Ember request, fixing without crippling

[Fallen_Echo]

Hello Tenno!

I have a simple request what should fix the outlying issue of Ember and her current WoF.

First of all while it certainly fixed the problems of teammates feeling useless as now the range is small as hell, it created huge problems in her survivability.

Without the high range wof ember has problems with survival as any enemy who is not stunned could be the bringer of death to her.

But i have a solution.

Change wof in the following way:

1. Base range only decreased by 4 meter.
2. Energy drain stays but with condition.(see point 5)
3. Wof now deals damage based on the targets current health + damage based on their level. 5% current health damage (max 10%) +5 heat damage for every level the enemies have. The level based damage is unaffected by power stats.
4. Wof destroys containers.
5. Wof has 2 areas now, the closer area deals damage as said in point 3. In this area the enemies dying create small scale blastwave firewalls working exactly like the standard blastwave, this area covers 40% of the total range of wof and every enemy who reaches this zone increases energy drain up to max double consuption. The further half what covers the left out 60% area deals half damage but also makes enemies vulnerable to all heat based combined elements (+10% at base, affected by strenght).

These changes ensure that WoF cannot be used anymore for racing throught extermination as the current health based damage ensures that WoF in itself cant kill anything. This change also makes it soo that WoF is now scaling while keeps its CC ability too. The secondary area makes sure no player tries to leave the job for his teammates as every enemy increases the drain.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Fallen_Echo

[Walkampf]

I've played Oberon for in the recent weeks and i totally agree on abilities dealing Health% damage.

Oberons Smite is a really good example of how good this makes an ability feel.

 

 

And i strongly disagree with removing the range decrease. This is great and forces players to move around and utilise parkour2.0. It also gives you a lot more controll over which target you want to deal WoF to deal damage to. The ability is now controllable, instead of some widespread RNG

[SenorClipClop]

29 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Wofs current health based damage ignores armor.

No. Why would fire ignore Armor when it normally is resisted by it?

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

And i strongly disagree with removing the range decrease. This is great and forces players to move around and utilise parkour2.0. It also gives you a lot more controll over which target you want to deal WoF to deal damage to. The ability is now controllable, instead of some widespread RNG

Its still rng, if you ran into a group of 6 only 5 of them will catch fire and thats random. I wanted to remove the range decrease because this way ember keeps her CC capacity, because half range is really crippling even if you mod for max range it end up having 21m fast.

The proposed version still forces people to move around as WoF now literally cant kill anything in this version.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

I've played Oberon for in the recent weeks and i totally agree on abilities dealing Health% damage.

Oberons Smite is a really good example of how good this makes an ability feel.

They fixed it? I recall when the rework first dropped Smite could barely tickle enemies; since then I've really only used his other three powers (on the occasion that the randomizer decides I will play as him, which hasn't been these past two weeks)

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

No. Why would fire ignore Armor when it normally is resisted by it?

Everything is resisted by armor, even the corrosive damage gets resisted by it because it add flat damage reduction to enemies.

Also heat damage doenst have direct problems with armor its neutral to it and even if it would have damage increase on it this is here to force consistent damage numbers.

If a target gets attacked it always deal 5% damage based on its current health and the damage with every proc gets smaller and smaller.

[SenorClipClop]

35 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Everything is resisted by armor, even the corrosive damage gets resisted by it because it add flat damage reduction to enemies.

Also heat damage doenst have direct problems with armor its neutral to it and even if it would have damage increase on it this is here to force consistent damage numbers.

If a target gets attacked it always deal 5% damage based on its current health and the damage with every proc gets smaller and smaller.

Even so, why should fire ignore Armor? Most Warframe powers are affected by it (exception: Ash, some of Saryn).

[Fallen_Echo]

9 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Even so, why should fire ignore Armor? Most Warframe powers are affected by it (exception: Ash, some of Saryn).

Because the initial amount is low. 5% is nothing but a tickle to a lv100 enemy.

If an enemy appears at lv8 with 100 starting hp base 10 armor it will have 4% damage reduction. Meaning the attack will deal 4 damage.

On level 100 the same enemy will have 12K hp along with 146 armor and will have 32% damage reduction. Meaning this skill will deal 408 damage instead of 600.

On an enemy who had 100 base armor the reduction is 83% the damage will be 102.

If we take out armor from the equotion the damage will still be low as hell but it will be consistent.

 

We could take out the armor ignoring part but then the base damage needs to be buffed to atleast 30% to compensate lost power.

[SenorClipClop]

4 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because the initial amount is low. 5% is nothing but a tickle to a lv100 enemy.

If an enemy appears at lv8 with 100 starting hp base 10 armor it will have 4% damage reduction. Meaning the attack will deal 4 damage.

