second delay before it starts dealing damage. Please fix it. 

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Since I'm mainly a Chroma user, here's my comments regarding Chroma (fyi, I play on both PS4 and PC, it's just easier to log on with the first account I created) :

  • I understand the nerf to Chroma's Fury, he still hold his own pretty well. I cannot comment on the extent of the buff since I don't have forma'd build for the other buffers on PC. The sad thing is that he cannot allow a player to use crappy guns and turn them into amazing ones (no, the recent weapon buffs didn't fix that).
  • Regarding Chroma's Scorn, please reverse this buff or fix it to fit your need for some unneeded standardization calculation, but nobody enjoys the wet cardboard version of Chroma, it's just sad. Ability user have a tank frame (Nidus), melee user have a tank frame (Wukong and to some extent Inaros), please don't take away from us the only gun user tank frame.
  • I also understand the desire to fix the whole dragon concept of Chroma, but the fact is no main Chroma user use him for his dragon themed skill, and the new version of his #1 definitely won't change that. I'm confident most main Chroma user use him because he's the best gun user tank frame in the game, so please just give up on the whole dragon theme, or rush to the sketch table and come up with a gun user tank frame for everyone that just lost their favorite frame.

I'm pretty sure that almost every main Chroma user will just switch to a new main frame and move on, but for a minority, uninstalling is definite consideration (I know it is for me). This is a third person shooter and the lack of face-tanking gunner might be, for a few players, the push to just go play some new game. My intention is not to gain your pity, it's just a fact that I've seen, in my previous MMO experiences, player leave a game when their only or main way to enjoy a game is taken away.

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Can someone explain to me how the update changed the way Vex changes Chroma's armor?  I hear that he's less survivable now.

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6 hours ago, LastRide said:

Look, most changes are awesome and I love it. 

But "Volt is not CC".

Guess what he's doing. I just tested max strenght discharge against both armor and flesh (corpus tech) and the damage was inexistent against armor and laughable for max strenght against Corpus. Volt still does nothing but CC and unfortunately, as much as an alternative to gunplay as Atlas is a healer. Volt needs more changes if he's not supposed to be CC and should be dealing damage instead. 

 

Hard to second this enough.  I'm sorry, but this Discharge is very sad.

I just took a solid dose of an amazing anti-depressant (she's wonderful medicine), and I still feel sick at this change.  Nothing I do makes this work.  The duration is too short (just like Speed), the area is too inconsistant (actually worsening Volt's dependance on Range), and the damage doesn't exist, so Strength is REQUIRED to get ANY effect out of it.

Guess what?  When something needs maximization in ALL CATEGORIES in order to function as intended, it's broken.  I'm VERY sorry to say this, but this update did more to hurt Volt than to help him.

It's very sad, but even all the weapons buffs aren't making me feel good here.  I'm not playing any of the other 'Frames.  I just want to revert Volt to an old, unsatisfying state from earlier today, if only because there was a build that could make some use of all of his skills.  That build was taken away.

The very worst part here is that Volt is EVEN MORE unfriendly to new players now than ever before.  High-level Volt players are going to roll nothing but Speed builds (confusing and confounding anyone not familiar with movement in Warframe) or Discharge builds (frying rooms of low level mobs over and over, stealing all the kills), and no new player will be able to match that for WEEKS of play.  New players cannot even hope to build Volt like veterans can because of the difference in mods.

This version of Discharge requires max Range and Duration, plus very high Efficiency for spamming.  That means that you cannot use Speed at all.  Speed requires high Strength, and to date it's the only skill Volt has that REWARDS Strength.

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37 minutes ago, Soulgazer said:

Can someone explain to me how the update changed the way Vex changes Chroma's armor?  I hear that he's less survivable now.

Well if it stays how it is...

 

Here. This is the answer:

 

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My feedback towards changes towards Banshee's Soundquake Augment: All Sonic Boom No Quake

The augment turns soundquake into a glorified sonic boom that actually deals damage and has a full 360 degree effect.

I do like the new changes, BUT soundquake should not expire immediately upon reaching full range and needs to maintain at range for at least several seconds.

As it stands now the smaller your range is, the more it turns into sonic boom and the more time you spend recasting the ability to rag doll.

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49 minutes ago, Soulgazer said:

Can someone explain to me how the update changed the way Vex changes Chroma's armor?  I hear that he's less survivable now.

