Chroma Needs Higher Base Health/Armor After The Vex Armor Changes

[HUNDarkTemplar]

6 hours ago, Valgaarv said:

Im the only one that feels chroma is still a monster with 96% damage reduction and X8 damage buff? Just tested him against 20 eximus corpus tech lv 145 and no problems, 1+ hour orokin survival and still see one shots on bombards, yes he should have  a better 1 or 4 but what he has now it´s good and consistent.

Its not 8x damage, because Its addictive. It was 8x damage before the fix, now Its like 2,5-3 times damage or something. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

22 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Here is the thing tho, Nekros and Nidus both have ramp time (more notable for nekros on high level maps, more notable on/obvious on low enemy density open maps for nidus) and upkeep/maintenance of their DR values, with Nekros being less stuck to a place than Nidus since the AI is merely mostly braindead instead of getting turned off.

With new refresh buff Vex that doesnt apply (same rules as Trinity), thus any DR over 75% should have some heavy downside (or be something like 25-30% DR base thus require most strength mods).

I think that would be fine if it required High amounts for 90%+ DR

Trinity has 50m group wide refreshable 75% DR 

Chroma's downside would be his shorter Range in comparison.

Trinity's Link is not refreshable but it also does require actually linking to enemies. (Her Abating Link does require high Powerstrength to strip Armor; where as Mag has a fixed Armor removal Cap on Fracturing Crush.)

Although I don't know if multiple Chroma's should ever be allowed to stack DR Aura, if changed.

[Valgaarv]

Il y a 8 heures, DeadlyCreation a dit :

cna you please tell me how you get the 96% reduction. i only go up to 90%. and these 6% mean alot in terms of EHP. id love to see your math / build behind it.

Im using a 299% power strength build and unless there is some "magic" behind the calculation of scorn I reach 3661 armor (92% damage reduction) only with vex armor and the base 350 of croma, then steel fiber boost to 7688 (96% damage reduction). If im missing something please tell me, but still, with this i have completed a 1 hour survival in Mot, (which is my test field) and have no major problems, then a simulacrum against corpus techs and another with heavy gunners and bombards.

 

A player told me i had to aplly vex armor buff only to base armor, so now i calculated 93,74% damage reduction, and i´m still missing arcanes (have none) and growing power effect, so maybe i can reach 94% and for me that´s still pritty good (yes, 99% =/= 94% but come on, he was like valkyre histeria with range weapons xd).

Edited February 15, 2018 by Valgaarv

[Klokwerkaos]

My main issue here is that Chroma is said by the lotus directly to be "the most powerful of all warframes" directly in story mode.  And further, it says later he's the only one left standing after all is dust or whatever in the codex.  My question is "how?!?!?". 

I can appreciate his buff was too extreme before, but this makes him a mediocre frame when lore consistantly tells us he's the friggen best... how is he the best DE?  How is he the best Lotus?  He's not.  He's not the best at anything now except maybe being mediocre.  Is his damage buff technically the best?  I guess, but his survivability is garbage by comparison and he's about on par with ash now, the poster child of mediocre warframes. 

Can he do a thing or two that is neat?  Yup.  But is he the most powerful?  Hell no.  I have no faith that he's the most powerful frame, I can't feel that, and I'm not even a chroma regular/main player.  

If we say chroma is the most powerful we might as well say up is down and black is white.  Fix your lore or fix chroma, stop Lotus from blatantly lying to us about chroma.  I'm not saying revert him to what he was, but this is nonsense.

If chroma is the cockroach that survives the apocalypse, then make him tankier, make him able to burst a little better than the buff he currently gives to the team, make him a solo frame that can take the punishment.  Right now he's a watered down Rhino, which is basic as hell frame that most players acquire first.  If it was up to which frames would survive when all is dust, my money is on Nidus, not Chroma, because he's made of infestation and is actually a survivable frame that can take punishment and deal it out.  Chroma should at least be able to go head to head with Nidus if he's so great, and right now I don't see that as even remotely possible.

