Ash Feedback

[Dragazer]

All BS needs to actually feel good to use again:

 

[Altre]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

I like how CP is mandatory, so people don't need to mod for corrosive and the "entire crew can do damage with their chosen source" but you ignore shields.... Because toxin damage can bypass them. So when it comes to shields, it doesn't matter what the crew wants to use lol. That's contradicting.

 

I rarely need to use CP myself. Haven't had many issues with enemy armor, unless I'm trying to kill things with ember/ignis. Or trying to kill Nox, in sorties that have augmented armor.

 

But yes, if targeting *is* an issue, it should be fixed 

We must not be on the same page about the application of CP and toxic. I didn't say use them exclusively with one another. Use them appropriately based on the enemy you will be facing. This isn't contradictory because they aren't mutually inclusive. Toxic is useful, still, against high level anything due to scaling damage VS flat damage rates of other damage types when procced.

 

I'm glad that we're on the same page about the subject of the thread.

 

@Dragazer-This is exactly what it needs! The clones will do their thing without the hindrance of relying on a clunky targeting system. They can even keep it line of sight.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Altre

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, Altre said:

We must not be on the same page about the application of CP and toxic. I didn't say use them exclusively with one another. Use them appropriately based on the enemy you will be facing. This isn't contradictory because they aren't mutually inclusive. Toxic is useful, still, against high level anything due to scaling damage VS flat damage rates of other damage types when procced.

 

I'm glad that we're on the same page about the subject of the thread.

 

@Dragazer-This is exactly what it needs! The clones will do their thing without the hindrance of relying on a clunky targeting system. They can even keep it line of sight.

No, I mean that you make CP mandatory for high lvl missions....  But when it comes to corpus, you turn around and make it mandatory that they deal toxic damage... But its not ok to expect people to use corrosive status weapons... 

 

It's contradicting that you expect people to build for CP so everyone can play as they like, and ignore the possible use of corrosive damage...

But for shields, you expect people to only use toxic damage sources... Instead of using the shield reduction aura.

 

*Edit* yeah, it seems smoother for console to auto-target enemies within a radius AoE. Have clones attack them as you cast it... Or the Neir clip too. 

Butfor PC, honestly it's not that much of a hindrance for me. I do think targeting issues are annoying, bit it doesn't break my gameplay. Would it be nicer/awesome if it did work that way? Of course! But I don't *need* it, even if I get targeting issues. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

7 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

No, I mean that you make CP mandatory for high lvl missions....  But when it comes to corpus, you turn around and make it mandatory that they deal toxic damage... But its not ok to expect people to use corrosive status weapons... 

 

It's contradicting that you expect people to build for CP so everyone can play as they like, and ignore the possible use of corrosive damage...

But for shields, you expect people to only use toxic damage sources... Instead of using the shield reduction aura.

 

*Edit* yeah, it seems smoother for console to auto-target enemies within a radius AoE. Have clones attack them as you cast it... Or the Neir clip too. 

Butfor PC, honestly it's not that much of a hindrance for me. I do think targeting issues are annoying, bit it doesn't break my gameplay. Would it be nicer/awesome if it did work that way? Of course! But I don't *need* it, even if I get targeting issues. 

Shields do not scale in the same way as armor though. If you hit for 200 damage if a target has a high shield you still do 200 damage. If you hit a high armor target with the same damage you hit for like 25 damage. On common mobs this isn't a huge deal. Shields have never been a huge deal no matter what the level. Bombards are currently the only real threat in the game and it is their armor and huge health pool that make them a threat all while being able to one shot nearly every base frame. Shields just aren't scary enough to justify players "specing" to kill them. Armor on the other hand is when it takes you main weapon/gun out of the picture entirely.

[Altre]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Shields do not scale in the same way as armor though. If you hit for 200 damage if a target has a high shield you still do 200 damage. If you hit a high armor target with the same damage you hit for like 25 damage. On common mobs this isn't a huge deal. Shields have never been a huge deal no matter what the level. Bombards are currently the only real threat in the game and it is their armor and huge health pool that make them a threat all while being able to one shot nearly every base frame. Shields just aren't scary enough to justify players "specing" to kill them. Armor on the other hand is when it takes you main weapon/gun out of the picture entirely.

