What role does Ember fullfill?

[i_Lex]

3 minutes ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

Well if there is one niche corner left for Ember it is Infested I guess? It always was her prime role more or less, it`s just unfortunate we don`t really care for Infested. 

But a warframe should not almost be totally limited to one faction, thats just wrong.

[Shockness]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Why? there are so many to choose from... like weapons.. some for fun and some for fighting. Not every frame has to be good in high level content - which is a moving target anyway as i'm sure our definitions of high level are very different.

 

Well first of all, theres a way bigger arsenal of weapons than warframes. 

As for the moment high level means just around the 100s, not counting Mot long survivals for this. Using Ember in Sorties isn't effective by far, even if you max the crap out of her. I've watched warframe develop for 5 years now, never was there a thing that certain warframes should just not be high level viable, because this is not that type of game. Every warframe should allow to give a different approach to completing an objective. Ember should be a different kind of DPS to Mesa, where Mesa is really strong but is the gunslinger type, while Ember should be really strong aswell, but be the fire type.

[Thrymm]

20 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

Ember is perfectly fine , she's just a low tier warframe always was and always will be . You have other options just use them.

Why?  Did we dream this up?  Is it logical or rational in any way?  Does this hold up to scrutiny compared to other frames?

No, it does not.  Every frame has been targeted to increase their effectiveness into higher levels-----Ember included, for cripes sake.  This very adjustment also intentionally increased damage potential closer to her, in an attempt to make her more effective at higher levels.

Here, I'll help out, taken directly from the patch notes:

World On Fire
- 5 seconds after casting, a percentage will begin counting up on the ability icon. As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% over 10 seconds, the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half.

Ember is the original damage caster frame, offering low survivability in exchange for high offense. Her ultimate, World on Fire, is unmatched in terms of widespread lethality - while many Warframes specialize in certain mission types, Ember’s specialty is “anything under level 30”. By simply bullet jumping through levels with World on Fire active, enemies become a non-factor, making Ember a ubiquitous pick across most of the Star Chart. Like a mobile Resonating Quake, this monopoly on kills can leave squadmates struggling to keep up, in an attempt to see the enemy before they melt. These changes increase lethality at higher levels, while addressing the ability’s huge range.

World on Fire will continue working similarly to how it does now, but with changing effects over time. The gradually increasing energy cost should encourage most players to toggle the ability when needed, instead of the current “set and forget” approach. Players who can afford to run the ability at max charge may need to get more up close and personal, but the increased damage should help Ember out against higher level enemies.  World on Fire is still very capable of clearing rooms and sweeping hallways, but should now be applied more deliberately!

 

Now, what with me being literate and all, I can clearly see a direct intention here of Ember being able to handle levels higher than she had in the past--an ability directly intended to scale into higher level content than previously.  Before we start spouting made up crap like "she'll always be a low tier frame", let's at least be aware of what the development teams intentions where.

The real question should be whether or not it actually works that way, as there is clearly no question at all as to whether or not it is intended to.

[Nighttide77]

Um...  Ember's 4th went from Press-4-and-forget to Press-4-every-so-often.  Then they made her 1st awesome cuz now you can Kamehameha enemies with a lasting naplam effect, and the firewall can add damage for the whole team.  I think the goal was to make Ember's entire kit more attractive, rather than be a 1-trick pony.

Ember's kit does CC and DPS...that's their role in a team.  Last I checked, Accelerant ignores line-of-sight, which makes it a great CC and debuff...and with augment a great team buff.  If survivability is an issue...there are health pizzas...and pets can heal you when they deal damage...and operator arcanes...and other stuff I can't think of.

[Shockness]

3 minutes ago, i_Lex said:

Weapons are mr-bounded, some are suppose to be better than others so that building better weapons feels like progression. Warframe however are not mastery rank-bounded and are suppose to be useable in all situations, some better than others in unique situations. However, Ember in this case is really bad in high level, if she were to add anything but cc to a team like a massive damage boost (banshee's sonar) then this would not even be discussed. But Ember does not bring anything but some cc to the game, which is not enough for her survivability in high level.

 

3 minutes ago, i_Lex said:

But a warframe should not almost be totally limited to one faction, thats just wrong.

Happy that you understand that limiting a warframe to low levels or a faction is a bad gamemechanic.

[Spectre-8]

Just now, Thrymm said:

Why?  Did we dream this up?  Is it logical or rational in any way?  Does this hold up to scrutiny compared to other frames?

No, it does not.  Every frame has been targeted to increase their effectiveness into higher levels-----Ember included, for cripes sake.  This very adjustment also intentionally increased damage potential closer to her, in an attempt to make her more effective at higher levels.

