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The Unseen Danger


Axiom-ZA
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***Disclaimer***- This topic is aimed at presenting my personal views and opinions to the current state of Warframe and it's community. It is meant to perhaps shed light on the fears I have regarding topics that are currently under discussion and is by no means aimed at any particular person(s).

To whom it may concern,

I have been playing Warframe on and off for over 3 years as of now and have clocked 1200 hours and by no means see myself as a veteran player compared to most of my fellow tenno or content creators, but I've been through all of the bumps and hickups/ growth-pains, and I can honestly say that I don't regret 1 second of the journey. I love this game and the amazing effort that has been put into it. I've seen Warframe grow and evolve into something I, and perhaps most of my peers, couldn't even have dreamed of, and I was ecstatic to see the flood of new players discover this gem of a game in a time where they are hard to find. Unfortunately I have been seeing things lately that gives me knots in my stomach, and here's why...

Expansion and Influx of New players

With release of Plains of Eidolon, Warframe has effectively changed the way of how we saw the game and paved the way for amazing future development, something I'm personally really excited to see. With this there has been a massive influx of new players, and its amazing to see people just have pure unadulterated fun for once, that being said, Warframe might not be new player friendly as it doesn't hold your hand. You are left to figure stuff out for yourself, personally I liked this fact and discovering how stuff worked and what to do next, but I understand that not all people like this and that it can be really intimidating for some people. Up to now the warframe community has been amazing, where Veteran players see it as their duty and their privilege to help new players get up to speed. It gives us (well, me at least) a fuzzy feeling to see people find their "Ahhhh that's so cool" moments. With the ever expanding playerbase however I have seen that there are new players that don't subscribe to the standing culture and philosophy that the community has shared up to now, I am concerned that the negativity of those few bad apples is starting to have a negative "pay-forward effect" on the more "Veteran" players and even content creators.

Responsibility of Veteran Players and Content Creators

This is probably the main issue I'm getting at... I think all of this became most apparent for me with the 22.12.0 Shrine of the Eidolon patch that dropped a few days ago. I have heard a lot of feedback, negative and positive. Honestly I was angry and frustrated at first with the changes that took place, my beloved Ember and Banshee now feels like that ex girlfriend you still love, but can't because It won't ever feel the same again.... (I may have some emotional issues). Many of the changes forces players to change the way they use certain frames or load-outs, maby in a way that has put them off as they don't subscribe to the new play-style they now have to adopt. 

After a afternoon of pouting however the thought occurred to me, one that scared me... I have become part of the problem. As a "veteran" I have got used to how frames and weapons work, I've min-maxed the hell out of my load-outs to be effective at the task I designated them for... Want to farm relics? Banshee + Defense, Want to feel like hell-fire incarnate? Use World on fire Ember... But was this really best for the future of Warframe as a whole? After some soul searching, I have to say no.... Efficiency is not always fun... it gives rise to evils like AFK farming, and its gets boring after the so-many-ith round of ODD looking for mutagen samples (yes... It still triggers me).

So I get the anger of the changes that took place and the removal of the raids, which only a fraction of the player-base actually did... But I think it is wrong and irresponsible for veteran players and content creators to lose their minds and grab the nearest pitchfork because they are inconvenienced about critical design changes by DE... I have to admit, I am not a content creator and I have no Idea of the stress and the work it takes to make videos to and audience of thousands that may hate everything you say and do, I have great respect for people who do that for a living, but there is a responsibility to new players and to the future of Warframe to be objectively critical about what is happening and to give constructive feedback to DE, and not to give the "they changed everything, raids are gone, F*ck DE" comments I've been seeing by players and content creators. 

I hope this makes at least a bit of sense and that It is helpful in some way, feel free to tell me where I am wrong and if I might be a little to emotionally invested, this wasn't really an objective feed :D 

Yours Kindly,

Axiom-ZA

  

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4 hours ago, Axiom-ZA said:

So I get the anger of the changes that took place and the removal of the raids, which only a fraction of the player-base actually did... But I think it is wrong and irresponsible for veteran players and content creators to lose their minds and grab the nearest pitchfork because they are inconvenienced about critical design changes by DE... I have to admit, I am not a content creator and I have no Idea of the stress and the work it takes to make videos to and audience of thousands that may hate everything you say and do, I have great respect for people who do that for a living, but there is a responsibility to new players and to the future of Warframe to be objectively critical about what is happening and to give constructive feedback to DE, and not to give the "they changed everything, raids are gone, F*ck DE" comments I've been seeing by players and content creators. 

