We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

[Eisvogel]

I decided to make this post after chatting and pointing some things out in another post (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63428-cells-this-is-warframes-endgame/?p=1029345), which in my opinion is a GREAT idea and i'd love to see it in the game.... though first i would like DE to focus on some end-content and making the game interesting and more challenging. I think we all agree at this point that the game offers no endgame nor any challenge.

 

 

What is the current "endgame" ?

 

 

   At this point.... i think we have to agree that there's no actual endgame. If we had to say something..... I'd say the "endgame" is farming, and doing defense missions. Some would say that t3 def is the most challenging/endgame content along with nightmare missions. But I'd say that's far from it..... and even more, after getting nightmare and void things..... there's no point in ever bothering with them again....ever, that's not what I'd call endgame....

 

   What we need is both challenge and endgame.... and not some cheap stat increased enemies.... that means nothing, just more bullets.... that's no challenge and it's just as boring as what we have, except longer. It would just mean to spend more time firing or more time inside a frost's globe, etc.... you get the point.

 

 

Keep one thing in mind since some people tend to get confused about this, "endgame content" is not equal to "ending" or closure. I love the fact that WF is pretty open to keep making additions to the game and insert new features. We don't need a game ending or to wrap it up, we need end-game content and more challenges..... basically, more things to do and more variation when and while we finish the planets.

 

 

 

Why do we need to think about the future and endgame content, as well as Warframe current state?

 

   Well, because as we progress through the non-existent story/plot and finish the countless dots(missions) in the different planets. What usually happens is that players found themselves with little to do.... and repeat the same tasks, the same missions, the same runs.... over.... and over.... and over again. What's worse, we do this tasks half asleep or even fully asleep.... as they are repetitive and pose no threat or challenge to the player.

   As a result of this, a lot of players get worn out on the game very easily and many quit the game after getting too bored of repetition, lack of challenge and sense of accomplishment.

 

 

Now what can we suggest and discuss to try and change this current state?

 

 

 

Random Events / Stalker

 

   Let's take a look back at what the Stalker was, this guy put a hype on the community and it was on everyone's mouth when he started to assault young defenseless Tennos. Hell, when i first got lights flickering and some creepy voice in my ears... i was freaking out and dead scared.... ultimately, i was also plain dead :P.

   Why did the Stalker had such an impact in the game and community? I can't say for sure, but in my opinion, it was a huge break from the constant pace in missions... something random, mysterious and dangerous that would pop up your eyes wide open and draw your attention out of curiosity as well.

 

   I think it would be a nice addition to infuse the game with more of these random events that draw attention and spice up the pace of the game, as well as the player's enjoyment. Random events help keeping things interesting as well as adding more features and flavors to the game. It also opens up the option of linking lore to those random events (just like the Stalker), or simply more regular alternatives that just yield increased rewards for beating the random event.

 

Some ideas to start thinking about:

 

   - Assassin Squad:  We Tenno are running rampage on the galaxy, following the commands of the Lotus and killing people left and right under the impression we are doing the right thing (for whatever the reason we yet know nothing about). So, don't you think we are making some fellas mad all over the galaxy? It would make perfect sense that they dispatched pro assassins to wipe us out after our misdeeds (in that sense, similar to the stalker.... though linked to the things we know, like grineer/corpus factions and not a mysterious Tenno-like warrior). And i would love to feel a pulse, a real sense of random danger and ambiance.... for example, lights flickering? No, wipe out all lighting around and make it pitch black... remove the full vision, like with smoke deployed all around the squad and assassins coming out of the shadows to rip Tenno apart. The key factor is trying to give the player a real sense of danger (Stalker was nerfed so much that we lol at him now, and has 0.001% chance of killing us if we have at least a piece of useful gear) and would have to be able to kill Tenno and not just die like butter. In case this could prove too much for newer players, it could be implemented as a toggle mode where the players could choose to activate it for the rewards and the challenge. To clarify once more, this assassin squad would be composed of super elite units, not Stalkers. I envision this as something generic (we make bad guys angry, they pay someone to take us out), and not something tied to the lore and mysterious as Stalker.

