Why Chroma will never be tanky again: (UPDATED TO CONTAIN THE BEST BALANCING IDEAS IN THE FIRST POST)

[LuckyCharm]

Just gonna throw this out there... theres now a couple of ways to get flat armor buffs which will do a whole lot to help mitigate the changes nerf assuming it was that much of a nerf. Arcane guardian and ultimatum give a massive amount or flat armor, and unairus passive armor increase works too. Sounds like these would work perfectly to buff your already tanky chroma much further with his multipliers. 

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

*Clearly has never played Wukong

especially the one thing that makes warframe so good is that every waframe feels OP in its own way. i mean look at Mesa... you allways feel mighty in some way but in terms of chroma. they just removed everything that makes chroma stand out. he was a hard to aquire late game tank with focus on gunplay. now he is just .. nothing of that. he buffs equally as rhino but is a worse tank. also he should be stronger because you are required to take dmg for him to work. with rhino you just simply activate his skill.

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, LuckyCharm said:

Just gonna throw this out there... theres now a couple of ways to get flat armor buffs which will do a whole lot to help mitigate the changes nerf assuming it was that much of a nerf. Arcane guardian and ultimatum give a massive amount or flat armor, and unairus passive armor increase works too. Sounds like these would work perfectly to buff your already tanky chroma much further with his multipliers. 

You clearly don't understand how the changes work, those arcanes and passives are not worth it at all anymore because they are additive with vex armor they dont get multiplied anymore. With how diminishing returns work for armor they are literally just a drop of water in differnece .

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

Trichouette " you didn't need to be that tanky to do something"

You say this yet nidus exist. . .

[LuckyCharm]

Additives are added before multipliers arent they? At least thats how the crit ones work. Wouldnt that mean things like steel fiber and vex armor will still multiply these?

[Ham_Grenabe]

31 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

90% reduction is nothibg if you are facing level 150 or higher.

Well there's your problem. 

[Dragazer]

10 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Additives are added before multipliers arent they? At least thats how the crit ones work. Wouldnt that mean things like steel fiber and vex armor will still multiply these?

Nope not anymore its now (Base)*(Vex+mods)

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

*Clearly has never played Wukong

 

You see here is the problem, Rhino Iron skin may not be tankier than vex armor in some situations and builds, but he literally has one of the best cc abilties in this game. Stomp can instantly freeze the entire room in place for 8 seconds and can be spammed recastable.

Chroma has absolutely no cc at all., the prenerf armor was crucial for survival when you literally have no other ways to avoid dmg with abilties 

BTW that DR for Chroma comes from armor specifically ferrite armor. What does that mean? well it means it gets effected by the modifier for dmg types.

That 90% DR gets halved against puncture, reduced to a quarter against corrosive, reduced to 75% against toxin, and RIP if you get hit by armor ignoring slash procs 

Oh and Mirage Eclipse and Mesa Shattershield cap out at 95% DR so yeah...

you speak from my heart. i am curious if DE will talk about chroma in the next prime time or dev stream. me personally i think that DE could fix the dmg exploit with DMG 3.0. i think thats the earliest date we can hope to hear about chroma returning to his old formula.

 

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb LuckyCharm:

Additives are added before multipliers arent they? At least thats how the crit ones work. Wouldnt that mean things like steel fiber and vex armor will still multiply these?

thats how it was before the changes. that was why chroma had a chance to tank something.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb (PS4)AtomicEyekon:

Trichouette " you didn't need to be that tanky to do something"

You say this yet nidus exist. . .

just think about wukong. even mirage is tankier than chroma now.

