Uncounterable Scrambus: How DE "Balances" Our Overpowered Warframes

[Raspberry]

It's just another average lvl 25-35 syndicate exterminate mission against Corpus, and when my Mesa rounds one random corner to face just another horde, I suddenly get my Shatter Shield dispelled, I get knocked down, then killed by a shotgun (guessing it's a Detron) in 3 shots. This really should not be happening to a warframe with maxed Vitality, regardless of armor, and at this level of difficulty, an exilus slot with Handspring shouldn't be required to just simply survive a fight against one mob enemy. Grineer are guilty of this, too, when Commanders can switch teleport with you and "stun" you long enough to take a napalm shot. I think there's a very clear reason why Ember was used so many times before her nerf, and even now, just with toggles: she is the only counter to these extremely unpredictable enemies. No amount of Enemy Sense/Radar or Animal Instinct can tell you what kind of enemy is around that corner, and so if you're playing solo, you might as well only play frames that can kill enemies before you even see them, since these enemies can pretty much screw you over regardless of what build you have. Rhino with Blind Rage on Iron Skin? All that buffered health gone, you're open to the same brutal treatment as my Mesa had gone through.

I know the focus of Warframe is co-op with solo being a side option, but man... solo is just not fun on the tighter tilesets like Corpus Ice Planet, Infested Ship, and Grineer Galleon. It doesn't matter what you do, you will eventually have to round corners, and if your abilities get disabled or if you are stunlocked, no teammate will be there to save/revive you. A balance pass really needs to be done to Commanders, Shield Lancers (their Vipers should not seemingly deal 5x more damage than Grakatas, and there needs to be cooldowns to their shield bashing so that they can't keep pushing you off the map until you're killed), Scrambus/Comba, and Energy Leech/Parasitic Eximus (they need a visual cue on our warframes to communicate that our energy is actively being drained instead of the energy gauge suddenly decaying for seemingly no reason).

And while I wait for a balance pass, I guess for solo play, I'm just stuck with Nidus and Inaros, who can at least survive when abilities are disabled, as well as self-revive should they ever lose all their health.

[Airwolfen]

On the scrambus specifically.

Shoot the helmet off, countered.

They have a very special set of sounds so its easy to know they are inbound well before you are in the auras range.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Airwolfen

[SarcasticShepard]

3 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

On the scrambus specifically.

Shoot the helmet off, countered.

They have a very special set of sounds so its easy to know they are inbound well before you are in the auras range.

Never knew that removing the helm disabled the scrambler. Handy to know.

[Raspberry]

3 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

On the scrambus specifically.

Shoot the helmet off, countered.

They have a very special set of sounds so its easy to know they are inbound well before you are in the auras range.

Stairs were blocking my line of sight. It was impossible. Also, their "very special set of sounds" is far too insignificant compared to something like Nullifier bubbles. To be honest, I have not heard them once except when I viewed their Codex entries. By the time they're close enough to hear in combat, I'm already getting the magnetic buzz and HUD scramble. By that time, I can no longer use my minimap to locate their position, so I can only hope that I'm not in a bad spot in the map. 90%+ of the time, it's not an issue. But when it is an issue, it's fatal.

[Hypernaut1]

Situational awareness can help you survive

[Raspberry]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Situational awareness can help you survive

Animal Instinct doesn't identify the type of enemy for me. They're all red triangles. Could be just 3 MOAs or 2 MOAs and a Scrambus, I have no idea until either they or I round the corner. Also, judging by your wording, "help you survive," I'm guessing that you've also seen a number of unpreventable deaths in your experience, too. Most deaths are preventable, mind you, and most of us very rarely die with end-game equipment in star chart difficulties. When we can't avoid death, that's when we should consider the state of balance in this game. Why bother fighting a Commander that can switch teleport you when pre-nerf Ember could kill him with WoF before you even meet him? The only "counter" to uncounterable enemies is killing them with abilities that work through walls.

[lexandritte]

Sounds like somebody didn't play Doom as a kid and doesn't know about always starting corners with your paranoia to the max. 

