ForsakenEcho

ash is still on a wheelchair

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

It's far from trash, but a targeting area would be a good improvement. 

Yeah I don't literally mean trash, but there are just better choices for everything blade storm does.

Group AoE damage? Use your guns save energy as well 

Single target damage? use teleport+CL

Edited by Dragazer

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1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

That is a problem if it requires such precise aiming, you might as well just use the the gun anyways, saves energy and actually kills faster depending on the gun in question (launchers and other AoE types)

If the current Blade storm is not as bad as you say, lets give Mesa the same treatment and make her 4 perform the same way, having to mark each target to shoot.

People keep using this argument as if bladestorm isn't one of the highest damage dealing attacks in the game. Why?

If Mesa did insane finisher damage with EACH bullet, then yes, she would perform in similar fashion. If she could mark a bunch of enemies and unleash a bunch of auto-headshots from a sniper rifle, it could be a cool ability.

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34 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Yeah I don't literally mean trash, but there are just better choices for everything blade storm does.

Group AoE damage? Use your guns save energy as well 

Single target damage? use teleport+CL

 Ya, currently i use it mostly for the invulnerability since i don't have the rework on console yet. 

When i get it i figure it'll be a supplement to aoe damage with weapons rather than replacement. So I'll have to play around with it. 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Dragazer:

 

BTW Stealth multipliers are a joke now, 1 hit and the multiplier is gone, brush the enemy the multiplier is gone.

Now? Compared to what? Half a year into the games developement? Cause that's pretty much when it was reduced to one attack.

...not to mention that i had someone confirm me a while ago that it doesn't seem to reset but rather provide the multiplier permanently. 

But let's adress this gun>melee topic a bit... in what regard are guns supposed to be better then melee?

Do they provide more damage? Not really. Multipliers including stealth make a big difference. More dps? That one is for debate. They have range, thus operate faster. A gun can give you more dps when your envirement isn't crowdet, otherwise melee is better...

Now, Bladestorm provides melee with range and operates on combo multipliers.... they act simultaneous once activated... are guns better suited for this ability? No, they are not. You might as well play a buffer if that's what you're looking for in a frame. And don't get me started on the aiming...i've mained bladestorm even before the rework and not once have i had to specificly aim at enemys for them to get marked. Aiming was a requirement back on its original build. You had to mark as you had to sacrifice stats to maximise it, to challenge old mesas peacemaker by sniping enemys/waves in doorways. With its change and with how the game developed it then became unnecesarry. You sure can aim to mark but with how just moving, watching your envirement, with how just looking in directions you attack takes care of that perfectly fine, why would you?

 

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108

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1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Now? Compared to what? Half a year into the games developement? Cause that's pretty much when it was reduced to one attack.

...not to mention that i had someone confirm me a while ago that it doesn't seem to reset but rather provide the multiplier permanently. 

But let's adress this gun>melee topic a bit... in what regard are guns supposed to be better then melee?

Do they provide more damage? Not really. Multipliers including stealth make a big difference. More dps? That one is for debate. They have range, thus operate faster. A gun can give you more dps when your envirement isn't crowdet, otherwise melee is better...

Now, Bladestorm provides melee with range and operates on combo multipliers.... they act simultaneous once activated... are guns better suited for this ability? No, they are not. You might as well play a buffer if that's what you're looking for in a frame. And don't get me started on the aiming...i've mained bladestorm even before the rework and not once have i had to specificly aim at enemys for them to get marked. Aiming was a requirement back on its original build. You had to mark as you had to sacrifice stats to maximise it, to challenge old mesas peacemaker by sniping enemys/waves in doorways. With its change and with how the game developed it then became unnecesarry. You sure can aim to mark but with how just moving, watching your envirement, with how just looking in directions you attack takes care of that perfectly fine, why would you?

 

Loki and Ash have been around since the very beginning Closed Beta which was October 25th, 2012. Their cloak skills provided constant damage multipliers without fail. It was not until late June 2014 in which the multiplier was reduced to one attack.

Changes:

  • 13.8.1 Unlisted change: Enemies now have basic awareness on contact or sound of invisible units, and will investigate last known position of this sound/contact.  There are a number of threads bringing up issues/discussions with this that are being read and relayed, thank you for posting!

As you can see the changes were an unintended side effect

And then on January 17, 2017, we got: The Glast Gambit: Hotfix 19.6.3 in which it was fixed to constantly apply the multiplier as long as you were not in physical contact with the enemy.

Changes

  • Enemies no longer receive a mental perception of an attacker, but rather mental perception of the source object. This causes them to play a reaction and become alert, but not have any extra information about the player. Enemies that are shot with projectiles that are silent and/or without a sound effect will now report a visual perception (rather than doing nothing). Previously enemies knew the exact location of their attacker when taking damage, regardless of the source. 

