Equipping/Storing slot Polarities, rather than Overwriting them?

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Oh? Is this one of THOSE topics? Those topics that are re-occurring, because everyone and their mother agree the game would be better off for it?
But then people derail the thread with stupid, petty arguments about how it's "not realistic" or "a waste of the devs time" or some other nonsense like that?

Well darn, seems like every thread I make is one of those. Which sucks, cuz' I've always been an argumentative lad. Doesn't take much to bait me, and pull me off topic.
But hey, judging by your opening, you find the drama entertaining. "Good show" he says.

Oh grow a sense of humour. I'm not laughing at the topic as you wrote it, I just find it funny that nobody else reads the topics that have come before them to see what the first responses are going to be, try to address them in the original post, answer a few of their own questions, that kind of thing.

But your frustration with a system, and the other topics that have come before, doesn't change the fact that this system would basically allow any frame to accept any build at any time. Which is something that the Devs simply don't want, and is, as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, not possible in any other RPG either. If you specialise a set of gear, or a skill tree, in any other game, it stays specialised and you have to do something else to spec it into another build, or even farm that gear up again and spec it separately.

In several threads before, the maths has been done for Warframe, and going through as many frames and as many builds possible the answer is that the most you would ever have to forma a warframe (considering they all come with at least two base polarities) is 6 times. The most you would ever need to get to, no matter what the frame starts with, is three V, three - and two D polarities and every single build for every single frame is then possible. Then you would just move around and swap in and out for the build you wanted.

And what that means is that for every bit of new content you can have it instantly. There's no drawback to min-maxing, every new mod is instantly slotted, any new meta build is accomplished.

Whether you, or even a few thousand, would like that instant-access-to-everything or not? Doesn't really come into it. Of course you'd like it, it takes out your grind, it's desirable, it's something that would make things too easy for a player like you. And that's what they're preventing.

[Hypernaut1]

Game is more engaging with limitations. You do that, and you may as well do away with polarities in general. What's the point?

Edited February 13, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)Carnatus]

12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

In several threads before, the maths has been done for Warframe, and going through as many frames and as many builds possible the answer is that the most you would ever have to forma a warframe (considering they all come with at least two base polarities) is 6 times. The most you would ever need to get to, no matter what the frame starts with, is three V, three - and two D polarities and every single build for every single frame is then possible. Then you would just move around and swap in and out for the build you wanted.

And what that means is that for every bit of new content you can have it instantly. There's no drawback to min-maxing, every new mod is instantly slotted, any new meta build is accomplished.

Wow. You just wholeheartedly agreed with what I've been saying this whole time, lol. Yet you're telling me this as though it's in opposition to what I've been saying. Oddly enough, this kind of thing is common on the Warframe forums.

One time I started a thread (in the general discussion instead of general feedback, oops) about bringing back Arcane Helmets in the form of "Corrupted Arcane Enhancements". You know, just like the Arcane Enhancements, except instead of "%chance to increase this stat when this happens" it's "+this stat, - this stat" as a constant.

Basically solving the problem with the old Arcane system (being bound to certain cosmetics) by simply removing the buffs Arcane Helmets gave and making them attachable to any Helmet or Syandana as an Arcane Enhancement instead.

One person clearly didn't read anything more than the title, "Arcane Helmets", and thought I was asking for the old system to come back, and they said, get this:
"you'd be better off asking for" and they began describing EXACTLY what I was asking for, to the letter, lol.

Of course Arcane Enhancements are up for another change soon, with raids/trials ending, and apparently they'll be applied to a new slot in your Warframe..but that's another story.

Tl'dr, you're right. Eventually you'll have the ideal amount of polarities, and you won't need to Polarize it again. So there's an end. It won't keep players coming back forever, there is a metaphorical cap, and beyond a certain point continuing to polarize is just wasteful- only necessary if you made a mistake.

Ultimately this is less about removing penalties and more about avoiding wasted effort and resources.