[Hypernaut1]

34 minutes ago, Raspberri said:

Animal Instinct doesn't identify the type of enemy for me. They're all red triangles. Could be just 3 MOAs or 2 MOAs and a Scrambus, I have no idea until either they or I round the corner. Also, judging by your wording, "help you survive," I'm guessing that you've also seen a number of unpreventable deaths in your experience, too. Most deaths are preventable, mind you, and most of us very rarely die with end-game equipment in star chart difficulties. When we can't avoid death, that's when we should consider the state of balance in this game. Why bother fighting a Commander that can switch teleport you when pre-nerf Ember could kill him with WoF before you even meet him? The only "counter" to uncounterable enemies is killing them with abilities that work through walls.

It seems like you're mad about that one time a scrambus got the drop on you and killed you, and decided to make a post about it.

It happens, but 95% of the time it doesn't.

You should appreciate having a competent enemy sometimes

Edited February 14, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

They are only an issue if you go charging blindly ahead expecting all the enemies to melt in your path.  Their distinctive sound is definitely outside their aura range, and headshots kill their aura.  

[Raspberry]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It seems like you're mad about that one time a scrambus got the drop on you and killed you, and decided to make a post about it.

It happens, but 95% of the time it doesn't.

You should appreciate having a competent enemy sometimes

I "appreciate" Noxes and Bursas for the sudden change of pace when they make their presence, and yet they are absolutely counterable. There's nothing you can do against a Scrambus except hope that you don't meet one in a tight hallway. Good luck with that when weaving through the shipwrecks of the Corpus Ice Planet tileset. Maybe you appreciate having enemies that are competent enough to find ways to guarantee killing you. I don't. I like beatable challenges, unbeatable ones are no longer challenges and you're fighting the game itself, not fighting enemies in the game.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Raspberri
grammar

[Hypernaut1]

39 minutes ago, Raspberri said:

I "appreciate" Noxes and Bursas for the sudden change of pace when they make their presence, and yet they are absolutely counterable. There's nothing you can do against a Scrambus except hope that you don't meet one in a tight hallway. Good luck with that when weaving through the shipwrecks of the Corpus Ice Planet tileset. Maybe you appreciate having enemies that are competent enough to find ways to guarantee killing you. I don't. I like beatable challenges, unbeatable ones are no longer challenges and you're fighting the game itself, not fighting enemies in the game.

You're being overdramatic. Combas are in NO WAY unbeatable, or guaranteed to kill you. All they do is scramble defensive or offensive powers. Just shoot them in the head. Most frames have at least one set of abilities that still works when they're around.

[snarfbot]

The best thing about ambulas sortie is the wave with the lvl 100 scrambus's that come skating out with their dispell field one shotting everybody. So much worse than everything else combined.

[lexandritte]

I don't really have a better answer than "git gut". There's whole bunch of different counters:

1. Backtrack out of aura and snipe them from distance.

2. Rush in and melee the @&#(&*@#$#. If you are playing without melee, I don't know what's wrong with you, even Mesa passive is not worth it.

3. Use mobility to avoid damage, and either get out or get close to kill him.

4. Switch to Operator and either void dash out of there or use your Amp to kill the dude. Corpus and Infested have no damage reduction to void damage.

5. Suck it up and spend a revive, we all die on missions.

 

If you are rounding the corner and get shot by Scrambus, you are too reckless, not mobile enough, and not situationally aware enough. 

[lexandritte]

1 hour ago, snarfbot said:

The best thing about ambulas sortie is the wave with the lvl 100 scrambus's that come skating out with their dispell field one shotting everybody. So much worse than everything else combined.

You can easily kill them with long range weapons or long range cc like Larva or Prism. Arena has enough open space to just avoid them. 

[Raspberry]

12 hours ago, lexandritte said:

I don't really have a better answer than "git gut". There's whole bunch of different counters:

1. Backtrack out of aura and snipe them from distance.

2. Rush in and melee the @&#(&*@#$#. If you are playing without melee, I don't know what's wrong with you, even Mesa passive is not worth it.

3. Use mobility to avoid damage, and either get out or get close to kill him.

4. Switch to Operator and either void dash out of there or use your Amp to kill the dude. Corpus and Infested have no damage reduction to void damage.

5. Suck it up and spend a revive, we all die on missions.

 

If you are rounding the corner and get shot by Scrambus, you are too reckless, not mobile enough, and not situationally aware enough. 

1. There was nothing to backtrack to. I was in a bad spot, and he just had to skate in while I was dealing with a MOA that was stuck in an obscure corner.

