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ForsakenEcho
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On 3/10/2018 at 8:44 AM, Nazrethim said:

Sometimes it starts even though you teleport to a non-marked enemy, sometimes teleport works normally. It's really wierd.

I also support that position. Ash is good now. Still has some glaring design flaws (mainly Shuriken being 100% pointless without the augment and slightly less pointless with it and teleport being required to join in instead of holding 4 while it's going, so you can still teleport to enemies during BS instead of the ability being made nigh useless during it) but overall he is in a good spot now.

Ah I see so i'm not the only one who experience the weirdness of an opt-in BS. Good to know.

DE need to iron that out and make hold 4 to opt-in. so many times i wanted to LS Teleport an enemy but i ended up joining in BS and then be clueless about my location. Like a freaking switch teleport lol so annoying. 

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Seeing some of the comments, it's quite clear some people just shouldn't play him if they don't like his play style.

But he certainly is one of the strongest warframes, the real ninja and his dps is just incredible (here worth to note that yea, frame like quake banshee outdamages him on lvl 20 enemies but as soon as those enemies armor starts scaling up, most of those aoe "dps" frame players leave the mission after wave 10 on hydron or go to recruit chat asking for "Buff, EV, Corrosive projection"). Don't try to make Ash an AoE low lvl enemy killing cheese frame, he is good at what he can do already.

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vor 25 Minuten schrieb Redfeather75:

His old bladestorm was great. Hunter adrenaline+health conversion+vacuum sentinel was a combo I loved using. But I've moved on to better frames now.

What keeps you from using it exactly? I mean the actuall attack is 2 times faster now. 3 times when you teleport to any enemy. And you still pick up orbs when doing that.

 

Hell, you can literally run to orbs now.

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49 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

What keeps you from using it exactly? I mean the actuall attack is 2 times faster now. 3 times when you teleport to any enemy. And you still pick up orbs when doing that.

 

Hell, you can literally run to orbs now.

I get shaky hands in stressful situations. I'd mark enemies in advance, and when things got hectic, I'd use bladestorm for a time-out. The bladestorm cutscene would play out and replenish shields plus grant armour from health conversion+vacuum. It was perfect for me the way it was. At least I've found out since then that there are plenty of frames with better survivability and room clearing ability.

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3 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

I get shaky hands in stressful situations. I'd mark enemies in advance, and when things got hectic, I'd use bladestorm for a time-out. The bladestorm cutscene would play out and replenish shields plus grant armour from health conversion+vacuum. It was perfect for me the way it was. At least I've found out since then that there are plenty of frames with better survivability and room clearing ability.

Just press 3 after you press 4.  Literally the same thing as before.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 3/19/2018 at 1:20 AM, RealPandemonium said:

Just press 3 after you press 4.  Literally the same thing as before.

Yet again another solo player that has no concept of time. This game is all about time. in an even half way decent group you do not have time to do these things. You do not have time to mark enemies, you do not have time to press more buttons, and you do not have time to stand around waiting for damage to happen only to have an "opt in" method that destroys the use of another skill. 3 on an unmarked enemy (or try to anyway) and still get forced to "opt in" when that was not your intention AT ALL.

 With the invulnerable enemies gone all we need now is the auto marking system we had before to make the class good again. 

 Also please do not quote me expecting a reply because I do not care what you think of my opinion and you are not going to change it. I stopped spending money in this game when they BROKE Ash to begin with where I was spending REAL money in the game before hand. Why did i spend money before? I enjoyed my favorite class and that was all I cared about playing. I do not enjoy the feeling of any other class or the current Ash system so I do not hand money over to a company that butchers my class instead of fixing the ONE issue people had with Ash (invulnerable enemies). Sure the animation was being complained about by some people and I can understand that argument. But to rework the skill completely and leave in the the only other issue people had with the skill? As a consumer I do not support bad development. You had a successful game and instead of appealing to the masses with your successful game you "balance" it and take all the fun away from it and lose customers. Oh well that is on you guys (DE) I guess.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Hypernaut1:

Anyone having trouble being effective with Ash needs to look elsewhere for easy spammable kills. Mesa is a good choice, but be warned, you have to swivel the camera.

Oh can you please shut up with that "ash player who complain about ash are butthurt noobidi noob noobs, while i am not even a ash player but so pro with him - git gut" ... That's one of the most toxic behavior you can bring into a forum. 

~99% of the Ash player have no problem being effective with Ash - but because of the point you brag about (not being an Ash player) you will never experience the negativ aspects we are talking about.

Those are experiences made while running Ash 10.000 in a row (exaggerated example).

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4 hours ago, Somi_xD said:

Oh can you please shut up with that "ash player who complain about ash are butthurt noobidi noob noobs, while i am not even a ash player but so pro with him - git gut" ... That's one of the most toxic behavior you can bring into a forum. 

