Zephyr's "rework" is a disaster. She gained nothing and has lost more than was promised. Please hear a Zephyr main out.

[Cryssoberyl]

So, here we are. After four years of complete neglect, a series of changes has been made to Zephyr. Please allow me to cover them one by one.

Skill #1, Tail Wind. The horizontal movement portion of this skill is as clunky as it ever was. You still cannot change direction, still cannot cancel it by rolling or jumping. It does travel faster and farther now for a given build, but that may or may not be desireable as you will find yourself cannoning into walls and obstacles and having to wait out the animation.

The hover portion of the skill is, frankly, completely useless. By charging for three seconds, an eternity in Warframe, you launch straight up and hover for ten seconds. You can charge less but you also get less height and less hover time. This is not affected by power stats. You cannot move during this hover and Tail Winding again does not maintain the hover when you are finished traveling. All this mode of the skill is good for is getting yourself killed while charging, stuck in ceilings when you do manage to launch, and the charge input makes using the other modes of the skill on demand more difficult.

The Dive Bomb portion of the skill will only activate when you are pointing the camera almost straight down. It is difficult to activate, but there is no reason to activate it, since Dive Bomb was bad and remains bad in this iteration.

Skill #2, Air Burst. This skill, the desperately needed new skill that was supposed to help give Zephyr new life, is nothing more or less than a slow, weak, difficult to aim projectile that has a small explosion on impact. That's it. There is, simply, no reason to ever use this skill at all, not even to "enlarge" Tornadoes (see below).

Skill #3, Turbulence. Zephyr's very lifeblood, her single useful ability up until now. At least it was left alone and unchanged, right? No, it wasn't. Turbulence has been nerfed by its unnecessary and unasked for "new unique animation", which is just a casting animation - a much longer casting animation than it had previously. A casting animation that will get you killed when you need to reactivate Turbulence, which you need to frequently and continuously do all the time, forever. Turbulence has been nerfed by this change, make no mistake.

But it gets worse, much worse. Jet Stream is now slower than it was for a given power strength. At 175% Power Strength, which is what I have long run, it is unambiguously slower than before. Jet Stream has been nerfed.

Skill #4, Tornado. First of all, the conceit that Tornadoes now do "a better job" at holding enemies is just that. Enemies still routinely fall out of them, the only difference is that they are not flung away like before. The "aiming" of Tornados is functionally useless. You usually cannot tell which tornado you are moving, and they move so slowly there is no use to it at all.

Finally... "shoot the tornadoes to damage enemies in them" is actually something I myself thought would be useful. I believed that it would open a new kind of offensive support role for Zephyr. But in practice, there are many issues with it. For one, as stated the tornadoes do not capture and hold enemies reliably or predictably. It makes far more sense to seek out and kill uncaptured enemies than to spend time shooting at tornadoes that may or may not have a worthwhile number of enemies trapped in them. Which tornado do you shoot? What exactly are you accomplishing by spending time doing this? It isn't clear to me myself, so I certainly cannot expect it to be clear to non-Zephyr teammates. Finally, "enlarging" the tornadoes by using Air Burst on them appears to have no noticeable effect on their horizontal pickup range.

So, that is Zephyr's rework. Four years of waiting for: a 1 that is still clunky, a 2 that is just another slow and non-scaling direct damage projectile, a 3 that is objectively worse than what we had before, and a 4 that I still cannot in good conscience force on my teammates as something that makes their and my gameplay better.

Whether there is any hope of anything different, I don't know. I never played Oberon much so I am not clear on just how much of heaven and earth Oberon players had to move to get DE to come out with something more worthwhile. All I know is that there are far fewer players invested in Zephyr than in "Broberon", so I am afraid for our chances.

With that in mind... non-Zephyr players, we need your help now. Please try her changes and see that what I am saying is the truth. The changes that have been made do not make her a good or competitive frame. They are a series of unambitious and awkward decisions, hamstrung by an overdevotion to thematic gimmicks, that do not give her a sound gameplan, and in fact, made her in some ways worse than she was before.

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Cryssoberyl

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

As another Zephyr main, and my boyfriend who is also a Zephyr Main - you’re wrong. Her changes are amazing, and make her much more fun to play. :)

[Vafthrudnir]

If you use her 4 augment you can charge the mininados to be as big as the normal ones and they get the uplifting abilities.

[Caelward]

1 minute ago, GrimMonsoon said:

As another Zephyr main, and my boyfriend who is also a Zephyr Main - you’re wrong. Her changes are amazing, and make her much more fun to play. :)

See here you run into the 'my opinion is the only truth' problem.