#liarlotus

 

PS:  I'll point out also, that since chroma's nerf, people have solo'd tri-dolon with other frames just fine in a few minutes.  Should we nerf all frames to B grade until all of them are bland, the same and really have nothing about them that makes them special?  IMHO, that's a great way to kill the element of "fun" that makes warframe what it is.  Each warframe SHOULD have something that makes it special, and now chroma really, well, doesn't, and he doesn't fit with his own lore either.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2/14/2018 at 11:42 PM, Valgaarv said:

Im using a 299% power strength build and unless there is some "magic" behind the calculation of scorn I reach 3661 armor (92% damage reduction) only with vex armor and the base 350 of croma, then steel fiber boost to 7688 (96% damage reduction). If im missing something please tell me, but still, with this i have completed a 1 hour survival in Mot, (which is my test field) and have no major problems, then a simulacrum against corpus techs and another with heavy gunners and bombards.

 

A player told me i had to aplly vex armor buff only to base armor, so now i calculated 93,74% damage reduction, and i´m still missing arcanes (have none) and growing power effect, so maybe i can reach 94% and for me that´s still pritty good (yes, 99% =/= 94% but come on, he was like valkyre histeria with range weapons xd).

Here's the thing. Even with your build, Mesa with intensify only is stronger, because she give 95% DR with some strong CC and rocket reflection. Saying you can do daily content and star chart says nothing about chroma. Daily content is SUPERweak for tanks and any tank or any frame for that matter can do what you did., since you have the skills to do it. You annot judge a frame by current content, because current content is always changing. 3 years ago, highest level content was 50, till we got sorties. Them we got buffed over time with power creep. 1 year ago, everyone said chroma needed a buff. Then we got Eidolons, so now he got a nerf. Current content is always changing, so the true test of how a frame stands is byt the standard of the others. By standard, chroma is by far the weakest tank in game. He's now a tank servant, giving other frames his buffs so that they do everything better than him. He's a team servant, the squad errand boy. and not in a Nekros/Trinity way (Who BTW are still stronger)

[Klokwerkaos]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Here's the thing. Even with your build, Mesa with intensify only is stronger, because she give 95% DR with some strong CC and rocket reflection. Saying you can do daily content and star chart says nothing about chroma. Daily content is SUPERweak for tanks and any tank or any frame for that matter can do what you did., since you have the skills to do it. You annot judge a frame by current content, because current content is always changing. 3 years ago, highest level content was 50, till we got sorties. Them we got buffed over time with power creep. 1 year ago, everyone said chroma needed a buff. Then we got Eidolons, so now he got a nerf. Current content is always changing, so the true test of how a frame stands is byt the standard of the others. By standard, chroma is by far the weakest tank in game. He's now a tank servant, giving other frames his buffs so that they do everything better than him. He's a team servant, the squad errand boy. and not in a Nekros/Trinity way (Who BTW are still stronger)

FWIW he also kind of sucks as a buffer, needing to maintain proximity, which is pretty useless in hydralist hunts where you frequently need to jump away from each other to avoid getting nuked, which is exactly when his buff would be most valuable.  Rhino Roar is pretty much going to be better in most all cases.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Valgaarv]

Il y a 13 heures, (PS4)Crixus044 a dit :

Here's the thing. Even with your build, Mesa with intensify only is stronger, because she give 95% DR with some strong CC and rocket reflection. Saying you can do daily content and star chart says nothing about chroma. Daily content is SUPERweak for tanks and any tank or any frame for that matter can do what you did., since you have the skills to do it. You annot judge a frame by current content, because current content is always changing. 3 years ago, highest level content was 50, till we got sorties. Them we got buffed over time with power creep. 1 year ago, everyone said chroma needed a buff. Then we got Eidolons, so now he got a nerf. Current content is always changing, so the true test of how a frame stands is byt the standard of the others. By standard, chroma is by far the weakest tank in game. He's now a tank servant, giving other frames his buffs so that they do everything better than him. He's a team servant, the squad errand boy. and not in a Nekros/Trinity way (Who BTW are still stronger)

If you read my other post I already said that chroma needs a better 1 or 4, this was an answer of how i reached over 90% damage reduction, the only reason because chroma could be seen mediocre now it´s because he only has those 2 buffs and nothing more, but if he gets a CC skill like atlas or inaros, crhoma would be as good as those two rigth now, atlas can barely reach 90% damage reduction, but he has a good CC, inaros and nidus are better because they have self heal and CC, rhino is better as a tank if you know how to use him, because his ehp depends on how many targets you get from his ironclad, so the only thing that crhoma is missing now it´s a CC or self heal skill.

