Why is the Plasmor so weak now?

[Thrymm]

Headshots have a x2 multiplier.  This is factual.  This means that every non-crit headshot does twice as much damage as a headshot does.  When dealing with crits, the actual per opponent damage reduction is several times that---greater than a 50% reduction on a per crit headshot basis(because crits have an additional modifier, which is doubled on headshots).  I'll let you figure out for yourself how much damage reduction that is in total.

A few interesting facts about the Arca Plasmor:

1.  It can still headshot.  Yes, indeed, it still checks for and triggers all benefits of headshots.  All mods and abilities that have an "on headshot" criteria still work with the Arca Plasmor.

2.   Because of number one, it works with all headshot criteria mods----including lasting covenant.  So let's take the whole "this got nerfed because of the Harrow augment" idea and throw it right out the window.

3.  The weapon, quite simply, appears to have a static x1 modifier to headshots.  That is to say, when a headshot lands it does the same damage as a body shot.....times one.  I have not found any exceptions that raise the multiplier above x1, ergo, it does no bonus damage on headshots but still does normal damage(making that math work is how they screwed it up at the initial patch launch, incidentally, and is probably related to the x2 modifier being hardcoded to virtually everything else in the game).

4.  Contrary to what has been suggested in the past, this weapon does not "headshot every time", a myth that went hand in hand with the Harrow augment idea.  Harrow is, again, the best test bed to see this.  Use his "3" ability and notice your energy gain.  While headshots are relatively easy to hit, you will by no means be landing them on everything.  In fact, as best I could see, my headshot rate was about the same as other large area/punch through weapons like the Ignis.

5.  It uses shotgun status mechanics, but only has one "pellet"(shotguns split their status chance per pellet at every number except 100%, at which point they are guaranteed to proc status).  Because of this, its effective status chance is the same as it is on paper, and is capable of applying status to everything the pellet touches.

As far as "weak" now......I'm not so sure.  Arguably, building it as a crit weapon is dead and if you're still trying to go this route, that's probably where the trouble lies.  It has a low multiplier and no headshot multiplier, so relying on singular large hits isn't really a thing it does well anymore.  It is noticeably and markedly weaker for this right now.  Expect to take multiple shots to bring down heavies.  Arguably, its crit ability is so poor that I don't think it's even particularly good for a hybrid weapon.

The place is shines, however, is crowd control and DoT application status.  Since it has base radiation damage, it can be modded for toxin or gas while maintaining the radiation proc and you'll often and you'll spread each a great deal through any crowd you fire it into.  Heavies won't necessarily die, but they will most likely not be firing back at you either due to the radiation proc and innate impact proc on hit.  Light targets will generally die on impact and at high sortie levels they will die within a tick or two from the toxin proc.  The weapon also works well with a corrosive/fire blend that also delivers solid CC and ups its damage potential on subsequent hits.

Overall, I'm not sold on the idea that the headshot removal was really necessary, but I do still think it is a useful weapon and has its place.  In the end, it didn't go in the bin for me but for most higher level work I usually take something different----but I never found it all that great for that stuff anyway.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

 

Harrow got an augment related to headshots and someone at DE must've thought the arca plasmor would be too good with it.

And they left the other Mass AoE headshot Shotgun in-tact...er, buffed the Critical chance of the Wave of Pellets Kohm (Punch-through and all)

 

Seriously Kohm is just as Headshot capable as the Arca Plasmor was. Aim slightly up and spool away...very easy to see registered headshots with Harrow.

[PatternistSlave]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

And they left the other Mass AoE headshot Shotgun in-tact...er, buffed the Critical chance of the Wave of Pellets Kohm (Punch-through and all)

 

Seriously Kohm is just as Headshot capable as the Arca Plasmor was. Aim slightly up and spool away...very easy to see registered headshots with Harrow.

I didn't say it made any sense, but he asked why.  Find it pretty hard to believe a lone weapon good at headshots out of nowhere gets nerfed in the patch a Harrow mod involving headshots is released and it's unrelated. 

Btw, if DE rebalanced Rivens the Kohm would likely not be what it is either.  Currently they're ignoring some of the glaring "inconsistencies" lets call them.

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Yet you were the one that said...

