Equipping/Storing slot Polarities, rather than Overwriting them?

[(PSN)Carnatus]

So it occured to me today, after putting a 6th Forma on my beloved Nidus, that polarizing your Warframes is both beneficial and...well, not.

I'm sure we all know this by now, but just to review: a polarity is a symbol, apparently representing "a way of the Tenno". Adding a polarity to your Warframe's upgrade slots is a good way to fit more mods into them. Sort of like this.


Certain rare mods, like primed and corrupted mods, take about 11, 14, and even 16 capacity. Certain regular mods, like Vitality, Steel Fiber and Redirection also take up a lot of space. So you make the space. Vazarin and Madurai are definitely good polarities to have on any Warframe. If I sort my mods by drain, those are always the doozies up front.

But what happens when you go a little overboard? When you add just one more Madurai, or one more Naramon, when that one more is one too many? Well, then you're stuck. You kinda HAVE to use a mod of that polarity now, even if the mod you have in mind isn't that type.

What happens when you jam a mod in a polarity it doesn't fit in? It takes up more space, instead of less. Talk about a blessing and a curse!


So what do you do? You forma it again. You WASTE a forma, undoing what you did. No added benefit. You just "fix" a mistake. You wanna change your build again because you've discovered a new mod that'd work even better? A new mod that's yet another polarity, if not the one you just changed from? Forma again. Not very flexible is it?

Again, I'm sure we're all well aware of this and have likely just accepted it, but hear me out: I have a solution!

What if polarities could be "equipped"? What if you could actually "store" a polarity, remove it, and re-equip it, like it was an inventory item? Polarizing would add a polarity to your current pool of polarities.

So for example, let's say you have a Vazarin Aura Polarity. You use a Forma to change it to a Naramon polarity. You won't be able to move it around, because it's an Aura polarity, but you could swap it between Vazarin, Naramon, and nothing. Same for Exilus mods. The normal slots, you could place, swap or remove polarities freely.

Eh? Eh? Good idea right? No? Okay. I'll put it out there anyway.

[Maka.Bones]

I was thinking of making a post like this under "general feedback"

[(PSN)Carnatus]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

I was thinking of making a post like this under "general feedback"

Really, we both had this idea today? Or you had it earlier and just hadn't gotten around to making the post?

- or are you just trying to point out that it would probably be more appropriate in another subsection?

Might be right. This pertains to weapons and sentinels and companions too, not just Warframes. Hmm...

Hi, can a mod move this to general feedback? Please and thank you in advance.

[peterc3]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

You forma it again. You WASTE a forma, undoing what you did. No added benefit. You just "fix" a mistake. You wanna change your build again because you've discovered a new mod that'd work even better? A new mod that's yet another polarity, if not the one you just changed from? Forma again. Not very flexible is it?

The added benefit is making a matching polarity mod take up half capacity. You use Forma to specialize a build, allow you to slot higher power mods. You explicitly lose flexibility. This is not an oversight. This isn't a bug. This is by design.

[Maka.Bones]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Really, we both had this idea today? Or you had it earlier and just hadn't gotten around to making the post?

- or are you just trying to point out that it would probably be more appropriate in another subsection?

Might be right. This pertains to weapons and sentinels and companions too, not just Warframes. Hmm...

Hi, can a mod move this to general feedback? Please and thank you in advance.

I had this idea on friday, but hadn't posted it yet because I've been making a lot of posts lately lol.

I thought that it would be an awesome end-game reward, if they added something that allowed us to forma multiple polarities into a single mod slot. Maybe an eidolon reward, or another kind of reward in a different type of end-game content?

 

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Fishyflakes]

I like this idea alot!

Would help me use Multiple Riven mods on a single weapon ♥

Edited February 11, 2018 by Fishyflakes

[(PSN)Carnatus]

16 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

The added benefit is making a matching polarity mod take up half capacity. You use Forma to specialize a build, allow you to slot higher power mods. You explicitly lose flexibility.

I just got through unnecessarily explaining the current system in it's entirety.

Yet you still felt the need to explain this to me?

16 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I had this idea on friday, but hadn't posted it yet because I've been making a lot of posts lately lol.

I thought that it would be an awesome end-game reward, if they added something that allowed us to forma multiple polarities into a single mod slot. Maybe an eidolon reward, or another kind of reward in a different type of end-game content?

Feels a bit much. Just polarizing it should be enough. But cool that we both have similar ideas.

16 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This is not an oversight. This isn't a bug. This is by design.