12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Which is something that the Devs simply don't want, and is, as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, not possible in any other RPG either. If you specialise a set of gear, or a Whether you, or even a few thousand, would like that instant-access-to-everything or not? Doesn't really come into it. Of course you'd like it, it takes out your grind, it's desirable, it's something that would make things too easy for a player like you. And that's what they're preventing.

Play the Secret World sometime. It lets you unlock all powers, from all the different classes, and mix and match and switch between builds with ease- yet it still proves to be challenging and fun. (The old Secret World, not the new one- I can't speak about the new one, I don't know it...)

As for your implying that I'm just lazy and want to avoid a grind? My Nidus has been polarized 10 times. Several times just today and yesterday alone.






Edit: it's 4:50 in the morning and you insulted my character. I don't think it's too much to ask that you excuse my sass.

If you think this change would mean "instantly getting access to everything" it's readily apparent you don't actually know what's being proposed. You'd still have to polarize the same amount of times. You just wouldn't lose a polarity if you change or remove it.

I'm willing to bet you merely skimmed through and made assumptions based on what others have suggested previously- so give it another look, and tell me what exactly you think is the suggested change here.

Edited February 13, 2018 by (PS4)Carnatus
update

[chainchompguy3]

Really, I guess the logical conclusion is to just cut the crap entirely, if that's what you're going for.

Why even bother keeping the polarities around if you're just going to have the needless busywork of changing them to fit your build?

If all it does is give you mods at half-cost to that slot, and no penalties because you can just change the polarity to not be wrong, then cut the crap and just make forma an "Efficient slot" system, where you just make that slot half-price all mods, regardless of polarity.

But if you do that, and ultimately halve the cost of all mods in the game, suddenly Mod points are even more trivial than they are now.

Even the most expensive build mod-point wise:

+16 blind rage

+16 narrow minded

+16 transient fortitude

+16 primed vigor

+14 x 4 assorted mods.

+12 toxic flight, etc for Exilus.

Any aura

Becomes a measly 66 points (minus the negative-drain of Aura mods).

 

So suddenly, players have access to all the "best" mods for absolutely whatever they want. There is no longer "Well, maybe I should save some mod points to have X".

It'll just be "I need 5 more forma till I'm max rank, and then I won't need to bother with this mod-point crap"

There is no longer any point to NOT just slot in all the best stuff, essentially breaking the mod-point system over a knee.

*Edit* I guess I should be a bit more clear, here. Yes, something like this is attainable now. With the right Forma setup, most mods are able to be fit in. But the limit is still there. Slotting in the absurd build above would still take a fairly specialized forma setup, at least somewhat different from what one would normally run with. There are still limits in the current system, even if players have figured out how to not be bothered by them too much.

 

So then DE is faced with a choice:

Admit mod points are useless now, remove them entirely, possibly add a new system that could be even worse.

Come out with a host of new mods, all of which with massive mod point costs, in the hopes of making mod-points have value again.

Make a mass nerf across the whole game, jacking up mod-point costs of every mod.

Or just go back to the system we have today.

 

 

I'll admit our current system is not perfect. It has a disproportionate amount of work for reward, and it can be optimized just like any system players get their hands on (Poor Eidolons, getting farmed like cattle now).

But the rest of the game is built around it. And it works. Your suggestion fundamentally destroys one of the major aspects of the Polarity system. It knocks one of the legs out from under it.

 

So I guess it comes down to this: You suggestion COULD work. But only if the entire modding system changed with it.

And I don't see the playerbase agreeing with this proposal, when it could potentially mean that the mods they paid good platinum for end up changed in such a way as to be useless in the new system.

 

 

*edit* looking back at this, I see that I might be pressing a bit too much on a slippery-slope ideology/possible fallacy, and making a few logical leaps.

I start the post by basically strawmaning your idea. You are asking to equip/dequip Polarities in a similar way we do mods. And while that has many of the same effects as the system I talked about, it is not the system I talked about.

I'd like to rationalize it, thinking that if "Cut-the-bull" mentality can boil down the current system to your proposal, then me boiling your proposal into the strawman I did means that, inherently, the "Cut-the-bull" mentality is going to result in massive change, which is mostly the same point I made regardless.