 

   - Faction Favors:  Where there is gain, everything is possible. So would it be that strange for factions to suddenly beg us for help in exchange of something useful? For instance, maybe we are in a Grineer ship and the Corpus attack, and they offer us goodies/resources if we help them fend off the Corpus. The fomorian ships event was about helping the Corpus in exchange of something, so it wouldn't be crazy to think that can happen regularly in a smaller scale... after all, if there's a gain and The Lotus doesn't complain, why not? We have done it before.

 

   - Cryogenic Dreamland:  This idea came to me while looking at Tenno in cryo-pods and listening to the effects of it after so much time. It wouldn't surprise me that we had some aftereffects kick in from time to time. So i thought it could add a nice change of pace if we were suddenly doing or missions as we always do, and all of a sudden our dear Tenno grabs his head and falls to the ground in a blurry cut-scene. Next thing you know, everything is foggy, shapes are unclear and your vision is blurry (just a bit, let's not kill healthy eyes out there :P)..... enemies could present themselves in form of shadows, old fears, maybe blurry shapes of the old war (maybe even tease us a bit with shadows of Corpus without helmets). The effects could last until the end of a mission, effectively acting as a side feature for the mission.... or act as a parallel mission instead, waking up in the same place after ending the "dream". I think this would be a really cool way to add info/lore about the Tenno/frames (For example, an in-game base of knowledge, much like the Lore UI, where we would add tiny bits of info each time we succesfully complete "a dream").

 

 

 

Environment - Hazards

 

 

   Many of the suggestions already made below, indirectly address this topic. But i think it can use a little more focus and a bit of the spotlight.

 

   At the current moment, tile-sets are maps that we navigate obliterating enemies without stopping, farming containers if we are in that mood or rushing otherwise. Besides their design beauty (or not if you don't like some) and their visual appeal, they have little more than that. The only things that interact with the player are the farming objects (lockers, crates, boxes), the alarm/lock-down panels and the cameras/laser doors if you want. The rest of the tiles are static and even the mentioned things are not quite something to take into account in the gameplay.

 

   Why don't we infuse this nice tiles with a bit of life? There's a lot of things to add in this matter, a lot of ideas and simple concepts that can easily enrich the gameplay and the transition through each mission. And also it could present choices for both the enemy AI, and ourselves!!

 

Among these lines i can think of:

 

   - Electrified floors: Maybe they could be activated and deactivated by panels

 

   - Energy stationary shields powered by destroyable batteries:  This could come in two versions, a small one to just make instant cover for one similar to volt's shield... and a big version that could potentially cover groups of enemies or even objective targets and likely it would be powered by several batteries

 

   - Interactive infestation:  The infestation commonly found in infested maps, could do something other than just being there and randomly grab/trap the player, forcing him or the squad to slash his way out  ( Idea suggested by @Enguzrad here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1056778 )

 

   - Tile-set Hazards:  Anything you can imagine, erupting geysers in non-ship tiles, Toxic plants that could be very fitting for Phobos, random storms that could slow the player if icy or damage them as acid rain or thunderstorm, meteor shower in ship tiles (explosions and vacuums), etc

 

   - Enemy barricades/blockades:  It could probably be performed by any faction other than infestation, where the enemies would obstruct the way taking cover behind a bunker like structure, or it could also take the form of a breakable blocked that the player could damage/destroy to pass

 

   - Spiked floors/walls:  A nice classic trap

 

 

 

Current Bosses

 

 

   A good starting point would probably be the bosses..... bosses usually represent a big accomplishment.... the ultimate challenge of that stage/mission/world/etc. Here, bosses are just bullet sponges which you can kill half asleep or some even fully asleep. They remade Vor..... what's the change? There's no change.... just hide inside a frost globe... or keep your distance... or unleash hell into him and you now have to wait LONGER to kill him due those immunity states..... it just takes more time, that's about it.

 

Why not put some challenge into it? Examples of this:

 

   How about a boss that is NOT a bullet sponge? For instance, maybe a boss that chases you through the level.... or better yet, a big boss that chases you VERTICALLY and you have to parkour onto platforms or different floors, before the boss reaches you (likely instantly killing you) and you need to shoot him when you have the chance? How about that for a change of pace and a heartfelt experience?