 

After that it remained that way until Chains of Harrow: Hotfix 21.1.1 on July 20, 2017 where it is back to being 1 hit only.

The patch notes of this update makes zero mention of any changes to stealth, and DE has still not yet addressed this issue.

 

Why would you need someone else to confirm? test yourself. Go hit any enemy with melee while invis, any hit after the 1st loses its bonus damage.

The multiplier might as well be nonexistent on these frames now considering you are obviously going to hit more than once. 

The game was and is always going to be gun play focused, melee just happens to be an added bonus. Don't believe me? Just look at the bosses in this game. There are plenty of bosses that are completely impossible to do melee only: Lephantis, Vay Hek, Ruk, Lech Krill, Raptors, Juggernaut Behemoth. 

Name a boss that is melee only or that guns can't do the job?

There are also enemies that and complete suicide to melee against, such as nullfiers, comba, or scrambus which disable your powers if you get too close. Guns are clearly much more superior being able to deal with them at a safe distance. 

What makes melee good are the mods, namely bloodrush, Conditon Overload, and maiming strike, all of which Blade storm cannot make use of. The only thing BS shares with melee is the combo multiplier and steel charge, that is it. 

I didn't say guns are suited to be used with BS, I'm saying BS is completely outclassed by guns altogether.

Once again why should I bother with blade storm waving my cursor around every single enemy, when I can just use a gun to do the same exact action but to kill them at the same time for zero energy cost?

Your last arguments make zero sense you do in fact have to aim to use blade storm now, how else are you going to mark your enemies?. 

Edited by Dragazer
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3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People keep using this argument as if bladestorm isn't one of the highest damage dealing attacks in the game. Why?

If Mesa did insane finisher damage with EACH bullet, then yes, she would perform in similar fashion. If she could mark a bunch of enemies and unleash a bunch of auto-headshots from a sniper rifle, it could be a cool ability.

There plenty of things that deal much more damage than BS and don't come with the clunkiness to use. Chromatic blade, Artemis bow, peacemaker, Mirage and Octavia with their buffed up weapon damage. 

Innate finisher damage on BS is not unique anymore with the current slash meta on weapons, or the already existing corrosive projection setup.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Dragazer:

 

Your last arguments make zero sense you do in fact have to aim to use blade storm now, how else are you going to mark your enemies?. 

 

Try it. Just play, keep it active and watch enemys getting marked. You'd be suprised just how many enemys you mark by standart camera movement while fighting.

And excuse the exageration. Thanks for pointing out that you're refering to changes that are 4 years back after beeing 2 years in the game.

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108

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1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Try it. Just play, keep it active and watch enemys getting marked. You'd be suprised just how many enemys you mark by standart camera movement while fighting.

Maybe if you go melee only, but with guns if my cursor is on an enemy, I am going to shoot and kill it.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

And excuse the exageration. Thanks for pointing out that you're refering to changes that are 4 years back after beeing 2 years in the game.

Changes that were then fixed and explicitly mentioned in the patch notes to be fixed, only to then be stealth changed again 7 months later with absolutely no mention of it anywhere in the patch notes.

Edited by Dragazer

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47 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

There are also enemies that and complete suicide to melee against, such as nullfiers, comba, or scrambus which disable your powers if you get too close. Guns are clearly much more superior being able to deal with them at a safe distance. 

 

I didn't say guns are suited to be used with BS, I'm saying BS is completely outclassed by guns altogether.

Once again why should I bother with blade storm waving my cursor around every single enemy, when I can just use a gun to do the same exact action but to kill them at the same time for zero energy cost?

Your last arguments make zero sense you do in fact have to aim to use blade storm now, how else are you going to mark your enemies?. 

As a point of semantics, one of our primary gripes with Nullifiers that dates back to....their invention...was that they lacked strategy and we constantly found that spin attacks where the only reasonable way to destroy them reliably.  The biggest gripe this gave was the damage it does to buffer frames.  DE finally listened and made the bubble much more forgiving to gunfire and even gave it the weak spot.  Melee continues to be a great way to take care of them.  It's also a great way to deal with comba and scrambus, as well as bursa because it's convenient and easy to bother closing range rather than try to keep it and dodge fire.

As far as Ash goes, for me he's one of the "big three".  I use Frost, Rhino, and Ash for a ton of everything.  Harrow is making his way up the list and Loki hangs right in there(stealth duration is sometimes a real thing), but depending upon the mission, Ash is one of my go-to frames because he delivers both the safety of stealth and a handful of strong damage options.