On level 100 the same enemy will have 12K hp along with 146 armor and will have 32% damage reduction. Meaning this skill will deal 408 damage instead of 600.

On an enemy who had 100 base armor the reduction is 83% the damage will be 102.

If we take out armor from the equotion the damage will still be low as hell but it will be consistent.

 

We could take out the armor ignoring part but then the base damage needs to be buffed to atleast 30% to compensate lost power.

You're telling me why you want WoF to ignore Armor, but I'm not seeing any justification as to why it should.

Ember has always been weak against Armor. She doesn't need anything built into her to correct this. It's an intentional weakness of the frame to be compensated for with other loadout elements (Corrosive status on weapons, etc.).

[Fallen_Echo]

11 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

You're telling me why you want WoF to ignore Armor, but I'm not seeing any justification as to why it should.

My reasoning is nothing more but consistency. If we take out armor from the equotion ember is equally useful for every faction and not just against corpus and infested.

12 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Ember has always been weak against Armor. She doesn't need anything built into her to correct this. It's an intentional weakness of the frame to be compensated for with other loadout elements (Corrosive status on weapons, etc.).

This is not true here, overheat created armor ignoring damage too but it was scrapped along with many other armor ignoring elements with the damage update.

[Harbinger81]

 I have to say the only problem I have with Ember right now is that to truly get her to be efficient with energy you need to add two duration mods. Getting range or power then becomes the issue and to balance the three efficiency/power/range really doesn't work with the current mods available. I currently have 2 embers for this reason, one for a power efficiency build and another for a power range build. I would like to see a new corrupted mod that added efficiency with the minus being power strength. I think this would allow a build fitting the current changes and add some interesting options for other frames as well. The current efficiency mod Fleeting Expertise  causes the energy draw of WoF to be too high and you need to add Primed Continuity and Constitution to counter that one negative...

So DE can we get a new corrupted mod that is efficiency with minus power strength? Pretty please?  We could call it Enfeebled Virtue. Comments?

[Fallen_Echo]

Okay i edit the main page with suggested changes.

[Terrornaut]

On 2/13/2018 at 5:12 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

This is not true here, overheat created armor ignoring damage too but it was scrapped along with many other armor ignoring elements with the damage update.

There is a reason for this.  DE does not want to get rid of armor/create another situation where everyone can basically bypass armor like in damage 1.0

On 2/13/2018 at 4:58 AM, SenorClipClop said:

Ember has always been weak against Armor. She doesn't need anything built into her to correct this. It's an intentional weakness of the frame to be compensated for with other loadout elements (Corrosive status on weapons, etc.).

Pretty much this...and when you do compensate, Ember can be devastating.  There are a lot of ways to strip armor, and Ember should not have armor removing built into her kit, not strongly or scaling anyway.

 

As far as the original suggestions Fallen_Echo, lets see.  While I kind of like the idea of a ground zero radius and then a falloff area where something different happens, they for whatever reason don't want to add scaling % based damage to a damage frame, even though they've added it on (arguably) non damage frames like broberon who can do that to a whole crowd, or do crazed things to some bosses (but then again so can power strength ember with fireblast, the one and only time that ability is worth anything and then its borderline exploit-level broken).Currently WoF ticks at like 0.30 sec or something.  The tic rate per second would have to be adjusted maybe, but looking at a level 1 mob with 100 HP, here's what would happen:

Spoiler

 

HP% Damage only versus HP% DMG+5hp/mob level

100 v 100 = At 0 seconds.
90 v 85.0
81 v 71.5
73 v 59.4
65 v 48.5 = At 1.2 seconds
58 v 38.7
51 v 29.9
46 v 22.0 = At 2.1 seconds
40 v 18.8
36 v 8.4
32 v 2.6 = At 3.0 seconds
29 v Dead = At 3.3 seconds
28.9
26.1
23.5
21.2 . . .

 

So numbers obviously are placeholder, and lets say that's at 200% power strength to get to -10% hp per tick.  That's still pretty fast to die, considering it probably takes maybe 1.2 sec for me at 240 power strength to kill a level 120 no armor/low armor mob with accelerant active, currently.  Ignoring time and experimental numbers, if this was slowed down to say 12 seconds (by doing max of 5%current hp per tick) for ttk at 100% power, 6 sec for 200% power to mobs close by (base fixed range of around... 12m lets say), she's dangerous to enemies up close but still has to do some work. 

