"Ember is useless now!!! D:" Actually no, she isn't.

[Maka.Bones]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

It still caps at 42m/21m. That is with a full range build. So you cannot do that, because you won’t have Narrow Minded. So it will cost a million pads. I am getting something like 30m/15m with Overextend and Narrow Minded (other mods too). For a squishy frame, 15m CC is not really useful in sorties. 

Yeah, the energy drain really kills her x.x... I keep running into that problem with all of the different builds I was trying out. Best band-aid I found was equilibrium (essentially increasing the amount of energy motes dropped). It's still not enough though, and there's barely any space for modding ember as well... Usually equilibrium requires something else that's essential for a solid build. 

[Fallen_Echo]

13 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

x'D "Workout routines with banshee" lmfao you're hilarious 

Well atleast zephyr is good now, i mean she doesnt even need to get out of the liset to make enemies spin.

Before we derail this thread too much i hope they do something with ember to make her worth using in all content not just in speedfarming things.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Fallen_Echo

[TheLexiConArtist]

See, people who say things like this:

24 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

I think Ember is stronger than before.

I mean, WoF got +100% dps... for a Warframe which is essentialy designed all around the thought of dealing damage doubeling her main attacks dps is a pretty big thing.

Anyone who uses Ember as a damagedealer, as she was intented to be, should like the idea of the damage increase.

Are the exact kind of tunnel-visioned people that caused this atrocity to begin with.

 

Double base damage on WoF? Oh great! Too bad we're now paying for that power strength to compensate for the range scaling down into Toes On Fire.

And if we compensate that lost range with lessened power strength statistic (courtesy Overextended) she's losing out on more:

• Fire proc rate on WoF
• Damage and (augmented) buff stats on Fireball
• Damage Multiplier on Accelerant
• Damage on Fire Blast

Sure doesn't seem as grand now does it?

 

Meanwhile, Equinox takes over the passive cutting down of paper mobs, Mirages with Ignises take over the "bullet jump through the fissure mission for auto-clearing" and literally nothing beneficial for the already only mediocre Warframe that paid the ultimate price.

[Borg1611]

It's not really about being "useless," she's just not spectacular at anything. She's advertised as a DPS frame that can completely replace weapons, but her damage scaling is garbage and is especially useless against high level armored targets. Damage wise she was just used as a large area low level clearing frame. She's now worse at that without being significantly better at anything else.

As a CC frame she was never the best option and is now worse. 

If they want her to live up to her name she needs mechanics that allow her to essentially be a fire mage, dealing fiery mayhem at all levels. I think a heat mechanic to replace her current passive would fit her theme well and could help give her better damage scaling. It could also give her energy regen baseline so she can cast a lot more without crutches like Focus, arcanes or high efficiency. A DPS caster frame should have built in energy mechanics IMO. 

Maybe the napalm effect from Fireball could melt/reduce armor? Being able to deal with armor without a group or specific weapons would help her live up to her damage dealing theme in more situations. The charge also needs to be a lot faster.

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Toes On Fire.

x'D I can't even.... I can't even read the rest of what you wrote, because I'm laughing so hard... x'D

[Shaw1996]

I tested her against 5 lvl 120 Corrupted Heavy Gunner for Melee and I had to use Fire blast and Accelerant to prevent myself from dying. WOF is not enough for her to Survive anymore. Against 5 lvl 120 Bombards, it's the same story. She's the same frame still in the lower levels but in Sorties, she requires a slight different playstyle. Especially in Energy reduction ones, you have to switch WOF on and off or you would lose too much energy.

[Darkduprey]

il y a 27 minutes, Walkampf a dit :

I tihnk this highlights a very big underlying problem.

People always claim to be tired of farming stuff and thus they look for the way with the least amount of effort needed to reach the goal.

But those people don't realise that they ruin the game for themself.

Mindless drone is a very fitting term. There are tons and tons of people min/maxing every aspect of a (or actually of ANY) game in order to get the most loot with as little effort as possible.

I think those people are, for the lack of a better word, broken.