[DeadlyCreation]

i think this discribes it best:

In regards to Chroma, DE seriously messed up his damage and armor portion: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/919080-vex-armor-upd-22120/
Not many people know this, the reason Chroma's damage was so high was not because it multiplied with mods, but because Vex Armor actually double dipped its effects on weapons modded for dual elemental combos. To makes things worse on weapons that already have a dual elemental innate as its base damage, (Ogris, Penta, Arca Plasmor) vex armor would triple dip its effects. Here are the calculations someone did on these effects here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6o9l3w/some_more_math_behind_chromas_vex_armor_and_how/

As you can see here with max power strength, instead of the expected 6.23x dmg increase, you instead get a 242x damage multiplier on weapons with an innate dual element as its base damage, with weapons modded for dual elementals it is instead a 39x dmg multiplier.

We've seen the power of double/triple dipping already when it happened to stealth gas/slash procs and now we are (or were) seeing it again. This is the sole source of people casually one shotting Eidolon limbs Not the fact that Vex armor multiplied with mods. Had Vex armor multiplied dmg by the proper 6.23x multiplier, we would not be seeing so many people one-shotting so easily

From the first forum link I posted, You can see someone do some tests with Rhino roar and current vex armor. With the same increase Vex armor is doing noticeably less dmg than roar is.

This is because roar is multiplied with mods, while vex armor is now only additive. This problem becomes very apparent as you add more base damage from primed mods, heavy caliber, and riven mods.

Why is this an issue? You see with Chroma, damage and tankiness is literally the only 2 things he has going for him. His 1 was and still is terrible, 4 is still trash tier, 2 was indirectly nerfed by his 3 nerf, and as of right now 3 is basically gutted from both the armor and dmg aspect. He has absolutely zero crowd control at all, and zero ways to counter crowd control.

Inb4 you ask why Chroma should deal more dmg with his Vex armor:

Rhino is fine at where he is at. his Iron skin, is a great buffer and makes him cc immune, Charge makes him invulnerable for the duration, and his Roar in its current state is great and much better than Chroma as of now. It is able to buff team ability dmg (Chroma buff is limited to weapon only) along with weapons, it has a much wider radius and can be cast once and teammates receive benefits after moving away (Chroma's vex armor is an aura, squad must stay together for full duration.) and like I mention b4 it buffs damage much better once mods are accounted for. And then to top it off, stomp is undisputed one of the best cc in the game, a massive room wide radius once modded for that can completely shut down enemies. Like I mentioned b4 Chroma's only saving grace was his vex armor, with that clearly nerfed into the ground, he's got no legs left to stand on compared to other frames in both tankiness and dmg.

The part that irritates me the most is DE's reasoning for this. They state they want to change his formula to an additive one because apparently that is the way other dmg buffs are calculated. That is total bogus and you or anyone who actually plays this game knows it.

There are actually very few other abilities that work on Base Damage rather than Modded Damage in the game, Octavia's Amp and Mesa's Shooting Gallery are the only two I can think of that use the formula they changed Chroma's to.

Ember's Flash Accelerant, Saryn's Venom Dose, Frost's Freeze Force, Ember's Fireball Frenzy, Volt's Shock Trooper and Oberon's Smite infusion buffs go off of all mods minus Elemental Damage Mods.

Rhino's Roar, Mirage's Eclipse, Mirage's Hall of Mirrors, Ivara's Navigator, Ivara's Prowl, Volt's Electric Shield, Chroma's Old Vex Armor, Saryn's Toxic Lash, Nova AMD and MPrime and Banshee's Sonar go off of fully modded damage.

So to conclude, Vex armor multiplying with mods was not the source of its broken absurdity or one shotting Eidolon shenanigans. It was the fact it was bugged somehow to apply multiple times over itself in the presence of Dual elemental combos.

Please bring back the old formula ( (Base)x(Vex)x(Mods) just like almost everything else), but take away the double/triple dip this would make Chroma actually viable again in terms of tankiness and damage but not to the point of Eidolon Slayer levels of absurdity 

thanks to Dragazer for this awesome post. i just reposted it to this threat because it fits perfect to sums everything up!

Edited February 11, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[Dragazer]

9 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

-Snip-

Thanks for sharing this around I appreciate it. BTW I have the post on reddit too:

 https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/7wsrsn/chromas_vex_armor_calculation_seriously_needs/

Hopefully it gains the traction for DE to notice

Just really hate to see a good frame get trashed for no good reason. I see many threads and posts on Ember here and reddit, and just wanted to look out for Chroma too.