Which has a negative connotation, does it not? Most of you high level players are obsessed with DPS and KPS, and your statement implies that the removal of the multiplier HURTS the weapon, which it does not.

At any rate, the Plasmor can readily handle Sortie 2 content even with this "50% reduction" / fix. You just can't cheese super-high level content as easily as you used to...which IMO is a very good thing. 

Most of you kids whine about the lack of challenge in this, yet the reason there's no challenge is because most of the higher level weapons can be made powerful enough to remove and trivialize the high-level content that's supposed to offer us challenge. The only way to make high-level content challenging again is to restrict the power we're capable of inflicting.

I'm not saying that's what DE did with the Plasmor: I think the tweak they made to headshot multipliers was indeed a fix so the weapon could work in its intended role as a crowd killer and not be overpowered. However, it did have the unintended affect of reeling in the weapon's capability of trivializing high-level content - and frankly that's good for the game.

Stating a fact, that there is a reduction in overall dps, is not positive or negative. It is simply a statement.

 

The gun would get headshots nearly all of the time. That is problematic. Your belief that I am against it being reduced is your problem. I don't care that it was changed I was just clarifying the general effect the change had.

 

But thanks for the entertaining misinterpretation of my reply. It was the highlight to an otherwise stressful day.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

I didn't say it made any sense, but he asked why.  Find it pretty hard to believe a lone weapon good at headshots out of nowhere gets nerfed in the patch a Harrow mod involving headshots is released and it's unrelated. 

Btw, if DE rebalanced Rivens the Kohm would likely not be what it is either.  Currently they're ignoring some of the glaring "inconsistencies" lets call them.

Strongly concur.

[MirageKnight]

23 hours ago, Leqesai said:

-snip-

Your point was about to be taken and I was ready to apologize...until you decided to be insulting and condescending. If it weren't for that last line of yours, I'd be far more receptive to what you had to say.

Instead, you blew it. In addition to coming off as being a bit presumptuous and passive-aggressive, you're also a bit rude. And yes you left out critical information that would have changed initial perceptions greatly and all this could have been avoided.

Well done.

Quote

DE rebalanced Rivens

Being completely RNG generated, Rivens are not even REMOTELY balanced.

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Find it pretty hard to believe a lone weapon good at headshots out of nowhere gets nerfed in the patch a Harrow mod involving headshots is released and it's unrelated.

IMO you're being a bit paranoid. The augment revealed an oversight on DE's part, one they simply cant ignore, so they fixed it. Given the facts that the Plasmor's coverage is pretty wide, the damage and status chance being fairly high, and the "projectile" has punch-through, the Plasmor is obviously meant for crowd killing. It doesn't NEED a headshot multiplier.

Quote

Currently they're ignoring some of the glaring "inconsistencies" lets call them.

Then they should fix said inconsistencies, no? It would also be very constructive if those inconsistencies were pointed out for them, because honestly the devs do need to be frequently reminded of long standing issues.

Edited February 16, 2018 by MirageKnight

[DiabolusUrsus]

22 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Stating a fact, that there is a reduction in overall dps, is not positive or negative. It is simply a statement.

 

The gun would get headshots nearly all of the time. That is problematic. Your belief that I am against it being reduced is your problem. I don't care that it was changed I was just clarifying the general effect the change had.

 

But thanks for the entertaining misinterpretation of my reply. It was the highlight to an otherwise stressful day.

Single-sentence contrary replies without additional context come off as flippant, especially in written form without tonal and body-language cues to show otherwise.

You are 100% at fault for any potential misinterpretation of your post, because you completely neglected to include critical information that people lacking ESP have no way to obtain.

Ok, lack of headshots is a fairly large nerf. Point made. You shouldn't be surprised when people assume you are against the nerf based off of what you said, though, and they aren't stupid for misinterpreting an ambiguous response.

[-Trey-]

It's actually quite massive nerf, especially if you build it for gas and aim slightly above their heads. All those gas procs end up dealing significantly less dmg, especially in crowds. It's just that to really notice it u'd have to do some endurance runs with it, any normal low level content (which also includes sorties) is still walk in the park. I would rather them buff up enemies instead of nerfing weapons.