 

   Leaving aside the parkour approach, one way or another.... bosses could use rework to actually be feared and not just discarded as another lame bullet sponge. Reaction phases are an easy way to accomplish this. For example, a grineer boss that from time to times stays in place charging a beam or a laser (whatever you want) and you have to react when it shoots you and dodge it to avoid being the new TennoToasty (it would bypass anything of course... no frost's globe handing or cheap safeguarding). Simple patterns that would you have to react and rely on your reflexes to try and do something different that just exchanging bullets or hide in a frost's globe or similar. There's a lot to expand here, and we could also get enemies to attack us in more interesting patterns, as well as making use of the terrain (like enemies that could actually climb walls or ceilings..... i mean come on, wouldn't it be exciting and plausible for the hyena to do that?).

   Bosses could really use more dynamic movements and attack patterns that make us react and adapt to the moment, not just immunity phases where we do nothing but wait.... that only extends the bullet sponge process.

 

   And it wouldn't hurt for challenging bosses to give better or even multiple drops (say, a big portion of random drops/rewards and a minor portion of fixed rewards to ease up the grinding and encourage the sense of accomplishment after defeating a challenging boss)

 

 

Raid Bosses

 

   Now that we have engaged the boss topic in a general manner and addressed the need of making them fearsome and challenging, let's take a look at the grand picture of the game. The game is PvE Co-Op based, but it really lacks a lot of elements to encourage that with the missions and things to do. And i would hardly say that void key beg spam is encouraging a healthy Co-Op gameplay.

   So how about this instead? Raid bosses special assignments/missions! We could take the revamped bosses to the next level. Say for example, that the Lotus Group has found a very important Orokin relic or valuable technology hidden in a barren planet, or secured in a bunker over an unknown planet, etc (there are many plots or ways to introduce different reasons for this, just putting some examples). Then we go there with specific elite squad, venturing into the unknown, oblivious as to what to expect and ready to complete our mission.

 

   To summarize, we would venture into a new unknown challenge for fixed great rewards and face the most bad-&#! of bosses, not just a pansy ready to get hammered, but the big bad voodoo of all bosses. These special raid missions could require a full squad to attempt, and they could even have limited attempts per day (to both encourage the excitement of doing something special, and also prevent abuse/exploit of fixed rewards from completing them).

 

 

 

Missions and level advancement

 

 

   How about to give some real use to parkour? For instance... how about missions where you have to keep moving, and using parkour to advance the level.... for example.... maybe you are escaping from an exploding ship and you can't rely on the floor because it's falling apart and you have to parkour with explosions behind you, and just keep at it for your life. Or maybe in asteroids missions, the asteroid had a reaction and lava is filling up the level, so there are no more floor paths to use and you have to parkour for your life, while killing some remaining enemies... or as a plot twist, the faction nuked the asteroid core and that's why everything is going to hell...... probably we can gather more ideas... but i think that covers the point.

 

   I am sure there are many more ideas to add to the current missions as well. I think one of the main issues is the lack of feeling the current missions have. Excluding defenses and bosses, there's really little going on in the missions. Let's take raids or sabotage, or rescue for instance..... you go there, do your thing and get out..... and the mission keeps the same pace from start to end. Really? That's it?

   Why not add some spice or some random factor or challenge to it? For example, are they really gonna let me get away with the hostage just like that? Isn't there some heavy gunfire and elite enemies (possibly a mini-boss if implemented) tactically positioned, waiting for a Tenno to try and break into the prison... to make some holes on them?

   Or are they really gonna let me raid them with the same enemies randomly spawning anywhere? Is there no special guarding squad, taking care of their much precious stuff? Can we take them just like that at a press of a simple panel? (additions could be a timed puzzle while reinforcements are about to breach the room, possibility of failure of a puzzle like game giving a debuff to the squad like shields reduction, energy impairment,etc....... ) or maybe the fact that actually messing with their stuff will bring consequences like a real heavy alarm with assassination squads deployed to kill us all.

