Regarding The Idea Of "grindframe"

[notlamprey]

More than once now, I've seen threads complaining about the RNG system this game uses.

 

They have some valid points.

 

For me, there's something more important here than the simple question of whether RNG puts us in a Skinner Box.

 

I'm interested in perception.

 

___________

 

 

Dearest lovely people at DE:

 

     Every single member of this community is a human being. Human beings have brains, and these brains handle gaps in knowledge by making educated guesses about our world. This helps keep us from becoming gibbering maniacs, and lets us focus on good stuff like civil rights and bacon.

 

     The obvious downside is that our brain-guesses can also be wrong and, more importantly, destructive. That brings me to the issue of how myself and many others are starting to perceive your beautiful little game's RNG reward system.

 

     Many of your players and founders are expected to hold jobs, keep grades up, and generally contribute to propping up hungry economies. The expectations placed on us take up a lot of our limited time and energy. On average, I tend to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 hours per night that are mine to spend as I please. My number may be bigger or smaller than someone else's number, but it feels like a useful starting point.

 

     My main point will probably be best illustrated by the case of the 5 most recent "Prime" weapons released as rewards available only through new Void mission types. When these new Void key types entered your Defense Reward loot tables, they were assigned single-digit drop rates. That wasn't a bad move on its own, but those drop tables were already pretty busy. As an alternative, players can buy Void Key Packs that may also contain one of the new Void mission keys. These packs cost 75Pt, or about the same as a fast food soft drink. Again, not a bad thing on its own.

 

     We're not done, though. Once you do obtain one of these new Void mission keys, it can have a I, II or III difficulty rating. I have completed at least one of almost every new key on my own, but most players can't do this. They would need to find a group to attempt these missions with. This takes time, and your group might not even complete the mission. On the plus side, it means that (ideally) four players can roll the loot dice for every key found. For me, the most important thing to take away is that you can only roll the loot dice in missions you can complete.

 

     If that deal wasn't sweet enough, we've got more. Some of the math I've seen puts your chances of receiving your desired Prime Weapon Component or Blueprint at about 7% for any given mission. This assumes that each reward has the same chance of dropping from every mission. Player feedback seems to indicate that this isn't so; many players have described reward distributions that would seem to indicate a serious problem with your "RNG."

 

     All of which brings me back to my previous description of your current endgame as a Zynga-esque Skinner Box. I will acknowledge that my observation is not the same as your intent, but you are not doing enough to fill in the gaps. You have the power to fix this. Describe the problems of developing a game on the Free-to-play model. Tell us what sucks about it, and the unique challenges you face. My brain wants to guess that you aren't telling us because you fear taking a revenue hit. Do not fall into this trap.

 

     I am not okay with feeling pushed to spend more money on enjoying a "free to play" title than I would spend on a AAA product. Notice that I said "feeling pushed." I understand that this game is giving me an exceptional value for money, but that does not matter to my guessing brain that hates opaque business practices.

 

 

TL;DR Nuggets are in bold for your reading convenience.

 

Full-on TL;DR is as follows:  

 

     I like this game and I want to like the people who are making it. However, your current loot system does not effectively translate effort into reward. It contains what I consider to be a number of small errors in judgement that have added up to create a big problem. To make matters worse, you aren't communicating effectively. I understand that this industry is harsh. Explain how that affects your decisions. I will understand your explanations. Do not be afraid of risking a revenue hit to keep the lines of communication open. If you shy from opening the lines here, your game will suffer a great loss of potential. I will be sad, and you will be sad too. Please don't make us all sad.

 

 

Edit: If this post is not in the appropriate area, moderators should feel free to move it for anyone's benefit. Thanks in advance.

Edited August 7, 2013 by notlamprey

[Firetempest]

Buy plat, get things in a reasonable time frame.

[Trollin4ThePrimes]

Its a MMO grind is the base around it that's how they make money...

I think its one of the least grindy MMOs though.

Edited August 7, 2013 by dadgoat

[Hayden11121]

Its a MMO grind is the base around it that's how they make money...

I think its one of the least grindy MMOs though.

They must have brainwashed you then good sir.

 

Even DCUO isn't as overpriced as DE can be. Whoo hoo! 800 plat on 3 weapons! almost 400 plat on 1 frame!

[notlamprey]

Buy plat, get things in a reasonable time frame.

 

The problem many people are having is that even buying Platinum will only let you skip phase 1 of the RNG pain. You still need to get a New Mission Type Key, complete it, and roll the dice one more time.

 

If DE wants these Prime Weapons to be the very end of Stuff We Can Get, then all the rigamarole it takes to get them doesn't seem so bad. However, I haven't heard any word on this subject. That's why I mentioned the importance of communication.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Even WoW at its height of horrible grindy (vanilla that is to say since BC and Wrath made it significantly more accessible and later expansions even more so) only had its most "hardcore" content locked away to people who had lives to live. DE has managed to make a game that is more grindy than even the vast majority of JRPGs out there.