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Dragazer

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

Thanks for sharing this around I appreciate it. BTW I have the post on reddit too:

 https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/7wsrsn/chromas_vex_armor_calculation_seriously_needs/

Hopefully it gains the traction for DE to notice

Just really hate to see a good frame get trashed for no good reason. I see many threads and posts on Ember here and reddit, and just wanted to look out for Chroma too.

 

yeah. changing the formula is just a pathetic excuse to not fix the double and triple dipping. hopefully it gets fixed with DMG 3.0 and chroma can return to his former glory!

[Walkampf]

Il y a 1 heure, DeadlyCreation a dit :

90% reduction is nothibg if you are facing level 150 or higher. then oneshot you. 

something that chroma was able to do before the patch and was the only one able to. and since chroma us hard to aquire it was only logical that he can tank something

1st - A level 150 enemy is something you will never encounter during normal gameplay. Those are only encountered during endless missions.

Escalating missions have litereally the potential to ramp up the difficulty to intinity.

At some level DE has to stop considering where to balance the content, because otherwise escalating missions whouldn't get harder. The fact that they become harder endlessly means that they will at some point become unbeatable.

And let me guess, your next argument will be, but were is the offical line between 'normal' content and when does it get abnormal?

Otherwise you could just as well argue that Chroma is now broken, because

"99,9% reduction is nothibg if you are facing level 1500 or higher. then oneshot you. "

And the answer is simple, around level 100 is where DE stops balancing. 

This is indicated by trials, sorties and basically anything in the game never exeeding level 100 in content that is designed by hand.

Il y a 1 heure, Dragazer a dit :

*Clearly has never played Wukong

Just because another Warframe has this exploit doesn't make it OK.

(*shhh* Come closer, have you noticed, Wukong wasn't in the first batch of balancing at all. So everyone with even the slightest sense for logic can figure out, that he was not yet reviewd by Scott at all.)

Il y a 1 heure, Dragazer a dit :

and RIP if you get hit by armor ignoring slash procs 

Ehm... you are aware that his armor could literally feature the value infinite and he'd still get offed but a slash proc that ignores armor.

Get it? What was changed was the armor value you get out of Vexarmor... which, to reiterate, does effect the damage of slash procs in no way.

So there was no change compared to pre-patch...

I'd love to see your calculation that shows how much Chroma whould need in order to survive an armor ignoring slash proc.

 

Il y a 1 heure, Dragazer a dit :

Oh and Mirage Eclipse and Mesa Shattershield cap out at 95% DR so yeah...

True, however, Mirage only features this kind of defense when in the shadows, which is hardly anywhere. So it basically stops her from moving, thus removing the aiming penatly enemies suffer for shooting moving or airborne players. Also, she has to decide for either damage reduction or damage buff, while chroma get's both at the same time.

And as for Mesa, this value is basically needed in order for her 4 to work, since this as well as Mirages Eclipse, locks you into one position, and thus the player is unable to prevent damage through his actual gameplay, like moving, jumping, rolling. So there is, just as it is with Mirage, a tradeoff to the damage reduction.

 Also:

(*shhh* Come closer, have you noticed, Mesa wasn't in the first batch of balancing at all. So everyone with even the slightest sense for logic can figure out, that he was not yet reviewd by Scott at all.)

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

1st - A level 150 enemy is something you will never encounter during normal gameplay. Those are only encountered during endless missions.

Escalating missions have litereally the potential to ramp up the difficulty to intinity.

At some level DE has to stop considering where to balance the content, because otherwise escalating missions whouldn't get harder. The fact that they become harder endlessly means that they will at some point become unbeatable.

And let me guess, your next argument will be, but were is the offical line between 'normal' content and when does it get abnormal?