[AzureTerra]

If you built it for getting headcrits then yeah its prob going to have lost some shine, mine still kills things with big seething ball(s) of Radiation and what doesn't die will fight each other till i look at them again

[DiabolusUrsus]

10 hours ago, -Trey- said:

It's actually quite massive nerf, especially if you build it for gas and aim slightly above their heads. All those gas procs end up dealing significantly less dmg, especially in crowds. It's just that to really notice it u'd have to do some endurance runs with it, any normal low level content (which also includes sorties) is still walk in the park. I would rather them buff up enemies instead of nerfing weapons.

Endurance. Runs. Are. Not. Supposed. To. Be. Balanced!!!!!!!!!!

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

2 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

If you built it for getting headcrits then yeah its prob going to have lost some shine, mine still kills things with big seething ball(s) of Radiation and what doesn't die will fight each other till i look at them again

That status chance though! It is such a tease!

[MirageKnight]

12 hours ago, -Trey- said:

It's just that to really notice it u'd have to do some endurance runs with it,

Endurance runs are NOT intended to be balanced. Just an FYI.

12 hours ago, -Trey- said:

I would rather them buff up enemies instead of nerfing weapons

Then people will just ask for demand more power creep, then complain about the lack of challenge in the game and ask for tougher enemies again, then complain about how those enemies are too tough and how we need better gear to deal with them and progress...

You see where I'm going with this, right?

What DE needs to do to is to stop catering to try-hards and inflicting stupidly powerful enemies and stupidly powerful gear that's capable of trivializing said enemies that are meant to slow down and ultimately stop progression.

Instead, all weapons, mods, abilities, etc need to be brought to a point where existing content starts to become an actual, reasonable challenge again. Needless to say, that will involve nerfing OP things as well as buffing older, neglected items (which DE has actually been doing very recently). 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

12 hours ago, -Trey- said:

It's actually quite massive nerf, especially if you build it for gas and aim slightly above their heads. All those gas procs end up dealing significantly less dmg, especially in crowds. It's just that to really notice it u'd have to do some endurance runs with it, any normal low level content (which also includes sorties) is still walk in the park. I would rather them buff up enemies instead of nerfing weapons.

Yeah, I’ve noticed the big dip in damage with my Gas built Arca Plasmor as well. It may feel like a bandaid solution, but I feel like if you run a Jetsream Zephyr you can mitigate the weapon’s damage fall-off and get whatever mass damage you can get from it. It’s not a erfect solution, and I assume people are doing this already, but this is what I did to compensate with the patch.

[DatDarkOne]

14 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Instead, all weapons, mods, abilities, etc need to be brought to a point where existing content starts to become an actual, reasonable challenge again. Needless to say, that will involve nerfing OP things as well as buffing older, neglected items (which DE has actually been doing very recently). 

Thank goodness I'm not the only one to see this.  I think the changes DE has been making recently are just the first steps to something larger in the near future.  

[-Trey-]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

Endurance runs are NOT intended to be balanced. Just an FYI.

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Endurance. Runs. Are. Not. Supposed. To. Be. Balanced!!!!!!!!!!

Endurance runs are where you see difference, everything besides that in this game is a 1 shot simulator where you overkill enemies by 5-10 times more than their current hp. Normal content will never be balanced and plasmor nerf really didn't do anything in normal content, majority of weapons 1 shot said normal content or 1 shot entire crowds like whips can do. That's why you go to endurance runs and judge there what really changed. For plasmor to be "balanced" on the star chart it would need to lose another 70% of dmg, which will obviously never happen. Considering absurd power some weapons have i'd say they actually do want you to take them to said endurance runs, not to mention Items like CL daggers that were quite obviously created having said endurance runs in mind. Just na FYI.

To me they would have to first nerf Scoliac for this to make some sense, which can have more range than plasmor, requires no ammo/reloads/aiming and has scaling dmg with combo counter.

Either way I don't really care, but it is a big nerf if you use it where difference can be seen.

 

There is also no big plan to balance everything in future, if there was recent huge list of buffs many of which made me raise my eyebrow would not be a thing. They simply pick whatever is used too much and nerf it so it's used less. Except whips, they are exempt for some reason.