 

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

On 15/2/2018 at 5:42 AM, Valgaarv said:

Im using a 299% power strength build and unless there is some "magic" behind the calculation of scorn I reach 3661 armor (92% damage reduction) only with vex armor and the base 350 of croma, then steel fiber boost to 7688 (96% damage reduction). If im missing something please tell me, but still, with this i have completed a 1 hour survival in Mot, (which is my test field) and have no major problems, then a simulacrum against corpus techs and another with heavy gunners and bombards.

 

A player told me i had to aplly vex armor buff only to base armor, so now i calculated 93,74% damage reduction, and i´m still missing arcanes (have none) and growing power effect, so maybe i can reach 94% and for me that´s still pritty good (yes, 99% =/= 94% but come on, he was like valkyre histeria with range weapons xd).

Your math is wrong, since vex armor does not multiply the bonus from steel fiber. It is 350 x (1+1,1+"vex armor multiplier").

If you are ice you might reach 95-96% damage reduction with combined bonus from elemental ward and vex.

[Vanillu]

Real talk though.

I'd really like to know how Chroma's TANKYNESS was a problem and they decided to nerf it. 

Chroma's main 'problem' was solo stuff. Having someone who is on par with Rhino with a full strength iron skin build with shrapnel tankyness wise is fine.

But I would really like to know who thought it was a good idea to nerf a frames tankyness because it was 'too good', especially when this 'problem' they spoke of was mainly Chroma's damage output. 

Where is the realism amongst all this logic, lol.

Literally if they reverted his tankyness back to before this change, he would be 100% fine with me and I would still main him.

[Valgaarv]

Le 19-02-2018 à 05:07, (PS4)Rasmus_ep88 a dit :

Your math is wrong, since vex armor does not multiply the bonus from steel fiber. It is 350 x (1+1,1+"vex armor multiplier").

If you are ice you might reach 95-96% damage reduction with combined bonus from elemental ward and vex.

Mmm, then i should reach like 94% with my build, for me it´s good for tanking, but he still laks of other trick, i think effigy should work like atlas golems, with duration time and his own armor, so it could be used on the same vex armor build and effigy could help taking aggro from chroma and doing some cc, that change it´s very easy to do, even the augument could be usefull with this.

[taiiat]

15 minutes ago, Valgaarv said:

for me it´s good for tanking

it's still ~10x less EHP than Chroma had before.

'enough for Lv40 Enemies' isn't the point, the point is that EHP and Damage Output is literally the only thing Chroma does. even if he had CC there's going to be way better CC options so EHP and Damage would still be the entire point of the Warframe and if those two aren't significantly ahead of every other Warframe, then Chroma is simply pointless. as he is currently.
Eidolons is the only place one might use Chroma, and that is only because Vex Armor is easier to use than some of the alternative (RE: better) Damage Multiplying Abilities for it. 

there are certainly other options, that being having the capability to change Elementals in Mission per Ability, so that Chroma can be chromatic, and then being able to Heal, Tank, Utility buff Weapons, and increase Damage. this would work well as long as Ice Ward was buffed since it's useless currently due to how Vex Armor changed.
and obviously Spectral Scream needs further touch ups (being a fully one handed Ability so you can debuff Enemies without having to compete against your guns), and Effigy needs... i don't know. rotating Elementals will help both of those Abilities somewhat too but that won't be enough for those as everyone knows.