You opinion is YOUR opinion. While it may be true for you, that by no means means it has to be true for everyone.

Suggesting otherwise is an insult.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

1 minute ago, GrimMonsoon said:

As another Zephyr main, and my boyfriend who is also a Zephyr Main - you’re wrong. Her changes are amazing, and make her much more fun to play. :)

I don't know he gave a lot of evidence and you just left an opinion. Opinions are far more subjective than play tested evidence. If what he says is true; which I've seen similar statements from other players about Tornadoe, Air Burst, and Tailwind then I'd have to say she does sound worse. 

[yles9056]

As another Zephyr main, I'm not a fan of the changes. They don't change much. And the hovering ability simply suspend yourself up in the air. The only way to move around is to use Tail Wind, which you have no control over travel distance, making it hard to control.

Edited February 10, 2018 by yles9056

[Xrkr]

Zephyr main since her release, almost half of my nearly 3k hours over that period.

I agree with Cryssoberyl's review.

That said, it seems her kit is far more usable on the plains. Tailwind feels like something I'll use to save on AW charges and that's it.

The hover mechanic I don't think I'll be using, even on the plains. Too long of a charge, too short a duration, no mobility.

At this point, in a regular tileset, the only ability I will ever use (barring any future changes) is turbulence. Tailwind lost the ability to change directions with a mid-cast bulletjump, lost the ability to brake with crouch. Airburst does the exact opposite of what I'd want it to do: knocks away, instead of pulling together (really, divebomb vortex should have turned into an augment for this). Turbulence has a longer cast. Tornado can be recast, which is nice. Tornado is cast where I point, which is nice. Tornado still behaves the same way with enemies, which means I'll only ever use it to revive people or as an osht in mobile defence or excav or something.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Xrkr
Wrong name. I need to get some sleep. :/

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

This is so sad to read... No idea why they went with a gimmicky "hover mode" instead of just buffing her Aim Glide a lot, to make it longer and more... um... hover-y

Even more sad that there were TONS of decent ideas from community for the past like 3 years that kept true to her kit (ie, no massive revamping for each ability), while making her more viable.

I'm sad that I can't try the changes myself, but reading all the feedback is just so disappointing... :'(

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

Alright, let me explain why I believe this is wrong:

tailwind is now so much more controllable than what it used to be. I can zip around much more than I used to be able to. 

 

Air burst replaces the uselessness that was dive bomb, it does a large amount of damage, and does pretty good CC. 

 

I don’t use base tornadoes, as I run funnel clouds, and honestly? It’s now insane. Especially now that I can aim the thirty-two tornadoes. Plus, now they don’t do magnetic, and do physical damage instead, and can be statuses with weapons. 

[Infi_Reborn]

You only found her 1 to be clunky because you don't know how to use her. Zephyr is not the problem, it's the player using her. >:)

Again, same with 2, you don't know how to use it, it's intended use that is. Of course it's a "non-scaling damage projectile" because it ISN'T supposed to be used like that. Zephyr was not a damage dealing frame to begin with.

As for her 4, you don't need to force your teammates to make it better for you and for them. YOU DON'T. In fact, you don't need to use it at all.

In all honesty, I find her more interactive with her abilities.

Edited February 10, 2018 by InFiNiTe-Sensei

[Infi_Reborn]

15 minutes ago, yles9056 said:

The only way to move around is to use Tail Wind, which you have no control over travel distance, making it hard to control.

Yeah right... Zephyr is not the problem, it's the players using her.

[Caelward]

2 minutes ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Alright, let me explain why I believe this is wrong:

tailwind is now so much more controllable than what it used to be. I can zip around much more than I used to be able to. 

 

Air burst replaces the uselessness that was dive bomb, it does a large amount of damage, and does pretty good CC. 

 

I don’t use base tornadoes, as I run funnel clouds, and honestly? It’s now insane. Especially now that I can aim the thirty-two tornadoes. Plus, now they don’t do magnetic, and do physical damage instead, and can be statuses with weapons. 

I'm not upset that they changed her. I'm extremely annoyed with missed opportunities.

Why does she have to stop and crouch to charge up her 1? You could have her slow her movement down and it would be fine.

Why does she have to remain in one spot when hovering. Why can't she rolled out of it or move around at all?

Why have they not acknowledge LITERAL YEARS OF FEEDBACK in any of these changes?