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by -Trey-

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Endurance runs are where you see difference

Except it doesn't really matter, unless of course you're part of the try-hard crowd that needs to trivialize as much high level content as possible.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

...not to mention Items like CL daggers that were quite obviously created having said endurance runs in mind.

Oh that's a good one... Prove it.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Either way I don't really care,

Yet everything else you've said implies you DO care to some extent.

 

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

There is also no big plan to balance everything in future

So you're saying that this update below... 

 

...had nothing to do with balance. An update where a bunch of primaries and secondaries got tweaked. DE also mentioned that melee weapons and beam / continuous weapons would be addressed soon. Note where Rebecca says "(Melee + Beam currently not included)".

On a side note.

A lot of players don't seem to understand that there's a reason why after a certain enemy level, the difficulty (armour and damage) scales up much more sharply than before. Those upper enemy levels are only seen in Endless missions and Sorties for a reason, and that's to limit player progression and force the player to ultimately quit and leave. To slow down the player and ultimately stop them. Like it or not, that's a fact.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Endurance runs are where you see difference, 

Then Plasmor is fine; no need to worry about the difference because...

Endurance runs are not supposed to be balanced.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

everythingbesides that in this game is a 1 shot simulator where you overkill enemies by 5-10 times more than their current hp. 

Irrelevant; Plasmor is a high-tier weapon. Obviously it is going to be strong against low-level enemies.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Normalcontent will never be balanced

That doesn't mean we should balance around super high levels where the only viable method of play is cheese. That greatly constricts the dynamic of normal play over time.

Level 40 used to be the old level 100! Yayyyyy powercreep! And it was made worse by people continually giving feedback based on stupidly scaled enemies.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

and plasmor nerf really didn't do anything in normal content, majority of weapons 1 shot said normal content or 1 shot entire crowds like whips can do.

Then there's no problem with the nerf.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

That's why you go to endurance runs and judge there what really changed. For plasmor to be "balanced" on the star chart it would need to lose another 70% of dmg, which will obviously never happen. Considering absurd power some weapons have i'd say they actually do want you to take them to said endurance runs, not to mention Items like CL daggers that were quite obviously created having said endurance runs in mind. Just na FYI.

No.

You remember that endurance runs are not balanced and stop using them for balance purposes.

CL was also more likely introduced because people noticed daggers were pretty pointless for stealth and outperformed by "non-stealthy" weapons like hammers and heavy blades.

So, in classic DE fashion they band-aided it with a cheese mod instead of just boosting dagger finisher damage like rational people.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

To me they would have to first nerf Scoliac for this to make some sense, which can have more range than plasmor, requires no ammo/reloads/aiming and has scaling dmg with combo counter.

Either way I don't really care, but it is a big nerf if you use it where difference can be seen.

Except where it can be seen isn't used for the scope of balance changes, so it's a non-issue.

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

There is also no big plan to balance everything in future, if there was recent huge list of buffs many of which made me raise my eyebrow would not be a thing. They simply pick whatever is used too much and nerf it so it's used less. Except whips, they are exempt for some reason.

Melee changes are forthcoming, just not done yet.

And just because DE isn't perfect at balancing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

[Thrymm]

2 hours ago, -Trey- said:

There is also no big plan to balance everything in future, if there was recent huge list of buffs many of which made me raise my eyebrow would not be a thing. They simply pick whatever is used too much and nerf it so it's used less. Except whips, they are exempt for some reason.

 

Actually........

The huge list of buffs brought most weapons into more or less sortie ranges.  They mostly peter out shortly thereafter.

The Plasmor nerf brought it....into sortie ranges(I killed Vor and everything in the room with it this week, handily, I might add).  It peters out somewhat after that.

The current adjustments, both directions, brought a whole lot of weapons a whole lot closer together in overall capability, and they brought them to a noticeable level point in terms of where they maintain it----Sortie 3.  I really doubt this is coincidence, and this big list was not piecemeal, it was all encompassing(virtually every category not looked at has been slated to be handled in the future).

[-Trey-]

33 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Except it doesn't really matter, unless of course you're part of the try-hard crowd that needs to trivialize as much high level content as possible.

I'm part if the crowd that enjoys having fun against enemies that don't die from 1 hit.