[Valgaarv]

il y a une heure, taiiat a dit :

'enough for Lv40 Enemies' isn't the point

If you need more EHP to do a lv 100 mission the the problem it´s you

[taiiat]

11 minutes ago, Valgaarv said:

If you need more EHP to do a lv 100 mission the the problem it´s you

the point

 

it's over here, you are not.
which means you definitely did not read what i wrote.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

3 hours ago, Valgaarv said:

If you need more EHP to do a lv 100 mission the the problem it´s you

Hardly the case with him, and hardly the point. any frame of any EHp can do level 100, but it's how you did it over doing it in general. The fact is that Chroma is the weakest tank, and where most tanks focus their time and energy on how to kill enemies, protect teammates, and help the squad, Chroma is gonna be hiding behind cover. Of course, you can disagree and say you did fine, but let's take this scenario to the higher ups. Let's go up against a sortie 100 Mutalist Alad V. Try to draw his attention, take his shots, and shoot him. If you're tryna do it with chroma, you're silly, while with Trinity, who now has 3x his EHp, will be laughing at you, giving teammates more EHp than you can with your armor aura, give energy to teammates, heal them, strip armor of enemies, give overshields, and all the while dealing damage. Now try an hour Mot, where enemies deal 300% damage. After an hour, chroma is struggling, but managing. Trinity, Mesa, Nidus, Inaros, Nekros, Oberon, Rhino, Wukong, Valkyr, Nyx, Gara, and Mirage are cruising since they deal far more damage and tank more damage, and have CC.

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Hardly the case with him, and hardly the point. any frame of any EHp can do level 100, but it's how you did it over doing it in general. The fact is that Chroma is the weakest tank, and where most tanks focus their time and energy on how to kill enemies, protect teammates, and help the squad, Chroma is gonna be hiding behind cover. Of course, you can disagree and say you did fine, but let's take this scenario to the higher ups. Let's go up against a sortie 100 Mutalist Alad V. Try to draw his attention, take his shots, and shoot him. If you're tryna do it with chroma, you're silly, while with Trinity, who now has 3x his EHp, will be laughing at you, giving teammates more EHp than you can with your armor aura, give energy to teammates, heal them, strip armor of enemies, give overshields, and all the while dealing damage. Now try an hour Mot, where enemies deal 300% damage. After an hour, chroma is struggling, but managing. Trinity, Mesa, Nidus, Inaros, Nekros, Oberon, Rhino, Wukong, Valkyr, Nyx, Gara, and Mirage are cruising since they deal far more damage and tank more damage, and have CC.

If you experience Warframe missions lasting longer than 40 minutes, please seek medical help immediately.

[Valgaarv]

Il y a 8 heures, (PS4)Crixus044 a dit :

Hardly the case with him, and hardly the point. any frame of any EHP can do level 100, but it's how you did it over doing it in general. The fact is that Chroma is the weakest tank, and where most tanks focus their time and energy on how to kill enemies, protect teammates, and help the squad, Chroma is gonna be hiding behind cover. Of course, you can disagree and say you did fine, but let's take this scenario to the higher ups. Let's go up against a sortie 100 Mutalist Alad V. Try to draw his attention, take his shots, and shoot him. If you're tryna do it with chroma, you're silly, while with Trinity, who now has 3x his EHp, will be laughing at you, giving teammates more EHp than you can with your armor aura, give energy to teammates, heal them, strip armor of enemies, give overshields, and all the while dealing damage. Now try an hour Mot, where enemies deal 300% damage. After an hour, chroma is struggling, but managing. Trinity, Mesa, Nidus, Inaros, Nekros, Oberon, Rhino, Wukong, Valkyr, Nyx, Gara, and Mirage are cruising since they deal far more damage and tank more damage, and have CC.

And that is my point about Chroma but nobody can understand me, with 300% power strength you can reach 92% damage reduction ONLY WITH VEX ARMOR AND HIS BASE ARMOR VALUE (93,74% with steel fiber and elemental ward), but what chroma needs now to be good again is OTHER ABILITIES.

Atlas can barely reach 90% damage reduction, but he is better than chroma BECAUSE HE HAS CC AND INVULNERABILITY WITH HIS 1

Rhino can reach insane amounts of ehp ONLY IF YOU DO A GOOD CHARGE, otherwise you get ONLY 20K, but he is still better than crhoma BECAUSE HE HAS A GOOD CC AND TEAM DAMAGE BUFF

Inaros is better than chroma BECAUSE HE HAS CC AND SELF HEAL

Nidus is better than chroma BECAUSE HE HAS CC AND SELF HEAL

So what needs Chroma to be good again? OTHER ABILITIES ASIDE VEX ARMOR

Trinity damage resistance is capped at 75%, so how can be better than 90%?