Here, I'll help out, taken directly from the patch notes:

World On Fire
- 5 seconds after casting, a percentage will begin counting up on the ability icon. As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% over 10 seconds, the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half.

Ember is the original damage caster frame, offering low survivability in exchange for high offense. Her ultimate, World on Fire, is unmatched in terms of widespread lethality - while many Warframes specialize in certain mission types, Ember’s specialty is “anything under level 30”. By simply bullet jumping through levels with World on Fire active, enemies become a non-factor, making Ember a ubiquitous pick across most of the Star Chart. Like a mobile Resonating Quake, this monopoly on kills can leave squadmates struggling to keep up, in an attempt to see the enemy before they melt. These changes increase lethality at higher levels, while addressing the ability’s huge range.

World on Fire will continue working similarly to how it does now, but with changing effects over time. The gradually increasing energy cost should encourage most players to toggle the ability when needed, instead of the current “set and forget” approach. Players who can afford to run the ability at max charge may need to get more up close and personal, but the increased damage should help Ember out against higher level enemies.  World on Fire is still very capable of clearing rooms and sweeping hallways, but should now be applied more deliberately!

 

Now, what with me being literate and all, I can clearly see a direct intention here of Ember being able to handle levels higher than she had in the past--an ability directly intended to scale into higher level content than previously.  Before we start spouting made up crap like "she'll always be a low tier frame", let's at least be aware of what the development teams intentions where.

The real question should be whether or not it actually works that way, as there is clearly no question at all as to whether or not it is intended to.

Maybe you should wait and play Ember after her next rework then ?

[Shockness]

1 minute ago, Nighttide77 said:

Um...  Ember's 4th went from Press-4-and-forget to Press-4-every-so-often.  Then they made her 1st awesome cuz now you can Kamehameha enemies with a lasting naplam effect, and the firewall can add damage for the whole team.  I think the goal was to make Ember's entire kit more attractive, rather than be a 1-trick pony.

Ember's kit does CC and DPS...that's their role in a team.  Last I checked, Accelerant ignores line-of-sight, which makes it a great CC and debuff...and with augment a great team buff.  If survivability is an issue...there are health pizzas...and pets can heal you when they deal damage...and operator arcanes...and other stuff I can't think of.

Not sure if you've tried much of Ember in Sorties etc, because indeed yes the 1st ability is nice, it's not something amazing that you'd use much in any situation.

Sure the firewall adds damage to the team, but that means u'll have to be a sitting duck inside a 2meter ring of fire for barely a buff.

Ember is a bad CC and bad DPS to have in your team, accelerants stun is only viable if you spam the crap out of it, does that sound like a good design? Mashing ur 2?

As for DPS, I see nobody asking for Ember above Mesa or Titania for example. Simply because in sorties almost any frame can out dps Ember(Not to be taken literally)

[Thrymm]

Just now, Spectre-8 said:

Maybe you should wait and play Ember after her next rework then ?

Or we could discuss what her actual role is, now that we have a clear patch noted quotation that disproves the uninformed notion that she is intended to only be a low tier frame.

And in that regard, I would say......maybe.  She will still encounter damage scaling issues in content that could be viewed as regular, but her CC components have been improved across her kit to help out in solid ways.  They are, however, too short duration and too energy hungry to compete with what other frames currently bring.  Improvements in either energy income or duration increases would help with these items, in its current iteration.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

16 minutes ago, i_Lex said:

 Warframe however are not mastery rank-bounded and are suppose to be useable in all situations, some better than others in unique situations. 

Aren't oberon prime and banshee prime MR locked?

And i'm still waiting to hear why every warframe is supposed to be useable in all situations. With enough weaponry and skill as a player, all warframes including ember, can be used in some high level content.  But even that doesn't mean they are SUPPOSED to be useable in ALL situations.

 

[Shockness]

Just now, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Aren't oberon prime and banshee prime MR locked?

And i'm still waiting to hear why every warframe is supposed to be useable in all situations. With enough weaponry and skill as a player, all warframes including ember, can be used in some high level content.  But even that doesn't mean they are SUPPOSED to be useable in ALL situations.

 

Not usable in every situation, usable in every level and faction. Two different things.

[Spectre-8]

5 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Or we could discuss what her actual role is, now that we have a clear patch noted quotation that disproves the uninformed notion that she is intended to only be a low tier frame.

And in that regard, I would say......maybe.  She will still encounter damage scaling issues in content that could be viewed as regular, but her CC components have been improved across her kit to help out in solid ways.  They are, however, too short duration and too energy hungry to compete with what other frames currently bring.  Improvements in either energy income or duration increases would help with these items, in its current iteration.

Why every warframe should be viable and have a role though ?