Otherwise you could just as well argue that Chroma is now broken, because

"99,9% reduction is nothibg if you are facing level 1500 or higher. then oneshot you. "

And the answer is simple, around level 100 is where DE stops balancing. 

This is indicated by trials, sorties and basically anything in the game never exeeding level 100 in content that is designed by hand.

Just because another Warframe has this exploit doesn't make it OK.

(*shhh* Come closer, have you noticed, Wukong wasn't in the first batch of balancing at all. So everyone with even the slightest sense for logic can figure out, that he was not yet reviewd by Scott at all.)

Ehm... you are aware that his armor could literally feature the value infinite and he'd still get offed but a slash proc that ignores armor.

Get it? What was changed was the armor value you get out of Vexarmor... which, to reiterate, does effect the damage of slash procs in no way.

So there was no change compared to pre-patch...

I'd love to see your calculation that shows how much Chroma whould need in order to survive an armor ignoring slash proc.

 

True, however, Mirage only features this kind of defense when in the shadows, which is hardly anywhere. So it basically stops her from moving, thus removing the aiming penatly enemies suffer for shooting moving or airborne players. Also, she has to decide for either damage reduction or damage buff, while chroma get's both at the same time.

And as for Mesa, this value is basically needed in order for her 4 to work, since this as well as Mirages Eclipse, locks you into one position, and thus the player is unable to prevent damage through his actual gameplay, like moving, jumping, rolling. So there is, just as it is with Mirage, a tradeoff to the damage reduction.

 Also:

(*shhh* Come closer, have you noticed, Mesa wasn't in the first batch of balancing at all. So everyone with even the slightest sense for logic can figure out, that he was not yet reviewd by Scott at all.)

still doesnt change my opinion. they took the one reason to play chroma away from him. i can understand if you are saying it was OP but if you take it away there needs to be a balancing factor. and as you said: level 100. chroma cant even handle level 100 at all. if you want to call this "balance" he should have goten a awesome cc ability that protects him. but right now he is trash. if they take away the one thing that makes him good they should have given him somethign to compensate for.. DE didnt.

 

ALSO this is not even the point i was talking about. i was saying that instead of fixing something DE decided to ignore the problem and cut everythign with it. DE could just have fixed the double and triple dipping exploid and everythign would have been fine. BUT i am just feeling lazyness from DE, instead of fixing the gltiches they decided to ruin a frame - the same treatment raids are getting. "uhh raids are full of glitches sicne the first second of release - better ignore them and remove raids 3 years later". seriously they could remove chroma from game totally now. he is just not working anymore. just remove him and add him back in as soon as you fix his exploit. cant believe that fixing it is that hard since it should basically be the same buff as rhinos and for him it works. i am seriously disappointed by DE

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I undestand that the dmg calculations were bugged etc but leveling it with Roar for instance make Chroma a straight up worse Rhino which can be tankier, provide the same buff and has a HUGE CC capability.

[DeadlyCreation]

yeah atm chroma is 100% a worse rhino.

the dmg buff is the same (altough you need way more strength in chroma than in rhino), also once rhinos buff is casted, teammates can move freely in a game in which movement is key a huge benefit. in chromas situation all teammates need to stick in a arround 18m range. sure you can buff the range but doing so just reduces the amount of survivablity and dmg buff. so making him even worse.

rhino tanks more and does not need to take dmg in order to be tanky (aka chroma can get one shotted even tho he has vex one because the armor hasnt build up.) -> so chroma needs to be tankier because achieving his tankyness has way more risk than rhino.

on top of that, rhino has one of the best cc in game. his stomp can protect him for such a long period and also(if running a low level mission) can clear out intere rooms by one click!

 

so why running chroma? there is no reason, chroma is dead

Edited February 11, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[Dragazer]

43 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Just because another Warframe has this exploit doesn't make it OK.

(*shhh* Come closer, have you noticed, Wukong wasn't in the first batch of balancing at all. So everyone with even the slightest sense for logic can figure out, that he was not yet reviewd by Scott at all.)

