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Ash bladestorm needs a rework (again)


nokturnihs
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So Ash; love him. Has a lot of fun stuff in his kit. However, his bladestorm changes take away about 60% of his survivability because it's damned near impossible to jump in on bladestorm. The simplest fix would just be as follows:

After marking targets:

Tap 4 to unleash bladestorm and keep fighting while your clones kick &#!

Hold 4 to join in on bladestorm and gain the invulnerability. 

I personally would prefer this as it keeps my bladestorm augment useful. With that, Naramon and drifting contact that makes melee nice. Since I have a disease like MS and my coordination is poor, this made ash my new best friend when I finally got him - melee at range? Yep. 

 

If the above solution isn't doable, then shemp in a toggle in appearance or something... I want a way that doesn't involve more precision than a sniper rifle to jump in on bladestorm. The option of both would be cool, but not right now. Can't teleport in before the clones are done working... 

 

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You know, you can be invisible while marking targets for bladestorm. Bladestorm is even cheaper while doing so.

Find it difficult to get complaints about survivability when the frame has invisibility and invincibility during his ultimate.

Edited by Buzkyl
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I agree that the opt-in is very unwieldy. Another option could have been the ability to 'opt-out'.

First press of 4 enters marking mode; second press begins attack with Ash automatically joining in.

Third press of '4' to opt-out and let the clones complete the remaining marks.

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3 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

You know, you can be invisible while marking targets for bladestorm. Bladestorm is even cheaper while doing so.

Find it difficulty to get complaints about survivability when the frame has invisibility and invincibility during his ultimate.

Some people hate the bladestorm animation. But some people also like it. Some like it for the invulnerability. Some like it for the actual animation (equally and understandably, some hate it).

There needs to some way to cater for all, without making one option too difficult compared to another.

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2 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

 

Some people hate the bladestorm animation. But some people also like it. Some like it for the invulnerability. Some like it for the actual animation (equally and understandably, some hate it).

There needs to some way to cater for all, without making one option too difficult compared to another.

Isn't that the very reason why it was changed  an opt in method.

  1. So those who hate the animation don't have to suffer through it
  2. Those who love it can opt in to doing so
  3. Those who use it for invulnerable periods are also not left dry

I don't see how the curent iteration isn't serving all parties. 

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I've been really enjoying the hit and run tactics with it. I agree though jumping into the animation seems a bit tricky especially on the fly. I like to jump around a lot personally so targeting and initiating powers or taking shots needs to be seamless and not feel dodgy or clumsy. I like the double tap 4 to opt in that someone above me put up....teleport is nice and I like to use it but I feel like the opt in option shouldn't be tied to it.

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17 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Isn't that the very reason why it was changed  an opt in method.

  1. So those who hate the animation don't have to suffer through it
  2. Those who love it can opt in to doing so
  3. Those who use it for invulnerable periods are also not left dry

I don't see how the curent iteration isn't serving all parties. 

While I agree the current iteration does serve all parties, it doesn't do so equally without penalising one over another, reason as raised by OP. Try to actually opt-in during the chaos of an engagement.

Hence I offered the opt-out option in my comment.

If we compare the same development path as Volt Speed, the short period where we had to deal with that 'opt in haste coil' eventually gave way to 'opt out'. Hunting for a haste coil was unwieldy much in the same way now having to track down marked targets to teleport into.

On a semi-related note, without the animation, how is Bladestorm now functionally any different from being a more energy-efficient, more powerful Shuriken. Throw 2 shuriken for 25 energy for 500 Slash damage each; or Throw a clone for 12 energy with 2000 Finisher damage each. The animation was part of the 'cost' of using one of the game's most powerful true damage dealing abilities, just like most powerful/'ultimate' abilities tend towards two-handed/stationary cast.

Edited by RunningTree3
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On 10/02/2018 at 9:01 PM, Buzkyl said:

You know, you can be invisible while marking targets for bladestorm. Bladestorm is even cheaper while doing so.

Find it difficult to get complaints about survivability when the frame has invisibility and invincibility during his ultimate.

