Why Chroma will never be tanky again: (UPDATED TO CONTAIN THE BEST BALANCING IDEAS IN THE FIRST POST)

[DeadlyCreation]

Gerade eben schrieb Dragazer:

Except no, how many frames in the game that ppl regularly play could actually take advantage of the armor buff?

Remember it works by multiplying armor. Its going to do jackS#&$ with low armor.

exactly. most other frames dont even use steel fiber. so the effect would be way less on them anyway.

[xmegarockx]

chroma energy usage is abysmal it cant work like that anymore, number 2 and 3 need more duration and changes to make it work more like rhino roar and the old armor calculation is needed to be back.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb xmegarockx:

chroma energy usage is abysmal it cant work like that anymore, number 2 and 3 need more duration and changes to make it work more like rhino roar and the old armor calculation is needed to be back.

not really. i recasted chromas abilities allways as soon as they ran out anyway. so i dont see the problem. and running streamline (which i dont) would easily help you out. that would reduce the costs for his 2+3 from 210 energy/cast to around 160energy/cast.

but i can see the point under another perspective. why spending so much energy for ability that is now useless? before the nerf it actually did something

[Baklavah]

Honestly, the changes to Chroma make sense due to the old code his setup was using. He was FAR too strong and tanky. This has normalized him and people just need to accept it and work with it. It's REALLY not that big a deal.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Baklavah:

Honestly, the changes to Chroma make sense due to the old code his setup was using. He was FAR too strong and tanky. This has normalized him and people just need to accept it and work with it. It's REALLY not that big a deal.

i 100% disagree! the old formula wasnt overpowered. the reason it was so strong was an exploit with elemtal combos on weapons. (which is literally on almost any weapon -> so it feels like the normal formula is broken) 

but DE could just have fixed the exploit and everything would have been fine. 

EG. using one elemental combo on a weapon turned a simple 8x multiplier (800% fury buff) into a 64x multiplier 8x8x. as i said. this effected almost every weapon since most players tend to have one elemental combo on the weapon.

so as you can see the removing this exploit would have fixed the whole problem!

 

but instead of fixing something DE decided to remove it from game by simply changing the formula so elemental combos are not effected anymore. 

doesnt that sound familier *raids* 

[cursedmoon13]

Chroma was already dead, and was replaced by an exploit masquerading as a warframe long ago. It was (for many) a fun exploit, and didn't break anything the devs cared too much about. Then the Teralyst came along, and because of the farming of it that was necessary, and the optimization urge that killed the REAL Chroma kicked in, and the exploit became a problem in the eyes of the devs, so they killed even the exploit animating Chroma's corpse. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you need to look, and I mean really look, at the entirety of Chroma's kit. Maybe then you'll realize that a vast majority of "Chroma mains" have been using only about 25% of what Chroma was supposed to be, because of an unintended interaction, and everything else being fairly lackluster by comparison. Basically, no one involved is blameless in what has happened to Chroma.

Edit: actually, the other 75% is lack luster, not just by comparison to the exploit, but by comparison to just about everything else. Chroma needs some work, and not just "give back the armor buff".

Edited February 11, 2018 by cursedmoon13

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb cursedmoon13:

Chroma was already dead, and was replaced by an exploit masquerading as a warframe long ago. It was (for many) a fun exploit, and didn't break anything the devs cared too much about. Then the Teralyst came along, and because of the farming of it that was necessary, and the optimization urge that killed the REAL Chroma kicked in, and the exploit became a problem in the eyes of the devs, so they killed even the exploit animating Chroma's corpse. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you need to look, and I mean really look, at the entirety of Chroma's kit. Maybe then you'll realize that a vast majority of "Chroma mains" have been using only about 25% of what Chroma was supposed to be, because of an unintended interaction, and everything else being fairly lackluster by comparison. Basically, no one involved is blameless in what has happened to Chroma.