They are so focused on some arbitrary numbers to the point where those numbers suddenly become less important than actually playing a game...

THIS!

I personnally never have the sensation to be stucked in any sort of grind will playing Warframe.

Honnestly, I can't even understand why people feel THAT of a need to min/max anything in this particular game.

I'm playing the frames and the weapons I take pleasure to play with, and i've almost never been in a situation where I was forced to spam a mission to do something. I always have all the necessary ressources to build anything I want to build and I level up my stuff mostly by taking them in anything I do unless it's a mission that require my "full power", i.e I take them for alerts, easy/medium fissures, syndicat mission, lore mission, etc...

And guess what?

Well, My "leveling speed" is clearly enough to satisfy me.

I'm surely not the best player around here, but i'm currently MR14, all star map cleared, all Trials cleared a long time ago, and Sorties cleared every day without problem.

I still have to try the Eidolon Hunting, but by now, I can't understand why the hell peoples are speaking about "speeding up grinding". I personnaly rather take 3 hours to farm something with fun gameplay than 2 hours with boring BS like the old Ember WoF.

And unlike some peoples like to claim, the amount of necessary grind in Warframe is definitely NOT high. Try something like Path of Exile or even Diablo, then came back to speak about what a real grind is.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Darkduprey

[krc473]

11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah, the energy drain really kills her x.x...

I had a look at my build. The drain is not really an issue: 0.93 energy/sec (even when doubled that is only 1.9, so around 330 seconds of WoF before recast, assuming no energy pickups).

 

The range however, I was being optimistic on. I am actually only getting 28.5m/14.25m. So, less than 1m more than whips. This is terrible. I could stretch it to 33m/16.5m, but this would have to sacrifice one of the other mods (or add 2 forma and an exilus). The range on the first 5 seconds is fine, it’s just halving the range takes it too low.

Edited February 11, 2018 by krc473

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, Shaw1996 said:

I tested her against 5 lvl 120 Corrupted Heavy Gunner for Melee and I had to use Fire blast and Accelerant to prevent myself from dying. WOF is not enough for her to Survive anymore. Against 5 lvl 120 Bombards, it's the same story. She's the same frame still in the lower levels but in Sorties, she requires a slight different playstyle. Especially in Energy reduction ones, you have to switch WOF on and off or you would lose too much energy.

I'm guessing this test you ran was on the simulacrum? Imagine in a real mission, getting overwhelmed with enemies... Her WoF was her main source of defense, because of those hordes. Her fireblast/accelerant just aren't efficient enough to spam for CC/damage alone, neither is her fireball. Honestly her fireball's damage is laughable at high lvls. If we're supposed to swich WoF on, and off, then they should also compensate for that by making the other abilities cheaper to cast!

 As it stands, her other abilities aren't efficient, or good enough to replace her WoF for endgame. She's even worse at surviving, or crowd controlling, and has even more energy consumption issues. They also leave her as a sitting target, making her vulnerable to more damage/easier to target. 

The reason WoF was so strong for ember, wasn't because it was "afk mode".... it's because we could also move around while having the firequake CC active. That combination was incredibly strong. 

[PatternistSlave]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

she's still really strong. Though she kinda sucks a little more for high-lvl content

Well then she's not really strong.  She wasn't on par with other frames before the nerf and is now far worse.  I can understand the range nerf.  It caused issues.  But she needs something meaningful in return and the energy nerf was unnecessary and excessive.

[Maka.Bones]

8 minutes ago, Darkduprey said:

THIS!

I personnally never have the sensation to be stucked in any sort of grind will playing Warframe.

Honnestly, I can't ever understand why people feel THAT of a need to min/max anything in this particular game.

I'm playing the frames and the weapons I take pleasure to play with, and i've almost never been in a situation where I was forced to spam a mission to do something. I always have all the necessary ressources to build anything I want to build and I level up my stuff mostly by taking them in anything I do unless it's a mission that require my "full power", i.e I take them for alerts, easy/medium fissures, syndicat mission, lore mission, etc...

And guess what?

Well, My "leveling speed" is clearly enough to satisfy me.