~99% of the Ash player have no problem being effective with Ash - but because of the point you brag about (not being an Ash player) you will never experience the negativ aspects we are talking about.

Those are experiences made while running Ash 10.000 in a row (exaggerated example).

Ummm....Ash is one of my most used frames... And I probably have 3k+ hours in Warframe. 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Hypernaut1:

Ummm....Ash is one of my most used frames... And I probably have 3k+ hours in Warframe. 

IF this is really the case, then i am sorry about being that rude - i thought you are not an Ash player because of the "conversation" you had with Naz.

You mentioned, that you tried Ash in a sortie or trial and argued that you killed everything even if you are not that Ash player and your build was not the best (at least thats what i remember)

But my mainpoint is still valid - most things in ash threads i read from you os this "git gut or stop playing Ash" behavior, you are not the only one who can use Ash very efficient, and still we are allowed to complain about things that could improve QoL for Ash, you know (and even if you don't like suggestions from other player, your allowed to post your opinion and discuss, but not to attack them)

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2 hours ago, Somi_xD said:

IF this is really the case, then i am sorry about being that rude - i thought you are not an Ash player because of the "conversation" you had with Naz.

You mentioned, that you tried Ash in a sortie or trial and argued that you killed everything even if you are not that Ash player and your build was not the best (at least thats what i remember)

But my mainpoint is still valid - most things in ash threads i read from you os this "git gut or stop playing Ash" behavior, you are not the only one who can use Ash very efficient, and still we are allowed to complain about things that could improve QoL for Ash, you know (and even if you don't like suggestions from other player, your allowed to post your opinion and discuss, but not to attack them)

You don't think his recent change was a huge QoL for him? For me personally, is almost brings his killing to pre marking levels. 

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hace 7 horas, Hypernaut1 dijo:

You don't think his recent change was a huge QoL for him? For me personally, is almost brings his killing to pre marking levels. 

It actually takes his killing beyond pre-marking levels as he can kill during it trough other means.

Now the only things needed for the frame are some minor tweaks:

-make FT's autoteleport part of the basic ability, with the augment adding the energy refund+damage

-make SShadow leave a short time smoke cloud allies can go trough (or at the very least allow the friendly cloaking to be affected by power range)

-make BS op-in be activated by pressing 4 again and separate it already from Teleport.

-Tweak or rework Shuriken to be less of a dead ability. Seriously, outside of the augment and it's arguably niche armor strip the ability is 100% pointless by comparison to the cheaper, faster and more effective Blade Storm.

Edited by Nazrethim
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Yes, as everyone says Ash is one of the strongest DPS frames. But even with that fact, he's definitely not a frame you see people running with commonly. He may have the best DPS stats, but right now his kit is just a complete mess in the way it's presented. More than a few frames are a complete mess at the moment. That's why people don't use Ash. 

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9 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:
 

Yes, as everyone says Ash is one of the strongest DPS frames. But even with that fact, he's definitely not a frame you see people running with commonly. He may have the best DPS stats, but right now his kit is just a complete mess in the way it's presented. More than a few frames are a complete mess at the moment. That's why people don't use Ash. 

I don't see the fact that he's not a frame that people run with commonly, to be a bad thing. I've yet to see a non cheese frame that was popular. 

Common use =/= good design

Common use = simple design/easy kills

Edited by Hypernaut1
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1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Yes, as everyone says Ash is one of the strongest DPS frames. But even with that fact, he's definitely not a frame you see people running with commonly. He may have the best DPS stats, but right now his kit is just a complete mess in the way it's presented. More than a few frames are a complete mess at the moment. That's why people don't use Ash. 

BINGO. DPS was never the factor that determined if players used a frame or not. It has always been about style and utility. A day 1 Ash player could not achieve spam 4 and win even back pre-nurf. You have to take time to build him correctly. Damage does not determine whether or not a frame will be used or not in this game if so you would see nothing but Octavia running around. Unkillable perm stealth damage scaling endlessly but yet very few people use her? People play what they enjoy. If the joy is taken out of a class or doesn't exist in the first place....kinda where Ash is right now.... then why even play the game at all? I do not play anymore... So don't bother telling me to move on as I already have... but if if for some reason DE decides to listen and fix Ash back to the pre-nerf I will 100% return to the game and start spending my money in the game again. If not then no sweat off my back. 

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1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Common use =/= good design

Common use = simple design/easy kills

That's very backward logic both in WF and in real life.

Apple's iPhone blew up because it was found to be the most user friendly and easy to use phone at the time. So the fact that basically everyone uses Apple products these days means it's not good design?

Common use does equal good design in the large majority cases. So I stand by my previous statement; Ash is a complete mess in the terms of current design.

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

That's very backward logic both in WF and in real life.

Apple's iPhone blew up because it was found to be the most user friendly and easy to use phone at the time. So the fact that basically everyone uses Apple products these days means it's not good design?