 

   This could also open up new paths, for example... after we raid their ships/rescue prisoner/steal their data; are they gonna let us walk away just like that? Why not make it a random chance for them to try and stop that? For instance, the faction could attempt to self-destruct the ship in order to prevent you from escaping alive. This could very well be used as an opening for parts of the ship falling apart, floor shattering and make full use of parkour to escape alive. It could also be used to play with gravity, maybe giving the ship a feel of rotating (as drifting without a course in space) or total loss of gravity as well. Alternative paths instead of doors could also be implemented (it would make sense that after disabling or self destruct ship, a lot of doors would stay locked or jammed), adding more flavor and change of pace to the mission itself.

 

 

 

Enemies - Elites/Minibosses

 

 

   Here we face the same issue as with bosses but at grunt level.

   We just go through the levels wiping everything out and seeing the mindless ants vanish in thin air. When you are just starting and have no mods, this situation may vary a bit. But as soon as you get some of the "must have" mods and a decent weapon, you can easily destroy anything without much worry..... you also can just use a GG frame... there are many examples of this.... use frost and abuse globe to be virtually immortal, use Loki's super long invisibility to clear any level with ease, use wipe-out frames like rhino, banshee (not so much at later levels with armored targets), saryn, nova, etc.

 

   We can't expect each enemy to be the biggest threat to our lives. But they could definitely get some rework. Or at least, if DE wants to keep this feeling, add enemy attack groups that could pose something of a challenge to Tenno. Like for example a group of enemies with a miniboss or a super-elite commander which would confer special traits in the mission. For instance, they could create nullification zones that would prevent Tenno from using their skills (and effectively becoming immortal or wiping out enemies instantly). That special group could also have the ability to deploy a special grande that would render weapons unusable for a brief time.

   There are many more options that we could suggest and explore. And this kind of things would also open the path to explore a more complex, smart enemy AI with a whole lot more aspects to exploit and put into the game.

 

 

 

Loot/Drops

 

   This is just a tiny subsection that was born with the announcement of new loot tables "2.0" (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/94177-drop-tables-20/)

 

   The idea would be to make a simple in-game database that could be completed by the players. This could have info about each enemy type (added as you kill them). And upon killing enemies of each type, players could be able to unlock more information about that particular enemy type depending on thresholds. This way players would be able to unlock knowledge about each enemy, and get information about their drops... like what mods does this enemy drop, what are the %s of each drop, what's the % of this enemy dropping loot, etc.

   In a similar fashion, this could be applied to adding specific lore about each enemy as described in the Lore section below.

 

   An addition to motivate the player even further, could be to add a symbolic extra % to that particular enemy drops as the player unlocks more information about it.

 

 

 

 

Infested

 

   Talking specifically about infested enemies, they could really use a total rework. I think this issue doesn't trigger full awareness mainly because when in defense missions (mostly the only thing people play), it doesn't matter so much since they go to melee a stationary object that we have to protect. But that's not the case in any other mission type. I think i only get hit by infested enemies when i stop to chat with friends or clan-mates, in any other case they are practically a joke and something to be laughed at.

 

   In the matter of infested enemies in general, i think one of the biggest issues is mobility. They are melee only enemies, and their mobility is terrible... really terrible, and most easily avoided. In my opinion, they could use some actual movement tricks and a sense of threat. We could see the leapers as an attempt to this, though really lame.... what are they waiting to actually jump? a coded message? are they doing laundry before jumping? The first thought that comes to mind is to make them faster and to make them actually use the environment. For example, they could be given the ability to cling to walls.... or even walk the ceiling, which would make available more interesting attack patterns. I would also enjoy the idea of seeing them jumping, maybe even between walls and the ground, to make their mobility more effective and also make them less of a walking melee target.

 

   As far as elite units/minibosses, a range option could be explored. I don't really expect to see a fully ranged infested enemy... i mean, i think the trait of being mainly melee enemies it's ok (that is, after making their mobility actually effective). But that doesn't mean that they can't have any form of ranged attack. I was thinking something in the lines of Phorid bolts. For example, an elite/miniboss kind of enemy that looked mean and badass, filled with spikes.... it would stop and charge up, and then release a barrage of bolts towards the player (there could be two versions of it.... one that shoots a moderate amount of seeking bolts like Phorid.... and another one that shoots a lot of them but without seeking properties).