I'm surely not the best player around here, but i'm currently MR14, all star map cleared, all Trials cleared a long time ago, and Sorties cleared every day without problem.

I still have to try the Eidolon Hunting, but by now, I can't understand why the hell peoples are speaking about "speeding up grinding". I personnaly rather take 3 hours to farm something with fun gameplay than 2 hours with boring BS like the old Ember WoF.

And unlike some peoples like to claim, the amount of necessary grind in Warframe is definitely NOT high. Try something like Path of Exile or even Diablo, then came back to speak about what a real grind is.

I'm really happy for you.... What does that have to do with ember? lol

Btw as far as people who enjoy to minmax: It's not about what we "gain"....It's more that there's a kid inside of me trying to see what ridiculous shennanigans I can pull off next lol. It's bout seeing if something is possible, and how far it can be taken. Curiosity/exploration/strategizing/building.... all those also contribute to the fun of the game. So yes, min-maxing does directly contribute to the fun of the gameplay. 

[Maka.Bones]

4 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Well then she's not really strong.  She wasn't on par with other frames before the nerf and is now far worse.  I can understand the range nerf.  It caused issues.  But she needs something meaningful in return and the energy nerf was unnecessary and excessive.

I'm definitely not disagreeing with you in that sense. I keep trying to post rework ideas, and trying to get people to post their own ideas as well. If you had read my entire post, you'd see that at the end I said "I with DE gave ember a proper rework, rather than tweaking her existing abilities"

[Darkduprey]

il y a 3 minutes, Maka.Bones a dit :

I'm really happy for you.... What does that have to do with ember? lol

Btw as far as people who enjoy to minmax: It's not about what we "gain"....It's more that there's a kid inside of me trying to see what ridiculous shennanigans I can pull off next lol. It's bout seeing if something is possible, and how far it can be taken. Curiosity/exploration/strategizing/building.... all those also contribute to the fun of the game. So yes, min-maxing does directly contribute to the fun of the gameplay. 

Well, there is two links with your topic: First of all, I was answering to someone i've quoted. ^^

And second, peoples are "crying" about Ember nerf because it affect the way they can min/max their farming efficiency with her, so speaking about min/maxing in general is directly related to the topic.

However, I perfectly agree with you: It contribute to the fun of the gameplay, perfectly.

But it does when you do it to satisfy your curiosity and use your skill to get the best possible result and be proud of it, not when you do it because you feel forced to do it in order to have more loots.

Can you see the difference? ;)

Edited February 11, 2018 by Darkduprey

[Maka.Bones]

54 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

I think Ember is stronger than before.

I mean, WoF got +100% dps... for a Warframe which is essentialy designed all around the thought of dealing damage doubeling her main attacks dps is a pretty big thing.

Anyone who uses Ember as a damagedealer, as she was intented to be, should like the idea of the damage increase.

The problem ist that there is a small yet very vocal group of people (because it's the internet... there always is...) who did some mindbending and forced Ember into some sort of 'support' role, which she was not meant for, but someone at DE greenlit an augment, which directly goes against Embers purpose of dealing damage.

Well, and there are those who wanted her for AFK farming.

I think her change was definitly a step in the right direction, as i already argued with somebody else ealier today.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

#unashamedselfpromotion

 

She's supposed to be a crowd-control frame, that can also kill enemies with fire. The problem is that she really sucked for CC... so people built her just to straight-up kill enemies with WoF, because the best form of CC is death. 

[Shaw1996]

5 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm guessing this test you ran was on the simulacrum? Imagine in a real mission, getting overwhelmed with enemies... Her WoF was her main source of defense, because of those hordes. Her fireblast/accelerant just aren't efficient enough to spam for CC/damage alone, neither is her fireball. Honestly her fireball's damage is laughable at high lvls. If we're supposed to swich WoF on, and off, then they should also compensate for that by making the other abilities cheaper to cast!

 As it stands, her other abilities aren't efficient, or good enough to replace her WoF for endgame. She's even worse at surviving, or crowd controlling, and has even more energy consumption issues. They also leave her as a sitting target, making her vulnerable to more damage/easier to target. 