Adding to this, from the wiki-"Against the large majority of enemies (and against Tenno) this damage bypasses shields to directly affect health, although it does not bypass armor."

@Maka-Cutting through shields is not a problem, but you can bypass a shield all together for a faster kill with this. This cannot be done with armor due to it negating or reducing some damage types.

I didn't create the game and I don't make the rules. When I was a wee tenno, people that ran higher tier content made me use these methods if I wanted in the group because various tested methods just worked. I don't tell anyone that they HAVE to play any specific way, but I do run a clan that helps low level players learn about the game and guide them to learn about what options are effective in various instances.

Viral and slash are another combo I forgot to mention that can be vital in high level instances. This isn't on topic, though, and I'm not debating what the "right way" to play the game is.

I'm certain that if you really liked Ash and were having the targeting issues that others are having, you would want them to find a better solution. I don't *need* the fix, but what's the point of them even having the frame if a basic mechanic for a core ability of his kit doesn't work as intended for a marginal amount of players? I don't *need* them to fix other frames issues, but i would rather them do it because I like seeing a happy community and a variety of frames in missions.

[Timberwolf581]

19 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Ash's 4th now doesn't slow you down. Dude, it's an amazing CC, can be used to clear trash mobs. You can use it, and keep moving. It is INSANE. Have you even played ash?

You know, I don't think I'll use Bladestorm anymore. I liked it before, but now I have to constantly spam my 3 at the targeted enemies just to have a chance at participating in something I should be doing myself anyway.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

7 hours ago, Timberwolf581 said:

You know, I don't think I'll use Bladestorm anymore. I liked it before, but now I have to constantly spam my 3 at the targeted enemies just to have a chance at participating in something I should be doing myself anyway.

I'm not sure if I am not understanding your point correctly but you will not need to repeatedly hit 3 to join in. You just have to press it one time on a marked target while your clones are already out... I agree with you but on the flip side I also understand the health reasons why it was changed. I feel like the entire process should be automatic with no exception but I understand that is my own opinion.

Edited February 21, 2018 by (XB1)Natfrog123

[Timberwolf581]

Just now, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

I'm not sure if I am not understanding your point correctly but you will not need to repeated hit 3 to join in. You just have to press it one time on a marked target while your clones are already out...

Sure, you have to press 3 only once... except you have to press 3 on an enemy which isn't already being engaged. And when the enemies are dying at breakneck speeds, your best chance for success is to spam 3 at all of them.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

Just now, Timberwolf581 said:

Sure, you have to press 3 only once... except you have to press 3 on an enemy which isn't already being engaged. And when the enemies are dying at breakneck speeds, your best chance for success is to spam 3 at all of them.

Ahh I understand what you are saying now. I have to agree with you there. They should just make it a toggle in the customization window. Auto join in ON/OFF. Could this solve that issue for players? 

However someone else brought up a point about it screwing over fatal teleport and I agree with that statement as well. Since Ash now has all this "freedom" but you take away his main offensive ability if you accidently target the wrong enemy.

[Timberwolf581]

Just now, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

However someone else brought up a point about it screwing over fatal teleport and I agree with that statement as well. Since Ash now has all this "freedom" but you take away his main offensive ability if you accidently target the wrong enemy.

I decided to try out fatal teleport, and while I think it would make for a neat alternative to bladestorm, the fact that it uses the standard melee animation rather than any of the bladestorm animations is a bit of a letdown.

[Hypernaut1]

hold 4 to opt-in is the fix i want for Ash

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Timberwolf581:

You know, I don't think I'll use Bladestorm anymore. I liked it before, but now I have to constantly spam my 3 at the targeted enemies just to have a chance at participating in something I should be doing myself anyway.

Well, that rework got pushed. Like, a lot. For several years now. Not enough people seemed to be stating positives about what it was and that's the result.