Before it was multiplicative on his modded/buffed armor values, now its additive like an additional Steel Fiber.  Combined with changes to Arcanes...

My Chroma's EHP went from 222k to 30k an ~85% reduction, a 70% reduction from 100k if you count changes to arcanes separately.

Similar thing to damage, it went from 5000%+ (~835% without double dipping) multiplier to a 1320% additive value stacking like an additional Serration type mod.  All in all its slightly stronger for me than an equally modded Rhino's Roar (240% multiplier) barring base damage Rivens and buffs from Octavias and other Chromas.

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banshee is way more broken now.

YOu can just spam her Quake ability, and have the same effect as the Old quake. I was able to bug the casting, and ended up doing a sound quake like the old way before rework but was not able to recreate it. Now it is not a channeled ability, so you can use Zenurik energy overflow, and even Energy pads to gain energy.  My build i reduce my efficiency, add more power strength, add Natural Talent (73%% duration.85% efficiency, 205% range, and 224% Power Str)  Resonating quake is needed so it increases the range of the quake to cover the entire map.

Sound quake needs to be something like Nyx Absorb with Assimilate.  That is you have the ability up like a channeled ability, and have limited movement, but can still interact with the environment.  

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Can you give fire blast the opposite effect to enemies? reduce the damage of incoming shots and nullify bombard's rocket and napalm's napalm? Using fireblast for the fire damage buff will severely limit your movement. So i think a way to reduced the damage is a proper addition.

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I've posted this on a different thread, but I thought I would add it here as well...

 

I am an ember main, and while I have used her for nuking lower level enemies, I have also used her for cc. By cutting her range in half for wof, her augment is useless. Her first ability seems very expensive, especially for a caster. Her third ability doesn't scale with range, and the increase in heat damage when shooting through her fire blast doesn't do much. Heat damage is probably one of the worst scaling damages in late game.

For suggestions (yes, I am still suggesting changes even after the rework):

I would like for her first ability to be replaced with overheat, as it will give her a level of survivability, now that we can't depend on WOF for cc.

Her second ability should have a longer stun duration, hopefully scaling with power duration.

Her third ability should scale with range, which can make the augment for it viable. 

Her fourth ability should have additional status chance. If her range is going to be halved, might as well increase the status chance so that her damage can at least scale into late game.

Finally, her passive. It should be changed completely. 

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My opinion is that while Atlas' rubble mechanic is good, I suspect DE kept the numbers on the conservative side so as to not make it too powerful. I think petrify costs too much energy for the effect you get out of it, and the armor decay on rubble is a little fast. Let it stay constant for a while longer, and then decay at a slower rate. Also would be nice to have a wider pickup range and a sound effect for stacking rubble. Otherwise, loving the changes. Good work, DE!

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As expected the changes to Chroma are knee jerk, and has completely destroyed his survivability, simply because he was doing too much damage to one darn enemy.

Thank you DE, you ruined another frame.....

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So much for solo survival Ember.

WoF range combined w/ Firequake catching enemies as they came into range was what was great.
You killed it's range and energy drain, the two things that it was actually useful for later on.

If you wanted to nerf it clearing out huge areas in low level missions, you could have just removed it's damage and made it a utility skill while buffing her other abilities to have targeted damage. That way it retains usefulness across all levels.

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As someone who had looked forward to this change as one that would finally make Banshee's ultimate a solo utility and not only a squad-support ability, I am completely underwhelmed.

Let's talk about how this ability works in an actual mission and not as an AFK button:

  • Damage-wise, it's no good against anything past level 10 mobs. Epicenter damage is negligible and the so-called "all at once" impact in place of damage over time might as well not be there for how insubstantial it is.
  • CC-wise, the expectation for a lot of players (myself included) was that with the augment we could place a pulse on the ground while running around stun-locked enemies, basically the same as if we were playing alongside a Banshee and not Banshee herself. In reality, what we got is a weak, costly momentary stagger. There is literally no incentive why anyone should use this where they could use Banshee's first ability, because that ragdolls enemies.

I personally don't mind the damage as I've never deemed Resonating Quake a DPS ability. It's a team-supporter. Sacrificing her own movement, Banshee would transform the battlefield into a sandbox that her squad could exploit in a modicum of ways. This update was supposed to allow Banshee to join in on the fun at the cost of a shorter duration, or at least that was my personal impression.