33 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Oh that's a good one... Prove it.

It's common sense.

33 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Yet everything else you've said implies you DO care to some extent.

I care about having fun.

33 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

 

So you're saying that this update below... 

 

...had nothing to do with balance. An update where a bunch of primaries and secondaries got tweaked. DE also mentioned that melee weapons and beam / continuous weapons would be addressed soon. Note where Rebecca says "(Melee + Beam currently not included)".

You were talking about weapons being nerfed for normal content to be challenging. Almost everything there got buffed.

 

33 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

 

On a side note.

A lot of players don't seem to understand that there's a reason why after a certain enemy level, the difficulty (armour and damage) scales up much more sharply than before. Those upper enemy levels are only seen in Endless missions and Sorties for a reason, and that's to limit player progression and force the player to ultimately quit and leave. To slow down the player and ultimately stop them. Like it or not, that's a fact.

 

Actually plenty of people understands it, sadly currently you have to go far into endless to have fun. Unless you enjoy 1 shotting low level enemies.

[-Trey-]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Then Plasmor is fine; no need to worry about the difference because...

Endurance runs are not supposed to be balanced.

Again nothing is this game is balanced.

 

Quote

Irrelevant; Plasmor is a high-tier weapon. Obviously it is going to be strong against low-level enemies.

Everything is strong agains low level enemies. It's mid tier weapon currently too.

Quote

That doesn't mean we should balance around super high levels where the only viable method of play is cheese. That greatly constricts the dynamic of normal play over time.

Level 40 used to be the old level 100! Yayyyyy powercreep! And it was made worse by people continually giving feedback based on stupidly scaled enemies.

Nobody said everything should be balanced vs super high level content. We are simply discussing nerfs to plasmor which are VERY visible. But maybe people enjoy playing against scaled enemies, maybe you don't but others might.

Quote

Then there's no problem with the nerf.

Dmg was decreased quite a bit, i'd say people who invested time and often money into something that got nerfed have right to get some answers.

Quote

No.

You remember that endurance runs are not balanced and stop using them for balance purposes.

CL was also more likely introduced because people noticed daggers were pretty pointless for stealth and outperformed by "non-stealthy" weapons like hammers and heavy blades.

So, in classic DE fashion they band-aided it with a cheese mod instead of just boosting dagger finisher damage like rational people.

I'm using them for dmg comparing purposes and I will continue doing it because they are part of this game. You compare performance of weapons against high level enemies because almost everything 1 shots low level ones. CL fits perfectly scaling enemies tho, completely going around armor and hp that keeps increasing. I'd say they had that in mind aswell, feel free to prove me wrong.

Quote

Except where it can be seen isn't used for the scope of balance changes, so it's a non-issue.

Except normal "balance" does not exist, everything dies 1 shot. Pre nerf, post nerf, with half mods missing. So you compare it against high level enemies.

 

Quote

Melee changes are forthcoming, just not done yet.

And just because DE isn't perfect at balancing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

Oh I would really like to see those. A trophy for trying then.

52 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Actually........

The huge list of buffs brought most weapons into more or less sortie ranges.  They mostly peter out shortly thereafter.

The Plasmor nerf brought it....into sortie ranges(I killed Vor and everything in the room with it this week, handily, I might add).  It peters out somewhat after that.

The current adjustments, both directions, brought a whole lot of weapons a whole lot closer together in overall capability, and they brought them to a noticeable level point in terms of where they maintain it----Sortie 3.  I really doubt this is coincidence, and this big list was not piecemeal, it was all encompassing(virtually every category not looked at has been slated to be handled in the future).

Majority of them were at sortie ranges already even beyond that, there might have been few where it might have been needed. Others they either overbuffed or just did something so it can be said it got buffed, like 1% of tenora which was a change for a sake of changing something. To actually make them balanced in normal content, which was discussed here, most of them would need to be nerfed not buffed.

 

 

So again. Plasmor was nerfed not to "balance" it for normal content, but because it was simply used too much. At some point they said it had like 60% usage or something. So called balance of normal content does not exist if everything dies from 1 hit. But good luck creating your own rules where nerfs/buffs or weapons in general cant be compared against high level enemies, who are also part of this game. I'm sure you will go far with that.