You're a little late to state your voice in that matter if that's where you stand and the fact remains that ash is significantly stronger now then he used to be. Why staying away? Embrace it. It's two times faster by default and you don't really have to participate in the animation on every occasion ya know. 

[Timberwolf581]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Well, that rework got pushed. Like, a lot. For several years now. Not enough people seemed to be stating positives about what it was and that's the result.

Well, while I enjoyed bladestorm, I never felt invested enough to actually defend it. For as nice the break of pace was, the animations were an absolute clusterfuck.

(Not to mention I only visit the warframe forums once every few weeks or so.)

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Why staying away? Embrace it. It's two times faster by default and you don't really have to participate in the animation on every occasion ya know. 

I used it to a take a very short break from all the running and shooting (and getting shot at). For me, Ash was never about killing crowds quickly.

And considering that bladestorm feels like something Ash is supposed to actively do, I feel lazy letting a bunch of holograms do the work.

 

I thought Fatal Teleport would be nice, except it's nothing more than the same old melee animation you get on stealth kills and the such.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Timberwolf581

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, Timberwolf581 said:

Well, while I enjoyed bladestorm, I never felt invested enough to actually defend it. For as nice the break of pace was, the animations were an absolute clusterfuck.

(Not to mention I only visit the warframe forums once every few weeks or so.)

I used it to a take a very short break from all the running and shooting (and getting shot at). For me, Ash was never about killing crowds quickly.

And considering that bladestorm feels like something Ash is supposed to actively do, I feel lazy letting a bunch of holograms do the work.

 

I thought Fatal Teleport would be nice, except it's nothing more than the same old melee animation you get on stealth kills and the such.

Join in with fatal TP?

[Maka.Bones]

10 hours ago, Altre said:

I'm certain that if you really liked Ash and were having the targeting issues that others are having, you would want them to find a better solution. I don't *need* the fix, but what's the point of them even having the frame if a basic mechanic for a core ability of his kit doesn't work as intended for a marginal amount of players? I don't *need* them to fix other frames issues, but i would rather them do it because I like seeing a happy community and a variety of frames in missions.

Yeah, I agree with you. That's why I said that the targeting issue should be fixed (make it more of a cone, that targets all the enemies in the cone). I just don't want to give Ash Neir's ability, or an auto-target bladestorm on PC, because then other salty players will complain about him.... and he gets put under the nerf radar again (just like they did to ember). I'd rather have a slight inconvenience, than another significant nerf to ash... Wouldn't you agree?

For consoles it's justifiable, but for PC... people are just gonna get salty and cry that ash needs to be nerfed again because he's too OP. So there needs to be some balance. 

[Hypernaut1]

The day DE caves in and makes being able to mark a room full enemies a simple mindless affair is the day they nerf his damage down to nothing. There is no way DE is going to allow a frame to mark a room for death and not even need to participate. You people don't know what you're asking for. 

[Altre]

Why would they have to nerf him? Have you read through the thread and actually considered points brought up? NO ONE WANTS INSTAKILL ON EVERYTHING. I've said many times now that they can make it limited to x clones attacking enemies based on duration and only have it work within sight based on range. Sooooooo simple. Maybe start with 3 clones at 100% and increase it by 1 every 33.33% put onto duration. They'll dance around killing things with some targeting logic applied and viola, no targeting issues.

NO ONE wants anything to be unbalanced. Fixating on that idea is going to keep this discussion from coming to a fruitful conclusion.

[Dragazer]

On 2/21/2018 at 8:48 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

The day DE caves in and makes being able to mark a room full enemies a simple mindless affair is the day they nerf his damage down to nothing. There is no way DE is going to allow a frame to mark a room for death and not even need to participate. You people don't know what you're asking for. 

Which is why I'm saying this could work instead: 

 

You aren't just marking the entire room mindlessly like old BS but at the same time you aren't going to be wasting time moving your mouse over for each individual target.

[Hypernaut1]

3 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Which is why I'm saying this could work instead: 

 

You aren't just marking the entire room mindlessly like old BS but at the same time you aren't going to be wasting time moving your mouse over for each individual target.