But your actual system is significantly more reasonable than the one I made up; it requires at least some degree of thought in which polarities you grind first, whereas my strawman is just a mindless grind. So it's far less of an offensive system than I make it out to be.

I still stand by most of my arguments, because most of them should still apply. But I'll admit I did not present it nearly as well as I could have.

I'll have to ask for you to be kind enough to, what's a good word, "Extrapolate" the intent of my argument over to your system, and do the thinking yourself.

I'd edit the entirety of my post....but that's....that's editing an entire post.....

I have a lot more arguments on this topic. But this seems to be at least the most compelling, if nothing else.

Edited February 13, 2018 by chainchompguy3
I'm stupid. Just spewing words till something sticks in my head.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Wow. You just wholeheartedly agreed with what I've been saying this whole time, lol. Yet you're telling me this as though it's in opposition to what I've been saying. Oddly enough, this kind of thing is common on the Warframe forums.

No, I pointed out that this point of yours is exactly what you think it is, and your view that it's desirable is exactly why you can't do it.

Your view is that we should be able to min-max without limits, your view is that we should have instant access to the new content for the minimum input necessary.

Your view is not the developer's view.

In particular this:

2 hours ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Tl'dr, you're right. Eventually you'll have the ideal amount of polarities, and you won't need to Polarize it again. So there's an end. It won't keep players coming back forever, there is a metaphorical cap, and beyond a certain point continuing to polarize is just wasteful- only necessary if you made a mistake.

The 'certain point' you speak of is not achievable in the current system for as long as new content becomes available, and that's exactly where they want it.

Now your mistake is thinking that I don't agree that this would be a good thing.

Your mistake is thinking that I'm defending the Devs. I'm not.

I'm saying that this has been raised, been asked, been discussed and debated. It's been turned down and DE have never put it on the table for discussion, they don't want it.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Edit: it's 4:50 in the morning and you insulted my character. I don't think it's too much to ask that you excuse my sass.

If I was able to insult your character with that little comment, you're more sensitive than I. Sass all you want ^^

[chainchompguy3]

I touched on it in my edit post, but I figured I'd go a bit more in depth on that particular sub-topic.

 

The matter of builds coming to a point where players needn't ever change their forma's again.

You're right. Players can, most of the time, find a forma setup that allows them to just barely fit all the most they need, in such a way that it's still flexible.

But I'd argue that's less on the system being too encouraging of a stagnant build, and more on the player optimizing the system for themselves, which is an inevitability of anything a player can customize.

If a player opts to not change their forma setup and/or build, it's because they are opting to stick with what they like, not because there aren't options out there.

A full (D) polarity build is possible. And while I agree that probably isn't too practical, it's out there for explorative players.

 

I'd also like to make a distinction: Weapon builds are FAR less diverse than Warframe builds.

You've made the point before, so I won't even bother restating it.

But Warframes have much more to mod than just Damage potential, and these options are more equally distributed across polarity types.

When I made that sub-argument earlier, I was thinking of warframes, but gave an example of weapons. A fault on my end.

[ThePredicament]

You guys talk like dumping 24+ formas on any equipment is "easy". The limitations are already set by mod variety and slot availability, maximizing a piece of kit with four or five formas is no different from maximizing it with 24+ or even one more to polarity share a slot, because we all know that most slots will be equipped by essential mods and most multi-polar slots are going to be used mainly for exchanging meta mods for personal touches and variations (rivens, QoL mods, etc). It's not going to make anything suddenly magically OP, just won't make people waste a polarity to change when a new more viable mod is released, hesitate to slot a QoL mod, or even waste a slot to make a new weapon with different polarity builds.

And for those that have said it would be less work or whatever, a favorite weapon is going to see way more forma and way more build up action with a multi-polar system than one without because guess how many formas anyone has put in their gear? The same amount they've most likely been running since after they finished their build. For example, I'm sitting on 20+ built formas right now, all of my favorites are maximized with varying amounts ranging from 3-8 formas, I would easily overforma the F*** out of them if it was an option. Would I kick more &#! with that gear? No not really because my MAXIMIZED gear is already at the pinnacle of builds and using another forma on a D slot to make it a dash, will NOT make it any better.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

Wow, I'm not as polite as Thaylien, so I'm just gonna' say your argumentative tone was kinda' confusing but funny... how?