Edit: actually, the other 75% is lack luster, not just by comparison to the exploit, but by comparison to just about everything else. Chroma needs some work, and not just "give back the armor buff".

yeah but but we are not only talking about dmg. sure the dmg would be way less then before but he also lost all his tankyness. thats the problem

[cursedmoon13]

1 minute ago, DeadlyCreation said:

yeah but but we are not only talking about dmg. sure the dmg would be way less then before but he also lost all his tankyness. thats the problem

I'm not just talking about damage either. I think both damage and tankyness were unintended consequences of awkward coding. I hear a lot of people complaining that Chroma has "lost his niche" when that niche was only created because approximately four of what could be considered sixteen abilities for Chroma were much better than everything else. I see Chroma's full kit as having been intended to give him the versatility to fill many roles, but so many possibilities were discarded because they were (they really were, and really are) mediocre. I find it sad.

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, DeadlyCreation said:

What do you think: should Chromas Vex Armor only share the DMG buff? should a small percentage of the armor buff be shared with teammates (so chroma stays the main tank)? would you remove the whole aura thing all at once?

Personally I think Chroma should benefit from the Oberon treatment a little; swap the percentage armour increase for a number based, so it would have a base value and then scale up with strength and mods. (For reference, Armour is on a curve, you get diminishing returns for your input. The difference in damage reduction between Chroma getting a 400% armour bonus and 500% armour bonus is a matter of about 1.5% extra reduction, so it's really much of a muchness. Even if you get to the broken value of 1222% that was the previous max-strength with Energy Conversion and ally buffs, that was only an extra 4% damage reduction over 500% armour.)

Oberon can easily add 450 armour to allies with Iron Renewal, which is pretty damn incredible on any frame that has low armour to start with, it puts more damage reduction onto a Banshee than a base Chroma and Atlas (base of those two have 350 and 450 armour respectively, Banshee would include her base 15 so be sitting at 465). And this is huge on even the most tanky frames, putting a Valkyr up to over 1000 before mods and so on.

If Chroma's bonus became numbers based instead of percentage, then not only would it be more effective overall for calculations and multipliers, it would make it able to be shared with allies.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb cursedmoon13:

Chroma was already dead, and was replaced by an exploit masquerading as a warframe long ago. It was (for many) a fun exploit, and didn't break anything the devs cared too much about. Then the Teralyst came along, and because of the farming of it that was necessary, and the optimization urge that killed the REAL Chroma kicked in, and the exploit became a problem in the eyes of the devs, so they killed even the exploit animating Chroma's corpse. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you need to look, and I mean really look, at the entirety of Chroma's kit. Maybe then you'll realize that a vast majority of "Chroma mains" have been using only about 25% of what Chroma was supposed to be, because of an unintended interaction, and everything else being fairly lackluster by comparison. Basically, no one involved is blameless in what has happened to Chroma.

Edit: actually, the other 75% is lack luster, not just by comparison to the exploit, but by comparison to just about everything else. Chroma needs some work, and not just "give back the armor buff".

 yeah thats true. but its like nerfing slash to be on par with impact and puncture. instead of making other thinks better they nerf the good thing to death. now chroma has nothing.

and i disagree with the point of sixteen abilities. chromas vex armor stays the same for each element. the only difference why ice was so good is that it increased the armor which as than multiplied by scorn. but instead of nerfing his vex armor they should have change the other elements. make them more viable. i mean electric has some great dmg potential but its random which enemy is attacked and the range is really bad. poison is just stupid and fire is basically outplayed by other frames.

still you are saying that the exploit broke chroma and this change was needed. totally not. they could have just fixed the exploit. chroma would have stayed the dragon tank he is and the dmg would have been normalized. now his dmg is just being none existent. and yes getting rid of that dmg exploit was important. but why hurt the tankyness? if chroma would have stayed as tanky has he was most people would have been fine. there was just no reason to nerf scorn. on top of that: DE never said they nerf scorn. they allways talked about fury and that they change that. as a result the community feeled kinda betrayed