 

 

Grineer

 

WIP

 

 

Corpus

 

   Corpus and Grineer are very similar, as both enemies have mostly ranged units and for the majority of the situations the cover, positioning and shooting are the key factors to their AI and reactions in gameplay. There's also the thought of them being the faction with most advanced technology, yet it doesn't really show a lot just because an enemy type is a MOA doesn't say much of the actual faction enemies. They need to react to the environment and also to Tenno powers, are they really so dumb that they will just stay there shooting a Frost's globe (this could be understandable if the globe would break after taking X damage but that's not the case) or jumping into a Vauban's Bastille area?

 

   They could start showing some tech use on the battlefield, for example, the ability to deploy single fixed shield covers on the battle field instead of just running like foolishly amidst the chaos. They could also have the ability to deploy turrets, it would be related to their tech skills and it could make a nice addition to regular mission's pace. But probably with the current power ability system, and the fact that abilities are very powerful and very spammable, no matter the AI, cover or tactics.... enemies will be wiped out easy enough. So probably another use to the tech part would be a Tenno Power Nullification area (TPN has a nice ring to it doesn't it? :D.... the anti Tenno EMP :P) that Corpus could deploy to render abilities useless in that area.

   This skills in Corpus could be put into use into new Elite units or Minibosses instead of the regular units if they want to change the gameplay pace more gradually.

 

 

 

Lack of Lore in the game

 

 

   We all know it's a massive whole in Warframe. We have no story, no plot.... no nothing. We just pop up in a planetary System UI, and click dots on the screen doing the same missions over and over, with absolutely no plot/story progression or any kind of explanation of why are we going there or why are we following that path.

 

   We need more meaning and lore to what we already have.... what is the drive to completing these dots (AKA: missions)? No wonder DE says there are mission types like Rescue, Raid, Sabotage, etc that are the least played.... why of course, if there's no point or emotion in replaying them..... that's why after completing them we just do defense, mobile defense, bosses and maybe some specific farming point. And why do we do the missions? What is our motive in each dot (mission)? Why do you progress that way? What IS the actual progress of it?

   That could use some serious rework and missions could actually unlock lore as we progress, and have briefings to each mission and actual meaning to why we do them and how we are progressing towards something, instead of just clearing "dots". That would give them the feeling of uniqueness. They could also give us reasons to go back to previous missions or have something story-related happening, so we would need to revisit and fix it, possibly unlocking additional extra lore or such things.

 

   Another neat idea that could fly, is adding Lore components to the simple stuff in interesting ways.

   For example, we could gain lore about each enemy type as we kill them. There could be a set of given thresholds, that could be for instance fixed amounts of kills of each enemy type.... that would unlock more lore about them or their faction. Also a possibility, to give bonus drop % the more you unlock from that particular enemy (i think a game called "Atlantica" did something like this)

 

 

 

Thanks for your time and feedback, i greatly appreciate it!!!

 

 

Links to other threads i thought to improve the gameplay:

Alternate Tenno Role Progression System: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/99018-role-progression-tenno-title-ranking/

Warframe balancing and a way to put an end to nerfs: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/105231-how-to-achieve-balance-and-avoid-nerfing/

 

 

Links to suggestions entries made (if i missed anyone sorry, feel free to pm me the entry to add it =D ):

 

Enguzrad: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1043065

r3dzer0: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1044539

jpvi1207: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1050033

RazorTip: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1093829

Cracken: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1107801

jpvi1207: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1119845

r3dzer0: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1205153

KARMA2605: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1219663

 

Links to (while not direct suggestions) worth reading entries:

 

stacey69: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/?p=1066300

 

 

Links to other nice suggestion/feedback threads about improving the current gameplay:

 

snrd3r:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/98568-nyx-excal-rhino-banshee-ash-volt-warframe-abilities-interactivity-and-antimatter-drop/

notionphil: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63428-cells-this-is-warframes-endgame

Boatsniper: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96793-missions-have-no-depth-heres-how-to-fix-it/

alocrius: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/68907-tenno-foundation-for-martial-excellence/

jpvi1207: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/100643-lore-how-it-should-be/#entry1149383

RazorTip: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/113250-new-raid-type-infiltration/

 

 

 

Thanks again for reading this!!