2. I can't fight when I get knocked down as soon as I see the Scrambus.

3. I can't use mobility when I get knocked down as soon as I see the Scrambus.

4. I can't use Transference when I get knocked down as soon as I see the Scrambus.

5. The game should not be balanced around expecting solo players to die.

[Raspberry]

15 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You're being overdramatic. Combas are in NO WAY unbeatable, or guaranteed to kill you. All they do is scramble defensive or offensive powers. Just shoot them in the head. Most frames have at least one set of abilities that still works when they're around.

All frames have zero abilities that work when they're knocked down. There's always Handspring, as I pointed out, but losing 1200 EHP (effective hp) to a single lvl 25-35 enemy after a knockdown shouldn't be a thing. And I don't think I'm being overdramatic here, it didn't matter what frame I could have picked if I didn't have this mod. Is it crutch for high levels? Yeah, and I'm fine with that. But mid star chart? I think this is a bit unwarranted. The reason why I might sound overdramatic, though, is because I happened to be unlucky to find myself in a pretty much unwinnable scenario. I will admit that it's a relatively rare scenario since most Scrambus/Comba are a non-issue, but still, I'd like to get rid of as many scenarios as possible where no amount of skill can save me. I've seen MR 25s get shield bashed to death on PoE because each bash pushed them into a nearby pond, which causes them to respawn back on land with a stumble, so they can't do anything against Tusk Shield Lancers "spawn camping". Scenarios that make unbalanced enemies stand out are rare, but they shouldn't be happening at all, which is why there are zero complaints on Elite Crewmen and a number of complaints on Scrambus despite there still being relatively few Tenno deaths to Scrambus in practice.

It's hard to fight hindsight bias because all of you (and me) know the absolute perfect way to counter that specific Scrambus that killed me just simply with repositioning. I've rounded hundreds of tight corners in Corpus shipwrecks with no problem before, I wouldn't waste time being overcautious on just another corner when the enemies I'm fighting are low levels. I can't reverse time to replay that scenario again without me dying, so these silly "tips and tricks" in these comments that are just no-brainer obvious things to do? Not really helpful. For future scenarios, though? Aside from having innate knockdown resist of some sort, I can't truly prepare myself to fight any unexpected enemy in claudstrophobic areas with strong DPS that have stun abilities.

[Raspberry]

12 hours ago, lexandritte said:

You can easily kill them with long range weapons or long range cc like Larva or Prism. Arena has enough open space to just avoid them. 

I do agree with you here, they are a complete non-issue in large maps where there's plenty of room to maneuver, then kill Scrambus at long range. It's really just the tight tiles that give me problems, and there's not much that can be done other than killing/CC-ing through walls. Which is possible, but not something every frame can do.

[Marthrym]

That's one of the main reasons Warframe presents no fair challenge in my opinion. Cheap mechanics that you can only "counter" by outright eliminating the unit using them is not really what challenge should be in most cases. Scrambus and Comba units are a prime example of that problem.

If you fight in wide open spaces where you can see this kind of enemy coming and avoid said cheap mechanics, they're usually not much of a threat. If you fight in tight spaces? You're pretty much screwed. Auras are invisible and go through walls, getting a LoS often times means getting inside the aura's range and within that enemy's (and their hordes of buddies) LoS too, turning every CQB into a crapfest, and most battles end up being CQBs because of tile design. The real issue is you have no other choice but to put yourself in danger just to get a shot at getting out of that danger, crossing your fingers you get lucky. Actually don't cross your fingers, you really need them when it happens.

That's one of the problems with power fantasy games, how do you challenge players when they are so powerful? Easy ways are to crank up the numbers of enemies and their survivability and damage, or to affect the player's power advantage in different ways to even things out. In Warframe the devs unfortunately don't understand that using BOTH at the same time is not a great idea : enemies become ridiculously powerful themselves, most notably in terms of damage output, and can also outright remove our power advantage in the process instead of just dampening it, which has a devastating cumulative effect. Enemies are not only way too powerful and numerous to handle without our power advantage, but turn out to also being able to take away that power very easily and often without offering viable counters other than eliminating them, tipping the scales completely off balance.