Thanks for reading :D

P.S: Mag is amazing.

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Satisfied Mag Main.  I would appreciate around 5% Overshield gain on Polarize (no more than that) but as it stands now I am very satisfied  :highfive:

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I'm sorry, I tried to like it, but please, please make Petrify a channeled ability again. All of Atlas' other changes seem balanced around Petrify as a channeled ability. The burst cast is too expensive for repeated usage, the instant burst doesn't hit enough enemies to be worth it, the rubble doesn't last long enough to maintain with how often you are able to cast it, and Ore Gaze (which, trade secret, is how I kept Atlas' energy up before) has been nerfed so that neither the extra loot is worth the cost, nor can it keep up by generating energy orbs. Now either all of this can be rebalanced, or it can be returned to a channeled skill with all other changes intact (except maybe de-nerfing Ore Gaze? please?) and I feel it will be fun again. I think it's funny that a burst cast Petrify is all many people wanted, yet it's the thing that (in my opinion) ruins all the other changes.

Shameless plug, but I posted a simple hybrid solution recently that I believe will fix all of my current gripes, while also mollifying those who didn't like the channeled cast. Not sure how to link to that, but I'll figure it out if people really want.

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I have given detailed feedback on Ember's WoF change when it was proposed here and here. I wouldn't want to clutter this post by repeating too much of it, but please consider my previous two posts when evaluating player feedback on WoF.

I promised to do more testing when the changes went live.

Note that I'm testing primarily with high-strength builds with Flash Accelerant and without Firequake for the reasons below. If you already feel that high-strength builds are the way to go, feel free to skip this part.
- Knockdown is worse CC than a heat proc because it forces players to re-target and makes it harder to get headshots. Firequake reduces effective team DPS. See the links for video demonstration. The only advantage of Firequake is that it does not rely on power strength, allowing players to build for range and efficiency instead.
- Having said that, low-strength high-range Firequake builds are viable in sorties. However, the CC is worse than that of dedicated CC frames (say Vauban or Nyx), and with low power strength Ember cannot provide anything else.
- High-strength builds with moderate range that use Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy can provide a very strong team DPS buff (about 4x with FA, 7x with FA + FF, on armor-stripped targets, viral+heat weapon builds; please contact me if you need details of builds, calculations, testing videos, etc.). These same Ember builds also provide CC from WoF heat procs that is almost as good as that from a Firequake build.
- Consequently, even though high-strength builds are expensive to put together and require effort to use well, they are currently the most effective Ember builds at higher levels (about lvl 80-150). They give Ember a niche: using a single build, she can provide a stronger damage buff than Rhino or Nova and much better CC than a Sonar/Resonance Banshee. An Ember that is restricted to CC only is much weaker than Vauban/Nyx/Loki/any-CC-frame. An Ember that is restricted to buffing only is a much weaker Banshee or an Octavia with much less utility. The only thing that made Ember even remotely worth using at high levels is that she could both give strong buffs and provide good CC.

With that out of the way, here is a video of Ember fighting sortie-level enemies after the WoF changes:

I tried my best to use WoF the way the Devs who worked on this change intended: Toggle the ability on and off as needed instead of running it constantly. The result at high levels is that Ember is constantly struggling to keep her energy up and has to take frequent breaks. Additionally, CC effectiveness drops significantly after 5 seconds of use due to the reduced range. Also, I got killed on many attempts due to (1) not having enough energy to sustain CC and (2) being shot by enemies just outside of WoF range as the range starts shrinking.

Before the change, WoF was already self-limiting at high levels. I could either keep it up for about a minute in a tough fight and then take a break to recover OR toggle it as needed and maintain enough energy throughout the whole mission. It wasn't OP: if you watch the linked videos, you'll see that Ember has to be really active and careful (see how I got killed in the second one). After the change, energy is a serious problem. In a team setting, I do not have enough left to buff allies. I have to either focus on CC or on buffing. Previously, I could run a sortie while keeping Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy constantly on all my teammates, while using WoF for CC when needed. I can't pull this off now, and it's problematic because Ember no longer has anything to make her worth picking over other frames.