The reason WoF was so strong for ember, wasn't because it was "afk mode".... it's because we could also move around while having the firequake CC active. That combination was incredibly strong. 

I did do the test in the Simulacrum. The amount of damage 5 of those Enemies is probably close or higher than the enemies in MOT which worries me because it's pretty easy to run out of energy if you spam her other abilities with WOF activated and of course, a Ember without Energy is a dead Ember. I do agree with her other abilities being cheaper. Since this game is so fast paced, you would find a horde of enemies and if they do MOT levels of damage, her Survivability would fall off. I do wish her 1 could be better still.

[Maka.Bones]

5 minutes ago, Darkduprey said:

Can you see the difference? ;)

Ty for explaining. +1 

Yeah, I do and I agree w/ you. Though I also relate to people who don't have much time to play the game, and feel overwhelmed/forced to speed run everything, so they don't lose out on their nitain alerts, or potato alerts, and they can go back to focus on intex/void relic farms. (Not one of my issues personally, as I took my time completing the star map with my excalibro. I'll agree, that the game is much more fun when it's played to be enjoyed. I just mean that I understand how others feel, when they don't want to feel left-behind by their friends)

[Walkampf]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Maka.Bones:

She's supposed to be a crowd-control frame, that can also kill enemies with fire. The problem is that she really sucked for CC... so people built her just to straight-up kill enemies with WoF, because the best form of CC is death. 

This is just flavour text.

Frost is also credited for "lethal attacks"

When was the last time you saw a pure ability-damage-setup for frost?

Or Volt. His flavour text even outright describes him as an alternative to gunplay.

Also, Embers flavour text was never changed since she was initially introduced, was it?

However, if you look at Embers abilities, basically everything resolves around the idea of damage.

And even considering that text, damage is still 1st place, with CC being an afterthought.

[PatternistSlave]

3 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm definitely not disagreeing with you in that sense. I keep trying to post rework ideas, and trying to get people to post their own ideas as well. If you had read my entire post, you'd see that at the end I said "I with DE gave ember a proper rework, rather than tweaking her existing abilities"

Just because I chose not to directly address every aspect of your post doesn't mean I didn't read it.  But if you want my opinion so badly, no I don't think she needs extensive changes.  She has a distinct identity, playstyle, and is relatively fun.  It's her numbers I have issue with.  Her 1 for example.  I see no reason it shouldn't do actual damage.  The buff to her ring of fire seemed like a step in the right direction, but having to shoot through it when it only reaches waist high is a huge issue and I'm not seeing significant numbers.  If they want her 4 to be a nuke it doesn't make sense for it to be a toggle firstly and secondly it needs actual damage that scales.  Personally I liked her 4 being lackluster CC that traded power for convenience.  It suited a toggled ability and offered a unique playstyle.

[Maka.Bones]

24 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Frost is also credited for "lethal attacks"

When was the last time you saw a pure ability-damage-setup for frost?

Or Volt. His flavour text even outright describes him as an alternative to gunplay.

Lol true. Thinking about that sounds funny, and a little ridiculous. 

[NathanielD]

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

This is just flavour text.

Frost is also credited for "lethal attacks"

When was the last time you saw a pure ability-damage-setup for frost?

Or Volt. His flavour text even outright describes him as an alternative to gunplay.

Also, Embers flavour text was never changed since she was initially introduced, was it?

However, if you look at Embers abilities, basically everything resolves around the idea of damage.

And even considering that text, damage is still 1st place, with CC being an afterthought.

ALL of her abilities sets enemies on fire (which staggers/puts them on the ground) or straight stuns them and none of that was removed/changed with this rework.

How is CC an afterthought?

 

And if you think that 1, 2 or even 5k of Heat damage suddenly makes a warframe a "damage dealer" you need to run her through high level content more.

Also most if not all of the best damage dealing frames in the game that are the current meta have some form of survivability abilities/aspect.

