Ivara pickpocket change.

[Rhumald]

Quote

• Ivara’s Prowl will now only steal from each enemy once total, instead of once per Ivara. Our intent is to mirror how Nekros’ Desecrate also functions, considering the recent movement of Sentient Cores to certain Sentient variants. It’s rewarding to be the warmly welcomed Nekros in an Argon Crystal run, and we hope Ivara will now be welcomed equivalently. 

So about that.

I'm just going to speak my mind here because frankly, I'm a little bit astounded that this is a thing that was done.

You see, the problem with Ivara's prowl is that it's an ability that takes energy, over time, and it's slow; you cannot jump around like all your buddies, or kill things willy nilly like all the other frames when they're stealthed, because those things break Ivaras stealth. All of this mechanical fudgery sorta works out in the favour of her pick-pocketing, but I'm going to go off on a tangent and come back to that after the next paragraph. Trust me, this is important.

So I noticed a thing. A very, very awful, heart wrenching thing:

Quote

Our intent is to mirror how Nekros’ Desecrate also functions,

Sooo I take it that, Ivara's pickpocket now takes no time at all, as opposed to the 2-3 seconds it takes currently (1 if you stack the mods right), per enemy?
She can use her pickpocket on dead enemies now too? I don't need to carefully skirt around dozens of enemies carefully stealing from them without touching anyone, I can just go loot the corpses? Are you changing it to cost extra energy per pickpocket too?

These are rhetorical questions of course.

It was always the case that you only ever wanted 1 or 2 Ivaras in a group, max, unless you had a very specific drop everyone in that group was farming for, and you were all organized enough to work together towards getting that 1 thing. and I get that this can sound overpowered, but when people decide that they'd rather organize a heist, and sit through stealing from tens of enemies in the hopes of nailing that one drop, maybe, *just maybe* it's not Ivara's pickpocket that's the problem.

But I digress. the whole point of this is to ask: If you're going to change Ivara up, so that she's a solo warframe, who doesn't play well with other Ivaras, because she needs those drops to keep her energy going as well, and it's already hard enough to do that with everyone else murdering everything; When can we expect the ability to take no time at all.

I'm honestly fine with this, if pickpocketing is made instant. No one really wants to sit around doing nothing all day, right?

Edited February 16, 2018 by Rhumald

[Jorak_Falconstar]

22 minutes ago, Rhumald said:

or kill things willy nilly like all the other frames when they're stealthed

Hush

[motorfirebox]

Yeah, it seems like they've finally fixed the problem of people wanting to use Ivara (I'm kidding... a bit). I know there were probably four-Ivara teams going around gathering certain resources faster than everybody else, but honestly, if they have the patience to spend an hour on an extermination run, I feel like they've earned whatever they get.

[Stoner]

All these nerfs caused by PoE... damn. First Chroma now, Ivara. Yes you can argue Chroma's math wasn't right, but it as left untouched for god knows how long. 

[Rhumald]

38 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Yeah, it seems like they've finally fixed the problem of people wanting to use Ivara (I'm kidding... a bit). I know there were probably four-Ivara teams going around gathering certain resources faster than everybody else, but honestly, if they have the patience to spend an hour on an extermination run, I feel like they've earned whatever they get.

I am sitting in a mission with two Hydroids and a Nekros right now. An Ivara would not make this farm any better.

[Baklavah]

41 minutes ago, Rhumald said:

I am sitting in a mission with two Hydroids and a Nekros right now. An Ivara would not make this farm any better.

Yep

[Chinoneko]

As an Ivara player, I totally agree.

It is very illogical statement. I felt like i just take a big piece of sugar coded lies that they said they wanted to make Ivara better... well "equivalently welcome".

Sorry I don't want to be negative but there is nothing positive to talk about...

I hope they will realize from their statistics that Ivara popularity has decreased since they seem so obsessed about their numbers.

 

hmm... DE how about you make another augment that made her prowl work as closely as before? i'd be gladly sacrificed my slot for that.

Faith in DE -1

[kgabor]

Well yeah, Ivara is not really meant to be a spammy lootframe though an energy drain increase wouldn't make much sense.

The whole looting thing is more of a detriment to the frame than anything most of the time to begin with because of the energy drain and it's rather just annoying when you randomly loot enemies you get close to.

[Baklavah]

16 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Well yeah, Ivara is not really meant to be a spammy lootframe though an energy drain increase wouldn't make much sense.

The whole looting thing is more of a detriment to the frame than anything most of the time to begin with because of the energy drain and it's rather just annoying when you randomly loot enemies you get close to.

I think you missed the entire point of the original post........

[kgabor]

13 minutes ago, Baklavah said:

I think you missed the entire point of the original post........

Or maybe it's just some players missing the point of this change, just maybe.

The Prowl mechanic was mostly pointless to begin with and was abused with full Ivara teams for additional drops where it wasn't intended so it got fixed.

