Arcane Guardian overtuned?

[-skimmer-]

For those who havent noticed yet, now full set of Arcane Guardian gives flat 600 armor.

That means now every frame can reach passive defenses of a steel fibered Valkyr without wasting a single mod slot for it. For strong and desirable meta frame like trinity thats 80x increase in her survivability, while for dedicated tank frames like Valkyr its mere 3x (actually much less compared to trinity, given how damage reduction is calculated)

I understand that Arcane Guardian was on the other spectrum of usability than it is now, being nearly useless to low armor frames. However, isnt flat 1200 armor too much? Whats the point of tankier frames without any utility abilites like Valkyr or Inaros now if their ability to soak damage is only marginally stronger now than everyones else?

Wouldnt it be better to maybe combine flat armor + % from base armor to make it attractive arcane for low armor frames, while keeping armored frames atleast somewhat relevant? Or maybe should the tanky frames get more utility in their abilities so they can fit into a certain roles in team compositions?

Discuss.

[DrBorris]

If you run 2x Guardian you don't have Energize, Grace, Aegis, or one of the other extremely powerful Arcanes (seriously, a lot of them are good now).

 

Will I be putting Guardian + Grace (Double Guardian is going to be overkill IMO) on some traditionally squishy frames? Yes, but that is going to be a trade off in other ways. I will lose out on massive damage buffs and insane energy regen. The thing that balances Arcanes is that you only have two slots, if Guardian was not this good no one would ever use it because the other options are just better. You can't look at Guardian in a vacuum, you have to look at it with respect to its competition and the system it is implemented in. You only have two slots for an extremely competitive range of buffs, that is what makes Arcanes balanced.

[Voltage]

You want to nerf Guardian because it is actually useful? Oy Vey

[JohnKable]

the chance is 20% to get 600 armor.

Key is 20%. even with 2 of the same arcane, glass frames will still be glass frames. even assuming it always procs the benefit is just limited to a buff that actually does something in low level range, where you shouldnt need it.

The use is for minmaxing tank builds, that can not rely on it, but when it procs its a good addition to already tanky frames that presumibly run steel fiber already. IMHO not even close to be too strong, as stated before you have only 2 slots and probably on most frames you can have better and more reliable buffs

and again, squishy frames wont become tanks because they gain 600 armor. those frames will still die in a couple of hits.

Edited February 11, 2018 by JohnKable

[owendawgx]

Consider this:

Not everyone has 2 full sets of Guardian from running raids everyday (I believe the statistic a couple years ago was that less than 2% of the player base did raids), and the current Eidolon fights are now easily the hardest content we have in game, especially when you consider the terrible lure AI, hitboxes and so many effects and UI elements that the it almost hurts to look at. So yea. Whether it's now or after Arcanes are moved to Eidolons, the amount of investment it takes to get to what you're describing cannot be understated. If you think it's overpowered, then that's coming from the perspective of actually having them, which a really small portion of the community actually does. Also, they're RNG triggered. At the very least I don't think any nerfs should come to arcanes until we see how easy it is to acquire them when they're moved.

[-skimmer-]

Just now, DrBorris said:

If you run 2x Guardian you don't have Energize, Grace, Aegis, or one of the other extremely powerful Arcanes (seriously, a lot of them are good now).

 

Will I be putting Guardian + Grace (Double Guardian is going to be overkill IMO) on some traditionally squishy frames? Yes, but that is going to be a trade off in other ways. I will lose out on massive damage buffs and insane energy regen. The thing that balances Arcanes is that you only have two slots, if Guardian was not this good no one would ever use it because the other options are just better. You can't look at Guardian in a vacuum, you have to look at it with respect to its competition and the system it is implemented in. You only have two slots for an extremely competitive range of buffs, that is what makes Arcanes balanced.

I am not looking at them in a vaccum. You have tons of ways to heal your hitpoints at any given time. If your pet heals you to full every time it hits something, or you have a sentinel with a medi-ray, or you can just have furis to heal anytime, or a healing return on a gunblade. Those 1200 armor gives more than enough time for either. Now its available on frames that can pile damage reduction after damage reduction or just straight up heal on press of a button on top of all that.

You dont need energy arcanes if you can just equip Rage mod and face tank whatever for energy, you dont need Aegis if your health is so much better now...

11 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

You want to nerf Guardian because it is actually useful? Oy Vey

I want to nerf it because my favorite tank frames fell irredeemably into uselessnes, having no longer no unique traits any other frame in the game could provide. Adjusting stats on a singular (arguably overpowered) item seems way easier than argue for a total rework of several Warframes whose only unique strength lied in being able to take a hit or two better than everyone else.

 

15 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

the chance is 20% to get 600 armor.