Speaking of what things are:

this is the feedback section.
this is where people go to suggest improvements/changes/additions to the game's design.
this is a thread in which I propose what I personally believe to be a better, more flexible design.

Does this look like a bug report thread to you? Honest question!~ Cuz' it ain't.

15 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

I like this idea a lot!

Would help me use Multiple Riven mods on a single weapon ♥

Is that not already possible? I only have two Rivens right now, and they're both for different weapons, so I don't really know about all that and therefore can't really offer any feedback on it.

Edited February 11, 2018 by (PS4)Carnatus
typo

[Fishyflakes]

Just now, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Is that not already possible? I only have two Rivens right now, and they're both for different weapons, so I don't really know about all that and therefore can't really offer any feedback on it.

Different Riven mods have different Polarities.
I'm sure you know that they also have 18 capacity at max rank, so you get where I'm going with this.

[chainchompguy3]

A decent idea, and completely worth considering.

 

But I'd also like to bring up another way of looking at it:

 

Mod points are meant to limit us. Pretty dang obvious: you can't equip more mods than you have mod points for.

Forma seem to be a bit of a glitch in this system, though: it allows for equipping mods you usually wouldn't be able to, increasing your power. Sometimes, by quite a bit.

So perhaps it is reasonable that this system is double-edged:

You can exceed your normal limits, but at the cost of almost locking you into a certain setup.

Trade adaptability for raw power. So on, and so forth.

 

That philosophy doesn't mean it has to be as punishing as it is now, though.

Re-polarizing could have smaller costs to make it happen.

Maybe removing a polarity is completely free and instant: only adding a polarity takes levels and forma to do.

Maybe make the act of changing a polarity have half-cost or something.

 

Just a thought.

[(PSN)Carnatus]

7 hours ago, Fishyflakes said:

Different Riven mods have different Polarities.
I'm sure you know that they also have 18 capacity at max rank, so you get where I'm going with this.

Yes. But there's nothing preventing you from doing it as is with the current system, unless you put the wrong polarities on your weapon.

In which case yes, being able to more freely change the polarities would help.

Edit: Oh, you mean like, switching between different Rivens, not running multiple Rivens at once. Is that it?

7 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

A decent idea, and completely worth considering.

 

But I'd also like to bring up another way of looking at it:

 

Mod points are meant to limit us. Pretty dang obvious: you can't equip more mods than you have mod points for.

Forma seem to be a bit of a glitch in this system, though: it allows for equipping mods you usually wouldn't be able to, increasing your power. Sometimes, by quite a bit.

So perhaps it is reasonable that this system is double-edged:

You can exceed your normal limits, but at the cost of almost locking you into a certain setup.

Trade adaptability for raw power. So on, and so forth.

 

That philosophy doesn't mean it has to be as punishing as it is now, though.

Re-polarizing could have smaller costs to make it happen.

Maybe removing a polarity is completely free and instant: only adding a polarity takes levels and forma to do.

Maybe make the act of changing a polarity have half-cost or something.

 

Just a thought.

The more you use a Warframe, the more resources and effort you put into it (Orokin Reactors, Forma, Affinity) the more you'll get out of it. You literally have to "start over" with the Warframe everytime you polarize it, leveling it up all over again. As a result, it's more capable. You're better with it. It's not that odd. If anything it makes perfect sense.

No matter what, you're limited, if not by capacity than simply by the number of slots. There's only, what, 8? Not counting Aura and Exilus. It seems like a lot, sure, until you actually get to work on making a good build! 

There's already enough limiters, already enough double-edges, without adaptability taking a hit too. Imagine a Warframe having even 10+ formas sunk into it, and for what? Nothing. Nothing is gained. No bonus capacity, no extra stats, nothing.

Just effort that's been undone, and time and resources that have gone to waste.


Edit: forgot to respond to your other suggestion.


A reduced cost for changing a polarity, or no cost for removing one is better than nothing, but what's half a forma? How do you reduce the cost, when the cost is an item not a number? A less rare item?

I hate it when I have to edit posts. They turn out so unsightly, with the "edited (rough amount of time that's past) by (username)"

I mean, just look at it!

Edited February 12, 2018 by (PS4)Carnatus
updated

[chainchompguy3]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

The more you use a Warframe, the more resources and effort you put into it (Orokin Reactors, Forma, Affinity) the more you'll get out of it. You literally have to "start over" with the Warframe everytime you polarize it, leveling it up all over again. As a result, it's more capable. You're better with it. It's not that odd. If anything it makes perfect sense.