From what I've seen, many "veteran" players and raiders have been irritated with DE because:

1. There was no reason to remove raids, they were doing fine and were actually growing.

2. There were bugs for the gamemode, but the bugs were rarely fixed and everyone had learned to adapt to them and avoid them.

3. The arcane system and arcane market was fine as it was, and as you've probably seen, the arcane market does not exist anymore.

4. We haven't gotten any answers from DE. When we asked about it after the post, they told us they would talk about it on stream. We got 30 seconds from them and then they announced the re-release of Dark Sectors. The issue with this is that they basically said "We're removing your favorite part of the game, so have this instead."

5. All of the answers they gave were vague and didn't give us an exact reason as to why raids are being removed.

6. As shown in the past, "temporarily removed" means permanently, or 3 years later.

7. They told us that they want to make it better for "lower-level players," even though raids are end-game content.

8. They are removing their only end-game content. No, Sorties aren't end game.

9. They killed off an entire community of 15k people for DESIGN purposes that could easily be released alongside any other update.

10. They killed off an entire speed running community and essentially ruined any chance the game had at being a speedrun-able game.

11. TWB18 was set for later this year.

12. They never listened to the raiding community. Rebecca even said that after every update/hotfix there would be a comment asking about raid fixes. Did any of these reported issues ever get fixed? No.

I could probably list more reasons as to why "veterans" and content creators are losing their sh*t, so feel free to add on if I'm missing anything.

In my opinion, the "unseen danger" is DE themselves, not the player count or the community.


 

Edited by --Q--Captain
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7 minutes ago, Axiom-ZA said:

But I think it is wrong and irresponsible for veteran players and content creators to lose their minds and grab the nearest pitchfork because they are inconvenienced about critical design changes by DE...

While i agree with you in some parts this one catched my attention. I dont think that it is irresponsible. No player is in any way responsible for a game company. Players use what devs give them. DE has one bad habbit, they take years to change/rework/fix stuff and mostly ignore issues unless they become a serious issue to their new direction. Chroma for example wouldnt have recieved a change if the one shotting of Sentients wouldnt be an issue for the Devs. This is the point were players get angry because they got used to things how they are. It would give alot less uprising in the player base if DE would rework and fix stuff in a more regular constant manner.

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You make some interesting points, some of which I need to go check up on to be honest, thanks for the feedback! Just for clarity's sake, I didnt mean the player count is the issue, I meant that its the result the interaction of negative/rude players is having on the greater majority of the community. :) 

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1 minute ago, Axiom-ZA said:

You make some interesting points, some of which I need to go check up on to be honest, thanks for the feedback! Just for clarity's sake, I didnt mean the player count is the issue, I meant that its the result the interaction of negative/rude players is having on the greater majority of the community. :) 

All good, it just seems that there is a lot of false information being spread around the community in terms of raids and how people are feeling.

 

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Nice laid out OP. :) I will put this simply. Games need to change with the times, or they fade and die out. As Gamers , people should know this already and be used to it, " Overcome and adapt " to coin a phrase. It's not DE or other Companies that are at fault for trying to move forward, It's those players that are stuck in their rigid mindsets that have gotten far to used to how one system works, throw in something new and their brains come un wired.

This to me is akin to the  WoW Vanilla players screaming how great Vanilla was....it wasn't, it was bugged to hell and S#&$ty systems, no, it's Nostalgia, and the hate of change. Give it another 5 years, and the new players of today, will be doing what the Veterans are doing now. Change, get used to it.

Edited by Tarkerus
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14 minutes ago, --Q--Captain said:

1. There was no reason to remove raids, they were doing fine and were actually growing.

They were not doing fine, clearly. Growing at a rate to make glaciers seems speedy.