[Hazmatzone]

Their market is pretty much based around time vs money. If you're too busy making money and don't have enough time to play you can buy materials,mods,warframes,weapons while people who have none to little income can just spend their time. It's possible that one can have neither of those but most people fit into one of those categories. Things like the void weapons are there to give people something to do when they have spare time, and are usually meant as an end game thing.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Hazmatzone

[HomeyCDawg]

Regarding DE being open about their doings...

 

Being honest seems to be a hard thing for developers/publishers to do because long ago, at some point, for some reason, the entire video game industry decided that every single thing they do is a "trade secret". Now it's just common place for every dev/pub to be super secretive about everything. DE being open and honest about everything that they should be is like trying to be rational when you were raised as a fundamentalist. They actually do a fairly decent job at transparency than most companies in the industry.

Edited August 7, 2013 by HomeyCDawg

[alchemistjkt]

someone has just watched an "extra credits" video.

jokes and what not aside.

rng is something that needs to be done away with for the most part. we have all been burned by this system, and adding more things to it will only make it more painful. as such, they said in a live stream or two that they are working on loot tables and perhaps a new system involving tokens of some form. at this point, we just need to wait till they do something with the current system (revised loot, new system or so on...) and critique that when it comes out.

side note: thank you op for the bold tl;dr parts, i wish more people would do that.

[Jugganatha]

3 weeks looking for Banshee parts (that came about two months later Q_Q).

 

3 days for Frost (another 2 for the resources to craft it).

 

1 day for Saryn (and another for resources).

 

Setup: Loki rank 30. Paris rank 30. Boltor rank 14. Lex rank 22. Amphis rank 30 (overcharged because melee).

Pretty much describes the first month of this game for me. It takes a special kind of person to find that fun.

[MonsterPig]

Even though I have all the Prime weapons... It was not fun at all to obtain them. It discouraged my attitude towards the game. It drained me. The RNG can really ruin the fun factor or potential of this game. I agree with the OP. Don't make us sad.

You can spend 100 hours in the void and not get what you were looking for. This happens to people. Their progress after 100 hours can be equally the same as what it was when they were at 20 hours in the new voids. That would make anyone very upset.

[notlamprey]

Its a MMO grind is the base around it that's how they make money...

 

     It's certainly true that they can make money by forcing us to grind. What I want to know is whether they honestly intend to make us grind. It will help a lot of people make better decisions about how much Platinum they buy, and when they buy it.

 

     On the flip side of that, more of us will be able to better assess whether we really want to continue playing a game that is built this way.

 

     Look at it this way: you might say that DE can only expect me to spend money on this game if I'm actively playing it. There, I'd agree with you. If their intent is to hide the last little bit of content behind a big timewall in order to keep me playing (and therefore, hopefully, paying), then they should be brave and tell us.

 

     They've made unpopular decisions before. If their honest answer is "Yes; sorry, but we couldn't find a better solution than RNG and timewall," I will still play their game if it's fun and the community is there.

 

     To put things in perspective, I've passed up 20% platinum discounts before. I know bigger coupons are out there, and I've got my entry-level founder pack. From here on in, I really want to spend the least possible amount of money on this game. There are many more players like me, and still more who haven't even bought a founder pack.

 

     I'm going to assume that DE is keeping track of how their community investment breaks down, and knows that "escaping the grind" is not the most common reason players buy Platinum.

Edited August 7, 2013 by notlamprey

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Its a MMO grind is the base around it that's how they make money...

Generally MMOs make money by keeping people playing. Most complaints I see in regards to the RNG and the farming in this game are "this is boring I don't want to play anymore".

Also Warframe isn't actually an MMO, it fails to fulfill the MM part of the title.

[notlamprey]

someone has just watched an "extra credits" video.

 

     I actually really like Extra Credits; I feel like it's a reliable resource for making sure my comments are somewhat educated :P

 

     Mostly, I wasn't sure if the RNG debate had been tackled from the "Let's be brave and talk about it" angle before. Mostly, I want DE to know that I respect their investment in this game. I've made myself informed about the years and work these people have put in, and I'd bet they have already been pressured to make some painful and unpleasant compromises. There may be the threat of compromises down the road as well, and they know this too.

 

     I feel like we have a good shot here when it comes to getting some quality talkwork done on an important issue. I want the folks at DE to be aware that some of us understand, and many more of us may not understand - but we want to. I guess my reason for making this thread is respecting this sweet game, and wanting to see good things happen. If we can pitch in to help these guys get the satisfaction that all their hard work deserves, I think we'd all win.

[Firetempest]

We can say it over and over again. Yet they have the statistics. They know how much a average person plays, they know how many times a person will re-run a boss to get parts. They know how many keys people buy or farm.

The forums are a small fraction of the community and people don't always act the same way as their demands.

http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win is a interesting talk on the reactions of players, specially the vocal minority and the actions of the player base as a whole.