Ehm... you are aware that his armor could literally feature the value infinite and he'd still get offed but a slash proc that ignores armor.

Get it? What was changed was the armor value you get out of Vexarmor... which, to reiterate, does effect the damage of slash procs in no way.

So there was no change compared to pre-patch...

I'd love to see your calculation that shows how much Chroma whould need in order to survive an armor ignoring slash proc.

 

True, however, Mirage only features this kind of defense when in the shadows, which is hardly anywhere. So it basically stops her from moving, thus removing the aiming penatly enemies suffer for shooting moving or airborne players. Also, she has to decide for either damage reduction or damage buff, while chroma get's both at the same time.

And as for Mesa, this value is basically needed in order for her 4 to work, since this as well as Mirages Eclipse, locks you into one position, and thus the player is unable to prevent damage through his actual gameplay, like moving, jumping, rolling. So there is, just as it is with Mirage, a tradeoff to the damage reduction.

 Also:

(*shhh* Come closer, have you noticed, Mesa wasn't in the first batch of balancing at all. So everyone with even the slightest sense for logic can figure out, that he was not yet reviewd by Scott at all.)

Provide a source where DE has stated Wukong's Defy is an exploit. He has been around now for years, with numerous people making note of his Defy on popular youtube vids and such. Please don't pull bogus info out of nowhere. Besides Wukong isn't alone, Nidus fully stacked and linked up standing in his ult offers similar results. 

Yes but you see DR abilties actually reduce dmg on slash procs, not armor, I was making the point armor alone isnt great as it seems.

I'd like to compare the whole kits rather than abilties, Mirage has hall of mirrors aswell for damage, also the clones draw aggro away from her aswell. Lets not forget the big disco ball blind she has.

Mesa also has shooting gallery aswell which jams ranged weapons aswell which also benefits the team aswell.

Once again provide sources where there are any signs of Mesa getting looked at. How can you be sure if Scott hasn't already in fact looked at her and already deemed her ok? Otherwise these are just baseless statements based purely on speculation.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Dragazer

[Walkampf]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

Provide a source where DE has stated Wukong's Defy is an exploit. 

Provide a source where I has stated Wukong's Defy is an exploit.

Live what you preach my friend.

I merely stated, that there are a lot of Warframes didn't get any changes during the last Update. Does this mean, those other Warframes are working perfectly as intended by DE, or does this maybe mean, they that they will get under review, now that the first batch has been tweaked?

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

Yes but you see DR abilties actually reduce dmg on slash procs, not armor, I was making the point armor alone isnt great as it seems.

OK, so according to this argument every Warframe, which doesn't feature a way to reduce bleed damage is just as useless as Chroma is now considered to be.

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

I'd like to compare the whole kits rather than abilties, Mirage has hall of mirrors aswell for damage, also the clones draw aggro away from her aswell. Lets not forget the big disco ball blind she has.

Chromas Effigy draws aggro and periodically causes an AoE stun.

Spectral Scream applies Cold/Heat/Electric procs.

Elemental Ward gives additional armor and slows / causes lightningstrikes, that procc electric procs and gives Shields / grants additional health, massivly increasing his effective healthpool.

You want to compare complete kits? Sure. Literally every ability from Chromas kit makes him last longer in a fight.

 

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

Once again provide sources where there are any signs of Mesa getting looked at. How can you be sure if Scott hasn't already in fact looked at her and already deemed her ok? Otherwise these are just baseless statements based purely on speculation.

Here is the source

Spoiler

 

Of course i won't bother to watch the whole stream again, just to find the minute where Scott says, that 'he'd love take a look at the other Frames in the future if he had time to do so'. 

I'll just hope you are at least capable of that much...

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

Provide a source where I has stated Wukong's Defy is an exploit.

Live what you preach my friend.

I merely stated, that there are a lot of Warframes didn't get any changes during the last Update. Does this mean, those other Warframes are working perfectly as intended by DE, or does this maybe mean, they that they will get under review, now that the first batch has been tweaked?...

seems like u dont even know the simple definition of an exploit. wukong has no exploit he works as intended.