17 minutes ago, --Q--Captain said:

10. They killed off an entire speed running community and essentially ruined any chance the game had at being a speedrun-able game.

Not the speedrunners. The horror. The half-dozen people this would apply to are heartened by your acknowledgement.

15 minutes ago, --Q--Captain said:

11. TWB18 was set for later this year, and DE decided to remove raids before a charity event was going to happen.

This is gross. All I need to do is get a charity event going to guilt the devs into not touching a feature I like?

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5 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

All of this is anecdotal speculation and should be ignored. Really, most --Q-- members should be.

Not all what he said might be true and right. But the point that DE starts to ignore parts of the game for longer periods and simply abandones it is right.

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27 minutes ago, Xebov said:

While i agree with you in some parts this one catched my attention. I dont think that it is irresponsible. No player is in any way responsible for a game company. Players use what devs give them. DE has one bad habbit, they take years to change/rework/fix stuff and mostly ignore issues unless they become a serious issue to their new direction. Chroma for example wouldnt have recieved a change if the one shotting of Sentients wouldnt be an issue for the Devs. This is the point were players get angry because they got used to things how they are. It would give alot less uprising in the player base if DE would rework and fix stuff in a more regular constant manner.

Not sure if I'm reading a summary of Tactical's video here ( 

Warframe: Ember Nerf, Chroma Nerf? Banshee, Mag, Zephyr & Gara Changes

  ) or your personal opinion on the matter Xebov .

Edited by Spectre-8
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41 minutes ago, --Q--Captain said:

9. They killed off an entire community of 15k people for DESIGN purposes that could easily be released alongside any other update.

Are you going to say that all those 15k on the schoolbus are actively playing raids? I can guarantee you that most of those members have raided only once in order to get the cosmetics. Guaranteed.

4 minutes ago, --Q--Gelbug said:

This refers to the Warframe Raid School Bus community, which does indeed exist and is 15k members strong, and constantly growing. You can also see these handy server stats.

15k members. but ignoring the weekly activity rates in no way touching the 15k far from it. Not to mention voice activity. A lot of people in that number are probably not even playing warframe anymore.

------------------------

Look, I'm not saying that the trials community needs to be abandoned. but when I see that 15k number and saying that ALL those people are being let down is honestly a lie.

DE gave their reasons in the way that for them Trials are no longer sustainable. You ca ask for an honest answer but the answer has already been given. Do agree though that they should have prepared a proper response for the devstream but it is as it is.

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Almost every single update broke something within the Raids and almost every update had fixes for Raids yet they never improved in terms of quality, they were a prime example of a lost cause.  RSB has 15K+ members, that' barely a 1/10 of the WF Sub-Reddit population and they make up a minority compared to the actual number of Tenno across all platforms which is a number of at most 26 million(registered not concurrent), Raids were literally supported by a small minority that had a smaller population than Club Penguin before it became a meme (700K paid subscribers).

 

One could argue "Well Conclave and Archwing aren't popular, why don't they get removed?" which would be a great point if those two modes became unplayable with every major update and required several hotfixes correct.  I personally hope DE takes their time looking at Raids, they are a massive departure from the rest of the game and did not reflect any of the actual gameplay that makes WF special, it ignored movement, weapon/warframe variety and had an insane reliance on Meta making it more tedious than fun.

Edited by Orcot
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1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

They were not doing fine, clearly. Growing at a rate to make glaciers seems speedy.

Not the speedrunners. The horror. The half-dozen people this would apply to are heartened by your acknowledgement.

This is gross. All I need to do is get a charity event going to guilt the devs into not touching a feature I like?

Can you please state me statistics of growth and use facts instead of poor analogies? The Raid School Bus (which is not even the entire raid community) has been growing constantly thanks to r/Warframe advertisements as well as interest in the community. Many clans are Raids centered because Veterans have barely any content to stick around for, especially with things like Operation: I got the Plague Star. Content Creators such as @zopney as well as other Warframe streamers have helped people visually see them being done.