Edited February 16, 2018 by -Trey-

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

Again nothing is this game is balanced.

 

 

not balanced =/= not supposed to be balanced

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

Everything is strong agains low level enemies. It's mid tier weapon currently too.

And it's fine as-is.

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

Nobody said everything should be balanced vs super high level content. We are simply discussing nerfs to plasmor which are VERY visible. But maybe people enjoy playing against scaled enemies, maybe you don't but other might.

Except by referencing against super high levels you are biasing your balance toward super high levels.

It doesn't matter that people enjoy it; that doesn't mean it can be used to balance. Nobody is saying endless modes should be removed.

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

Dmg was decreased quite a bit, i'd say people who invested time and often money into something that got nerfed have right to get some answers.

I invested lots of time in Plasmor, and feel zero need for any answers not already given.

You are not entitled to baseline stats, even on plat-purchased items.

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

I'm using them for dmg comparing purposes and I will continue doing it because they are part of this game. You compare performance of weapons against high level enemies because almost everything 1 shots low level ones.

And yet Sortie 3 is still a perfectly good reference point. If a weapon performs well throughout sortie but starts to fall off after endless scaling kicks in...

IT IS BALANCED.

Do you see how you are already biased toward high level balance? The weapon is fine and yet you think there is a problem because you can't 1-shot endurance mobs anymore.

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

CLfits perfectly scaling enemies tho, completely going around armor and hp that keeps increasing. I'd say they had that in mind aswell, feel free to prove me wrong.

My lack of proof does not make you right; it illustrates that since neither of us have proof it's all just pointless blustering.

Simply put: you are treating impression as fact. Stop it, or go ask for an official answer about the design.

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

Except normal "balance" does not exist, everything dies 1 shot. Pre nerf, post nerf, with half mods missing. So you compare it against high level enemies.

No, you don't. You use content that SHOULD be balanced for comparison. If weapons are too strong for balanced content, they need to be nerfed. But as @Thrymm pointed out the most recent changes made weapons Sortie viable but not far beyond that.

They were GREAT changes that you think were bad because they aren't balancing around level 150+.

1 minute ago, -Trey- said:

Oh I would really like to see those. A trophy for trying then.

Their job isn't made any easier by people giving faulty balance feedback based on performance vs. stupidly scaled enemies when those enemies are designed to be overpowered and imbalanced.

You are literally helping to create the problem.

[-Trey-]

19 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

not balanced =/= not supposed to be balanced

I wish you luck waiting years for perfect balance then. In the meantime I'll have fun against challenging enemies.

 

Quote

And it's fine as-is.

That's your opinion. As said earlier, considering absurd of some other weapons I don't see nerfing this due to popularity justified.

Quote

Except by referencing against super high levels you are biasing your balance toward super high levels.

It doesn't matter that people enjoy it; that doesn't mean it can be used to balance. Nobody is saying endless modes should be removed.

I'm comparing damage in only way possible. Unless you want to somehow count overkill dmg against level 30. That's all I did there.

Quote

I invested lots of time in Plasmor, and feel zero need for any answers not already given.

You are not entitled to baseline stats, even on plat-purchased items.

Then you obviously don't care about newer players. Not everyone is like you.

Quote

And yet Sortie 3 is still a perfectly good reference point. If a weapon performs well throughout sortie but starts to fall off after endless scaling kicks in...

IT IS BALANCED.

Do you see how you are already biased toward high level balance? The weapon is fine and yet you think there is a problem because you can't 1-shot endurance mobs anymore.

Sortie 3 is a cake walk with majority of weapons. It should never be used to balance anything, unless they make it harder. You are clearly biased toward it for no reason. Also I never said anything about 1 hitting endurance mobs, you might want to read next time. Again I compared dmg against enemies that do not die from 1 hit. Do you see now how your way of thinking is flawed ?

Quote

My lack of proof does not make you right; it illustrates that since neither of us have proof it's all just pointless blustering.

Simply put: you are treating impression as fact. Stop it, or go ask for an official answer about the design.

Usually most obvious answer is the correct one.

Quote

No, you don't. You use content that SHOULD be balanced for comparison. If weapons are too strong for balanced content, they need to be nerfed. But as @Thrymm pointed out the most recent changes made weapons Sortie viable but not far beyond that.