No matter what, you're limited, if not by capacity than simply by the number of slots. There's only, what, 8? Not counting Forma and Exilus. It seems like a lot, sure, until you actually get to work on making a good build! 

There's already enough limiters, already enough double-edges, without adaptability taking a hit too. Imagine a Warframe having even 10+ formas sunk into it, and for what? Nothing. Nothing is gained. No bonus capacity, no extra stats, nothing.

Just effort that's been undone, and time and resources that have gone to waste.


A reduced cost for changing a polarity, or no cost for removing one is better than nothing, but what's half a forma? How do you reduce the cost, when the cost is an item not a number? A less rare item?

It really just comes down to a difference of opinion, then.

Consider the alternative:

• Forma-ing a slot makes it fluid. It's polarity can be changed at any time, for no/very little cost. No work will ever be "undone", because once a slot is forma'd, that slot is able to change polarity to whatever you like. You don't have to re-forma that slot again.

Suddenly, it's just another Orokin Reactor. You polarize all the slots without care, and then you're done. Just like how an Orokin-Reactor-ed frame is objectively better than one that isn't, a forma'd slot is objectively better than one that isn't. You can just change the polarity to fit any mod, at any time.

Polarize all 10 slots, and you're done. You have no further goals with that warframe. It is at it's peak. It's just another form of level-up, with a max-level-cap.

 

 

There's nothing necessarily wrong with thinking it should be like that. Some people like getting to a point of reaching a level cap.

 

 

But in my opinion, having Forma be something that is NOT objectively better to do is a much more engaging system.

Forma-ing becomes a meaningful choice:

Do you forma the slot, and risk the potential future of needing to change it back?

Or do you not forma the slot, and risk not being able to fit all the mods you currently want?

Neither option is wrong, neither option is right. It's up to the player's own preferences and decision making.

 

 

Neither Opinion is wrong, either.

But you seemed to be advocating your view as "Very obviously and objectively right", when it's truly a subjective matter.

 

Just wanted to suggest you see it from the other viewpoint.

[(PSN)Carnatus]

18 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

It really just comes down to a difference of opinion, then.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with thinking it should be like that. Some people like getting to a point of reaching a level cap.

But in my opinion, having Forma be something that is NOT objectively better to do is a much more engaging system.

Forma-ing becomes a meaningful choice:

Do you forma the slot, and risk the potential future of needing to change it back?

Or do you not forma the slot, and risk not being able to fit all the mods you currently want?

Even doing it this way, sooner or later you'll find the ideal build, with just the right polarities in the right amounts and empty slots in just the right places to allow for versatility, and that'll be it. So one way or another, you'll hit the metaphorical cap, at which point any further effort is just busywork.

My proposed way just cuts the bull.

Edit:

Edited February 12, 2018 by (PS4)Carnatus
typo, uck

[chainchompguy3]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Even doing it this way, sooner or later you'll find the ideal build, with just the right polarities in the right amounts and empty slots in just the right places to allow for versatility, and that'll be it. So one way or another, you'll hit the metaphorical cap, at which point any further effort is just busywork.

Except the ideal build is ever-changing, depending buffs, nerfs, mods available, the state of the meta, and your own ever-changing personal preferences.

• You can suddenly decide you'd much rather sacrifice the extra 15% power strength of Power Drift for Handspring, because getting knocked down is starting to annoy you.
• The meta can shift back to Crit-focused, and suddenly all those status/hybrid-builds need tweaking.
• They can release a new mod, and suddenly you're scrambling to make room for it.

 

You can always willingly decide to force your build to remain constant, but then there's very little the system can do to affect your decisions, now is there?

 

Again, it's just a matter of opinion.

You can view Modding as a climb to be the very best, and view forma as a means to allow for another layer of leveling up.

I can view modding as a system of constant change for my weapons, to allow for my constantly changing playstyle, and forma as an additional layer of complexity and interest.

And we can both be right.

[(PSN)Carnatus]

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

Except the ideal build is ever-changing, depending buffs, nerfs, mods available, the state of the meta, and your own ever-changing personal preferences.

• You can suddenly decide you'd much rather sacrifice the extra 15% power strength of Power Drift for Handspring, because getting knocked down is starting to annoy you.
• The meta can shift back to Crit-focused, and suddenly all those status/hybrid-builds need tweaking.
• They can release a new mod, and suddenly you're scrambling to make room for it.

 

You can always willingly decide to force your build to remain constant, but then there's very little the system can do to affect your decisions, now is there?

 

Again, it's just a matter of opinion.