That's Warframe in a nutshell, an all or nothing where the players either faceroll they way through throngs of enemies or risk getting insta-gibbed if only one attack manages to successfully hit them.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Marthrym

[Raspberry]

3 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

That's one of the main reasons Warframe presents no fair challenge in my opinion. Cheap mechanics that you can only "counter" by outright eliminating the unit using them is not really what challenge should be in most cases. Scrambus and Comba units are a prime example of that problem.

If you fight in wide open spaces where you can see this kind of enemy coming and avoid said cheap mechanics, they're usually not much of a threat. If you fight in tight spaces? You're pretty much screwed. Auras are invisible and go through walls, getting a LoS often times means getting inside the aura's range and within that enemy's (and their hordes of buddies) LoS too, turning every CQB into a crapfest, and most battles end up being CQBs because of tile design. The real issue is you have no other choice but to put yourself in danger just to get a shot at getting out of that danger, crossing your fingers you get lucky. Actually don't cross your fingers, you really need them when it happens.

That's one of the problems with power fantasy games, how do you challenge players when they are so powerful? Easy ways are to crank up the numbers of enemies and their survivability and damage, or to affect the player's power advantage in different ways to even things out. In Warframe the devs unfortunately don't understand that using BOTH at the same time is not a great idea : enemies become ridiculously powerful themselves, most notably in terms of damage output, and can also outright remove our power advantage in the process instead of just dampening it, which has a devastating cumulative effect. Enemies are not only way too powerful and numerous to handle without our power advantage, but turn out to also being able to take away that power very easily and often without offering viable counters other than eliminating them, tipping the scales completely off balance.

That's Warframe in a nutshell, an all or nothing where the players either faceroll they way through throngs of enemies or risk getting insta-gibbed if only one attack manages to successfully hit.

I think you've pretty much nailed my thoughts towards this game. DE is a fairly large company, and so there are many views. It seems that there are two major visions for this game that end up just conflicting each other: one is for a horde shooter, where we massacre to achieve a goal and the challenge is to overcome the overwhelming odds. The other is for a tactical shooter centered around carefully taking out targets, much like a classic military shooter. For the most part, Warframe fits with the first vision, and most of DE's development in this game follow this vision to give us the majority of the content and its fun. A few updates/features here and there, however, conflict with this, and we get trash like Harpak harpoon alt-fire, Helminth Chargers, and Focus 1.0.

[Airwolfen]

3 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Cheap mechanics that you can only "counter" by outright eliminating the unit using them

you can quite literally just shoot the helmet so it breaks. this disables the aura. the unit does not need to die with that shot

 

7 hours ago, Raspberri said:

1. There was nothing to backtrack to. I was in a bad spot, and he just had to skate in while I was dealing with a MOA that was stuck in an obscure corner.

2. I can't fight when I get knocked down as soon as I see the Scrambus.

3. I can't use mobility when I get knocked down as soon as I see the Scrambus.

4. I can't use Transference when I get knocked down as soon as I see the Scrambus.

5. The game should not be balanced around expecting solo players to die.

scrambus units can not cause knockdowns as far as I know. so that means the moa was likely a Shockwave Moa. so... Jump? Dodge? melee block? even peacemaker? so many things could have prevented that knockdown. Not to mention that two of these have damage reduction on them.

Sorry but you just had an over reliance on shatter shield.

[Marthrym]

53 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

you can quite literally just shoot the helmet so it breaks. this disables the aura. the unit does not need to die with that shot

 

Why do you so blatantly take a very small part of a sentence in a post that specifically explains that having to put oneself in danger just to get oneself out of danger is not very smart game design? I specifically state in the same post how to achieve this in CQBs players more often than not have to purposely get within the AOE of the invisible auras, therefore neutralizing their powers, put themselves in the LoS of the enemy, thus being forcefully exposed to enemy fire, all that with no possible counter?

I don't understand people like you who just take things out of their context entirely to try and make it fit their views or arguments. It's not constructive, it's not smart, it's not helpful in any way. So why? What's the point? I mean other than trolling on the Internet of course. I'm confused.

[Raspberry]

1 hour ago, Airwolfen said:

you can quite literally just shoot the helmet so it breaks. this disables the aura. the unit does not need to die with that shot

 

scrambus units can not cause knockdowns as far as I know. so that means the moa was likely a Shockwave Moa. so... Jump? Dodge? melee block? even peacemaker? so many things could have prevented that knockdown. Not to mention that two of these have damage reduction on them.