In literal sense, speed-runners mean almost nothing in this game. They are a minority, BUT they represent a kind of player within this game. While speed-runners only care about speed, many veterans, from event pushers to endurance runners feel like this minority that is overrun by the casuals. Is it wrong to voice an opinion when the majority of players that cannot due even sortie 3 content start to ruin something you enjoy playing? Conclave is a great example of this. I don't like conclave, but I certainly respect its community from their dedication and I know many players who still play it. Should we kill content because a casual majority don't make it worth Devs' time?

The example of charity is to display the passion of these players, not to sell out or pull specific cards out. I find it interesting that every time there is a topic that involves raids in some manner, we get people talking about them when they have no trial attempts at all.

Edited by --Q--Voltage
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hace 1 hora, --Q--Captain dijo:

3. The arcane system and arcane market was fine as it was, and as you've probably seen, the arcane market does not exist anymore.

Maybe, just maybe...this is why most of the veteran raiders are angry about the raid removal, they had total control of the arcane market (easy pl). Now that you can easily  farm arcanes with the new teralysts, they can't sell their arcanes at whatever price they want (Arcane energize, for example).

Disclaimer: I said most, MOST of the veterans, not all of them.

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Howdy all. My name is zopney, I am a Warframe partner that streams on Twitch, I am a moderator on speedrun.com/wf, I am the primary organizer for Tenno Without Borders, and I am a member of the dicht raiding clan (profile me on PC). I briefly read over all of your posts before making this statement, but this is what I currently have to say here. If you would like to discuss this with me further, join the speedrun Discord or DM me directly.

I am involving heavily with the raiding community, but my primary content is speedruns. To begin with, I find it ignorant to think that the raiding community wouldn't be left feeling abandoned or without a cause with the removal of trials. It's also very ignorant to assume that they are a tiny and insignificant part of the community. They get it, trials are being removed due to design issues. It's been accepted. Now the outcry is for involvement. The raiding community would like to help the developers outline what their vision of trials in the future should be that fits well with the game. They want to get more people involved, they want to make trials easier, they want to make it work for all types of players, they want to show a progression by introducing a cooperative type of gameplay to this game. Why would you not want to involve the people that have the most experience with a piece of content?

The problem with this involvement is fear of the unknown. When can we get started? How long will trials be gone? What is Digital Extremes's vision of the trials? Will it still be cooperative? The announcement and subsequent devstream only made more questions than answered them. The raiding community is just looking for answers and nobody is providing.

Here's a couple points that I feel I need to clear up.

  • Tenno Without Borders 2018 is temporarily on hold until the speedrunning community leadership has discussed the feasibility of hosting it this year. We will be convening for another meeting on Saturday, March 3, to discuss this event again. We are still in extremely early planning and have only solidified a date for the event to be held, nothing more. As of right now, the event is not canceled.
  • The speedrunning community is a small, niche community. However, it's not an insignificant amount. We have held within the top 20 spot on speedrun.com for over 6 months (partially due to the requirement of my glyph being to try a speedrun). Speedrunning is a niche hobby as well, but it's still a type of player that plays the game. One cannot discount that we do exist, just as much as we can't discount that endurance runners exist as well. If you like stats, here's our leaderboard stats to look at: https://www.speedrun.com/wf/gamestats. We get it, we're small, but so is the entirety of the speedrunning community.
  • Charity events are NEVER meant to make a statement. We don't host Tenno Without Borders because we want to make a statement to Digital Extremes to keep trials, we host the event to showcase the speedrunning activity for entertainment. Whereas other people would use this content to gain monetary value from it (myself included), we wanted to use it to show off our skills and to show off what horrors go outside of our comfort zones in our cushy first-world lifestyles. We use this event to support the people trying to make it better for them. We are a minority trying to fund a group of individuals that are helping the less fortunate in the world. This isn't a "just because" event, it's to help people wounded or sick in third-world countries.

I feel like I covered everything I needed to, but I'm also bad at expressing my thoughts in text format. Message me on Discord if you want to talk on voice comms, since I hate text so much.

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2 hours ago, Axiom-ZA said:

You make some interesting points, some of which I need to go check up on to be honest, thanks for the feedback! Just for clarity's sake, I didnt mean the player count is the issue, I meant that its the result the interaction of negative/rude players is having on the greater majority of the community. :) 

When I came back late November 2017

All I see in the forums was "nerf ember" and the OP was always rude on those post.