Ember was not in a great state to begin with, and the popular opinion was that she's no good for high levels. Despite this, good players could still make her work surprisingly well, but it required 4xCP, at least one augment (usually 2), specialized weapons builds, and skilled and active play. After the change, we'll need to add Arcane Energize to the list of things needed to make a high-strength Ember worth using. This is not OK.

The WoF change was made to address one issue: WoF was ridiculously OP at low levels and promoted "lazy" play (again only at low levels). However, the change seriously crippled Ember's high-level performance and made one of her two viable high-level builds unusable.

To quote from the patch announcement:
"overbearing abilities can make squadmates feel ineffective by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow. Conversely, when a Warframe doesn’t do enough, players may simply choose a 'better' frame, sacrificing personalization and diversity for efficiency. Neither of these situations are ideal, so let’s shake things up!"

WoF used to be one of those "overbearing abilities" (again only at low levels). I'm honestly glad that was addressed. However, the change was very poorly thought out and effectively put Ember on the other extreme of the spectrum: It reduced her build diversity for high-levels and made her objectively a poorer choice than most other frames.

As a further demonstration that those behind the change did not think it through, take this other quote:
"These changes increase lethality at higher levels, while addressing the ability’s huge range."

WoF damage was and is completely laughable above lvl 70 or so. It is only useful for CC. The effective range at high levels also isn't huge. Here's why: WoF can only target a limited number of enemies at a time and preferentially targets closer enemies (you can see this in the linked video too). At low levels, it insta-kills enemies and thus moves from target to target wiping everyone within its range. At high levels, WoF does not kill. If range is greatly increased with mods, more enemies are now within it. However, since they are not killed, WoF keeps jumping between nearby targets and leaving those further away mostly unaffected. WoF was already balanced at higher levels. It did not need a nerf there.

 

Suggestions for further changes to WoF:

- Revert the energy and range penalties. Reduce damage and make it fall off with range.
     * Consequences: greatly reduced OPness at low levels; high-level performance (i.e. CC) is intact
-OR-
- Revert the energy and range penalties. Make WoF do zero damage beyond half range.
     * Consequences: Exactly the same as the currently-implemented change at low levels; high-level performance (i.e. CC) is intact
-OR-
- Keep energy/range counter, but make kills scored with weapons reduce the counter.
     * Consequences: Players who put in effort and play actively are rewarded. Passive play is punished. Note that this effectively limits WoF at low levels because a "clear-everything-instantly" build will kill enemies before the player can shoot them. At high levels, WoF won't kill, but kills are harder to get with weapons, so the reward is fair.

Finally, please please keep as many playstyles and builds as possible in mind when proposing changes. I cannot stress this enough!

Here are 3 common Ember builds and how they were affected:
- [Low-Level] Moderate strength, high range, good efficiency: Can no longer cheese low-level content with not effort. Still effective, but requires more work on the player's part.
     * This is OK.
- [High-level] Low-moderate strength, high range, good efficiency, Firequake: CC effectiveness reduced due to reduced range and inability to keep WoF going as often.
     * This is NOT OK. These builds would still work because one could totally sacrifice strength to max out range and efficiency, but they are much weaker. Nerfing this use of WoF for CC at high-levels was certainly not stated as a goal of the changes, and this build is certainly not something people complained about being OP. If anything, people wanted buffs for high-level Ember. While I'm personally not a fan of Firequake, I'm upset that the WoF change affected this build.
- [High-level] High-strength, moderate range, moderate efficiency, Flash Accelerant, Fireball Frenzy (optional): These builds are hit the hardest. If spending energy on buffing allies, WoF is now almost unusable and cannot reliably contribute to CC.
     * This is VERY NOT OK

Note 1: Hybrids of the second and third builds now also perform poorly.
Note 2: I have seen suggestions to exempt Firequake from the current nerfs. While this is better than what we have now, it is not acceptable because Firequake was not the only way to use WoF for CC at high levels.

To the developers working on these changes:
Please reconsider the WoF change. There are more elegant solutions that achieve the intended goal without nerfing Ember's CC at higher levels. I agree that WoF wiping everything up to level 50 with zero effort had to be addressed. But please don't do it in a way that punishes players who use Ember in more challenging content. I understand that it's hard to please everyone and that we, the players, can sometimes be demanding, unappreciative, and swift to judge. In this case however, many many people are upset for very good reasons. Please respect them and do not disappoint them.