[chofranc]

Here is the thread that i did summarizing the pros and cons of some of her abilities, the charging mechanic is pointless.

[Cryssoberyl]

I have played Zephyr for hundreds of hours in all content. Forgive me if I assume that I in fact do "know how to use her".

[yles9056]

3 minutes ago, InFiNiTe-Sensei said:

Yeah right... Zephyr is not the problem, it's the players using her.

Would like to see your MLG gameplay video.

[ObviousLee]

27 minutes ago, GrimMonsoon said:

As another Zephyr main, and my boyfriend who is also a Zephyr Main - you’re wrong. Her changes are amazing, and make her much more fun to play. :)

You understand that's not an actual argument, right?

 

Another Zephyr main. I've made my own review of the issues at hand and firmly believe we should all get together in some manner and provide unified input to really get DE's attention. Also +1 to OP

[Helleborr]

Banshee main here to voice support for you. Frankly, a lot of what OP says was apparent even on paper. Tail wind was clunky before, and was apparently going to get even clunkier with dive bomb being rolled into it. Plus, dive bomb's functionality was somehow untouched because its knockdown was useful? No? Why then? A flat damage projectile also sounded completely useless, unless again, you count knockdown as something immensely useful. Too bad turbulence and jet stream got changed, I have no idea why because those were fine, and the tornadoes still remain Kraken's $&*&*#(%& little brother, and when your frame has a skill that's more horrible than anything from SpongeBoboid's kit, yeah, that's when you panic. I frankly don't know who thought randomly wandering tornadoes was a good idea. Why can't it be just one giant tornado that stays where you cast it and responsively moves where it's ordered to? At least then you can use it strategically, if nothing else.

Anyway, I hope DE listens to your feedback. Zeph deserves to be more than just highly mobile showcase of Hagoromo skin. Cheers.

[yles9056]

6 minutes ago, InFiNiTe-Sensei said:

It doesn't matter at this point. Point is, players have a problem with using Zephyr,

At least give some description or explanation. Like how you use Zephyr, pros ans cons of her abilities, etc.

Without further detail, your opinion is as useful as t*ts on Vay Hek.

Edited February 10, 2018 by yles9056

[Infi_Reborn]

6 minutes ago, yles9056 said:

At least give some description or explanation. Like how you use Zephyr, pros ans cons of her abilities, etc.

Without further detail, your opinion is as useful as t*ts on Vay Hek.

I see each Warframe especially "bad" ones like Zephyr and Hydroid equally. I don't care about the pros and cons, as long as I find ways to use a warframe.

[Caelward]

Zephyr's problems have been explained ad nauseum on the forum. To the extent that new players would just get assaulted with information by all the veterans to the conversation.

We've had literal years of talk about all the ways in which Zephyr does and doesn't work and the ways she could be better.

I don't even know where to start with responding to another person new to the conversation.

[Xrkr]

I'm inclined to give them some time to digest this frame's (and other frames') feedback. I don't think she's unplayable; however, her skills, as they currently are (barring the recastable and aimable tornadoes), need another look. From the way other frames' reviews look, Zephyr is not alone in this. In the meantime, it's Cassowary Zephyr (or, dirt-bird) for me.

[Cryssoberyl]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/7widgr/zephyrs_rework_is_a_disaster_she_gained_nothing/

Mirrored post on Reddit for visibility, although it's already sinking, as I feared it would.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

2 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Considering the years of posts that us mains have put forth with adequate rework suggestions? Yea, I agree. I've never felt more ignored within the confines of this gaming community than I did upon this release.

I advocated for Nekros to have his SotD decay removed for a whole year. Because they said his SotD would have no duration based effects. They didn't even give us any warning at all. And as a matter of fact they dug a bigger hole when they tried to add "synergy" by having Oberon heal them. I'm still salty. It does make you question just how much they're actually listening to. I'm terridied. I've read nothing but disappointing feedback about Zephyr, Atlas, Volt, Chroma, and Ember. Based on how clunky this sounds I think I'd like to keep pre-patch Zephyr and not have the changes come to console at all. 

[Versa]

I find that the majority of the changes are horrid for zephyr. particularly her 1 and how it feels to use.