Edited February 16, 2018 by kgabor

[Baklavah]

16 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Or maybe it's just some players missing the point of this change, just maybe.

The Prowl mechanic was mostly pointless to begin with and was abused with full Ivara teams for additional drops where it wasn't intended so it got fixed.

So... all of 8 people abused Ivara... I have never seen 4-man Ivara squads go farming. You're better off using Hydroid/Nekros/Smeeta Kavaat combinations. You'd get more out of it and for less tedious efforts. The whole "Ivara Abuse" thing makes no sense as no one uses it.

[DroopingPuppy]

2 hours ago, Stoner said:

All these nerfs caused by PoE... damn. First Chroma now, Ivara. Yes you can argue Chroma's math wasn't right, but it as left untouched for god knows how long. 

An another reason to hate PoE, maybe.

 

 

[Curufean]

What exactly was the problem DE is trying to fix here.  Feels like a change to fix a problem that didn't exist because reasons and it's a little disheartening. 

[Rhumald]

Just now, kgabor said:

Or maybe it's just some players missing the point of this change, just maybe.

The Prowl mechanic was mostly pointless to begin with and was abused for additional drops where it wasn't intended so it got fixed.

No, no, he's right, you missed the point of the post. In fact, you grabbed on to something I said, rhetorically, as if it was how the ability worked.

Prowl does not consume extra energy when you steal things with it. That... that is not a thing. It would be a thing, if it worked the same way Nekros' ability worked, but it is not, currently, a thing.

Very few people use her pickpocket ability for additional drops, because there are better, quicker ways to get additional drops, like Hydroid with a Pilfering Swarm, and Nekros. A party comp she does not play well with, because they both need to kill things for additional drops, and she needs to keep them alive. The only time it was worth intentionally bringing multiple Ivaras out to farm for an item, is when that item was a particularly rare drop from a particularly large drop table, and even then, it was only ever one extra draw at the loot table, maximum (assuming a party of Ivara, Nekros, and Hydroid as the comparison to a full Ivara squad).

I do not understand how these new drops from enemies you encounter very few of in any particular mission were the nail in the coffin to a full Ivara squad... But I also wouldn't care, if Ivara's pickpocket was reworked to play nice with the other two farm frames.... which is still a totally legitimate way to farm them with, by the way, if people really want to sit around doing nothing.

[Curufean]

37 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Or maybe it's just some players missing the point of this change, just maybe.

Please explain how this puts Ivara on par with nekros or makes her equivalently welcome in a group, both of which were the stated reasons for the change.  

[ScribbleClash]

4 hours ago, Rhumald said:

considering the recent movement of Sentient Cores to certain Sentient variants.

This is the obvious reason they took out the scissors and cut her wings off straight.
This nerf is even more unreasonable than Atlas' Ore Gaze (It doesn't make sense to have less than 100%, since it does not work with Hydroid anyway). Their claim that it will make her more usable to just nerf a part of her is outrageous.
And no! Making steal instant wont fix this blunder! What's the point of having a copy of Nekros? Her thing was to get multiple chances on loot from certain enemies (e.g.: Mod farm on Sentients).

14 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

They will drop either an Exceptional (25%) or Intact (75%) Sentient Core.

 Even with Ivara, Nekros and Hydroid actually taking down the Sentients for cores, this will still be a laughable effort in comparison to Eidolon hunting. You even only need one night to max your gatherable standing with the quills, so what is the point!?!

[Caelward]

1 hour ago, Baklavah said:

You're better off using Hydroid/Nekros/Smeeta Kavaat combinations.

Shhhh, be quiet! They'll nerf Smeeta Kavaats next!

[WarMonkey85]

I will never unstand this change either. Ivara will NEVER be welcomed in looting parties simply because there are more effective ways to do it. And while x4 Ivara parties were few and far between, it was one of, if not the best way to get Broken War pieces and Vengeful Reavenent, but now due to this change, that will become damn near impossible to get those pieces effectively. Why "fix" something if it isn't broken...

Not to mention they're only diluting the loot table by adding cores. And as a member mentioned above, one night in the plains can max your quill standing, so why go to Lua and test ye ole RNGesus for Sentient Cores. It's a piss poor excuse and DE knows it.

Edited February 16, 2018 by WarMonkey85

[ZodiacShinryu]

2 hours ago, Baklavah said:

So... all of 8 people abused Ivara... I have never seen 4-man Ivara squads go farming. You're better off using Hydroid/Nekros/Smeeta Kavaat combinations. You'd get more out of it and for less tedious efforts. The whole "Ivara Abuse" thing makes no sense as no one uses it.

To see a 4-man Ivara farm would mean you need to be one of the Ivara farming wouldn't it? You wouldn't come across that randomly. It was a niche thing for farming generally mods or things from particularly rare enemies. I doubt they were used for mass resource gathering. It was a big thing for farming stance mods (like from maniacs/bombards/sentients) or things that weren't affected by Desecrate (at the time) especially right after they nerfed Hydroid Pilfering from being affected by power strength for like 3-4x drops per kill (they had to update the loot limit on the ground because of that mod). More recently I think it was focused on the special rare mods from PoE assassination targets.