 

Ember had one and it was WoF range + Firequake. Now she has nothing and last night testing her out in the sortie I could barely keep myself alive, much less all my teammates on the survival, a type of sortie mission which I used to have fun and success using her on even if ospreys were already immune to WoF before, now it's just utter garbage.

 

These changes means nothing at all for those that abused her abilities to either ruin the fun of lowbies, wreck fissures or afk farm. It did however made a mediocre-at-best, Sortie warframe, into a complete no-no.

 

Well I got the message DE, thanks for relegating Ember to pretty much 5% of the game's content for me, guess it's time to move on to Mirage or Limbo.

Edited February 11, 2018 by NathanielD

[Altre]

I tested Ember with 279 power strength and she took approximately 10 seconds to kill a level 60 bombard that was within melee distance of her. With a max range build, she had half the distance of CC with a little bit of a damage boost. That damage boost means nothing because it'll only be able to kill rather low level parts of the star chart and her CC, again, has been cut in half. This change has no benefit. I love DE and usually find a way to rationalize changes for the better, but this is not one that I can do that with. She used to have a purpose in higher level gameplay, now she doesn't. Her damage increase won't do enough to kill enemies that sit on her toes (as stated above, it's certainly true, and you won't likely be sitting still for 10 seconds...) at level 60 with her ULTIMATE ability. If you build for CC, it'll be far less effective.

Again, I'm on the DE train usually. Not this time. I stated a good alternative in another thread that lets her keep her range, but lose damage over time and the further away from Ember they are, while gaining damage over time near the center. So her AOE range would remain static like it used to centered around her, while damage fluxes towards the center. That'd be appropriate to the theme of her being the source of the flame, therefore being the hottest point while burning out (of energy, literally). She can still use CC then.

Not sure what to do with the other abilities. Fire just isn't affective against much.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Took this from another post and it doesn't seem to look great.

[ZodiacShinryu]

4 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Actually no, I didn't miss that "crucial" point; I think you missed the point of my picture.

My picture was for the meme ember build, that runs through low lvl missions with just WoF. Not for high lvl gameplay. 

But isn't that "crucial point" that if DE made these changes to specifically discourage lower level passiveness in favor of Ember than the changes completely missed the mark. Not only has it for in most situations not alleviated the low level sweeps but it has done next to nothing for her in the higher levels however it has made another playstyle way more risky. A frame that falls off after 30-50 IS NOT in a good place and your hesitation of her playstyle speaks volumes of it. Of the current primes (simply because I have invested the most in those frames in particular) she is the clear bottom performer. Of all the frames, I would say she is definitely near the bottom.

All that being said, the real problem is that people hold tightly to WoF. Ember can currently (has already been) function in higher level content with (Flash) Accelerant (and the newer function of Fire Blast also helping) and Fire weaponry. People that focus on WoF for damage (which DE didn't help at all) would get more out of Accelerant niche however increasing the drain on WoF only pressures less liberal use of her other skills (at worst causing uneven battle flow). There is no way they are going to strike a good balance on a power that is designed to deal passive damage (and CC) while also allowing Ember full use of her arsenal.

Personally, I would roll Fire Blast and World on Fire together and add a new power. Maybe defensive (aka similar to overheat) or maybe supportive (we could jump into the phoenix theme) perhaps a way to ramp up her damage even more... volcanically.

[Shockwave-]

5 hours ago, krc473 said:

It still caps at 42m/21m. That is with a full range build. So you cannot do that, because you won’t have Narrow Minded. So it will cost a million pads. I am getting something like 30m/15m with Overextend and Narrow Minded (other mods too). For a squishy frame, 15m CC is not really useful in sorties. 

Why would you ever use narrow minded. On the new Ember I'm using Overextended, Stretch, and Cunning Drift, but no narrow minded. Duration doesn't do much for WOF.

[krc473]

3 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Why would you ever use narrow minded. On the new Ember I'm using Overextended, Stretch, and Cunning Drift, but no narrow minded. Duration doesn't do much for WOF.

I have not updated my build in quite a long time. WoF is not the only thing I use the build for.

- duration affects energy drain on WoF.