I don't get this mentality at all .

If everyone is a winner , nobody is .

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Spectre-8

[Shockness]

1 minute ago, Spectre-8 said:

Why every warframe should be viable and have a role though ,

I don't get that mentality at all .If everyone is a winner , nobody is .

 

For diversity ofcourse, I dont want to see squads of 4 of the same warframe because they're the best. How is it so hard to see?

[AcceptYourDeath]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb i_Lex:

But a warframe should not almost be totally limited to one faction, thats just wrong.

Sure I totally agree, it was the same deal with Mag back in the days, one button for corpus, pretty much useless for everything else. No Warframe should be limited to a specific faction, or limited to one button. It got alot better with most Warframes, in a perfect world we would use all 4 abilitys on all Warframes frequently. 

It`s not much different from the damage 2.0 situation for weapons, designed with a specific faction in mind a long time ago. Today`s reality, factions overlap, factions have a distinct order in relevance. 

[Spectre-8]

2 minutes ago, Shockness said:

For diversity ofcourse, I dont want to see squads of 4 of the same warframe because they're the best. How is it so hard to see?

We have diversity right now , how is it hard to see ?

Edited February 13, 2018 by Spectre-8

[i_Lex]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Aren't oberon prime and banshee prime MR locked?

And i'm still waiting to hear why every warframe is supposed to be useable in all situations. With enough weaponry and skill as a player, all warframes including ember, can be used in some high level content.  But even that doesn't mean they are SUPPOSED to be useable in ALL situations.

 

Prime versions are out of the question, there originals (normal varient) are the ones in discussion. The only difference between primes and normals varients are the slight stat changes, so that not a valid point. 

Yes they should and are suppose to, the warframes should only differ in playstyle and handle in unique situations. What I mean with ALL SITUATIONS is that you are able to use a frame in both high low and mid level, and not restrict a frame to low level only. This is the case with Ember, her current iteration makes it only really viable in low (maybe- mid) level. This is wrong. 

Let's say Oberon is your favorite frame... you main him alot. Wouldn't you think that he's suppose to be viable in endgame too? Especially because as a normal player you (technically) have access to all warframes. If some frames were suppose to be forinstance high level only, a low level shouldn't be able to get it.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 minute ago, i_Lex said:

Yes they should and are suppose to, the warframes should only differ in playstyle

Is this your opinion or have the developers expressly stated this as a design goal for every frame?  Because all i've seen is player opinion. Which is very different than "supposed to" do this or that.

 

[Shockness]

2 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

We have diversity right now , how is it hard to see ?

There is diversity because of what I'm saying, theres many warframes that have the same role but do it in a different way. Ember on the other hand is not one of those frames as she is easily replaced by an another frame doing what she should do but better. 

I'm saying with your mentality every warframe would be locked to a certain level, so at a certain point there would only be 1 warframe viable.

How do you think it is okay to have 1 frame that just isn't viable in high level content while all other frames are? You must really not like people playing Ember.

[i_Lex]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Is this your opinion or have the developers expressly stated this as a design goal for every frame?  Because all i've seen is player opinion. Which is very different than "supposed to" do this or that.

 

Quote: "Warframes are divided into a collection of diverse models, each of which personifies a great warrior spirit. Players may don the Excalibur Warframe to gain its prowess with bladed weapons, for instance. Each model of Warframe is moreover highly reconfigurable, meaning players can tailor their choice of Warframe to fit a multitude of playstyles. While certain Warframes excel in a particular situation, none are limited to a singular role and no role demands the use of a singular Warframe."

Edited February 13, 2018 by i_Lex

[Shockness]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Is this your opinion or have the developers expressly stated this as a design goal for every frame?  Because all i've seen is player opinion. Which is very different than "supposed to" do this or that.

 

I play since the the beginning of 2013, this has always been the case. It was never a thing that warframes should be limited to certain levels, each warframe was viable in every situation but in a different manner.

[Spectre-8]

1 minute ago, Shockness said:

There is diversity because of what I'm saying, theres many warframes that have the same role but do it in a different way. Ember on the other hand is not one of those frames as she is easily replaced by an another frame doing what she should do but better. 

I'm saying with your mentality every warframe would be locked to a certain level, so at a certain point there would only be 1 warframe viable.

How do you think it is okay to have 1 frame that just isn't viable in high level content while all other frames are? You must really not like people playing Ember.

I'm not the one complaining about X warframe is not viable endgame , I actually like the fact that there are warframes for different missions and levels .

You are the one with the " mentality " .

[Shockness]

1 minute ago, Spectre-8 said:

I'm not the one complaining about X warframe is not viable endgame , I actually like the fact that there are warframes for different missions and levels .

