Arcane Guardian overtuned?

[JohnKable]

27 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Hey arcane guardian actually makes squisher frames actually fun to play. NERF IT!

i dont really know why people complain. It just makes glass waframes slightly more resistant in mid level content.
In high level content it matters close to zero. maybe people complain about the tank role that never existed in this game, its all about surviving no matter how you achieve that. and any gimmick frame could already do that better than any tank

[(PSN)tissot555]

8 hours ago, -Trey- said:

1200 armor too much ? naaah it is fineeee

Nothing to look at here, move on.

has this update come to consoles?

[Fishyflakes]

9 hours ago, Brorelia said:

You are clearly playing trinity wrong.

?

[(PSN)Croewe]

3 hours ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

has this update come to consoles?

No.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

The problem for squishier frames is that the arcane wont be active 80% of the times they are hit, which means that in any content where it would matter, they will already be dead. 

Does it help? Yes. 

Can you rely on it to survive? No

[Death_Master_Shadow]

For non-tanky frame 90% chance you are dead BEFORE guardian even activates.(It's for levels where you even need guardian, for low lvl you simply don't need it)

So what's the point to lay bleeding on the floor with extra armor?

 

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

On 2/11/2018 at 2:54 PM, -skimmer- said:

For those who havent noticed yet, now full set of Arcane Guardian gives flat 600 armor.

That means now every frame can reach passive defenses of a steel fibered Valkyr

 

Valkyr with Steel Fiber would have 1260 armor.

[Hypernaut1]

The only issue with the new arcane system is that there is no real reason to use less popular utility arcanes now. Before, you could throw anything you had on extra helmets, and could only double up on specific frames. 

Now you can throw double whatever on anything, with little room for niche arcanes. There become like mods

[Threa]

People really don't like having nice things in this game it seems. This arcane allows me to push the squishier frames that I enjoy playing into higher level content. Not by much, but enough to make it noticeable, more enjoyable and doable. Please leave it as is. 

[(PSN)lhbuch]

The chance to proc is still too low in higher levels where squishier frames will get killed. 

But it opens nice alternatives for mid level where you can still take some shots and pray for the arcane to proc

[cookieknife]

On 2/11/2018 at 4:31 PM, -skimmer- said:

I am not looking at them in a vaccum. You have tons of ways to heal your hitpoints at any given time. If your pet heals you to full every time it hits something, or you have a sentinel with a medi-ray, or you can just have furis to heal anytime, or a healing return on a gunblade. Those 1200 armor gives more than enough time for either. Now its available on frames that can pile damage reduction after damage reduction or just straight up heal on press of a button on top of all that.

You dont need energy arcanes if you can just equip Rage mod and face tank whatever for energy, you dont need Aegis if your health is so much better now...

I want to nerf it because my favorite tank frames fell irredeemably into uselessnes, having no longer no unique traits any other frame in the game could provide. Adjusting stats on a singular (arguably overpowered) item seems way easier than argue for a total rework of several Warframes whose only unique strength lied in being able to take a hit or two better than everyone else.

 

It procs even on hitting shields, lot of the low armor frames have atleast one damage reduction ability they can use to cushion the initial hits before the arcanes procs and lot of enemies do a lot of trash damage several times in a row, endlessly refreshing the arcanes. I am using them, I know how of often they are procked and how effective they are.

 

That is a valid point. I mean, they were considered a trash arcanes and easy to obtain but I doubt many people actually have them. However given how they will be dropping from eidolons now (and probably keep their common drop status) I would guess they will oversaturate the market shortly after...

You’re playing low level content if 600 makes that much of a difference

[Jarriaga]

On 2/11/2018 at 4:54 PM, -skimmer- said:

For those who havent noticed yet, now full set of Arcane Guardian gives flat 600 armor.

That means now every frame can reach passive defenses of a steel fibered Valkyr without wasting a single mod slot for it. For strong and desirable meta frame like trinity thats 80x increase in her survivability, while for dedicated tank frames like Valkyr its mere 3x (actually much less compared to trinity, given how damage reduction is calculated)

I understand that Arcane Guardian was on the other spectrum of usability than it is now, being nearly useless to low armor frames. However, isnt flat 1200 armor too much? Whats the point of tankier frames without any utility abilites like Valkyr or Inaros now if their ability to soak damage is only marginally stronger now than everyones else?

Wouldnt it be better to maybe combine flat armor + % from base armor to make it attractive arcane for low armor frames, while keeping armored frames atleast somewhat relevant? Or maybe should the tanky frames get more utility in their abilities so they can fit into a certain roles in team compositions?

Discuss.

Am I missing something here? I was under the impressions repeated Arcanes don't stack and run their own trigger chance independently, replacing one another on each trigger. That means 2x Arcane Guardian is 20% +600 armor 2x per hit, not 40% +1200 1x per hit.

Was this changed?

Edited March 13, 2018 by Jarriaga

[Plasma_Panda]

gee, it's almost like we should be rewarded adequately for time invested into the arcane grind or something

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Am I missing something here? I was under the impressions repeated Arcanes don't stack and run their own trigger chance independently, replacing one another on each trigger. That means 2x Arcane Guardian is 20% +600 armor 2x per hit, not 40% +1200 1x per hit.

Was this changed?

They work independently, but have never replaced each other. 

It's still separate 20% chances for +600 armour, if both proc then it stacks to 1200 armour. 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Am I missing something here? I was under the impressions repeated Arcanes don't stack and run their own trigger chance independently, replacing one another on each trigger. That means 2x Arcane Guardian is 20% +600 armor 2x per hit, not 40% +1200 1x per hit.