Edited September 29, 2013 by Eisvogel

[Noah56]

First off, all rooms have a way to parkour through them. There was one room that required a wallrun to get through. There were way to many people complaining about it so the devs changed it. Also for endgame, the lore and storyline has just started! how can you ask for an end game if the game isn't complete? Also most of the bosses are getting a rework, just check the livestreams for info.

[litlit]

One problem with implementing bosses that are challenging, interesting, and engaging instead of bullet sponges is that Warframe is about 1 thing above all else: farming. As long as players are forced to farm bosses 30, 40, 50, even 60 times to get a frame they want, players are going to hate non- bullet sponge bosses.

 

I ran Kril 40-something times to get my Frost. Despite Kril's bullet sponginess, that boss fight is more interesting than the others, because it requires players to do something other than run up to the boss and kill it in a few seconds with a maxed weapon. But by my 20th run, or my 30th? The fun had long since disappeared.

 

Maybe this could be remedied by some sort of token system, or even the current RNG system with the caveat that you won't get duplicate Warframe part blueprints unless you have an equal number of all of them (so for example, if you have 1 copy of the systems, helmet, and chassis, you could get more as duplicates, but if you only have 1 helmet and 1 chassis, you will always get the systems next).

Edited August 9, 2013 by litlir

[Jugganatha]

That would be for regular missions, but to the main dish.... how about a boss that is NOT a bullet sponge? How about a boss that chases you through the level.... or better yet, a big boss that chases you VERTICALLY and you have to parkour onto platforms or different floors, before the boss reaches you (insta killing you) and shoot him when you have the chance? How about that for a change of pace and a heartfelt experience?

 

what is the drive to completing the dots (AKA: missions)? No wonder DE says there are mission types like Rescue, Raid, Sabotage, etc that are the least played.... why of course, if there's no point or emotion in replaying them..... that's why after completing them we just do defense, mobile defense, bosses and maybe some specific farming point. And why do we do the missions? What is our motive in each dot (mission)? Why do you progress that way? What IS the actual progress of it? That could use some serious rework and missions could actually unlock lore as we progress, and have briefings and actual meaning to why we do them and how we are progressing towards something, instead of just clearing "dots".

Following this, I'd like to see DE make it a point to wean this game off of tilesets eventually. As the game's story progresses and lore elements are incorporated into regular missions, the nodes will need to start feeling unique in order to make the story feel believable imo. I've found myself wandering what this game would feel like if it had a story campaign setup for mission progression.

[Eisvogel]

First off, all rooms have a way to parkour through them. There was one room that required a wallrun to get through. There were way to many people complaining about it so the devs changed it. Also for endgame, the lore and storyline has just started! how can you ask for an end game if the game isn't complete? Also most of the bosses are getting a rework, just check the livestreams for info.

 

Claiming "it's on beta" or "it isn't complete" doesn't cut it. The game is on soft release, period. We all know it's on beta and it will be "fully released" after some time...... with that said, do you expect us to avoid providing feedback? Would you rather people waited until the game is "released" (whenever that is) to give feed back? Or would you rather try to make the game the best it can be, as soon as possible... avoiding possible problems along the way while there's still time to do so?

[Shion963]

Claiming "it's on beta" or "it isn't complete" doesn't cut it. The game is on soft release, period. We all know it's on beta and it will be "fully released" after some time...... with that said, do you expect us to avoid providing feedback? Would you rather people waited until the game is "released" (whenever that is) to give feed back? Or would you rather try to make the game the best it can be, as soon as possible... avoiding possible problems along the way while there's still time to do so?

Saying "It's a Beta" isn't just dismissing it with a nametag, it's pointing out that the game is incomplete/unfinished, and should be treated as such.

 

"No Endgame". So? It's a beta. It's unfinished. Steve himself said that he knows Warframe needs an Endgame, but don't know whati it would be.

It's an incomplete game that needs work, not a complete object that is lacking these things.

 

Imagine if the DEvs said "Oh the game is complete, it's already released" without endgame, trading options, sucky UI, OP weapons, simple bulletsponge enemies.

[litlit]

No, 99.99% of the time, saying "it's beta" is a lazy way to dismiss someone's criticism.

 

Everyone knows it's a beta. We're beta testers, and beta testers are supposed to give feedback. That means lots of criticism.