Key is 20%. even with 2 of the same arcane, glass frames will still be glass frames. even assuming it always procs the benefit is just limited to a buff that actually does something in low level range, where you shouldnt need it.

The use is for minmaxing tank builds, that can not rely on it, but when it procs its a good addition to already tanky frames that presumibly run steel fiber already. IMHO not even close to be too strong, as stated before you have only 2 slots and probably on most frames you can have better and more reliable buffs

It procs even on hitting shields, lot of the low armor frames have atleast one damage reduction ability they can use to cushion the initial hits before the arcanes procs and lot of enemies do a lot of trash damage several times in a row, endlessly refreshing the arcanes. I am using them, I know how of often they are procked and how effective they are.

 

18 minutes ago, owendawgx said:

Consider this:

Not everyone has 2 full sets of Guardian from running raids everyday (I believe the statistic a couple years ago was that less than 2% of the player base did raids), and the current Eidolon fights are now easily the hardest content we have in game, especially when you consider the terrible lure AI, hitboxes and so many effects and UI elements that the it almost hurts to look at. So yea. Whether it's now or after Arcanes are moved to Eidolons, the amount of investment it takes to get to what you're describing cannot be understated. If you think it's overpowered, then that's coming from the perspective of actually having them, which a really small portion of the community actually does. Also, they're RNG triggered. At the very least I don't think any nerfs should come to arcanes until we see how easy it is to acquire them when they're moved.

That is a valid point. I mean, they were considered a trash arcanes and easy to obtain but I doubt many people actually have them. However given how they will be dropping from eidolons now (and probably keep their common drop status) I would guess they will oversaturate the market shortly after...

[JohnKable]

Quote

It procs even on hitting shields, lot of the low armor frames have atleast one damage reduction ability they can use to cushion the initial hits before the arcanes procs and lot of enemies do a lot of trash damage several times in a row, endlessly refreshing the arcanes. I am using them, I know how of often they are procked and how effective they are.

you know how effective they are? if you value usefulness based on EHP something can give you then yes, reworked guardian is pretty cool.
I cant think at a single caster frame that i can fit a single health/shield mod on, because its by far overclassed by range/power/duration etc.
No way a Nova can become tanky when could actually matter (lvl 150+). you do a much better job maximizig her powers and learn to avoid all gunfire.
and really, when enemies become hard, they oneshot you. so 0 chance to having your precious arcane proc.

But if you feel like caster frames are the new tanks now, only slotting double guardian... well enjoy it. Seriously tested it and its barely useful under lvl80, and at those levels i die only when i get a phone call, someones rings at the door or my mouse stops working.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Do you understand that casters and tanks can have high ehp. Most popular casters have a damage resistance buff that grants things like 95% damage reduction.

 

The Guardian sets are for frames who don't have those casts, Excalibur has cc but doesn't have casts for example.

 

So no your tanks are really not

useless if anything they're better

 

TL;Dr let's not be charlettons when DE buffs something  get over yourself

[Fishyflakes]

well see, the thing is playing Trinity is way more boring than playing Valkyr
/endthread

[(PSN)JonathGariepy]

Il y a 2 heures, -skimmer- a dit :

Whats the point of tankier frames without any utility abilites like Valkyr or Inaros now if their ability to soak damage is only marginally stronger now than everyones else?

Funny thing is, Arcane Guardian is not even better on Inaros than it used to be. Inaros is a surprisingly low base armor warframe for a tank.

But no I don't think it's over tuned, if you run 2x Arcane Guardian set, you're missing out on some pretty sweet alternatives like Energize, Grace, Aegis and I would be surprised if they don't buff more arcanes in the future. Obviously some warframe will get more mileage out of the new Guardian than other, but it was also the case for every arcanes before the recent changes and it will always be the case, I don't think it invalidate Valkyr in any way, she's still a hell of a tough melee warframe with or without Guardian.

The weaks will mourn their Guardian Valkyr, the strongs will adapt and move on.

[Seinerweisen]

4 hours ago, -skimmer- said:

 

I want to nerf it because my favorite tank frames fell irredeemably into uselessnes, having no longer no unique traits any other frame in the game could provide. Adjusting stats on a singular (arguably overpowered) item seems way easier than argue for a total rework of several Warframes whose only unique strength lied in being able to take a hit or two better than everyone else.

 

That seems like a poor reason. Just because you now consider your tank frames useless does not mean the rest of us should have to suffer. There are 10s of thousands of Warframe players. asking for a change because you do not like something seems hella selfish. Just choose not to use the arcanes if it bothers you so much.

[rudman88]

Weird people are growing in this community,

they curse and boo and buffs

and cheer for nerfs eventhough they claim they use it and its OP.