I will post a second response once I test FireBlast and Fireball more thoroughly. So far, the change to FireBlast is nice, but does not in any way compensate for what was done to WoF.

 

 

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Nothing to say about Zephyr's tail wind : the change is effective, welcomed and efficient. However, Air Burst is kind of underwhelming, same for Tornado changes. However, what's the point about charging the ability ?

Air burst seems to cost a lot of energy for quite an underwhelming CC value. Perhaps it should be able to ragdoll stuff better. As it stands, ragdoll doesn't feel satifying to use enough, and I have a lot of trouble to justify the use of that power for light CC over a simple cast of Tail Wind airborne while looking at the ground. It just feels like a much more effective form of light CC, especially with a max range build.

Tornado changes are also almost impossible to see. They move too slow, pick up enemies with a range that is just way too short, and the steering effect doesn't work. It basically feels like the old Tornado skill, but slightly more consistent with the slightly improved targetting. Of course, it's still an incredibly underwhelming CC power compared to most CC based 100 energy powers. Consider speeding up the pace at which tornado moves, and improve that steering mechanic. Maybe Tornado Speed could be affected by power range ?

The combo between Air Burst and Tornado seems to work decently though I don't really get the point about doing it. Does it extend the pick up radius ?

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15 minutes ago, Cornelius.EE said:

Previously, I could run a sortie while keeping Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy constantly on all my teammates, while using WoF for CC when needed.

Sorry to take just one small part out of your very informative and well-written post, but I just seized upon the facts that:

1. Ember has two Augments that essentially do the same thing.

2. There was a viable, high-level build that benefited from having both of those Augments.

3. They just added a very similar effect to yet another ability in her rework.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is, "what is it with slowly making all of Ember's abilities converge towards, 'you add Heat damage to allies' attacks'?"

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2 minutes ago, cursedmoon13 said:

Sorry to take just one small part out of your very informative and well-written post, but I just seized upon the facts that:

1. Ember has two Augments that essentially do the same thing.

2. There was a viable, high-level build that benefited from having both of those Augments.

3. They just added a very similar effect to yet another ability in her rework.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is, "what is it with slowly making all of Ember's abilities converge towards, 'you add Heat damage to allies' attacks'?"

They've tried nothing and they're out of ideas on how to prevent Ember from AFKing, since the auto-penalty failed so miserably. They figured they'd just butcher her kit, ignore the negative feedback and let ember choke and die. Maybe they're also trying to hide her hideous deluxe skin on top of that.

Ember found a niche DE didn't like, so they dragged her to the chopping block. They care more about content economy than they do about the quality of the content they maintain or push out.

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Was never a heavy Ember user other than to clear lith fissures, so I refrain from judging her kit. Although it appears now 2 and 3 are meant to be comboed to increase team DPS.

As for Zephyr, Air Burst either gotta be better damage and CC, or become a 25 energy spammable to buff tornado. Right now, from my single use of it, you basically are paying 50 energy for a 25 energy fireball/freeze/shock level skill.

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50 minutes ago, D20 said:

Nothing to say about Zephyr's tail wind : the change is effective, welcomed and efficient. However, Air Burst is kind of underwhelming, same for Tornado changes. However, what's the point about charging the ability ?

Can we just have an augment instead. I hate the motion stopping aspects of her new tailwind.

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Will the devs be able to properly process all this feedback? Just thought it'd be a bit much to have a single Warframe Megathread considering the amount of frames that are affected.

Anyways I haven't done much testing but I wanted to give feedback about Zephyr's Tailwind. The changes are mostly bad and I'm not sure how this has happened. The charge up mechanic is clunky, leaves you vulnerable and is mostly pointless. Why is the hover implemented like this? Why not just give Zephyr infinite aim-glide and have aim-glide ignore gravity as an addition to her passive. This is both intuitive, easy to implement and allows the complete freedom of movement.

Now with the charge up removed, why not use the "hold button" control scheme to better control Tailwind's movement? Hold it to travel as long as you want and let go to deactivate flight. Would be even better if you could change direction mid-flight like a temporary pseudo-Archwing mode. If all this is too hard to implement, at the very least we need something like Hydroid's Tidal Surge+Undertow where it's possible to cancel out of the dash.

That's all for now. I'll probably have more in regards to Mag when I get around to testing her.

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