 

And since DE has decided it's okay to take players' money even though it's only a beta, players are entitled to be harsh (though of course, only if they are constructive and are not abusive).

 

Furthermore, there are some things that there is no excuse for, even in betas. For example: the chat system. Seriously, it's been almost a decade since I've seen a chat interface that bad.

Edited August 9, 2013 by litlir

[Eisvogel]

Yeah that's exactly the thing.... and i have to agree on the chat system :/

 

And Shion, we all know it's unfinished.... so do we wait and give no feedback as how to continue to improve the game and wait for mistakes to be made or the game ruined to say something?

 

Also, don't confuse things.... It's not an alpha or a closed beta..... and while it is in beta.... it's soft-released.... OPEN BETA, that changes things a lot. Not to mention that they are already taking our money.

 

I think a lot of us really enjoy this game, and if we go out of our way to give constructive feedback and ideas.... is to try to improve the game, and also avoid losing important parts of the playerbase since a lot of people get worn out on the game, due to every enemy being a bullet sponge, due lack of challenge, due lack of lore, due lack of any drive/motivation to do things in the game..... mostly, when people max what they want and complete things.... they get bored with nothing interesting to do and quit........ some come back when updates are released..... a lot get drawn to other games or just don't come back.

 

I myself really like this game and i think DE has a good thing going. So i will do what i can to help and give feedback to try to steer it in the best possible direction, along with many other players that also love this game and want it to reach it's true potential.

[Khranitel]

How about to give some real use to parkour? 

Not before they do something with finger-breaking controls. This is not a challenge, but punishment.

 

...

I said it earlier, and say it again. We need: better AI, including enemy working as a group, and playing a specific role in it; clear and distinctive rules of engagement for every enemy type (and enemy types that really differs from each other); to lower enemy count, but increase their potential threat to player. Those changes will make battles much more interesting and greatly rise the replayability.

 

Also, DE, I will repeat this nth time: please look at Mass Effect 3 multiplayer as example of what I'm saying. This is a very different game, do not CC it, because most of Bioware's design decisions won't work in Warframe, nevertheless, there you can find a source of inspiration about things that I mentioned earlier. 

 

...

After I made my post, I found another topic made by Arlayn: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92322-not-agreeing-with-the-rants-but-de-needs-to-back-track/ A quote from it:

 

Maybe it isn't RNG that has us all freaking out... Because I like RNG the way it is... What bothers me is game functionality... and how enemies function. I would find this game far more addicting if people had a favorite enemy to kill, or fight against. Everyone has that boss that was totally fun to fight in every game, and every player has that enemy that was thrilling to fight in groups. It would get you going like yeah I am going to fight these guys again I wonder how they are going to attack me this time, and how should I counter?

Couldn't say it better.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Khranitel

[Pekku]

No, 99.99% of the time, saying "it's beta" is a lazy way to dismiss someone's criticism.

 

Everyone knows it's a beta. We're beta testers, and beta testers are supposed to give feedback. That means lots of criticism.

 

And since DE has decided it's okay to take players' money even though it's only a beta, players are entitled to be harsh (though of course, only if they are constructive and are not abusive).

 

Furthermore, there are some things that there is no excuse for, even in betas. For example: the chat system. Seriously, it's been almost a decade since I've seen a chat interface that bad.

 

Beta testers are supposed to give feedback/report on current available content though, not suggest for content that will no doubt be included in a future/finished build.

[Jamescell]

Agreed, making farming easier and increasing the challenge of the game, a good start being bosses,would increase the fun of the game exponentially, this is the first successful card game shooter, but being a card game shooter is not what attracts players.

[Eisvogel]

Agreed, making farming easier and increasing the challenge of the game, a good start being bosses,would increase the fun of the game exponentially, this is the first successful card game shooter, but being a card game shooter is not what attracts players.

 

 

-snip-

 

And it wouldn't hurt for challenging bosses to give better or even multiple drops (say, a big portion of random drops/rewards and a minor portion of fixed rewards to ease up the grinding and encourage the sense of accomplishment after defeating a challenging boss)

 

-snip-

 

Players could really use this as a sense of accomplishment and an actual rewards for completing a big task, instead of everything going rampage on full RNG. And we don't really need to kill RNG (even though some would love it =P), they could just give a minor fixed reward/drop and the rest could be RNG as it is.