Did they need to change Prowl's looting? Probably not. Do I think they were trying to stay ahead of something (more than just sentient cores)? Probably.

[UjaAca]

Agreed with OP.
Also, quite disappointed with the way DE did is: As a footnote in a Tennogen update. :(

I did a few runs with 4 Ivara squad (probably a year ago) to farm Oxium once and to try to farm War parts a few times. I still don't have any War blade, and Ivara Oxium farm is by far the best teamplay I had in Warframe. Is it efficiant way to farm Oxium? Yes. Is it fun? Hell yeah! You spend time running around the map, marking Ospreys, having to have numbers in check before killing it, running for life supports, Watching Osprey kamikaze itself and crying... :) You know - active playstyle - something DE insist so much recently and yet, here they kill the only warframe who actually has to be mobile to gather resources, saying that now it is the same as Hydroid/Nekros whose playstyile is: Press 4/3 and pick up drops after one hour, extract, repeat.

What DE doesn't understand is: Nerfing Ivara won't bring those players to PoE, it will just diminish use of Ivara (whose majority use is outside of PoE). By letting 4 Ivara have 5 drops from one enemy, maybe they'll be able to max Quills standing outside of PoE, but what amount of players are we talking about? And if playerbase start maxing Quills this way, is it really the fault of the players, or PoE has some serious problems? Like I said, I tried 4xIvara War parts farm. I still don't have any War blade and I need 2 of them.

I love you DE, sorry for overall negativity recently, but with moving relics in Bounties to uncommon and the rest of reward table being terrible in Bounties, and now this with Ivara, I get the feeling we are playing on the opposite sides, not as a team to make Warframe the best it can be. Peace!

[kgabor]

Lol, forgot people on the forums talk a lot about things they have no idea of, Hydroid-s Pilfering Swarm is a one time Loot increase (also needs to kill the target for drops)so is Nekros while Nekros-s Desecrate is subpar compared to Prowl and Pilf S. with its 55% added drop chance. These two stack with each other but not with other Nekros Desecrate-s and Hydro Swarms. Ivara had no such limitations until now.

/thread

[CuChulainnWD]

I proposed a solution to Ivara's nerf in my own thread under warframe feedback.

Basically instead of nerfing how prowl works they should make the sentient core drops exempt from her pickpocket skill. Win win.

[ScribbleClash]

45 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Lol, forgot people on the forums talk a lot about things they have no idea of, Hydroid-s Pilfering Swarm is a one time Loot increase (also needs to kill the target for drops)so is Nekros while Nekros-s Desecrate is subpar compared to Prowl and Pilf S. with its 55% added drop chance. These two stack with each other but not with other Nekros Desecrate-s and Hydro Swarms. Ivara had no such limitations until now.

/thread

</pointless comment>
<thread>
You made no point at all with this. Pilfering Swarm has a 100% chance on kill to increase drops, which goes with the flow(It even has been improved to make it easier to use together with desecrate) of desecrate and does work directly against pickpocketing. Desecrate always gets the targets in its area, so a lower chance on drops is quite warranted. While it does not straigth up work against pickpocketing, it does work faster if the killing goes faster.
And what the hell do you mean with "one time Loot increase"!? Are you implying I can make MY Prowl cause several extra drops from enemies? If you think so, it is YOU who clearly has no idea about this.

Prowl does not effect multiple targets at once. Prowl needs a certain time per enemy to steal items. Prowl hinders your movement and REQUIRES an alive target to work. Unless Prowl is changed to steal from all targets in range at the same time and you're not stopped from using quick movements, Prowl has no chance of ever being considered a useful option here.

34 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

I proposed a solution to Ivara's nerf in my own thread under warframe feedback.

Basically instead of nerfing how prowl works they should make the sentient core drops exempt from her pickpocket skill. Win win.

Just as void traces, this could've been an easy solution. Since they did not consider doing this, there ought to be another reason for this nerf.

Edited February 16, 2018 by ScribbleClash

[Andele3025]

>solo vomba farm is fastest either way
>Nekros and Hydroid cant pull loot from em or a third of other enemies Ivara was used for due to no corpses/enemy poofs out

The 2 actual issues are:
1) there are not enough sentients/lua Tycho and Plato are the only missions with a not-entirely ungodly terrible spawn rate, yet everything thats unique to them has a drop chance as terrible as Stalking Fan from Corup snipers/nullies.

2) If Ivara needs a "buff", its to bug fix her Navigator to pause projectiles again so that she can use launcher weapons and Arca Plasmor (again).

[AzureTerra]

11 hours ago, UjaAca said:

Agreed with OP.
Also, quite disappointed with the way DE did is: As a footnote in a Tennogen update. :(

 

its not exactly a major change that needs to be a headline in a hotfix