I find it difficult to relate invisibility to survivability. I frankly don't care about being invisible while marking. The build I use for ash is based around his 4 and his his 1/3 - smoke bomb has 2 seconds and is relatively useless (I can use Ivara or shade for invisibility, or loki or arcane trickery or whatever). Joining in on bladestorm gives you a few vital seconds for things like shield recharge, arcane grace, medi-ray or another squad mates heal. And it builds combo properly. Invisibility doesn't save you from DoT procs, AOE or the like. They don't target you. Napalm or bombard aren't necessarily targeting you and your argument isn't valid if for that reason alone. Ash can easily be one of the best melee tanks in the game with his 4, and high DPS as well - he can also fill some stealth roles. And he's got mobility. A well balanced frame the way his 4 worked. However, with the opt-in being incredibly difficult to pull off, it takes away a lot of what makes him unique. His 1 is amazing for stripping armor. His augmented 3 is awesome for mobility and paired with exodia might on a dagger is brutal. His augmented 4 makes him one mean SOB, but he is hard pressed to make the sortie cut without the opt-in. Like I said, I would simply like an easy and elegant way to opt-in or opt-out of his 4. My take on the animation is that it's fun to watch and gives my crippled up hands a break while I watch my guy be a badass. But I like the new way too. No reason not to make it accessible. I have a condition like MS - my precision is bad. Ash was somewhere between inaros and Mesa - survivability and DPS without all the annoying others from ember and banshee or limbo (or volt). I haven't successfully pulled off joining in since the change and I have been maining ash almost every day since I built him.

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Personally feel  the opt-in shouldn't have even been included.

The reason they hesitated to make it the way it is now a year ago with his BS rework is because it basically increased Ash's offensive capabilities.

(referring directly to the fact that you can still fight while the clones are doing BladeStorm).

Like Buzkyl touched on... Ash as a stealth frame has invisibility (which I know is not Invincibility, but it feels like a lot is being asked here).

Ash also has the highest health and armor of any stealth frame.

I agree if they're going to include the opt-in it should work efficiently (and correctly), I just don't agree that the opt-in should be there to begin with.

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I like the suggestion in the OP. Holding 4 to both opt in and opt out of the Bladestorm I think could be the cleanest way to let Ash participate in his cutscene-like gameplay without being locked out at any point in time. I agree that Ash doesn't specifically need more survivability, since he has stealth on demand, but I do think giving him more options and fluidity is always a good thing.

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I don't see Ash as a stealth frame. He's a light tank, Jack of many trades kind of frame (similar to Oberon in different ways). His invisibility can help but it's never going to replace loki or Ivara (or octavia) for stealth. It's by far his weakest ability in comparison to the augmented 1,3 and 4. Yes there's uses for it, but why would I take Ash on a spy mission when I have loki or Ivara? The invisibility adds to his DPS more than it does serve any meaningful stealth roll. And octavia can go invisible for longer than loki if built right but octavia isn't exactly a stealth frame either. He's somewhere between Valk and loki in my mind with a heavy focus on cutting things up. 

That said, those of you who say not allowing us to opt in on bladestorm, I solidly disagree. If this game is about crazy amounts of options why would you want to nerf ash further? So we can play all play the same frames using the same weapons and then make each choice we don't use completely irrelevant? Nope. I would say roll back that change rather than stick with it. 

 

As to the practice makes perfect bit - the degenerative condition I deal with makes that kind of moot. I will absolutely keep trying but I'm hoping for a fix. I've collected all the warframes in the game but vanilla vauban, vanilla Valk, nyx prime and mag prime. I worked hard getting to this point. Ash was one of the last frames I played that I hadn't tried. It was the first time in a LONG TIME that I was thrilled by a frame because the way his 4 worked before the change meant I could play frames other than Inaros, Valk, saryn, Ivara and banshee as mains. He gave me the ability to be more useful and made up for the deficiencies my body imposes (like not being able to aim worth a crap). 

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb nokturnihs:

I find it difficult to relate invisibility to survivability

Invisibility makes you pretty much untargetable by enemys except for "vague directions" single enemys you've "tapped" with melee/your body and enemys in a audible range when using unmuted guns are able to react to. Means that you're able to get leech some damage off of stray bullets, mines etc while beein in posession of survivability that is only rivaled by straight invincibility and solid percentual reductions.

Not to mention the strong and appearently permanent boost to your melee damage when beein invisible.

I highly recommend you to consider using it.

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