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I would strongly advise not to throw shade at rhino or any other frame at all because instead of buffing Chroma to be better or on par, they are much much more likely to nerf them down.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb OoKeNnEtHoO:

I would strongly advise not to throw shade at rhino or any other frame at all because instead of buffing Chroma to be better or on par, they are much much more likely to nerf them down.

i dont even get why DE is nerfing. just give us survival starting at level 150. it makes sense for some frames to be stronger than other because they are aquired later and harder in game. thats game progression. if you find weaker stuff late in game.. why even going so far? i mean u got the best frame from the beginning or what? just keep chroma as a tanky dmg dealer. he is one of the hardest frames to build ffs

Edited February 11, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

4 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

 just give us survival starting at level 150. 

Just some good news.

Dark Sector seems to be being reworked into that but it will be more like sortie survival with modifiers but endless.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb OoKeNnEtHoO:

Just some good news.

Dark Sector seems to be being reworked into that but it will be more like sortie survival with modifiers but endless.

no in the devstream they said that dark sector will have a 20min timer and the goal is to clear as many stages as possible in 20min. and yes its supposed to be hard. but thats not the topic of this discussion. :D

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb cursedmoon13:

Chroma was already dead, and was replaced by an exploit masquerading as a warframe long ago. It was (for many) a fun exploit, and didn't break anything the devs cared too much about. Then the Teralyst came along, and because of the farming of it that was necessary, and the optimization urge that killed the REAL Chroma kicked in, and the exploit became a problem in the eyes of the devs, so they killed even the exploit animating Chroma's corpse. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you need to look, and I mean really look, at the entirety of Chroma's kit. Maybe then you'll realize that a vast majority of "Chroma mains" have been using only about 25% of what Chroma was supposed to be, because of an unintended interaction, and everything else being fairly lackluster by comparison. Basically, no one involved is blameless in what has happened to Chroma.

Edit: actually, the other 75% is lack luster, not just by comparison to the exploit, but by comparison to just about everything else. Chroma needs some work, and not just "give back the armor buff".

and btw this is my idea to make other elements more usefull

my idea for his 1 and 4:

spectral scream should gain additional effects.

fire: killed enemies heal everone nearby(staying with the fire healer from his 2)

electric: similar to volt, enemies act like an accelerator and shock nearby enemies. killing them will create a small electric aoe wave that hits new enemies. also hit enemies could be stunned - some cc for chroma.

poison: 

shooting spectral scream at the ground (with allways allready kinda happens when u activate it) will leave a toxic trace of poison that slows down enemies the longer thay walk on it and obviously poisons them.

ice:

similar to poison, shooting at the ground creates an ice floor on which enemies stumble. shooting on one point for a longer period would create an ice wall.(this wall needs to be pretty brought or it wont be usefull but i can see how it might be used in several situation, eg. closing down multiple paths for the enemy to walk through)

 

Effigy:

instead if making chromas 3 a aura effigy should be the buffing ability.

similar the garas shattered glass - you can cast effigy on a teammate and give him all the buffs that chroma has. (and i am thinking about the old vex armor buffs so it is actually doing something. also effigy should create an aura that buffs teammates with effects similar to elemtal war (like healing close by, giving armor, giving shields or slowing enemies down, depending on the element chroma has.)

also effigy could still remain the low level defending thing it is now when castet not on a teammate. i mean why not.

 

elemental ward:

overall buff other elements on his elemental ward than ice. maybe:

electric could give a energy drain immunity. so the eximus wont eat all your energy. would make it a viable end game option

poison could have a corrosive projection effect on nearby enemies

heat could just be a constant healing aura for nearby teammates

 

short about Vex Armor:

i think Vex Armor should go back to its oroginal as soon as the double and tripple dipping is resolved. that exploit is literally the only reason chromas dmg was so insanely high. just fix that and the old formula should be that overpowered anymore

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Arcane Guardian now gives 600 additive Armor.