But that's besides the point.

I'm just gonna' say, that is just a lazy idea. Being able to save polarities just makes every Warframe in theory way more powerful than they should be. Forma are intentional limitations that are made as a double-edged form of specialization. You're not supposed to be able to have the polarities available whenever, as it would make any and all content easy to get through with anything with little to no work.

And why Forma Nidus 10 times? lol 

[Birdframe_Prime]

39 minutes ago, TheLocalHentai said:

You guys talk like dumping 24+ formas on any equipment is "easy".

We were thinking more like 6 forma, or 8, maybe 10 at the outside, and not all at once. The idea being that you would min-max a build by going for three or four forma right off the bat, then a new mod comes out (like a Primed Continuity) and suddenly you need more space, so you forma again, or you need a V now instead of a -, so you run again. Eventually, if you've been in the game for as long as I or others have, you may end up having forma'd a warframe or weapon around 8 times if it's your favourite. I know I dropped 7 on the Mk-1 Paris for a challenge, once, so that I could see if I could get it to perform at Sortie... Long story short, I almost equalled damage and kills with a Nova on tier 2, which was fun ^^

OP's idea would be to make sure that that is all you'd need. All you'd need to do would be to add enough forma to total up the polarities to include 3 V, 3 - and 2 D polarities stored there, and every build in the game would be open to you for the rest of time. So if a Volt Prime, for example, comes with a V aura, and two V polarities and a -, you'd put on two more -'s, then add two D's. 4 forma and Volt would never, ever have to worry about new builds. To my mind, that would be fun, but broken.

As for how easy it is... Depends... 

On a melee weapon it's easy, because of my MR I get 50 points of build space the second I craft a weapon and put a Catalyst on it, plus the Stance mod that fits. I can max a melee in a single run on Adaro with my Banshee Savage Silence setup, about 5 minutes, so 24 forma is two hours work, give or take a few minutes. A Primary/Secondary is ten waves at Stofler or a similar-rank Defense, which can be accomplished pretty quickly too, call it the same if you have a good team with patience, or three hours if you're public.

A frame, though? I'm not sure. Any frame that kills things with their abilities, not too long, any frame that doesn't might take anywhere between 15-30 minutes per Forma.

So, yeah, just thought I'd put some context there ^^

[AetherMcLoud]

On 11.2.2018 at 11:58 PM, peterc3 said:

The added benefit is making a matching polarity mod take up half capacity. You use Forma to specialize a build, allow you to slot higher power mods. You explicitly lose flexibility. This is not an oversight. This isn't a bug. This is by design.

This, really. If you could just unequip every polarity at will forma'ing every frame and weapon 8+ times would always be the correct choice.

[(PSN)Carnatus]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

No, I pointed out that this point of yours is exactly what you think it is, and your view that it's desirable is exactly why you can't do it.

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The 'certain point' you speak of is not achievable in the current system for as long as new content becomes available, and that's exactly where they want it.

I think you mean we spoke of...

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Your view is that we should be able to min-max without limits, your view is that we should have instant access to the new content for the minimum input necessary.

My view is that if I polarize my Aura slot so that Madurai becomes Naramon, and then change it back to Madurai again later, I've spent two Forma and the time it takes to max out a frame, and am right back where I started, with nothing to show for it.

My view is that if I add a Polarity to my Exilus slot, and then remove it, I've spent two Forma and the time it takes to max out a frame- and am right back where I started, with nothing to show for it.

Normal slots, same thing. Add a Polarity, change it, remove it- waste, waste, waste.

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I'm saying that this has been raised, been asked, been discussed and debated. It's been turned down and DE have never put it on the table for discussion, they don't want it.

I doubt my exact suggestion has been touched on, and until you can provide some proof that it was- I'm gonna keep going.

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

If I was able to insult your character with that little comment, you're more sensitive than I.

What do you mean, "if I was able"?