You don't have to aim at enemies to mark them.  Everytime an enemy is "re-targeted" they will also receive a mark .  sweep around in their general direction and their marked.  sweep back the other direction and the second mark happens, then sweep back again(simulate "moving your head", as if you're sizing up the room and it'll be enough).  Bang, room marked.  The best time to use this is when needing to withdraw or as you enter a room.  Have it ready, mark it off, then let it rip.  It allows you to quickly mark off and kill enemies at times that you wouldn't want to be standing there shooting---because really, you're right, if you've got two to four seconds per enemy to stand around, you might as well shoot them.

  Having the ability to mass kill a whole room means you can take more targeted weaponry like the Tigris Prime(scary already, poop your pants scary with Ash's passive).  If you can mass kill a whole room with the Tigris faster than you can mark off a bladestorm, you're marking wrong or using it at times that it is unnecessary---and make no mistake, the original change was made as much to stop him from being a one button show as it was to cut down on his "cut scene" time.

I can get why some won't necessarily care for this mechanic, totally understandable.  I also understand why some didn't like the old mechanic.  I'd also like to see it have some more polish, and overall I'd rather have a flat energy cost than the climbing way it does now, though the new reduced cost is much better(you probably don't need bladestorm unless you're spending a hundred or more energy on it with this system either).

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9 hours ago, Altagraive said:

How the hell targeting works fine for me and not fine for others?

That's exactly the point of the thread. No one is complaining about how much damage it can do or whether or not it's overpowered.

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I did today's sortie with Ash and in no way was my weapons or anyone else killing faster than bladestorm. The marking mechanic is seemless. It takes a GLANCE to kill an enemy. 

With the new bladestorm change, I was marking rooms, moving on to next room and killing those enemies while clones kill marked targets. 

I really don't know how people are having so much trouble with marking. I don't find it clunky at all. 

Bladestorm also synergizes very well with a sniper. You can mark fodder while picking off high priority targets.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Dragazer:

Changes that were then fixed and explicitly mentioned in the patch notes to be fixed, only to then be stealth changed again 7 months later with absolutely no mention of it anywhere in the patch notes.

They say never touch a running system for a reason. I am honestly suprised that you are not suprised that the game is still running after all those years of significant changes to quite literally any content in the game.

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hace 2 horas, Hypernaut1 dijo:

I did today's sortie with Ash and in no way was my weapons or anyone else killing faster than bladestorm. The marking mechanic is seemless. It takes a GLANCE to kill an enemy. 

With the new bladestorm change, I was marking rooms, moving on to next room and killing those enemies while clones kill marked targets. 

I really don't know how people are having so much trouble with marking. I don't find it clunky at all. 

Bladestorm also synergizes very well with a sniper. You can mark fodder while picking off high priority targets.

Aside from buffing the aiming reticles width to Teleport levels (because TP has a wider Ash-sized "reticle" while BS has a pinpoint one for no godamn reason), reducing the cost to 6 default and replacing the "cheaper when invisible" gimmick that doesn't really make SScreen any special or synergy (dependency isn't synergy), changing SShadow to actually be affected by range (and probably leave a small cloud Allies can walk into to get a lingering invis) and making Rising Storm not useless cr*p, like maybe "Reduces the number of marks per enemy to one but makes clones attack all marked targets at once" or something else that is more useful than 3 sh*tty seconds of counter.

And then Ash is fine. Not super amaizing (because of the Shuriken-BS problem we have now, thanks DE) but fine (in a "okay, you can stop trying now, just leave Ash alone" way)

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On 14/02/2018 at 8:57 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't know why people find this so hard to understand. He's not made to mass kill trash mobs. 

That is a problem when 95% of the games content is a horde style shooter

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hace 22 minutos, Dragazer dijo:

That is a problem when 95% of the games content is a horde style shooter

And the enemies that are powerful enough (say: bosses) are resistant or flat out inmune to Ash's abilities.

Edited by Nazrethim
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vor einer Stunde schrieb Dragazer:

That is a problem when 95% of the games content is a horde style shooter

That is not a problem when 0% of the other frames perform any better 🤷

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23 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That is not a problem when 0% of the other frames perform any better 🤷

LOL

Mesa? Excal? Ivara? Mirage and Octavia with their buffed dmg on weapons?

inb4 muh finisher dmg: Nothing special, maybe if this was 2 years ago, but slash is meta on weapons, with many new mods (Hunter's munitions) and weapons making slash builds easier than ever to build for. Plus 4x cp has always been a thing.

Sad thing is, not only do these frames easily out-damage Ash, but they have hard cc abilties and buffs to help out their team. Ash has neither of those, his only selling point is damage, which is outclassed by frames that can deal more and then some with team utility buffs and hard cc.

inb4 muh augments: Augments shouldn't be required to make the frame worthwhile to even use. Smoke Shadow has a 5m unmoddable range so good luck with that. Seeking shuriken? see the argument on finisher dmg again

Edited by Dragazer
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11 hours ago, Thrymm said:

You don't have to aim at enemies to mark them.  Everytime an enemy is "re-targeted" they will also receive a mark .  sweep around in their general direction and their marked.  sweep back the other direction and the second mark happens

You literally just described aiming.