[Azamagon]

You know what could work for him?

1) Give him, say, 70% (unmoddable) damage reduction on Vex Armor, but ONLY for Chroma. That means it still serves its job to make him tankier, while he can still be a decent buffer with the ability too.

2) Give Spectral Scream lifesteal on its damage done. Now he definitely could have a reason to use it, without relying on specific gear to keep him alive (like Life Strike and such).

3) Whenever Chroma has Vex Armor and Elemental Wards up, Effigy ought to get the same buffs and auras as Chroma does (meaning, it both benefits from them as well AND provides the auras for allies who remain near the Effigy).

Edited February 11, 2018 by Azamagon

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Azamagon:

You know what could work for him?

1) Give him, say, 70% (unmoddable) damage reduction on Vex Armor, but ONLY for Chroma. That means it still serves its job to make him tankier, while he can still be a decent buffer with the ability too.

2) Give Spectral Scream lifesteal on its damage done. Now he definitely could have a reason to use it, without relying on specific gear to keep him alive (like Life Strike and such).

3) Whenever Chroma has Vex Armor and Elemental Wards up, Effigy ought to get the same buffs and auras as Chroma does (meaning, it both benefits from them as well AND provides the auras for allies who remain near the Effigy).

i think effegy should be like :

instead if making chromas 3 a aura effigy should be the buffing ability.

similar the garas shattered glass - you can cast effigy on a teammate and give him all the buffs that chroma has. (and i am thinking about the old vex armor buffs so it is actually doing something. also effigy should create an aura that buffs teammates with effects similar to elemtal war (like healing close by, giving armor, giving shields or slowing enemies down, depending on the element chroma has.)

also effigy could still remain the low level defending thing it is now when castet not on a teammate. i mean why not.

 

and 70% is not alot. or do you mena that on top of that the armor stacks?

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[Azamagon]

11 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

and 70% is not alot. or do you mena that on top of that the armor stacks?

 

On top of the armor, yes.

So, he gets 70% DR for himself. Then he also has the current Fury+Scorn effects, which are provided to himself and nearby allies.

[Walkampf]

Just my 2 cents, but if you play any Warframe in the sense of a classic tank, meaning just standing there, take hits to the face,

then you have simply not understood what the games gameplay is about.

Every Warframe is supposed to move around. If you want to stand in the middle of a room and get smacked from every possible angle without flinching, then you are playing the wrong game. Even Rhinos Ironskin helps little if you tank any hit with your face.

With my current build i'm sitting at a 507% armor buff. So basically 350*5=1750 armor

350 base armor + 350 from steelfiber + 1750 from vex armor =2450 armor.

According to http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor means we ar looking at ~90% damage reduction.

If you still think Chroma is not tanky, then you are just an idiot. And i don't mean that as an insult, but a statement. You are literally not capable of thinking those numbers through...

It's basically exacly at the 90% damage reduction which pure damage reduction abilities are capped at. What a coinkidik.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Walkampf

[KIREEK]

My sugestion is simple, since DE follows the rule "more broad = less powerfull", just nerf the range the ability has and increase it's power. Make it a 1 Meter range ability and boost the power acordingly, better yet, remove the range mechanic altoghether and just place him on the old value.

I still think he is pretty tanky, but you need alot of things to be on at the same to achieve that and while sorties might be fair as soon you step over that (over lvl 100 enemies) he becomes a bit squishy. I mean you can still survive but you need to be on your toes, you need some sort of CC (from melee slams or status effects) in order to avoid taking so much damage.

I also like doing some solo content in the future, so the range is kind of odd, if i want more damage for the team i'll bring something else, chroma had something unique with his 2 abilities and now he feels out of place for solo content.