"If I was able to insult your character by implying that you're just lazy and want everything to be easy, you're sensitive!~"

Yeah, guess I am then...

3 hours ago, TheLocalHentai said:

You guys talk like dumping 24+ formas on any equipment is "easy". The limitations are already set by mod variety and slot availability, maximizing a piece of kit with four or five formas is no different from maximizing it with 24+ or even one more to polarity share a slot, because we all know that most slots will be equipped by essential mods and most multi-polar slots are going to be used mainly for exchanging meta mods for personal touches and variations (rivens, QoL mods, etc). It's not going to make anything suddenly magically OP, just won't make people waste a polarity to change when a new more viable mod is released, hesitate to slot a QoL mod, or even waste a slot to make a new weapon with different polarity builds.

And for those that have said it would be less work or whatever, a favorite weapon is going to see way more forma and way more build up action with a multi-polar system than one without because guess how many formas anyone has put in their gear? The same amount they've most likely been running since after they finished their build. For example, I'm sitting on 20+ built formas right now, all of my favorites are maximized with varying amounts ranging from 3-8 formas, I would easily overforma the F*** out of them if it was an option. Would I kick more &#! with that gear? No not really because my MAXIMIZED gear is already at the pinnacle of builds and using another forma on a D slot to make it a dash, will NOT make it any better.

Polarities sharing a slot? Multi-polar slots? It seems that you understand, but at the same time it feels like there's a small misunderstanding.

I'm suggesting that polarities be unequiped, and stored away. Not be on a slot at the same time as other slots. You'd just be able to switch between them freely, instead of having it just *poof* vanish when you change or remove it. You'd be able to re-add it later to another slot or the same one. (barring Exilus and Aura slots)

You're right though. It doesn't do anything to make frames more overpowered, it doesn't reduce the minimum amount of times you'd need to Forma, it just avoids waste.

3 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Wow, I'm not as polite as Thaylien, so I'm just gonna' say your argumentative tone was kinda' confusing but funny... how?

But that's besides the point.

I'm just gonna' say, that is just a lazy idea. Being able to save polarities just makes every Warframe in theory way more powerful than they should be. Forma are intentional limitations that are made as a double-edged form of specialization. You're not supposed to be able to have the polarities available whenever, as it would make any and all content easy to get through with anything with little to no work.

And why Forma Nidus 10 times? lol 

Way more powerful? Polarities don't make Warframes more powerful, mods do.

You'd still have to polarize the Warframe the same amount of times to add the polarities you want/need, you just wouldn't have to forma something 10 times because you decided to go back and change or remove a polarity.

Why would you forma ANYTHING 10 times? I add this, remove that, change that, revert that to what it originally was...I mean, there's only so much you can do there before you're just flailing around blindly.

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

We were thinking more like 6 forma, or 8, maybe 10 at the outside, and not all at once. The idea being that you would min-max a build by going for three or four forma right off the bat, then a new mod comes out (like a Primed Continuity) and suddenly you need more space, so you forma again, or you need 

OP's idea would be to make sure that that is all you'd need. All you'd need to do would be to add enough forma to total up the polarities to include 3 V, 3 - and 2 D polarities stored there, and every build in the game would be open to you for the rest of time. So if a Volt Prime, for example, comes with a V aura, and two V polarities and a -, you'd put on two more -'s, then add two D's. 4 forma and Volt would never, ever have to worry about new builds. To my mind, that would be fun, but broken.

Literally the only thing I'm saying is that if I change or remove a polarity, it gets stored and I can reapply it later. That way time/effort/resources (both in-game resources and resources I paid for) don't go to waste. That's all it is.

I never necessarily said you should be able to store and reapply innate polarities, did I?
(No, honestly, did I? I'm running on 4 hours of sleep right now)

Edited February 13, 2018 by (PS4)Carnatus
typos, uck, I hate typos

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Way more powerful? Polarities don't make Warframes more powerful, mods do.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Being able to save polarities just makes every Warframe in theory way more powerful than they should be. And why Forma Nidus 10 times? lol 

 

[(PSN)Carnatus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

*snip*

Were you trying to make a point by emphasising "in theory"?