Why is tanks useless when they also can use it ?

it make them even mroe tanky. 800 upon guardian and mod

Edited February 12, 2018 by rudman88
correct wrong info

[Vesiga]

if its a +600 armor boost, then valk gets +50% of her total armor added. 10% less than that 60% it had, but so? +50% for her is still a lot. 
but then frames that have 125 armor now have 725. That's a great deal to helping a good 75% of frames survive. 
It's not OP, it just lets squishy frames be used in further end game things, it lowers the frame restriction.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Would be nice to use mine for any other frame except for one in particular but I have my other arcane taking top priority so I'm not distiling them/adding them back to a cosmetic every other mode. 

[-Bing-]

What was the point of valkyr and inaros before?

[(PSN)tissot555]

On 2/11/2018 at 3:54 PM, -skimmer- said:

For those who havent noticed yet, now full set of Arcane Guardian gives flat 600 armor.

That means now every frame can reach passive defenses of a steel fibered Valkyr without wasting a single mod slot for it. For strong and desirable meta frame like trinity thats 80x increase in her survivability, while for dedicated tank frames like Valkyr its mere 3x (actually much less compared to trinity, given how damage reduction is calculated)

I understand that Arcane Guardian was on the other spectrum of usability than it is now, being nearly useless to low armor frames. However, isnt flat 1200 armor too much? Whats the point of tankier frames without any utility abilites like Valkyr or Inaros now if their ability to soak damage is only marginally stronger now than everyones else?

Wouldnt it be better to maybe combine flat armor + % from base armor to make it attractive arcane for low armor frames, while keeping armored frames atleast somewhat relevant? Or maybe should the tanky frames get more utility in their abilities so they can fit into a certain roles in team compositions?

Discuss.

Has this not come to console yet? My arcane proc still says 60%

[-Trey-]

1200 armor too much ? naaah it is fineeee

Nothing to look at here, move on.

[(PSN)tissot555]

On 2/11/2018 at 4:31 PM, -skimmer- said:

I am not looking at them in a vaccum. You have tons of ways to heal your hitpoints at any given time. If your pet heals you to full every time it hits something, or you have a sentinel with a medi-ray, or you can just have furis to heal anytime, or a healing return on a gunblade. Those 1200 armor gives more than enough time for either. Now its available on frames that can pile damage reduction after damage reduction or just straight up heal on press of a button on top of all that.

You dont need energy arcanes if you can just equip Rage mod and face tank whatever for energy, you dont need Aegis if your health is so much better now...

I want to nerf it because my favorite tank frames fell irredeemably into uselessnes, having no longer no unique traits any other frame in the game could provide. Adjusting stats on a singular (arguably overpowered) item seems way easier than argue for a total rework of several Warframes whose only unique strength lied in being able to take a hit or two better than everyone else.

 

It procs even on hitting shields, lot of the low armor frames have atleast one damage reduction ability they can use to cushion the initial hits before the arcanes procs and lot of enemies do a lot of trash damage several times in a row, endlessly refreshing the arcanes. I am using them, I know how of often they are procked and how effective they are.

 

That is a valid point. I mean, they were considered a trash arcanes and easy to obtain but I doubt many people actually have them. However given how they will be dropping from eidolons now (and probably keep their common drop status) I would guess they will oversaturate the market shortly after...

Here is what I don't understand about people like you dude. You say you want to nerf it because it made your favorite tanky frames useless. How? How did it make your favorite tanky frames useless, huh? Oh yea, it didn't. Your favorite frames are still your favorite frames. Absolutely NOTHING has changed with them. This is a PVE game. Why the bleep are people crying for nerfs. Seriously, why? Are you that insecure that you can't get on a game you love and just enjoy it without wondering if another player is as tanky as you???  What the bleep is wrong with people? I really don't want to live in this world sometimes.

[--Q--Ascended-Seraphim]

On 12/02/2018 at 4:54 AM, -skimmer- said:

For those who havent noticed yet, now full set of Arcane Guardian gives flat 600 armor.

That means now every frame can reach passive defenses of a steel fibered Valkyr without wasting a single mod slot for it. For strong and desirable meta frame like trinity thats 80x increase in her survivability, while for dedicated tank frames like Valkyr its mere 3x (actually much less compared to trinity, given how damage reduction is calculated)

I understand that Arcane Guardian was on the other spectrum of usability than it is now, being nearly useless to low armor frames. However, isnt flat 1200 armor too much? Whats the point of tankier frames without any utility abilites like Valkyr or Inaros now if their ability to soak damage is only marginally stronger now than everyones else?

Wouldnt it be better to maybe combine flat armor + % from base armor to make it attractive arcane for low armor frames, while keeping armored frames atleast somewhat relevant? Or maybe should the tanky frames get more utility in their abilities so they can fit into a certain roles in team compositions?