You can view Modding as a climb to be the very best, and view forma as a means to allow for another layer of leveling up.

I can view modding as a system of constant change for my weapons, to allow for my constantly changing playstyle, and forma as an additional layer of complexity and interest.

And we can both be right.

Handspring and Power Drift both take up 9 capacity and are both Exilus mods.

Generally speaking, you shouldn't polarize the Exilus slot, although I only learned this recently. I actually just got though removing a Naramon polarity from my Nidus's Exilus slot. That's a waste of not one forma, but two. The Forma to add it, and the Forma to remove it. Absolute bull, especially considering I paid real money for that Forma.

Status and crit related mods both tend to fall under Madurai and Naramon (Damage and Power) so switching between a status build and a critical build shouldn't require changing polarities. In other words, your build can change with the meta and your personal preferences, and so long as you don't muss it up- you won't have to polarize again.

I appreciate that you've been polite, but respectfully, not everything is a matter of opinion or perspective.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Good idea!

[chainchompguy3]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Handspring and Power Drift both take up 9 capacity and are both Exilus mods.

Generally speaking, you shouldn't polarize the Exilus slot, although I only learned this recently. I actually just got though removing a Naramon polarity from my Nidus's Exilus slot. That's a waste of not one forma, but two. The Forma to add it, and the Forma to remove it. Absolute bull, especially considering I paid real money for that Forma.

Status and crit related mods both tend to fall under Madurai and Naramon (Damage and Power) so switching between a status build and a critical build shouldn't require changing polarities. In other words, your build can change with the meta and your personal preferences, and so long as you don't muss it up- you won't have to polarize again.

I appreciate that you've been polite, but respectfully, not everything is a matter of opinion or perspective.

Those were examples.

Flawed ones, I'll admit.

I came up with them on the fly to try and better demonstrate my point.

You are focusing on the minutia of my argument, rather than the argument itself.

 

But you know what, I'll stop there. Because this is arguing a sub-argument, rather than the point at hand.

 

I'll speak what I'm really thinking.

 

What are the mechanics of a forma?

You polarize a mod slot, and it from then on gives a bonus to mods of the correct polarity, and a downside to all mods of the incorrect polarity.

You have come onto the forums, and stated that players should be given a way to cancel a polarity in the situation that it is incurring a downside on the mod they have slotted into it.

You are essentially proposing that the absolute most basic premise of a forma be changed, so that it would effectively no longer incur a downside, and act solely to give bonuses.

 

I stated that preferring forma to function this way is truly just a matter of opinion.

You implicitly refused to believe that it was a subjective matter, instead opting to believe that the current system was objectively making the game worse.

I guess I failed to argue enough.

My bad.

 

Your idea is terrible.

Everyone else is fine with this system, because it gives us the additional power we all know and love, but at the cost of variability, actively ensuring that players who demand the absolute most power also end up hitting the most road-blocks as they are inevitably forced to change their builds.

It is a beautiful and elegant system of ensuring that player consider how they mod their frame, while simultaneously making players feel like they're "Cheating the system" and "Are so dang clever" for managing to fit in all of the best mods.

 

You are very obviously just salty that you had to de-polarize a slot after you made a mistake. And instead of accepting that you made a mistake, you opted to believe that the system was just stupid, and that you shouldn't be forced to deal with the downsides of "yet another" double-edged sword system, and instead should only reap benefits.

 

I hope you enjoy your new build.

Edited February 12, 2018 by chainchompguy3
"No, Chainchompguy! At least TRY to be polite!"

[(PSN)Carnatus]

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

Those were examples.

Flawed ones, I'll admit.

I came up with them on the fly to try and better demonstrate my point.

You are focusing on the minutia of my argument, rather than the argument itself.

 

But you know what, I'll stop there. Because this is arguing a sub-argument, rather than the point at hand.

I don't know what you're doing to make this happen, but I have to highlight your post just to read it. Is this the opposite of emphasis?

- and the "minutia" of your argument IS your argument. You claimed that the ideal build is ever changing, as justification for continually updating your polarities. I argued that the right polarities could fit any type of build.

Whether you're changing your build from a status build to a critical, or making room for a new mod, or just tweaking your weapon for going up against a certain kind of enemy, with the right polarities you can do it all without changing a single polarity.

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I'll speak what I'm really thinking.

 

What are the mechanics of a forma?

You polarize a mod slot, and it from then on gives a bonus to mods of the correct polarity, and a downside to all mods of the incorrect polarity.