Mirage tank? she dies at any AOE ("but she can absorb 95% damage with eclipse" yes and you have to stay on the same spot during all the mission, also she can only get one damage or tank buff at time)

I hope you can take my point that Chroma AS A TANK it´s fine, but HE LACKS OTHER ABILITIES to be complete.

 

PD: if you use a melee weapon or steel meridian proc gun you don´t need to hide behind a wall

[(PSN)Crixus044]

4 hours ago, Valgaarv said:

And that is my point about Chroma but nobody can understand me, with 300% power strength you can reach 92% damage reduction ONLY WITH VEX ARMOR AND HIS BASE ARMOR VALUE (93,74% with steel fiber and elemental ward), but what chroma needs now to be good again is OTHER ABILITIES.

Atlas can barely reach 90% damage reduction, but he is better than chroma BECAUSE HE HAS CC AND INVULNERABILITY WITH HIS 1

Rhino can reach insane amounts of ehp ONLY IF YOU DO A GOOD CHARGE, otherwise you get ONLY 20K, but he is still better than crhoma BECAUSE HE HAS A GOOD CC AND TEAM DAMAGE BUFF

Inaros is better than chroma BECAUSE HE HAS CC AND SELF HEAL

Nidus is better than chroma BECAUSE HE HAS CC AND SELF HEAL

So what needs Chroma to be good again? OTHER ABILITIES ASIDE VEX ARMOR

Trinity damage resistance is capped at 75%, so how can be better than 90%?

Mirage tank? she dies at any AOE ("but she can absorb 95% damage with eclipse" yes and you have to stay on the same spot during all the mission, also she can only get one damage or tank buff at time)

I hope you can take my point that Chroma AS A TANK it´s fine, but HE LACKS OTHER ABILITIES to be complete.

 

PD: if you use a melee weapon or steel meridian proc gun you don´t need to hide behind a wall

Well I agree that chroma could use other uses, but as a tank, I don't think he's fine. I can understand that the other frames are good because of their other uses, but they're not the same as chroma. They don't have the same theme and they don't fit the same role.Let me clear some things up though. I rarely see builds reach over 269% PS, but out the goodness of my heart, I'll give chroma the benefit of the doubt and make a 299% PS build with Steel Fiber, as if I was going all out for tankiness (Not really an optimal build though)

Spoiler

Chroma's Armor with Double Arcane 299% PS and Steel Fiber: 8214. Damage Reduction with only abilities: <95.9%. Damage reduction w/Arcanes: < 96.48%. Damage Reduction w/Arcanes against puncture damage: < 93.2%. (Has Team Armor Buff, Base Damage Buff). EHp (w/Arcanes Vitality and Primed Vigor): 27,273

Mesa With Shatter Shield: <95.24%. Damage Reduction with Double Arcane and Shatter Shield: 99.01%. Damage Reduction Against Puncture Damage: 98.35%. (Has CC, team buff, and high dps.) EHp (w/Arcanes and Vitality): 96,435

Trinity With Link+Blessing Damage Reduction: <94.05%. Trinity with Double Arcane and Link+Blessing: >98.76%. Against Puncture: >97.93%. (Has Team Heals, Team Damage Reduction, Team Energy Restore,and Scaling Damage) EHp (w/Arcanes, Vitality, and Primed Vigor): 89,900

Nidus* Damage Reduction <97.6%. Nidus w/Arcane: >98.77%. Against Puncture: >97.814%. (Has CC, Team Heals, Semi-Scaling Damage, PS Buff, 6 Invulnerability Cycles, and Self Heals). EHp (w/Arcanes and Vitality only): 90,246

Inaros** Damage Reduction: <70.3%. Damage Reduction w/Arcanes: >86.425%. Against Puncture: <76.1%. (Has Blind and tornado CC, Finishers, 8x damage stealth, Team Heals, Invulnerability usage, and Self Heals). EHp (w/Arcane https://goo.gl/R7EmAu build): 41,327

Rhino Prime Ironclad Skin on 3 enemies with decent build w/Arcane: 37,424. (Has total damage multiplier for weapons and abilities, map lockdown cc, and can recast Iron skin after destruction, immune to status and magnetic energy drain, 3 sec, invulnerability on charge and Iron skin cast that scales with enemy damage). 