Now Ember got nerf cause they couldn't handle not being able to kill a thing on a low level speed run alert :(

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2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is gross. All I need to do is get a charity event going to guilt the devs into not touching a feature I like?

this is gross, that you'd accuse the people who organised TBW18 of this, when TBW18 has been planned for 4 weeks now while the thread from Megan is barely a week old and partners had no forewarning of it's content. People in DE were aware of the event, and there was even a segment with Megan on TBW17. Proof. So to accuse people of this sort of behaviour without having any of the facts is gross, to say the least. 

Edited by -dicht.Goko-
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il y a 12 minutes, -dicht.Goko- a dit :

this is gross, that you'd accuse the people who organised TBW18 of this, when TBW18 has been planned for 4 weeks now while the thread from Megan is barely a week old and partners had no forewarning of it's content. People in DE were aware of the event, and there was even a segment with Megan on TBW17. So to accuse people of this sort of behaviour without having any of the facts is gross, to say the least. 

I'm sure this phrase was used under a sarcastic pretense as the Tenno quoted further above used it in an argument.

As zopney mentioned above, charity event are not to be used in an argument, as such, a sarcastic approach seems more likely to hit where it should.

I often find myself in a disagreement with Peter, but this time it's a well used form of sarcasm to convey a message.
Peter has not accused TBW18 of doing anything.

SideNote : Charity events that are not hosted by DE themselves shouldn't have an impact on the company's development.
Sure it was a mean move to not warn the organizer, but whether the charity was organized before or after the notice is not an argument to be used unless it was changed under a contract agreement ( Which is unlikely to be the case ).

Edited by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX
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6 minutes ago, -dicht.Goko- said:

this is gross, that you'd accuse the people who organised TBW18 of this, when TBW18 has been planned for 4 weeks now while the thread from Megan is barely a week old and partners had no forewarning of it's content. People in DE were aware of the event, and there was even a segment with Megan on TBW17. Proof. So to accuse people of this sort of behaviour without having any of the facts is gross, to say the least. 

Let's take a look at what was said.

2 hours ago, --Q--Captain said:

11. TWB18 was set for later this year, and DE decided to remove raids before a charity event was going to happen.

No mention of previous events, or any kind of link to somewhere where this would be explained. Shockingly, I, and probably most of the people who play this game, have no knowledge of this event. It is mentioned nowhere on DE's end. Looking at the speedrun website, there appears to be no official endorsement by DE.

Given what was said, they were using a charity event to do what, here? Should DE have decided to keep a feature in longer because of a charity event? Do these people, with no official backing seemingly, deserve advance notice of game changes? Does DE now have to hold off on changes because someone, somewhere, used the game as a means to raise money?

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2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Let's take a look at what was said.

No mention of previous events, or any kind of link to somewhere where this would be explained. Shockingly, I, and probably most of the people who play this game, have no knowledge of this event. It is mentioned nowhere on DE's end. Looking at the speedrun website, there appears to be no official endorsement by DE.

 

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Just now, --Q--Captain said:

 

Then edit your original post or eliminate the point entirely. You clearly used it as some sort of cudgel against DE removing Trials and even one of the organizers has stepped in. I have 0 enmity towards the event but towards those who would use charity as a weapon. Y'all should know better.

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1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

You clearly used it as some sort of cudgel against DE removing Trials and even one of the organizers has stepped in. I have 0 enmity towards the event but towards those who would use charity as a weapon. Y'all should know better.

We aren't using the event as a weapon. We're using it as a way to say that the raid community exists and here's evidence it does exist. TWB is a charity event but it's also a time where raiders/speedrunners can gather and support a good cause.

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2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Mo mention of previous events, or any kind of link to somewhere where this would be explained. Shockingly, I, and probably most of the people who play this game, have no knowledge of this event. It is mentioned nowhere on DE's end. Looking at the speedrun website, there appears to be no official endorsement by DE.