 

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

 

Chromas Effigy draws aggro and periodically causes an AoE stun.

Spectral Scream applies Cold/Heat/Electric procs.

Elemental Ward gives additional armor and slows / causes lightningstrikes, that procc electric procs and gives Shields / grants additional health, massivly increasing his effective healthpool.

You want to compare complete kits? Sure. Literally every ability from Chromas kit makes him last longer in a fight.

 

chromas effigy is literally the worst cc in game. it takes ages for his scale to stun enemies and is not relyable. also it can be killed even before it stuns. making it useless at high levels.

and have u ever tried using chromas spectral scream? there is just no way somebody could defend that. and compared to the ice elemtal ward do the other elements just stay behind.

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb DeadlyCreation:

seems like u dont even know the simple definition of an exploit. wukong has no exploit he works as intended.

Dude... quote where i called Defy an exploit...

Do you really hat such a problem understanding language? OK, since you are rather slow on the uptake i'll spell it out for you:

'No, Defy is not an exploit. However, seeing the recent trend in the balancing of countering 1button2win abilities strongly suggests, that, when Wukong is up in the future, Defy will heavily changed, since Defy absolutly fits the kind of ability DE does not like anymore.'

Do you understand this now?

Or do you want me to paint a picture?

[Dragazer]

30 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Provide a source where I has stated Wukong's Defy is an exploit.

Live what you preach my friend.

Dealing with short term memory loss?

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

Just because another Warframe has this exploit doesn't make it OK.

 

30 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

OK, so according to this argument every Warframe, which doesn't feature a way to reduce bleed damage is just as useless as Chroma is now considered to be.

No the thing is other frames have abilties such as cc or cloaking to avoid damage. Chroma has none of those and therefore suffers as a result of relying entirely on armor to save his skin.

30 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Chromas Effigy draws aggro and periodically causes an AoE stun.

Effigy stuns randomly you have zero control on when it stuns it can literally waste a stun on one single enemy, the range of the stun and duration are completely unaffected by mods considering that it halves your armor while also costing 10 energy/s at base is completely pitiful.

30 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Spectral Scream applies Cold/Heat/Electric procs.

At a 60% chance per second, which restricts weapon usage, in a 10 meter cone area

 

30 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Elemental Ward gives additional armor and slows / causes lightningstrikes, that procc electric procs and gives Shields / grants additional health, massivly increasing his effective healthpool.

Slows and lightning strikes are not controlled by player they entirely dependent on the enemy hitting you. The enemies in your immediate vicinity, are the only ones getting afffected. You can't decide who gets cc'd. Health and shield bonuses are a drop of water considering the fact that you can only gain one bonus at the time for each element.

30 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Here is the source

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Of course i won't bother to watch the whole stream again, just to find the minute where Scott says, that 'he'd love take a look at the other Frames in the future if he had time to do so'. 

I'll just hope you are at least capable of that much...

In what world does "he'd love take a look at the other Frames in the future if he had time to do so" = "we are going to take a look at Mesa for sure and do some tweaks."

She's already had several reworks and tweaks. b4

Edited February 11, 2018 by Dragazer

[Walkampf]

Edited because insults are not OK, even if trolls frustrate you so much you want to.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Walkampf

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Walkampf:

For the love of god... you are really as dense as a rock... just, please, tell me you are simply ignoring the age restriction this game has. Don't make me loose all hope in humanity. Pretty please?

seems like we broke all your arguments and you have nothing left. just accept that chroma is one of the worst frames in game atm. rhino 0.5. stop defending the poor changes DE made.

[Dragazer]

2 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

For the love of god... you are really as dense as a rock... just, please, tell me you are simply ignoring the age restriction this game has. Don't make me loose all hope in humanity. Pretty please?

Classic ad hominem, got nothing else to say so the personal attacks start coming in.