[Lumireaver]

I have just one question, after reading all that... how the hell do you indent?

 

Yeah, I'm going to be totally honest, I love Warframe, and my love of Warframe has led me to conclude that the drop rates suck because they're not a high priority next to pumping out content. If the team could come out and say that, at the very least, it would be nice.

[nemarsde]

I only play about 2 hours a day, maybe 4 days a week. Something like that.

 

I know it's got a "warfarm" nickname, but so far I haven't found it too gruelling. I play a few missions every day, working towards my goal of unlocking all missions. When I wanted Rhino, I started to do one Jackal run at the start of each session. No idea how long it took, but eventually the blueprints were all there in my Foundry.

 

So far I haven't felt short of weapons or warframes. Excalibur is still my favourite warframe and I got that on sign up. I have a Strun and a Dread, neither of which required any farming at all.

 

I think if you rush to cram everything in, you're obviously going to reach the limit of your endurance sooner.

[notlamprey]

I have just one question, after reading all that... how the hell do you indent?

 

Yeah, I'm going to be totally honest, I love Warframe, and my love of Warframe has led me to conclude that the drop rates suck because they're not a high priority next to pumping out content. If the team could come out and say that, at the very least, it would be nice.

 

Good old-fashioned spacebar. It was practically a book; the least I can do is try to make it easier to read.

 

The priorities thing is a good point, but like you said, simply telling us would be appreciated.

[Cinderain]

Also Warframe isn't actually an MMO, it fails to fulfill the MM part of the title.

 

People need to stop thinking that MMO and MMORPG are synonymous.

 

There are thousands of people logged in to the game, all playing at once, with social hubs and a world chat. Warframe isn't an MMORPG (though it has it's RPG aspects), but it is an MMO.

 

someone has just watched an "extra credits" video.

 

     I actually really like Extra Credits; I feel like it's a reliable resource for making sure my comments are somewhat educated :P

 

Extra Credits is great.

 

- Extra Credits on microtransactions.

 

- Extra Credits on MMOs.

 

I think these are two that people should really watch.

Edited August 8, 2013 by FatalX7

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

People need to stop thinking that MMO and MMORPG are synonymous.

 

There are thousands of people logged in to the game, all playing at once, with social hubs and a world chat. Warframe isn't an MMORPG (though it has it's RPG aspects), but it is an MMO.

It's not, there are never massive amounts of people playing at once in the same area. Which is the hallmark of an MMO. Most things gamers like to call "MMOs" aren't actually MMOs by definition because of this. Being able to play in groups of 4 keeps it from being an MMOTPS. There is no massive multiplayer going on. Having region chat as a half-assed chatroom does not make it a massive multiplayer game. It's just an Online Co-Operative Third Person Shooter.

[Cinderain]

You're still treating MMO and MMORPG as the same thing. An MMORPG has massive amounts of people playing at once in one big world. An MMO of another genre does not need that.

 

I suggest you watch that Extra Credits video. And what you need to understand is that things evolve.

Edited August 8, 2013 by FatalX7

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

You're still treating MMO and MMORPG as the same thing. An MMORPG has massive amounts of people playing at once in one big world. An MMO of another genre does not need that.

 

I suggest you watch that Extra Credits video.

No, an MMORPG is an RPG that's online. The specific genre doesn't matter and extra credits don't know what the F*** they're talking about. The very definition of an "MMO" is that it has massive amounts of multiplayer going on in an online situation. Warframe does not. If the player cap was raised and we could get in groups of more than four then maybe, but as it is, it does not.

[Cinderain]

Warframe does not.

 

Thousands of players connected to the game at one time, all playing at the same time, is not massive? You may play in a room with 4 people at a time (even MMORPGS have instances with limited groups), but you can still play with thousands of different people.

 

Dark Souls is an RPG that's online. Is it an MMORPG? Dragon's Dogma is, too. Is it also an MMORPG? I think you need to work on your definitions if you're going to try and correct me.

Edited August 8, 2013 by FatalX7

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Thousands of players connected to the game at one time, all playing at the same time, is not massive? You may play in a room with 4 people at a time (even MMORPGS have instances with limited groups), but you can still play with thousands of different people.

Nope. You can chat with people but that's all. Chatting is not gameplay (At least until sega decides to make my long awaited typing of the dead MMO...). There is nothing MMO~ about warframe. There is simply the M and the O. Multiplayer and Online.

[Cinderain]

Nope. You can chat with people but that's all. Chatting is not gameplay (At least until sega decides to make my long awaited typing of the dead MMO...). There is nothing MMO~ about warframe. There is simply the M and the O. Multiplayer and Online.

 

You seem to be under the impression that the 3 other people you play in a room are the only other players that exist on the game's server, or that you simply never play with any other person. Ever. Which is a weird, lonely conclusion to come to.

 

And you also seem to have forgotten that this game has smaller social hubs in the form of Dojos.