You have come onto the forums, and stated that players should be given a way to cancel a polarity in the situation that it is incurring a downside on the mod they have slotted into it.

You are essentially proposing that the absolute most basic premise of a forma be changed, so that it would effectively no longer incur a downside, and act solely to give bonuses.

Yup! Seems like you got a pretty firm grasp on exactly what I'm proposing.

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I stated that preferring forma to function this way is truly just a matter of opinion.

You implicitly refused to believe that it was a subjective matter, instead opting to believe that the current system was objectively making the game worse.

I guess I failed to argue enough.

My bad.

Marcus Aurelius would have you believe everything is subjective.

I'm not Marcus Aurelius.

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

Your idea is terrible.

Well, now you're coming off as po'ed and lashing out.

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

You are very obviously just salty that you had to de-polarize a slot after you made a mistake. And instead of accepting that you made a mistake, you opted to believe that the system was just stupid, and that you shouldn't be forced to deal with the downsides of "yet another" double-edged sword system, and instead should only reap benefits.

If wanting the game to improve is salty, then call me the Pacific Ocean. I've already sunk several hundred dollars into this game and I want nothing but success for it.

I noticed what I honestly believe to be a flaw or less than desirable aspect, and I offered a suggestion to improve it. That's what feedback is.

Any system that allows a player's time and effort and resources to ultimately be squandered is a flawed one, even if it was intended. Investing anything into the game should always be rewarded, never punished. Especially when there's real money involved. It's not just an "interesting gameplay mechanic" if I have to open my wallet.

It's not like if they implement this idea I'll miraculously get my stuff back- that Forma is gone, the time spent leveling up my Nidus again and again is gone. If it was just about that, I'd be asking for compensation surely, and I'm not. I've accepted my losses.

Anyway, funny you should bring up salt now. I'm actually supposed to be looking up foods that are low in sodium as we speak. My ex just texted me to remind me.

(I have my work cut out for me...do you know what has sodium in it? EVERYTHING!!! *cries*)

Anyway, toodles!~

Edit: one day, I will not have to edit a post because of typos. Today is not that day.

Edited February 12, 2018 by (PS4)Carnatus
typo

[chainchompguy3]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Well, now you're coming off as po'ed and lashing out.

You got me there. I was am very P.O.-ed.

 

 I spent an entire hour writing out, point-for-point detailing exact why the idea that assuming all/most builds will become stagnant is utterly ridiculous.

And then I stopped myself. I realized I was being rather condescending. I was assuming you couldn't understand the most basic points.

So I decided to go back to the beginning, and look through everything we've said, and look for exactly where our communication was breaking down.

 

I go to your very first post. The OP.

And you say the following:

8 hours ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

But what happens when you go a little overboard? When you add just one more Madurai, or one more Naramon, when that one more is one too many? Well, then you're stuck. You kinda HAVE to use a mod of that polarity now, even if the mod you have in mind isn't that type.

What happens when you jam a mod in a polarity it doesn't fit in? It takes up more space, instead of less. Talk about a blessing and a curse!
 

 

It inherently suggests that you understand the concept that a player is going to have situations where they change their build, in such a way that it requires different formas.

And then you go on to argue with me that players are going to reach a point where they no longer need to change their build.

 

So you know people will change their builds, but you argue with me that they won't?!

 

This isn't exactly what you said, of course. But having come to the conclusion that you were saying that, I felt like you were just wasting my time, and was thus far too upset to bother doing anything more than becoming extremely dismissive of your entire idea, seeing it all as just some troll defending a point he himself knows to be untenable.

 

So I wrote my feelings, and with the combination of what I noted above, your explicit refusal to admit that this is a matter of varying opinions despite the fact that I am literally presenting you with an alternate opinion, and your extremely condescending tone, they were not good feelings.

 

I may come back to this later. But not now.

Edited February 12, 2018 by chainchompguy3

[Mak_Gohae]

i've been asking for something like this since they added forma. Some DE dude that doesnt work there anymore said that they were considering my idea but i never heard it being brought up again. I even have posted on the stream threads about this several times.

My idea was being able to forma each config differently. Because that's the main issue here, once you forma for one build you cant switch configs to try another build because you are stuck with the one forma setup. This is the reason why i have formad only about 3 times max. I like switching play styles and if got further than that i wont be able to cause mods are not going to be able to fit.

I thought that the reason this idea isnt going to happen is because of the memory issue but your idea may bypass this issue. Turning the slots into an item you equip means that the game doesnt have to remember each different config build in. It just has to remember you putting item X into slot Y.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

3 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

Those were examples.