Because promotion for the event hadn't taken place yet. The event last year was on July 28th with a similar date in mind for this year's event. Promotion was meant to have taken place nearer the day, which explains why you didn't hear about it. As for there being no official endorsement by DE...I guess Megan being on TBW17 and Taylor and Aidan being involved coordinate it wasn't official enough. You not knowing about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

5 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Given what was said, they were using a charity event to do what, here? Should DE have decided to keep a feature in longer because of a charity event? Do these people, with no official backing seemingly, deserve advance notice of game changes? Does DE now have to hold off on changes because someone, somewhere, used the game as a means to raise money?

I've covered the bit about official backing. DE don't need to hold off on changes, but as the saying goes "to be forewarned is to be forearmed".

On a slightly tangential note, I notice you take several...shall we say..."intellectual risks". In other words, you jump to conclusions with very little or no supporting evidence behind them. I'd advise against it...you are of course free to disregard my advice. Some of the stuff about official backing etc was wrong, which is fine, but you couldn't have known about it, so I'm not entirely sure why you'd jump t conclusions on something you had no knowledge of. But that's just me. 

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

I'm sure this phrase was used under a sarcastic pretense as the Tenno quoted further above used it in an argument.

As zopney mentioned above, charity event are not to be used in an argument, as such, a sarcastic approach seems more likely to hit where it should.

I often find myself in a disagreement with Peter, but this time it's a well used form of sarcasm to convey a message.
Peter has not accused TBW18 of doing anything.

SideNote : Charity events that are not hosted by DE themselves shouldn't have an impact on the company's development.
Sure it was a mean move to not warn the organizer, but whether the charity was organized before or after the notice is not an argument to be used unless it was changed under a contract agreement ( Which is unlikely to be the case ).

Apparently, it isn't sarcasm:

3 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Then edit your original post or eliminate the point entirely. You clearly used it as some sort of cudgel against DE removing Trials and even one of the organizers has stepped in. I have 0 enmity towards the event but towards those who would use charity as a weapon. Y'all should know better.

 

10 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

No mention of previous events, or any kind of link to somewhere where this would be explained. Shockingly, I, and probably most of the people who play this game, have no knowledge of this event. It is mentioned nowhere on DE's end. Looking at the speedrun website, there appears to be no official endorsement by DE.

Given what was said, they were using a charity event to do what, here? Should DE have decided to keep a feature in longer because of a charity event? Do these people, with no official backing seemingly, deserve advance notice of game changes? Does DE now have to hold off on changes because someone, somewhere, used the game as a means to raise money?

 

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4 minutes ago, -dicht.Goko- said:

Because promotion for the event hadn't taken place yet. The event last year was on July 28th with a similar date in mind for this year's event. Promotion was meant to have taken place nearer the day, which explains why you didn't hear about it. As for there being no official endorsement by DE...I guess Megan being on TBW17 and Taylor and Aidan being involved coordinate it wasn't official enough. You not knowing about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

So an event which was not officially set should influence how a game is developed? Does this event mean Trials shouldn't have been removed?

They are people who work at DE. Was this as DE employees or as well known people in the community?

An event dedicated to speedruns of a game feature that wasn't widely used. It existing doesn't change that fact and doesn't really mean anything in the wider discussion of Trials being removed.

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Just now, peterc3 said:

So an event which was not officially set should influence how a game is developed? Does this event mean Trials shouldn't have been removed?

 

No, as I said, forewarning would have gone a long way for the organisers of the event.

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

They are people who work at DE. Was this as DE employees or as well known people in the community?

 

As DE employees. They participated in the event in an official capacity to espouse the event and those working backstage helped in an official capacity.

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

An event dedicated to speedruns of a game feature that wasn't widely used. It existing doesn't change that fact and doesn't really mean anything in the wider discussion of Trials being removed.

No, but we digress.

The matter we're discussing is that you made the (frankly gross) allegation that the organisers of the event were using it to throw mud at DE's decision to remove trials from the game...with no evidence of any kind to back up your claim.

Now, you have been disproven on several (practically all) of your assumptions. So with all due respect, I must ask that you rescind your accusation which is slanderous and (as proven) clearly untrue.

Have some decency. 

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