Was this changed?

I think it becomes a 30% chance to proc at least 1 arcane guardian due to math

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

They work independently, but have never replaced each other. 

It's still separate 20% chances for +600 armour, if both proc then it stacks to 1200 armour. 

Thanks. Wiki needs an entire overhaul of the article then. It states they replace one another, and in case of a lower-ranking version of the same Arcane is equipped, it can replace the effect of the higher-level one if it's activated later.

From wiki:

Quote

Neither the duration nor the effects of the Arcane stack. Two Arcanes of an identical nature can be equipped together, multiplicatively stacking their trigger chance, but not their duration, range, or effect. In other words, the effect of equipping two identical Arcanes would be equivalent to equipping a single Arcane of that type, except with (1-(1-N)^2) percent chance to trigger, where N is the single Arcane's chance to trigger. As an example, equipping two identical Arcanes, each with 40% chance to trigger upon their activation condition, would result in (1-(1-0.4)^2), or 64% chance to trigger. Should two Arcanes of the same type but of different rank be equipped, the activation of one Arcane immediately removes the remaining duration of the other and replaces its effect, regardless of whichever Arcane is higher ranked. For this reason, it is not recommended to "stack" one type of Arcane of differing rank, as the lower-ranked Arcane's effect may override the more powerful variation.

 

[DeMonkey]

8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Thanks. Wiki needs an entire overhaul of the article then. It states they replace one another, and in case of a lower-ranking version of the same Arcane is equipped, it can replace the effect of the higher-level one if it's activated later.

From wiki:

 

I don't know what idiot typed that up given its easily testable.

Take an unmodded Rhino into the simulacrum with a single Guardian, wait for it to proc and then look at the abilities page, Iron Skin is listed as having 1,500 more health than previously which matches the standard armour multiplier on it, 600*2.5.

Take 2 arcane guardians, let yourself get shot a bunch (the ui doesn't show 2 procs) and you'll see Iron Skins value increase by 3,000, again following the armour formula. 1,200*2.5=3,000.

I have tested this myself and I can absolutely confirm that the effect stacks.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't know what idiot typed that up given its easily testable.

Take an unmodded Rhino into the simulacrum with a single Guardian, wait for it to proc and then look at the abilities page, Iron Skin is listed as having 1,500 more health than previously which matches the standard armour multiplier on it, 600*2.5.

Take 2 arcane guardians, let yourself get shot a bunch (the ui doesn't show 2 procs) and you'll see Iron Skins value increase by 3,000, again following the armour formula. 1,200*2.5=3,000.

I have tested this myself and I can absolutely confirm that the effect stacks.

Thank you! That's awesome!

My Valkyr won't see a huge jump in survival chances, but my Mirage definitely will with 2x Rank 4 Guardians.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I’m reading about how additive armor on squishier Warframes doesn’t do much since the proc rate is too low and you’re still most likely going to get one-shotted because of it. Here, I’m just thinking in my head:

 

Energy loss from Quick Thinking is based on the armor value of the Warframe. Sure, there is a stagger involved with the mod, but unless you’re cold proc’d like a certain high-level Eximus Corpus Capture armed with a Glaxion, you have enough time to gtfo and recover your bearings. This is made especially effective if you are also armed with an Arcane Energize set.

Edited March 13, 2018 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[Arkaneux]

Well, the shame of being selfish was too much, he refuses to reply on his own topic, wow....

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Arkaneux

[KubrowTamer]

I just skipped to the bottom to reply so I don't know if somebody already said this but:

You do realize that you can always put Guardian ON your tank frames as well. It's not like your Rhino or Valkyr can't get the same buff and will continue to be just as superior in armor. My 2k armor, 1k health Valkyr never dies even before I added my max rank Guardian to it.

[AzureTerra]

All i see is O.M.G Mah Tanky frames are not speshal anymore pls nerf. 

Your Tanky frames are still as good as they ever were, since you know they have that Tankyness all the time not on a 20% chance for a duration. 

[(XBOX)SupremeMorph]

On 11/02/2018 at 9:07 PM, JohnKable said:

the chance is 20% to get 600 armor.

20% every time you're damaged. With a duration of 20 seconds. As someone who uses aegis, which has a 6% chance, I can safely say that 20% is guaranteed constant armor

That being said, I think guardian is fine where it is. As it stands, a lot of arcanes are quite powerful, especially in certain builds (such as aegis with fast deflection). They're also locked behind the hardest bosses in the game currently, and were previously locked behind raids. So yeah, I think they should be powerful

[Carnage2K4]

On 3/14/2018 at 2:01 AM, DeMonkey said:

They work independently, but have never replaced each other. 

It's still separate 20% chances for +600 armour, if both proc then it stacks to 1200 armour. 

I've been using 2 sets for about 8 months, (well before the changes) I'v never seen 2 PROC, only ever a higher refresh rate of the timer, my experience seems to indicate that it's 2x chance to get the PROC, not 1200 Armour as seem to be assumed here.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Carnage2K4

[-skimmer-]

1 hour ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I've been using 2 sets for about 8 months, (well before the changes) I'v never seen 2 PROC, only ever a higher refresh rate of the timer, my experience seems to indicate that it's 2x chance to get the PROC, not 1200 Armour as seem to be assumed here.

UI is a liar. It does actually add 1200 armor.