Flawed ones, I'll admit.

I came up with them on the fly to try and better demonstrate my point.

You are focusing on the minutia of my argument, rather than the argument itself.

 

But you know what, I'll stop there. Because this is arguing a sub-argument, rather than the point at hand.

 

I'll speak what I'm really thinking.

 

What are the mechanics of a forma?

You polarize a mod slot, and it from then on gives a bonus to mods of the correct polarity, and a downside to all mods of the incorrect polarity.

You have come onto the forums, and stated that players should be given a way to cancel a polarity in the situation that it is incurring a downside on the mod they have slotted into it.

You are essentially proposing that the absolute most basic premise of a forma be changed, so that it would effectively no longer incur a downside, and act solely to give bonuses.

 

I stated that preferring forma to function this way is truly just a matter of opinion.

You implicitly refused to believe that it was a subjective matter, instead opting to believe that the current system was objectively making the game worse.

I guess I failed to argue enough.

My bad.

 

Your idea is terrible.

Everyone else is fine with this system, because it gives us the additional power we all know and love, but at the cost of variability, actively ensuring that players who demand the absolute most power also end up hitting the most road-blocks as they are inevitably forced to change their builds.

It is a beautiful and elegant system of ensuring that player consider how they mod their frame, while simultaneously making players feel like they're "Cheating the system" and "Are so dang clever" for managing to fit in all of the best mods.

 

You are very obviously just salty that you had to de-polarize a slot after you made a mistake. And instead of accepting that you made a mistake, you opted to believe that the system was just stupid, and that you shouldn't be forced to deal with the downsides of "yet another" double-edged sword system, and instead should only reap benefits.

 

I hope you enjoy your new build.

I wanted to say something.

1. "Everyone". Everyone else cant possibly be fine with it. There was someone else who just said they were planning to make this same post. I had this same thought after booting up warframe after 3 months and remembering why i dont play this game that often. Its rather pointless trying to talk about core mechanics of warframe and how they could stand to change, because people get their feelings hurt when someone says warframe isnt perfect.

2. How can the op be salty for having to de-polarize? Saltiness aside, how can you say they made a "mistake" when de-polarizing is a natural and normal part of forma as they are in the game? The only way to change a polarity, even if wanting to erase the polarity, is to put in another forma, so de-polarizing isnt even really a thing, because you are always adding a forma to do something with your polarities, but thats nit picking. We all know that there are "best builds", but for those times when you do need to change up a polarity, your only option is to de-polarize. Does that make all of us registered losers? You yourself stated that the game is ever changing through nerfs, buffs and new mods. 

3. The best outcome would be suggesting some other options that dont ruin your image of what you think makes warframe great. You are obviously interested in maintaining the status quo, but when you argument fell on deaf ears, it was upsetting wasnt it? We all know DE isnt going to change forma. But if they did this, would it dumb the game down? If i were to simplify your argument, i would say you are against this change because it takes away some of the replayability that warframe offers. That is, without the goal of leveling something up, warframe becomes a little less fun in your eyes, and thats bad. I get that. But if thats the case, they should have left maps like draco in and disabled everything but experience points (credits, ressources). Because just like how some people like extermination missions because they think they are fun and have (had) a finite amount of enemies you could race to kill the fastest and some people hate extermination missions because they only have (had) a finite amount of enemies that dont scale and offer no challenge, so too can you find the same people who like forma for adding replayibility, and people who hate forma for adding an extra obstacle between them and enjoying the game with the mods they need to put back on to have fun.

Just intruding on this convo, dont mind me.

Edited February 12, 2018 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[(PSN)Carnatus]

16 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

It inherently suggests that you understand the concept that a player is going to have situations where they change their build, in such a way that it requires different formas.

And then you go on to argue with me that players are going to reach a point where they no longer need to change their build.

So you know people will change their builds, but you argue with me that they won't?!

Yeah, definitely seems like you misunderstood something and that you were on a completely different page.

24 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

This isn't exactly what you said, of course. But having come to the conclusion that you were saying that, I felt like you were just wasting my time, and was thus far too upset to bother doing anything more than becoming extremely dismissive of your entire idea, seeing it all as just some troll defending a point he himself knows to be untenable.

Oh, okay, so you realize that. That's good. Self-awareness and retrospection is always the first step towards not making the same mistakes.

30 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

So I wrote my feelings, and with the combination of what I noted above, your explicit refusal to admit that this is a matter of varying opinions despite the fact that I am literally presenting you with an alternate opinion, and your extremely condescending tone, they were not good feelings.