-like saying it theoretically makes it any less incorrect?

Edited February 13, 2018 by (PS4)Carnatus
typo

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Carnatus said:

Were you trying to make a point by emphasising "in theory"?

-like saying it theoretically makes it any less incorrect?

You're not understanding the in theory part, even though I literally explain it right afterwards.

[True_Naeblis]

I'm not really a fan of the current system. Builds become limited to the meta and there's no real room to experiment at all. That's also an element of the way that status and other features work, but the polarity system as well. Setting the base code so that polarities can be toggled after a certain number of forma are added--and better still making them all be used at once to unlock the feature on the slot so that the number added doesn't become one more thing to store--should not be a big resource drain. The database would still only have to save the current config, not all possible configs.

Something more enjoyable should be implemented. It's mediocre and limiting at the moment.

[Terrornaut]

Carnatus, please, people have been reasonable, and many people in this thread are people who keep level headed and respectful throughout hundreds of posts.  You've taken personally different opinions and supported evidence, taken insult when people have meant none, and have taken often a snarky tone of offense and condescension for people when it is not necessary at all.  You are arguing with people with heat that doesn't have to be there, and nobody is hating on you or calling you a fool or crazy or anything.  Nobody is trying to take jabs at you, but you're coming back with quips and strikes.

The idea proposed is sound, plenty of us like it, but there is so much evidence from DE that it will not happen because it would divert from core design principles and psychology embedded into the game.  I'm not saying don't root for it, I've forma'd some of my favorite frames at most 6 times and that was really just excess for me, but I do know some who've forma'd frames 12+ times. I ran into this exact situation while trying to redo a build on a weapon on Sunday - I wished I could repolarize a slot but switch between the other and reactivate the old one if I needed.  I don't see any evidence that they will disrupt this intended limitation whatsoever, but hey, if you convince them, I'll be happy.

[(PSN)Carnatus]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

You're not understanding the in theory part, even though I literally explain it right afterwards.

Hypothetically, theoretically, in theory, we ain't trying to prove the law of gravity here.

What's true is true, and what isn't isn't.

17 minutes ago, True_Naeblis said:

I'm not really a fan of the current system.

Something more enjoyable should be implemented. It's mediocre at the moment.

This much I agree with.

18 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

Carnatus, please, people have been reasonable, and many people in this thread are people who keep level headed and respectful throughout hundreds of posts.

You're implying I haven't been?

20 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

You've taken insult when people have meant none.

Insult where insult was very much meant, you mean.

"Of course you'd like it, it takes out your grind, it's desirable, it's something that would make things too easy for a player like you. And that's what they're preventing."

How is this NOT an insult?

23 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

and have taken often a snarky tone of offense and condescension for people when it is not necessary at all.

tone in text is entirely up to the reader's imagination.

25 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

nobody is hating on you or calling you a fool or crazy or anything.

what are you talking about? of course they aren't.

28 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

Nobody is trying to take jabs at you, but you're coming back with quips and strikes.

I mean, aside from a few instances where jabs were definitely being taken, I've responded in a pretty flat way.

I really think you're perceiving an aggression that simply isn't coming from me.

31 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

The idea proposed is sound, plenty of us like it, but there is so much evidence from DE that it will not happen because it would divert from core design principles and psychology embedded into the game.  I'm not saying don't root for it, I've forma'd some of my favorite frames at most 6 times and that was really just excess for me, but I do know some who've forma'd frames 12+ times. I ran into this exact situation while trying to redo a build on a weapon on Sunday - I wished I could repolarize a slot but switch between the other and reactivate the old one if I needed.  I don't see any evidence that they will disrupt this intended limitation whatsoever, but hey, if you convince them, I'll be happy.

People really need to stop talking about how "DE said this" and "DE believes that" without sharing exactly where and how DE said it.

Link me to a video, show me a quote, something, otherwise you're just wasting my time. If I had a nickel for everytime someone spoke on behalf of DE in an attempt to shut down a discussion, I'd have as many nickels as there are threads.