Armor will slow down ttk on the -hp per level (which could also scale with power strength, or not...some part of a 4th ability should though so maybe this is the part that scales) by a little, semi exponentially, but be helped by stripping armor.  I'd really say let it do 1/hp per level as a fixed amount...v level 100 with 240 strength (what I run vs level100+ corrupted and grineer enemies) + accel on a mob, it'd be doing 5%hp current+600hp heat damage, which does well vs light armored targets but not as well as current, but does more vs heavy armored unstripped targets vs current numbers and nonscaling, but balances out kind of (I know, I should do numbers vs a level 100 hgunner and butcher or charger).  Vs armored targets of course she'd be doing more damage before stripping armor compared to current Ember, and less damage after stripping than currently on a strength build, but she's able to take a more balanced build (which would be nice really).  With 240 power strength and accel wof will tick for me for 960*6 heat dmg currently, so it is a tradeoff.  Its a nerf to raw power strength builds because you don't get as much damage vs stripped heavy armor targets at high levels, but you do noteworthy damage and are able to rely less on armor stripping weapons/focus abilities/companions/allies...so it kind of opens up some options while still keeping her a light armor/low hp mob killer.  You don't have to build as much for power strength and can focus on utlity mods, duration/range/efficiency for her 1-3 abilities.

Adding a mini accelerant to the falloff zone could be something.  Forces you to work a bit more and you can get more out of your 1-3 and heat weapons, so you still have to do more (which is how I work with Ember currently, taking a beefed up ogris or tigris p or zarr and putting a 720% heat mod on your weapons is pretty significant), but uh...yeah I don't know.  I'd say instead of heat dmg vulnerability, Ember's attacks that deal heat procs add a -accuracy debuff that scales with power strength...which means she's best off meleeing close range enemies, and aoe or picking on targets that are farther away so she can get close to them to deal full damage.  Kind of like Ember pointing through a crowd of surrounding enemies like "yeah, I'm coming for you after I deal with these fools", and they're like "oh poop, k." Feels like that would create some kind of gameplay loop to pursue.  Like enemies are most dangerous near you, but you're also more dangerous near them, but you have incentive to still hunt, prioritize enemies further away, and pounce on everything.  She still deals passively with immediate threats while having to/being able to focus on dangerous targets farther away...but she can't ignore nearby low armor targets as much now. Power shifts somewhat from better vs heavy armor to passively worse vs lower armor targets that don't really take attention or effort anyway.

Shrug? Its an idea?  Could be cool, and no weirdness/deliberately annoying players with downscaling and upscaling values like the current change.
 

 

[robbybe01234]

Has anyone actually worn plate armor on a hot summer day in Mass. at a renfair?  It freaking suuuuuuuucks. 

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

Pretty much this...and when you do compensate, Ember can be devastating.  There are a lot of ways to strip armor, and Ember should not have armor removing built into her kit, not strongly or scaling anyway.

 

As far as the original suggestions Fallen_Echo, lets see.  While I kind of like the idea of a ground zero radius and then a falloff area where something different happens, they for whatever reason don't want to add scaling % based damage to a damage frame, even though they've added it on (arguably) non damage frames like broberon who can do that to a whole crowd, or do crazed things to some bosses (but then again so can power strength ember with fireblast, the one and only time that ability is worth anything and then its borderline exploit-level broken).Currently WoF ticks at like 0.30 sec or something.  The tic rate per second would have to be adjusted maybe, but looking at a level 1 mob with 100 HP, here's what would happen:

  Hide contents

 

HP% Damage only versus HP% DMG+5hp/mob level

100 v 100 = At 0 seconds.
90 v 85.0
81 v 71.5
73 v 59.4
65 v 48.5 = At 1.2 seconds
58 v 38.7
51 v 29.9
46 v 22.0 = At 2.1 seconds
40 v 18.8
36 v 8.4
32 v 2.6 = At 3.0 seconds
29 v Dead = At 3.3 seconds
28.9
26.1
23.5
21.2 . . .

 

So numbers obviously are placeholder, and lets say that's at 200% power strength to get to -10% hp per tick.  That's still pretty fast to die, considering it probably takes maybe 1.2 sec for me at 240 power strength to kill a level 120 no armor/low armor mob with accelerant active, currently.  Ignoring time and experimental numbers, if this was slowed down to say 12 seconds (by doing max of 5%current hp per tick) for ttk at 100% power, 6 sec for 200% power to mobs close by (base fixed range of around... 12m lets say), she's dangerous to enemies up close but still has to do some work. 