 

I may come back to this later. But not now.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'm not Marcus Aurelius.

The large majority of people these days view everything as though it were an opinion or differing perspective. I am not in that majority. Nonetheless, I am sorry you felt I was being condescending. I personally do not like being talked down to any more than the next person.

Take as much time as you need to regain your composure. Should you choose to not come back, I'll completely understand. I doubt there's much more to be said between the two of us anyway.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Is it Polarity Monday again already? Thread argued to death last week back from a new player again? Dead horses being beaten? Good show ^^

10 hours ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

My proposed way just cuts the bull.

As far as I understand it, the bull is supposed to be there.

Much like other games limit how fast you can run (or put a stamina bar on you) but not because they think it's realistic or immersive, it's because they want you to not be able to progress through the game faster than this, either for limits on escaping enemies, or limits on loading in large environments, or a dozen other programming reasons.

Warframe causes your levelling to be self-limiting. You want to get the best out of a build, then you have to forma for it, add the polarity, that's the first limit. A new mod comes out that would make your build way better, or cause you to want to change your build entirely? Have to redo it, because you've over-specialised, and that's the other limit.

It's bull, but it's intentional bull, to make sure that a player can't just spend an evening adding eight or ten Forma into a frame and then be able to address any and all new content forever.

To put it another way, it's the same reason they changed the Void Keys into Void Relics; to prevent players from being able to stockpile up keys in their spare time and then be able to run for any new Prime content instantly, which wasn't fair to players that couldn't stockpile. The same with the Plains of Eidolon (/Hills), they made sure that the economy of the Plains and Cetus was (at first) self-contained. Players that had resources from outside had hardly any advantage compared to the new players, and were only able to progress slightly faster than newer players thanks to that, putting everyone on a level playing field. There were still little things, like Pyrotic Alloy only being possible if you had both Pyrol and Cryotic, so any player with a stockpile of Cryotic had instant access to Pyrotic when they needed it, but other than that... no advantage.

Limits on the players. Forma is a limit, you specialise to get the most out of your frame, and then have the consequence of being over-specialised should something change.

[Leuca]

My issue with this system is not how forma function, but that there are quite a few mods, just like there are with weapons, which for all intents and purposes are *required* once you leave the star chart, and arguably are better while you're still on it. You wouldn't go without Serration on your rifle, because your rifle is objectively better with it on. Likewise, you would be silly to go without certain mods on your warframe, particularly those related to survivability. A Mag is not worth very much without enough shields to juggle with Polarize, and simply adding a Vitality+Steel Fiber to Valkyr puts her EHP through the roof in comparison to most other frames. Sure, you can *technically* choose to go without certain mods, and the better players will still probably do decently, but the incentive to play to those strengths is blatant, to say the least.

Just like DE was discussing removing certain mods from the pool and incorporating base damage into weapons across the board, it would play better into frames (without introducing any new mechanics that would break balance) and improve differentiation if we could see a balance pass across all of them in regards to how they rank up their health/shields/armor as they rank up. If you still want to minmax those stats with mods, then tone down their % values accordingly so they aren't absurd.

As the system currently functions, you are burning forma for required mods, not for actually having the opportunity to truly customize how your frame plays. I'm perfectly fine with investing a forma so that I can fit Primed Continuity into my build; I don't particularly enjoy using that forma for a mod that my frame feels gimped without.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Leuca

[Terrornaut]

@Thaylien beat me to it.  Basically, Forma's limitation is there by design.  To extremely over simplify it, its to keep you playing, keep you in game, keep you going and reaching for in game goals.

Sure, I would absolutely love your suggestion OP, for my own convenience (and even hope they slip up and add this), but all the reason's that @chainchompguy3 and Thaylien listed are pretty much enforced and supported by a ton of similar in-game mechanics.  It doesn't matter what you believe your opinion is as objective fact, it does not align with the intent of the game, its progression, its marketing, or any other facet.

[(PSN)Carnatus]

10 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

@Thaylien beat me to it.  Basically, Forma's limitation is there by design.  To extremely over simplify it, its to keep you playing, keep you in game, keep you going and reaching for in game goals.

Sure, I would absolutely love your suggestion OP, for my own convenience (and even hope they slip up and add this)

Yes, any feature that keeps players playing is good. But this ain't the way to go about it. There are other, better ways to keep players engaged.

- and besides, as I explained earlier, you only need to polarize an item so many times, if you do it right the first time. It only keeps the players engaged longer if they screw up.