Discuss.

Your Valkyr has the option of equipping other Arcanes like Energize etc.

Improving Arcane Guardian gives frames the option to expand their play style and does not invalidate the tank frames.

Your argument is as good as calling for a nerf of Primed Flow because with that mod a tank frame's energy pool is comparable to a caster frame.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

1 hour ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

Here is what I don't understand about people like you dude. You say you want to nerf it because it made your favorite tanky frames useless. How? How did it make your favorite tanky frames useless, huh? Oh yea, it didn't. Your favorite frames are still your favorite frames. Absolutely NOTHING has changed with them. This is a PVE game. Why the bleep are people crying for nerfs. Seriously, why? Are you that insecure that you can't get on a game you love and just enjoy it without wondering if another player is as tanky as you???  What the bleep is wrong with people? I really don't want to live in this world sometimes.

Warframes are class based. If there are better tanks than the tanks then there's no reason to play them or even get newer frames because they'll just all be reskins of each other anyways.

Then again they could be ramping up arcanes to be on par with endgame content which goes up to crazy numbers anyways. Most people haven't even touched those kinda numbers so it would appear to the majority that they're trivializing their own content.

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Brorelia]

On 2/11/2018 at 3:21 PM, Fishyflakes said:

well see, the thing is playing Trinity is way more boring than playing Valkyr
/endthread

You are clearly playing trinity wrong.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

15 minutes ago, Brorelia said:

You are clearly playing trinity wrong.

So what exactly is engaging about one ability that gives enemies MORE health, another ability that just gives you health but quicker, another ability that makes guys flash and gives you your energy back (bonus effect is annoying pm's ordering you to use it), then her last ability which all she needs to do is just stand there?

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Tyrian3k]

On 11.2.2018 at 9:54 PM, -skimmer- said:

For strong and desirable meta frame like trinity thats 80x increase in her survivability

80x? What are you smoking? That would imply a 98.75% damage reduction. 80x the armor does not mean 80x the survivability. In reality, her damage reduction goes from ~5% to about 67% with one guardian active or 80% with two active, which is about ~3x/5x, not 80x and on top of that it only works during the times that the buff is actually active and only counts for the health part, not her shields. With a blessing Trinity, shields are actually quite a significant portion of her EHP, since the damage reductions from Blessing and Link actually apply to it. Considering that, Trinity is already one of the toughes frames to begin with.

Trinity with a maxed Vitality and Redirection has 1110 Shields and 740 health and with Link and Blessing active, she has a 93.75% (15/16) damage reduction, meaning 16x the EHP for a total of 1850*16=29600, so with the little bit of armor she has, she gets to about 30k total EHP without needing any armor buffs.

Compare that to Valkyr Prime with 300% power strength, maxed Steel Fiber, maxed Armored Agility and maxed Gladiator Aegis and two Arcane Guardians active:

700 armor x (1+1.1(SF)+0.45(AA)+0.45(GA)+1.5(WC))+1200(2xAG) = 4350 Armor which is a 93.55% damage reduction, which, with a maxed Vitality, brings her EHP to 740*15.5+150=11620.

As you can see, Trinity is already tougher to kill than Valkyr no matter if you use Arcane Guardian or not. Hell, she's probably one of the toughes frames to kill overall at this point.

Anyway, regardless of all that, there are Arcanes that are better for some frames than others. That's pretty much intended, just like some mods are better on some frames than others.

 

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Warframes are class based. If there are better tanks than the tanks then there's no reason to play them or even get newer frames because they'll just all be reskins of each other anyways.

Then again they could be ramping up arcanes to be on par with endgame content which goes up to crazy numbers anyways. Most people haven't even touched those kinda numbers so it would appear to the majority that they're trivializing their own content.

Maybe those tanks could use a buff to their health then? But considering what happened to Chroma recently, the tendency is more in the opposite direction.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

5 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

Maybe those tanks could use a buff to their health then? But considering what happened to Chroma recently, the tendency is more in the opposite direction.

Chroma is a strange case. He's half caster with spectral scream and effigy, and half tank with two armor abilities vex armor and elemental ward. Though going by how people talk about him no one uses the caster part. The changes could be an effort to refocus.

[Zeiss17]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Chroma is a strange case. He's half caster with spectral scream and effigy, and half tank with two armor abilities vex armor and elemental ward. Though going by how people talk about him no one uses the caster part. The changes could be an effort to refocus.

Being playing Chroma since release. People don't use caster abilities because they are hot garbage. I would understand the nerf if those abilities were good. 1 is stupid, 4 is useless energy dump. Either they rework those abilities or outright change them people will keep only using VexWard.