You are the one with the " mentality " .

I have 4 more years of Warframe development experience than you, I've seen Warframe change a lot, yet never have they made clear that warframes are supposed to be locked to certain levels. it is indeed you having the mentality since beside Ember there is no warframe only viable in low levels, I also believe and DE said it themselves, that Ember should not be a low level frame, my post here is because I want to make them aware that Ember is still just that, while you are just saying that there indeed should be different warframes for different difficulties.

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, Stoner said:

Her kit revolved around her World on Fire. They nerfed its range and energy consumption to an absurd level imo and she isn't very fun to play. I even tried making a build for her fireballs...

I'm calling it right now, she's the next Mag.

I forgot about the frame that got nailed into her coffin

[Vafthrudnir]

1 hour ago, Shockness said:

0 survivability

She's plenty of CC, and augments that CC, that's her survivability and also now she has even more ways to boost weapon damage.

[Terrornaut]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Ember is a mix of a bit of everything, offensively concerned. some CC, and lots of DPS + sharing that with Allies to increase their Damage as well.

the most nuts thing Ember has now is that Flash Accelerant is still a mandatory Mod, but now Fire Blast gives a Damage Bonus as well - what this means is Ember can now deal hilarious Damage to things if you stack those Bonuses.
additionally, three of Embers' Abilities can now buff Allies, adding a ton of extra Damage and then Multiplying that Damage on top of that.

 

(oh, also Ember is not a Warframe that is limited to Lv10 Enemies - Ember is only that way if you use the completely garbage Loadout that's circlejerked around by Youtube and Twitch. just because it is popular, does not necessarily mean it is effective!)

^^^^^

1 hour ago, Shockness said:

You're completely neglecting the fact that no warframe should just be a 'low level' warframe, each warframe should be good in high level content but with a different approach. This is not a game where warframes should be categorized in certain ranges of levels. Like I said, with that mentality everyone would be running the same warframe.

This pretty much

57 minutes ago, i_Lex said:

Weapons are mr-bounded, some are suppose to be better than others so that building better weapons feels like progression. Warframe however are not mastery rank-bounded and are suppose to be useable in all situations, some better than others in unique situations. However, Ember in this case is really bad in high level, if she were to add anything but cc to a team like a massive damage boost (banshee's sonar) then this would not even be discussed. But Ember does not bring anything but some cc to the game, which is not enough for her survivability in high level.

You don't really know what Ember can do and you have not tried other builds or tried to find anything other than someone's aforementioned circlejerk of youtubers about meme Ember.  Must have been Taiiat, who I sometimes strongly agree with and sometimes completely disagree with.

55 minutes ago, Shockness said:

Well first of all, theres a way bigger arsenal of weapons than warframes. 

As for the moment high level means just around the 100s, not counting Mot long survivals for this. Using Ember in Sorties isn't effective by far, even if you max the crap out of her. I've watched warframe develop for 5 years now, never was there a thing that certain warframes should just not be high level viable, because this is not that type of game. Every warframe should allow to give a different approach to completing an objective. Ember should be a different kind of DPS to Mesa, where Mesa is really strong but is the gunslinger type, while Ember should be really strong aswell, but be the fire type.

Agreed with the last part, laughably disagree with the first part.

I can clear most sorties where things need to die with complete ease with Ember and top damage and kill charts in the presence of other frames, consistently with Ember. I have for a long time, sometimes even when reduced elemental damage is a restrictor.

I've built Ember to multiply damage by 8x, before forced ground finishers taking melee damage before combo to 12x.  Built her in other ways too.  In the end, if you aren't building corrosive status with some heat, then yeah, you will never see what damage Ember can do outside of infested. I play mostly against corrupted and vastly against grineer when possible, and Ember with a couple clicks inside 2s or well under does to level 120s what she does to level 20.  She just isn't safe, and now, she's much less safe for more energy with reduced kill efficiency+damage to WoF.  Yes the power goes up to double damage, but at half range, you're doing less damage to less targets because you can't spread it and fire procs which do a good amount of damage when boosted on armor stripped targets.

If you aren't stripping armor with all the ways to strip armor in WF's life at this point in time, then you have no interest in using Ember as damage and have no need to complain in that direction.  There are too many ways to strip armor and a warframe kit is more than just its 1-4 abilities, its all your customizable tools in your loadout.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Terrornaut

[Shockness]

1 minute ago, giovanniluca said:

She's plenty of CC, and augments that CC, that's her survivability and also now she has even more ways to boost weapon damage.

Her CC is far from being good for survivability, did you try Ember post-update?

Accelerants stun is like 2 seconds long, World on fire's range is so little that CC can't be taking into consideration.