They were GREAT changes that you think were bad because they aren't balancing around level 150+.

Yes you do, it's the most natural thing to do in situation like this. Plasmor is still too strong, you just said that it needs to be nerfed again. As stated already, most of those weapons were sortie viable already. If goal was to balance them around normal content most should be nerfed not buffed. If you nerfed Soma, Tenora, Hema or many more they would still be sortie viable.

Again all I did was say that nerf of plasmor was actually massive, if you test it properly.

Quote

Their job isn't made any easier by people giving faulty balance feedback based on performance vs. stupidly scaled enemies when those enemies are designed to be overpowered and imbalanced.

You are literally helping to create the problem.

Their job isn't made any easier by people who don't understand what impact those changes actually had, people who think that trivial sortie 3 is final level of this game.

Edited February 16, 2018 by -Trey-

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, -Trey- said:

Their job isn't made any easier by people who don't understand what impact those changes actually had, people who think that trivial sortie 3 is final level of this game.

Outside of Endless missions, Sorties are kinda the final level of this game.  Unless you want to include high level PoE bounties too.

[-Trey-]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Outside of Endless missions, Sorties are kinda the final level of this game.  Unless you want to include high level PoE bounties too.

Currently I'd say Eidolons are final level together with endless, personally wouldn't consider #5 bounty enemies there are simply too low level.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

That's your opinion. As said earlier, considering absurd of some other weapons I don't see nerfing this due to popularity justified.

You're assuming that popularity is the sole driving factor behind the nerf, which isn't necessarily the case. Also, the existence of overpowered weapon Y does not justify the continued existence of overpowered weapon X. The fact that there are other problems does not make singular problems untouchable.

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

I'm comparing damage in only way possible. Unless you want to somehow count overkill dmg against level 30. That's all I did there.

Wrong. You're cherry-picking your point of reference to criticize a perfectly reasonable nerf.

Obviously, if you compare Plasmor to level 30 mobs only it is overpowered, and if you compare it to level 200+ mobs it is probably underpowered. Which is why Sortie (level 100) is used as the maximum "balanced" level. If Plasmor is decent for killing level 100 mobs and starts to fall off in effectiveness afterward, then it is balanced.

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Then you obviously don't care about newer players. Not everyone is like you.

Wha?

Continually advancing power-creep by demanding extra power to fight excessively scaled enemies is about as anti-new-player as you can get. I'm sorry that you find Sorties boring, but that's the current maximum balanced level. You have to take what you can get when fighting anything past that.

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Sortie 3 is a cake walk with majority of weapons. It should never be used to balance anything, unless they make it harder. You are clearly biased toward it for no reason. Also I never said anything about 1 hitting endurance mobs, you might want to read next time. Again I compared dmg against enemies that do not die from 1 hit. Do you see now how your way of thinking is flawed ?

Endless scaling is not supposed to be balanced. It is supposed to overpower the player and force them out of "endless" missions. Thus, a maximum balanced level is required to maintain a constant reference point.

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Usually most obvious answer is the correct one.

At the very least I can recognize a baseless assertion for what it is, whereas you continue to insist that you are somehow right. How would you quantify your interpretation as "more obvious" than mine? It's entirely subjective.

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Yes you do, it's the most natural thing to do in situation like this. Plasmor is still too strong, you just said that it needs to be nerfed again. As stated already, most of those weapons were sortie viable already. If goal was to balance them around normal content most should be nerfed not buffed. If you nerfed Soma, Tenora, Hema or many more they would still be sortie viable.

No, it is the most pointless thing to do in a situation like this. What would you consider a balanced level, hm? Level 150? 160? 200? If the point of reference for "balanced" is variable then it is impossible to maintain consistency.

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Again all I did was say that nerf of plasmor was actually massive, if you test it properly.

Except it's not, when tested properly. The weapon still works fine in all content that should be balanced.

3 hours ago, -Trey- said:

Their job isn't made any easier by people who don't understand what impact those changes actually had, people who think that trivial sortie 3 is final level of this game.

So you admit that you're trying to balance the game for levels higher than Sortie 3, then?