Armor will slow down ttk on the -hp per level (which could also scale with power strength, or not...some part of a 4th ability should though so maybe this is the part that scales) by a little, semi exponentially, but be helped by stripping armor.  I'd really say let it do 1/hp per level as a fixed amount...v level 100 with 240 strength (what I run vs level100+ corrupted and grineer enemies) + accel on a mob, it'd be doing 5%hp current+600hp heat damage, which does well vs light armored targets but not as well as current, but does more vs heavy armored unstripped targets vs current numbers and nonscaling, but balances out kind of (I know, I should do numbers vs a level 100 hgunner and butcher or charger).  Vs armored targets of course she'd be doing more damage before stripping armor compared to current Ember, and less damage after stripping than currently on a strength build, but she's able to take a more balanced build (which would be nice really).  With 240 power strength and accel wof will tick for me for 960*6 heat dmg currently, so it is a tradeoff.  Its a nerf to raw power strength builds because you don't get as much damage vs stripped heavy armor targets at high levels, but you do noteworthy damage and are able to rely less on armor stripping weapons/focus abilities/companions/allies...so it kind of opens up some options while still keeping her a light armor/low hp mob killer.  You don't have to build as much for power strength and can focus on utlity mods, duration/range/efficiency for her 1-3 abilities.

Adding a mini accelerant to the falloff zone could be something.  Forces you to work a bit more and you can get more out of your 1-3 and heat weapons, so you still have to do more (which is how I work with Ember currently, taking a beefed up ogris or tigris p or zarr and putting a 720% heat mod on your weapons is pretty significant), but uh...yeah I don't know.  I'd say instead of heat dmg vulnerability, Ember's attacks that deal heat procs add a -accuracy debuff that scales with power strength...which means she's best off meleeing close range enemies, and aoe or picking on targets that are farther away so she can get close to them to deal full damage.  Kind of like Ember pointing through a crowd of surrounding enemies like "yeah, I'm coming for you after I deal with these fools", and they're like "oh poop, k." Feels like that would create some kind of gameplay loop to pursue.  Like enemies are most dangerous near you, but you're also more dangerous near them, but you have incentive to still hunt, prioritize enemies further away, and pounce on everything.  She still deals passively with immediate threats while having to/being able to focus on dangerous targets farther away...but she can't ignore nearby low armor targets as much now. Power shifts somewhat from better vs heavy armor to passively worse vs lower armor targets that don't really take attention or effort anyway.

Shrug? Its an idea?  Could be cool, and no weirdness/deliberately annoying players with downscaling and upscaling values like the current change.

Okay im on mobile and the wifi is a bit unstable so im gonna do a second edit when i get to some reliable wifi source.

So if i get this right this is what you think would be good right?

-Damage 5% based on current health +1/enemy level (enemy level bonus is fixed)

-In the further area instead of heat vulnerability the targets get accuracy debuff

 

 

[Terrornaut]

Right.  Ultimately numbers don't really matter coming from us as suggestions because DE are the ones that will have to do the calculations based on info we don't have access to/have to do a ton of testing to figure those numbers.  Things like calculating and gauging time to kill based on average numbers, gearsets at different levels, possibly some vision/guideline/rubric/philosophy they have that we aren't privy to.
World On Fire remix:
 

Spoiler

 

Upon cast, World on Fire deals damage to 5 targets and ignites them on fire (100% status chance on initial cast).  As the ability remains active, targets near Ember are overwhelmed with purifying fire.  Targets within Ember's explosive region are affected by the fallout of fiery explosions obscure their senses, making it difficult to aim. 

World on Fire deals 4% of an enemy's current health as ..finisher damage (so it doesn't scale off accelerant)..? (%HP scales with strength) + 1 heat damage per target's level (scales with strength) out to 10m (fixed range) per tic (1 tick per 0.33 sec, 3 or 5 tics active total) that has a base status chance of 40% (scales with power strength).  Up to 13m (scales with range stat), all targets lose track of the fiery battlefield and suffer an accuracy penalty of 20% (scales with power strength).  Also, it explodes containers, because world is on fire.
Base Fire Range: 10m
Base Obscurity Range: 13m
Drain: Current drain.

 

The accuracy debuff zone scales with range and the strength of the accuracy debuff with power strength (base 20% to throw a number out there, which is...kind of 20% dr for the party excluding aoe blast mobs shooting next to you and still killing you)

Problem with this is...accelerant.  You can't make the %HP damage heat damage and be reasonable.  You can't multiply 4% every .3sec by .. (240 power str in my case) 6.  That's...13.6% HP per tick every 3 sec on any mob before accel and 81% hp per tick after accel. That's...not going to happen, and they aren't going to change accel. I wouldn't really want them to either.  So, HP% damage would have to be finisher damage so it doesn't scale multiple times.  I have a feeling they don't want finisher damage on Ember and probably don't want it on any frame but Ash (and maybe not him, but there's no way they're going to remove that, at least not before damage 3.0).

So I don't think this is going to work out, as much as I'd like it over current wof.