Tailwinds distance and momentum scaling are completely ineffective. If you build lower duration like 100-130%, then you neither go far at all, nor have momentum to keep going, so its actually worse now as you get shoehorned to the full duration build. With higher durations, you start going further and over 200%, you can actually get decent distance, but the momentum pins you to walls, and the animations are even more fixed so you cant end early with divebomb like before. The new takeoff is an absolute ABOMINATION. The old one would be instantaneous and give you a good height which you could maintain and control with aimglide and her passive float. Now you need a 3 second charge to get LESS height, and be completely fixed in place instead of actually hovering at a relatively constant height and being able to move along the ground plane by sliding and such. All in all, you get an ability that forces you into the already mainstay duration focused build and your ability to get instantaneous height and actually make use of her aimglide and passive is now GONE. Zephyr is no longer controllably mobile, and to be even just fast in a strait line, you have no choice but to build duration which will end up hurting your already poor base range of ALL her abilities.

Overall, they made zephyr less controlable, less mobile other than in just the case of being fast in strait line with a max duration build, lost most of the actual airtime control, took away the instant takeoff, and made the entirety of her 1 clunky and only even decent with high duration.

This is not a case of "git gud," its a case of you must use ONE kind of build and play ONE kind of way, long duration and useless in short hallways without getting pinned to walls. Zephyr is objectively worse on the typical halls of the majority of the star chart. She is made to go duration, but is punished by the extremely harsh momenum scaling and animation lock which will pin you to walls constantly, and the new takeoff is both incredibly slow and cannot be used to bounce over obstacles while still aiming at targets. 

ALL the changes made to tailwind need to be reverted as the old iteration actually had decent momentum and distance scaling. you could actually build for 100-130% duration and still move a decent distance, and at the same time you could also build for 200%+ duration and not get completely stuck to all walls by wonkey momentum that cant be canceled. Also the instant takeoff is just objectively better and allows more control and use of her passive than this new fixed "hover."

And these are nothing to say about the absolutely PITIFUL impact all the other changes to her have. The new 2 has basically no usability due to being absurdly slow and small base range. Turbulence got a change to the casting animation which makes it feel slower. Tornadoes I dare say are actually SLOWER to move around even when ADSing than they were when randomly moving to enemies. Overall this rework actually made zephyr WORSE for me and certainly less free in movement due to all the new charging, fixed animations and poor duration scaling on tailwind.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[ObviousLee]

Just for the sake of solidarity (i'll be copying OP's post and adding it to my thread as well with citation to OP as well) I'm posting the OP of my thread here for the actual zephyr mains with experience to mull over.

 

Tailwind: the merge of tailwind and divebomb is kinda nice honestly. However the charge mechanic has essentially no value as it's only a slight difference from her passive, with the exception that you're literally a sitting duck that requires turbulence being active (casting this during the hover cancels the hover). Step in the right direction, but not nearly enough.

The charge mechanic, is utterly useless. You're open to being attacked to essentially have a slightly better passive that doesn't allow for any lateral movement. Not trying to be mean or rude or disrespectful, but this is just bad..

Air burst: kinda ok cc, but not nearly enough damage to warrant having any at all. The synergy between the excessively clunky tornado is kind of ok, but could be immensely improved upon.

Turbulence: I adore the cast animation change, so damned good job on that.

Tornado: Able to be recast which is nice, but it's still an immensely undesirable ability. Enemies kinda "jesus float" around and don't stay in the tornado long enough for any damage application to be useful. Even worsei is now I have to babysit the ultimate? To be able to actually get justifiable use I have to constantly maintain keeping my ultimate between my enemies and my frame which kinda looks like this.

 

Zephyr--------tornadoes----------enemies.

 

Air burst making tornadoes larger is a decent synergy, but still useless in the face of ultimate being something I now need to babysit.

This rework is not only lackluster, but it's clunky and redundant in ways that still do not address or remedy her issues in the slightest.

You didn't fix her, you made her worse. Please DE, there are a plethora of EXPERIENCED zephyr players who have offered immense feedback and rework suggestions that actually remedy the issues she has, myself included. Please, please listen to us. Because as is? She's STILL a sub-par Titania.

 

Edit: Suggestion to remedy the situation; Make tailwind a flight mode with a low drain as to give genuine validation to the charge mechanic. Allow for standard tailwind use, but charge up for a flight mode that will tie in with the augment.

Make the Tornado a single LARGE tornado that doesn't track your curser for direction, meaning it stays in one place and increase both the size and draw range. Also please have the tornado retain the enemies within the confines of the tornado for its duration.

Make air burst into a carpet AoE that stays after cast (base it on duration if you want) and make it stagger/debuff enemies. Still allow this ability to augment the size of the tornado if cast where the tornado is.

Turbulence really needs no change so dun touch it :)