Common use does equal good design in the large majority cases. So I stand by my previous statement; Ash is a complete mess in the terms of current design.

 

That should be read as common use doesn't always equal good design.... ESPECIALLY in Warframe. How could you call that backwards logic? Are not items nerfed almost monthly because of player abuse? Wasnt Ash's first bladestorm commonly used because it was badly designed and garnered easy kills? Wasnt the telos boltace commonly used because if it's bad design getting easy kills?

I stand by my statement that Ash is not a badly designed frame. His effectiveness increases as enemies get tougher. That's how an assassin frame should work. He's not made to decimate low level mobs faster than everyone. That's when he can hang back. Leave the trash mobs to others.

Your real world iPhone example does not fit this conversation. This is a video game. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That should be read as common use doesn't always equal good design.

Most of the time it does. Yes, a weapon that blows everyone up instantly with no effort is bad design. But that's not the case with Ash is it. He's a case of brilliant stats, wrapped in bad design. 

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Wasnt Ash's first bladestorm commonly used because it was badly designed and garnered easy kills?

Nuke abilities are not always bad design when done properly. Ashes old Bladestorm is a perfect example of this actually. All people really wanted was for the enemies to not be invincible when Ash targeted them and to remove the forced camera. The ability was fine other than that, since it took a little time to kill all marked enemies instead of everything in a mile radius died within micro-seconds like Nuke Saryn. But DE just decided to destroy the ability instead. There are plenty of weapons/frames in this game that have easy kill abilities, an example being Equinox. You could argue she is even worse than Ash, because at least he had to target someone to initiate his killing spree. Yet she stays as she is and Ash gets a nerf up the bum.

Now, hardly anyone uses Ash for that exact reason. His fourth ability was a vital part of his image. Without it he was just a less effective Loki with some throwing knives and an instant-kill-one-singular-enemy attack.

13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I stand by my statement that Ash is not a badly designed frame.

And I stand by mine that he is a frame with great potential, but right now his design/presentation is very flawed.

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Good effectiveness increased as enemies get tougher. That's how an assassin frame should work.

Oh you're not going to be THAT guy are you?

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hace 2 horas, Hypernaut1 dijo:

I don't see the fact that he's hot a frames people run with commonly to be a bad thing. I've yet to see a non cheese frame that was popular. 

Common use =/= good design

Common use = simple design/easy kills

 

hace 2 horas, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 dijo:

That's very backward logic both in WF and in real life.

Apple's iPhone blew up because it was found to be the most user friendly and easy to use phone at the time. So the fact that basically everyone uses Apple products these days means it's not good design?

Common use does equal good design in the large majority cases. So I stand by my previous statement; Ash is a complete mess in the terms of current design.

 

Hypernaut is on the money here.

For comparison look at two classes in WoW:

The Monk has been a magnificent design since the start. The brewmaster could (pre-Legion) cheese major raid fights via the interaction with the statue to put Guard on the whole raid. It also put out so much healing for a tank as if you just ported in another healer. Wind Walker had an excellent combo system that actually encouraged to switch, mix and match attacks rather than having a set rotation. Mist Weaver was designed around healing trough dps, and had a fluid dps rotation that, believe it or not, healers have been asking since vanilla wow.

How comes then the Monk is the least played classs in the game? Community perception. It was because of the pandas which made the monk to be considered a joke class.

 

Now here comes another: Assassination Rogues.

For most of Legion, Assassination was considered "the best" class because, shockingly, had good dps and simple rotation, and by simple I mean "apply dots then do some basic attacks while waiting for dots and cooldowns to come back", which for anyone looking for excitement was boring as hell.

Simple Design doesn't equal good design. High Dps or inmortality aren't either. Engaging, Fun and somewhat challenging (easy to learn, difficult to master) gameplay is what good design is.

A character or class may work, but that doesn't mean it's well designed. People think Ash is weak right now, that is not the case, the change to BS made a huge impact. It's not exactly a mass nuker, but it's certainly one of the strongest dps. Yet he still has flaws that need to be adressed. Though many of the flaws stem directly or indirectly from other core flaws in WFs gameplay that DE refuses to adress (outdated resource system, enemy scaling issues, power creep, grind over skill design for higher content, cheese mechanics on both players and enemies, etc etc)

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Ash isnt perfect. No frame is. He's still good at what he does. 

a few changes i would like to see

1. Hold 4 to opt in bladestorm. Currently, its clunky enough to where i never bother to join in anymore. There's no major advantage to doing so anyway. It's mostly visual.

2. Shuriken tosses individual clones on marked enemies without activating BS on all enemies. non-augment shuriken has no real use outside of low levels. a clone is cheaper, stronger and more accurate. I honestly dont know what they could do to make it a viable part of his kit by itself. 

 

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