Which again, is just a senseless waste of time and resources. A tedious and unfun experience that players choose to endure. Endure, not enjoy.

If anything, implementing this change might cause players to forma their Warframes even more, like adding several different polarities to their Aura slot, so they can use a wide variety of Auras. Whereas before they might've kept the same Aura polarity, simply because it was such a pain to change it.

More polarizing = more players spending time and money.

15 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Is it Polarity Monday again already? Thread argued to death last week back from a new player again? Dead horses being beaten? Good show ^^

As far as I understand it, the bull is supposed to be there.

Much like other games limit how fast you can run (or put a stamina bar on you) but not because they think it's realistic or immersive, it's because they want you to not be able to progress through the game faster than this, either for limits on escaping enemies, or limits on loading in large environments, or a dozen other programming reasons.

Warframe causes your levelling to be self-limiting. You want to get the best out of a build, then you have to forma for it, add the polarity, that's the first limit. A new mod comes out that would make your build way better, or cause you to want to change your build entirely? Have to redo it, because you've over-specialised, and that's the other limit.

It's bull, but it's intentional bull, to make sure that a player can't just spend an evening adding eight or ten Forma into a frame and then be able to address any and all new content forever.

To put it another way, it's the same reason they changed the Void Keys into Void Relics; to prevent players from being able to stockpile up keys in their spare time and then be able to run for any new Prime content instantly, which wasn't fair to players that couldn't stockpile. The same with the Plains of Eidolon (/Hills), they made sure that the economy of the Plains and Cetus was (at first) self-contained. Players that had resources from outside had hardly any advantage compared to the new players, and were only able to progress slightly faster than newer players thanks to that, putting everyone on a level playing field. There were still little things, like Pyrotic Alloy only being possible if you had both Pyrol and Cryotic, so any player with a stockpile of Cryotic had instant access to Pyrotic when they needed it, but other than that... no advantage.

Limits on the players. Forma is a limit, you specialise to get the most out of your frame, and then have the consequence of being over-specialised should something change.

Oh? Is this one of THOSE topics? Those topics that are re-occurring, because everyone and their mother agree the game would be better off for it?
But then people derail the thread with stupid, petty arguments about how it's "not realistic" or "a waste of the devs time" or some other nonsense like that?

Well darn, seems like every thread I make is one of those. Which sucks, cuz' I've always been an argumentative lad. Doesn't take much to bait me, and pull me off topic.
But hey, judging by your opening, you find the drama entertaining. "Good show" he says.

You know what's worse than happenstance bull? Intentional bull. Either way it needs to be cut, and anyone who advocates the contrary isn't someone I'm gonna see eye to eye with. If bull is what's supposed to keep players coming back, players are eventually gonna get sick and tired of the bull.

Because that's what bull does. Haven't you ever heard "I'm sick and tired of this bull?"
Granted, nowadays bull is followed by a word that means excrement which I'm not allowed to say here.

12 hours ago, Leuca said:

My issue with this system is not how forma function, but that there are quite a few mods, just like there are with weapons, which for all intents and purposes are *required* once you leave the star chart, and arguably are better while you're still on it. You wouldn't go without Serration on your rifle, because your rifle is objectively better with it on. Likewise, you would be silly to go without certain mods on your warframe, particularly those related to survivability. A Mag is not worth very much without enough shields to juggle with Polarize, and simply adding a Vitality+Steel Fiber to Valkyr puts her EHP through the roof in comparison to most other frames. Sure, you can *technically* choose to go without certain mods, and the better players will still probably do decently, but the incentive to play to those strengths is blatant, to say the least.

Just like DE was discussing removing certain mods from the pool and incorporating base damage into weapons across the board, it would play better into frames (without introducing any new mechanics that would break balance) and improve differentiation if we could see a balance pass across all of them in regards to how they rank up their health/shields/armor as they rank up. If you still want to minmax those stats with mods, then tone down their % values accordingly so they aren't absurd.

As the system currently functions, you are burning forma for required mods, not for actually having the opportunity to truly customize how your frame plays. I'm perfectly fine with investing a forma so that I can fit Primed Continuity into my build; I don't particularly enjoy using that forma for a mod that my frame feels gimped without.

I have to agree. Some mods just aren't optional, especially in the endgame. Moreso with certain Warframes and Weapons than others, but still. Good point.

Nidus is tanky as all get out, but without a Vitality and Steel Fiber? Pssh, good luck. Without those he's got 450 armor and 450 health, and 0 shields.