I mark groups of enemies easily enough already. Making the reticule bigger would make bladestorm ridiculous.

[Altre]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I mark groups of enemies easily enough already. Making the reticule bigger would make bladestorm ridiculous.

The issue is that not everyone is having the same luck with the targeting. Like I said to the other gentleman that was against changing it, you'd change your opinion if you were having the same issues. Please read what the issue is before arguing against change.

[Hypernaut1]

11 minutes ago, Altre said:

The issue is that not everyone is having the same luck with the targeting. Like I said to the other gentleman that was against changing it, you'd change your opinion if you were having the same issues. Please read what the issue is before arguing against change.

No thank you. The last thing I want is Ash to attract the kind of players that want to easily mark rooms for death to speed run through content. Its easy enough to mark enemies as is. I welcome him not being a favorite.

I don't want to repost my gameplay vid, but in my short clip I show how easy it is to mark enemies. It's JUST pointing at them. They get easily 2x marked too, which is more than enough for most enemies.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Altre]

58 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

No thank you. The last thing I want is Ash to attract the kind of players that want to easily mark rooms for death to speed run through content. Its easy enough to mark enemies as is. I welcome him not being a favorite.

I don't want to repost my gameplay vid, but in my short clip I show how easy it is to mark enemies. It's JUST pointing at them. They get easily 2x marked too, which is more than enough for most enemies.

If you're not willing to read what people have been discussing and proposing, why join in the discussion? You're not adding anything to the discussion but dissent without an open ear.

I hope I don't have to repeat this again, no one wants what you are claiming they want. We want a system that includes us. Targeting is working for you. Great! Not me. It doesn't mark enemies the the cursor blatantly passes over. Please refer to Dragazers link for an appropriate rework or get DE to make the redundant targeting for the current system work for everyone.

[Hypernaut1]

54 minutes ago, Altre said:

If you're not willing to read what people have been discussing and proposing, why join in the discussion? You're not adding anything to the discussion but dissent without an open ear.

I hope I don't have to repeat this again, no one wants what you are claiming they want. We want a system that includes us. Targeting is working for you. Great! Not me. It doesn't mark enemies the the cursor blatantly passes over. Please refer to Dragazers link for an appropriate rework or get DE to make the redundant targeting for the current system work for everyone.

I've read it. Unless your games is bugged, any enemy that cross your reticule becomes marked. Increasing that size would mean instantly marking 5+ enemies at a time, which given the strength of bladestorm, would be ridiculously overpowered. That's my opinion. 

I see nothing wrong with the marking ability... And that's with a controller. i don't have spaz out or wiggle to mark swaths of enemies for dead during a sortie. Any less inactivity would be be a setback. With the damage that he does, it's good that people need to put in a modicum of work to get kills.... Like aiming at the enemy in a shooter. I don't get how people claim to have such a hard time aiming at enemies in a shooter. You don't even need to focus on them, you don't need to ADS.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Combustionsquirrel]

I'm really surprised, given the title of this thread, no one has linked this image:

 

(credit to: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/39097r/what_i_see_looking_at_ash_prime_leaked_image/ )

Anyways, I do think the current marking system is problematic cuz it feels like you're just flailing around to mark everything you can, and while I'll admit I've only skimmed over this topic, the idea from reddit where his marking area is bigger seems like a step in the right direction. Also, as someone who was a big fan of ash back before the original change, I do really miss doing the stabbing yourself and the slower pacing enabling you to actually see Ash stabbing things. I don't care that it was slow, it made him feel so much more unique, and as for the tele opt-in, I found it hard to jump onto a target before they got stabbed to death when I was playing around with the Bladestorm change last night.

 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Combustionsquirrel

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Hypernaut1:

They get easily 2x marked too, which is more than enough for most enemies.

With how a basic level of strength is common, with how it does finisher damage, with how it scales off and generates combo, with how easy it is to maintain the combo counter (aka naramon) and with how each mark generates slash proccs for 307% additional finisher damage.... 2 marks is pretty much overkill for most enemys.

Edited February 25, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108