If you happen to be using Ignis and press fire as you are "sweeping" aka aiming they will most likely die right there.

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hace 5 horas, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

That is not a problem when 0% of the other frames perform any better 🤷

The only reason for that is that now we can keep shotting and melee'ing while the clones do the job. On it's own, BS is still too slow. It's more of a damage support thing now. And it only plays a part when your weapons start to fall off, so endurance levels, and even then BS falls off just as hard as weapons do. The reason it is usable now is because it's cost is reasonable (if invisiible) and you can continue to use better tools at your disposal while slowstorm does it's thing.

High damage doesn't compensate for the other flaws. Think of it like the transition from Warlock Burning Crusade to Warlock Lich King: Locks lost their top damage but made up for it with less clunky mechanics.

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Il y a 19 heures, Dragazer a dit :

Yeah I don't literally mean trash, but there are just better choices for everything blade storm does.

Group AoE damage? Use your guns save energy as well 

Single target damage? use teleport+CL

Have an extra hand stacking your combo meter while killing stuff while also proccing arcane trickery while being on your way. Bladestorm has its uses as higher and higher level enemies show up.

I don't know what people want anymore with Ash at this point.

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On 2/13/2018 at 1:33 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Welp, people like to cheese. Ash isn't a cheese frame. He sure can be used to spend days marking enemys trying to cheese but there's also another side to him.. one that allows you to play weapons, be it guns or melee, dispell enemys, perform finishers, all while having invisibility, one of the strongest defensive abilitys in his repertuar to mark enemys in a "passive" manner while simply playing your weapon so the magic can unfold...  The possibillity to perform the highest damage on short and long range simultaneous but what can you say....

Ash mains spent years degrading his potential to reach this end. Degrading the marking, which synergices perfect with active gameplay, his damage and dps, since marking isn't some autopilot aoe, his efficiency, which is perfectly fine if you look at it from a rational standpoint.... They've done all they could to make him as unappealing as anyhow possible.

Does this make him weak? No it doesn't....

Me, i give him about a month till people figure out how to play him. How to utilice him to be exactly what he is: the strongest damage dealer in the game. Can't fight propaganda without propper proof ya know. Give it time.

Who do you hit more than 2 times and they do not die? The marking mechanic is trash. It needs to just go away completely and we need the auto target system we had before with the current system of clones only/teleport to join in and the players allowed to attack "marked" enemies. No need for the trashy marking system. just get rid of it completely. So tired of the "press 4 and win" criers who still don't even use the frame. Ash's 4 is broken. Especially on console where AoE rules the game.

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8 hours ago, Dragazer said:

LOL

Mesa? Excal? Ivara? Mirage and Octavia with their buffed dmg on weapons?

inb4 muh finisher dmg: Nothing special, maybe if this was 2 years ago, but slash is meta on weapons, with many new mods (Hunter's munitions) and weapons making slash builds easier than ever to build for. Plus 4x cp has always been a thing.

Sad thing is, not only do these frames easily out-damage Ash, but they have hard cc abilties and buffs to help out their team. Ash has neither of those, his only selling point is damage, which is outclassed by frames that can deal more and then some with team utility buffs and hard cc.

inb4 muh augments: Augments shouldn't be required to make the frame worthwhile to even use. Smoke Shadow has a 5m unmoddable range so good luck with that. Seeking shuriken? see the argument on finisher dmg again

^^facts^^

4 Corrosive Projections and poof no armor making armor stripping and finisher damage 100% useless. Sure it's decent in single player but WHO WANTS TO PLAY ALONE?

Edited by (XB1)Natfrog123
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2 hours ago, MrForz said:

 I don't know what people want anymore with Ash at this point.

As many people have said the targeting mechanics are clunky and add unneccessary steps.

Something like Mesa Peacemaker reticle would be nice, you get a big AoE marking crosshair which shrinks as you mark more enemies. Perhaps the smaller the reticle, the more damage enemies take with each new mark. Otherwise the size can just remain the same althroughout as well. Another thing I'd like to see is the ability to apply all 3 marks on enemies right away, having to sweep over enemies 3 times is just clunky and pointlessly time consuming. Energy cost will be fine because BS refunds unused marks on targets killed early.

Also the fact that fatal teleport in unusable during BS should be adressed as well. Why not just press 4 again to opt in?

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Also I'd like to point out that each attack from bladestorm takes TIME. The marking mechanic takes WAY to long for a skill that takes even LONGER to do damage. If I'm going to aim at something chances are that enemy is probably already going to be shot by me and die anyways so why so many steps to use Blade Storm? Press a button and let it slowly do it's thing.

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