Note for those new to warframe:

When an ability affects more things, like your teammates, ability damage or even ability strenght, the less powerfull it must be, chroma was unique because it buffed only himself and only the weapons, so the damage was high and the extra armor was also high, DE wanted the thing nerfed so they applied the Range factor, which no one asked for.

[Marcel_2200]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb Trichouette:

I think it's fine.

He didn't lose THAT MUCH tankyness and people are making a mess about not such a big issue.

Chroma was overkill, you didn't need to be that tanky in order to do anything.

 

Didn't lose that much? He lost A LOT. I have 8 Forma in my Chroma and the change is significant. I dont mind the damage nerv but at least give Chroma his old survivability back..

 

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Walkampf:

Just my 2 cents, but if you play any Warframe in the sense of a classic tank, meaning just standing there, take hits to the face,

then you have simply not understood what the games gameplay is about.

Every Warframe is supposed to move around. If you want to stand in the middle of a room and get smacked from every possible angle without flinching, then you are playing the wrong game. Even Rhinos Ironskin helps little if you tank any hit with your face.

With my current build i'm sitting at a 507% armor buff. So basically 350*5=1750 armor

350 base armor + 350 from steelfiber + 1750 from vex armor =2450 armor.

According to http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor means we ar looking at ~90% damage reduction.

If you still think Chroma is not tanky, then you are just an idiot. And i don't mean that as an insult, but a statement. You are literally not capable of thinking those numbers through...

It's basically exacly at the 90% damage reduction which pure damage reduction abilities are capped at. What a coinkidik.

90% reduction is nothibg if you are facing level 150 or higher. then oneshot you. 

something that chroma was able to do before the patch and was the only one able to. and since chroma us hard to aquire it was only logical that he can tank something

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Marcel_2200:

Didn't lose that much? He lost A LOT. I have 8 Forma in my Chroma and the change is significant. I dont mind the damage nerv but at least give Chroma his old survivability back..

 

yeah especially since DE never spoke about nerfing scorn. it came outa nowhere. my problem ist that, instead of fixing the exploit with the elemental combo they just change the formula to ignore mods. that feels like a super lazy way to solve a problem. it the same treatment that the raids are getting. just remove the whole problem instead of fixing it.

[Dragazer]

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Just my 2 cents, but if you play any Warframe in the sense of a classic tank, meaning just standing there, take hits to the face,

then you have simply not understood what the games gameplay is about.

*Clearly has never played Wukong

 

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Every Warframe is supposed to move around. If you want to stand in the middle of a room and get smacked from every possible angle without flinching, then you are playing the wrong game. Even Rhinos Ironskin helps little if you tank any hit with your face.

With my current build i'm sitting at a 507% armor buff. So basically 350*5=1750 armor

350 base armor + 350 from steelfiber + 1750 from vex armor =2450 armor.

According to http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor means we ar looking at ~90% damage reduction.

If you still think Chroma is not tanky, then you are just an idiot. And i don't mean that as an insult, but a statement. You are literally not capable of thinking those numbers through...

It's basically exacly at the 90% damage reduction which pure damage reduction abilities are capped at. What a coinkidik.

You see here is the problem, Rhino Iron skin may not be tankier than vex armor in some situations and builds, but he literally has one of the best cc abilties in this game. Stomp can instantly freeze the entire room in place for 8 seconds and can be spammed recastable.

Chroma has absolutely no cc at all., the prenerf armor was crucial for survival when you literally have no other ways to avoid dmg with abilties 

BTW that DR for Chroma comes from armor specifically ferrite armor. What does that mean? well it means it gets affected by the modifier for dmg types.

That 90% DR gets halved against puncture, reduced to a quarter against corrosive, reduced to 75% against toxin, and RIP if you get hit by armor ignoring slash procs 

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

It's basically exacly at the 90% damage reduction which pure damage reduction abilities are capped at. What a coinkidik.

Oh and Mirage Eclipse and Mesa Shattershield cap out at 95% DR so yeah...

Edited February 11, 2018 by Dragazer