Sorry but you just had an over reliance on shatter shield.

Shatter Shield has exactly zero resistance on any kind of knockdown or stagger, so that is just assuming the wrong things. And remember, I specifically pointed out that being Rhino with Iron Skin instead would not have changed the outcome of the scenario at all, since the Iron Skin would have been nullified and Rhino would have been obliterated in exactly the same way. It was a spur of the moment, but I'm pretty sure the Scrambus meleed me to cause knockdown, or it might possibly have been a stray Shockwave MOA wave. My point is, I shouldn't lose 1200 EHP to a single lvl 25-35 enemy of any kind in under 2 seconds, the time it takes for me to recover from knockdown (without mods or Valkyr's passive). And that same enemy should not be also able to nullify any defensive warframe ability.

[(XBOX)Skullstachio]

I advise you read about these two enemys, otherwise known as Nul Scrambus & the Nul Comba.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Comba#Nul

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Scrambus#Nul

When facing a bursa though, ALWAYS watch out for Isolator Bursa's as they too can nullify some abilities. (Shoot the panel on the back for X3 Damage)

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Isolator_Bursa

Dually note that the Nul Scrambus/Comba can only nullify certain (But not all) abilities that their other variants cannot nullify (See the "Variants section" in the links provided). they also have to be within 15 meters before their equipment can make any real impact so maintaining your distance to shoot their weakpoint/equipment is advised when combatting a scrambus/comba. whereas isolator bursa's can fire nullifier projectiles which are smaller versions of a nullifier crewmans nullifier bubble that can stick to you and to any possible surface, nullifying any and all abilities as well as draining nidus's mutation stack over time. (Read about the Isolator bursa in the link for full details and ways to counteract such weaponry.)

[chainchompguy3]

If I can throw my 2-cents in, the issue with Scrambus/Comba is really just an issue of powers/nullification in general.

 

Many frames have extremely powerful means of surviving damage. So much so that they are neigh invincible with it active. Thus, players are able to survive farther into the higher levels without need of twitch-reflex parkour escapes, or high health.

So players come to rely upon and expect these powers to keep them alive, because it's worked for most of the entire game.

So then, when an enemy appears very quickly around a corner, and instantly removes their designated source of survivability instantaneously, the skill-floor is yanked out from under them, and they die as a result of not having been used to running like a scared pup at the sight of a too-close enemy.

 

The game gives plenty of means of countering these units, technically.

But it does a rather crappy job of making these methods seem important, because nullification is only a major factor in 1 out of the 4 factions, and only at certain levels.

 

(Personally, I feel like abilities aught to work a lot more like Borderlands, where Nullification is NOT a thing, but abilities also don't guarantee success, either.)

[Airwolfen]

7 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Why do you so blatantly take a very small part of a sentence in a post that specifically explains that having to put oneself in danger just to get oneself out of danger is not very smart game design? I specifically state in the same post how to achieve this in CQBs players more often than not have to purposely get within the AOE of the invisible auras, therefore neutralizing their powers, put themselves in the LoS of the enemy, thus being forcefully exposed to enemy fire, all that with no possible counter?

I don't understand people like you who just take things out of their context entirely to try and make it fit their views or arguments. It's not constructive, it's not smart, it's not helpful in any way. So why? What's the point? I mean other than trolling on the Internet of course. I'm confused.

Why I only took a small part? Because singling it out makes it so I can give a more focused response instead of posting the entire quote. Giving the same reaction, and then people easily misunderstanding what I'm reacting to. I mean to me that just seems like it would create less confusing and have been doing so on these forums for years. :/

In this case I was simply adding a small correction as shooting off the helmet is actually quite the unknown little fact.

You want a reaction on the rest?

My stance is simple. These units make a very specific 'boing' like sound with every pulse of their helmets. this sound cue is important as it warns you of this unit. Not once have I been surprised to suddenly see a scrambus as I KNOW its there.

Now it is up to the player to REACT to this. If you are in a tight spot get ready to dodge roll or take out your melee weapon (so you can block / channel block). both of these options have build in damage reduction that can easily save you in these situations. Not using those and blaming that on the unit that removed your defensive skill, is imo (sorry for the pun) unskillful play.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Airwolfen