*Can be stronger, but due to the nature of Nidus' abilities, it's better for yourself to play for a balance of EHp and powers
**I made Inaros intentionally not maxed out on EHp only because of a personal build I prefer to run that uses 2 Gladatior Mods and Negating Swarm, but can go much higher, as most people's builds have.

 

So even with the suggestion you have of giving him another use other than tanking, even if he gets something on par with mesa, nidus, trinity, etc. he'll still far too weak tanking wise. Sure he can MANAGE today's content, but this is not really a viable point, since really anything can manage at current levels. even a Saryn built for EHp can tank current  content.

Edited February 22, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[DeathOmega]

I do have a idea, a rework that solves 2 things.

1. We want tanky chroma back. So return the old calculation for scorn.

2.DE doesn't want us to "one shot" things. Thus rework fury to be a hp regen or a life steal. No damage buff.

This works for 2 reasons. For one, in "stranger things" quest, it is said: "when all else is in ruins, only chroma shall remain", hinting that he is a survivor above all else. Having a way to heal yourself fits the theme. Furthermore, we know chroma is inspired by the dragons of Continental European Folklore. One thing about it is that the blood of the dragon contain magical properties, including longer life.

Also, can we just drop the range thing on both elemental ward and vex armour? For one, given how chroma is THE ONLY survivor in the aforementioned quest, it would make no sense that chroma can team buff. Furthermore, other warframes, like rhino and valkyr, both help the much better than any help chroma can give. (Unless the hp regent is put into place. Hp regen is always useful)

Edited February 23, 2018 by DeathOmega

[Kalvorax]

On 2/19/2018 at 12:12 AM, Vanillu said:

I'd really like to know how Chroma's TANKYNESS was a problem and they decided to nerf it. 

its simply the math involved for the single ability.....DE can't seem to separate it so we HAVE the tankyness back. why that is, is beyond me.....

Armor = original formula
Damage = Currently formula

instead of armor and damage = current formula

i personally think they should flip the damage and armor buff gain to shields and health compared to the current, armor = shield and dmg = health....shields are impossible to get back up if your not using a sentinel (and thus useless once its revives are all used up)....no matter if we can NOW recast his 3....thus it would be shield damage = higher damage and health damage = armor bonus.....shields right now do not have any way to regen at all when under constant fire..unlike health.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Kalvorax

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

1 hour ago, Kalvorax said:

its simply the math involved for the single ability.....DE can't seem to separate it so we HAVE the tankyness back. why that is, is beyond me.....

Armor = original formula
Damage = Currently formula

instead of armor and damage = current formula

i personally think they should flip the damage and armor buff gain to shields and health compared to the current, armor = shield and dmg = health....shields are impossible to get back up if your not using a sentinel (and thus useless once its revives are all used up)....no matter if we can NOW recast his 3....thus it would be shield damage = higher damage and health damage = armor bonus.....shields right now do not have any way to regen at all when under constant fire..unlike health.

Actually that last thing about shields being unable to regen while under attack, Arcane Aegis can do that

Edited February 23, 2018 by Mr.Snipersmiley

[Kalvorax]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

Actually that last thing about shields being unable to regen while under attack, Arcane Aegis can do that

hmm true...but even with the arcanes dropping from teralysts now it still not available to the majority of people. Thanks for pointing that out, as i didn't take arcanes into account.

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

Just now, Kalvorax said:

hmm true...but even with the arcanes dropping from teralysts now it still not available to the majority of people. Thanks for pointing that out, as i didn't take arcanes into account.

Yeah I utilize aegis to max out my shields in one go cause even with a max arcane barrier it’s just a 4% chance