[Enguzrad]

Sounds good. So anyone has some ideas how to improve current bosses and enemies?

[battlelamb]

Because of the topic locked i post it here if you don't mind

 

I saw your post above, that's a nice one.

 

For people too lazy to read...... two things:

 

1) Prolly you shouldn't bother since people who are too lazy to read, are even more lazy and useless to contribute anything worthwhile

 

2) You can make a TL;DR section at the start or at the end of your thread, summarizing topics or whatever you want to sum up.

 

=3

Maybe you are right, i shouldn't even bother.

 

Yeah i always try to do that.

 

anyways your topic also nice +1

 

everyone has a right to say just one thing "constructive criticism"

 

yours are :)

 

Maybe DE or some CM should make a poll for this kind a thing like;

 

"We read most of the topics about the subjects similar and made a poll for you to vote so we can see which one is more important to the players, it will go to the top of our to-do list and we will inform you about the developments."

[RaianStar]

This link will take you to a great idea for endgame content.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63428-cells-this-is-warframes-endgame/

[Eisvogel]

This link will take you to a great idea for endgame content.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63428-cells-this-is-warframes-endgame/

 

Have you read this thread.... at all? XD

 

That's the link i referenced at the start of this thread....

 

 

Also, that is not endgame content. That's a REALLY NICE idea for an additional feature and complementary multipled-arc missions, with a lot of extra components. It's really good and very polished  and i would LOVE to see that added to the game..... but as mentioned and discussed in that same thread, it's more an additional feature..... we first need the game to be more challenging... more exciting, less repetitive and boring.... give us a sense of belonging and encourage us to deepen ourselves into the game..... we need endgame content, something to do and to challenge ourselves when we finished the dots (AKA: missions.... since atm, they are just that... dots)

Edited August 9, 2013 by Eisvogel

[RaianStar]

Following this, I'd like to see DE make it a point to wean this game off of tilesets eventually. As the game's story progresses and lore elements are incorporated into regular missions, the nodes will need to start feeling unique in order to make the story feel believable imo. I've found myself wandering what this game would feel like if it had a story campaign setup for mission progression.

Most spaceships would probably come off of an assembly line and would have very similar designs...  Identical levels across the solar system would take away from the game.  The tile set system allows for interesting designs to be generated.  I truly believe that tile sets can get you the experience that you're looking for, you just need to wait for the algorithms to become more sophisticated and for the variety to increase.

[RaianStar]

Have you read this thread.... at all? XD

 

That's the link i referenced at the start of this thread....

 

 

Also, that is not endgame content. That's a REALLY NICE idea for an additional feature and complementary multipled-arc missions, with a lot of extra components. It's really good and very polished  and i would LOVE to see that added to the game..... but as mentioned and discussed in that same thread, it's more an additional feature..... we first need the game to be more challenging... more exciting, less repetitive and boring.... give us a sense of belonging and encourage us to deepen ourselves into the game..... we need endgame content, something to do and to challenge ourselves when we finished the dots (AKA: missions.... since atm, they are just that... dots)

Sorry I missed it :(  I'm pretty tired :s

 

You want me to delete?

Edited August 9, 2013 by RaianStar

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Don't worry, i don't mind =3

 

About the poll thing... i dunno.... that would mean a lot of things.... for instance, with many threads appearing about things.... they would have extra work, finding them all, matching them and making a poll....... also, probably good ideas would be missed/left out in the process. There's also the abuse... like some players/clans do.... that they get their clan members to vote their posts even if they are complete garbage or offer no suggestion at all.... so i dunno about that.

[Eisvogel]

Sorry I missed it :(  I'm pretty tired :s

 

You want me to delete?

 

Lol don't worry... you didn't murder anyone :3 :P

[fatpig84]

I prefer fixes over content first and lore.

Screw the endgame. For now.

It is partly OUR fault (including mine) that we progress too quickly.

I started on 30th May. Actively played since 1st June. now I am a few points shy of Mastery 9 and that's playing semi-casually (about 2 to 3 hours a day).

But we should fix the core aspect of the game first.

Armor scaling (which will fix the weapon issues nearly completely).

Enemy scaling and firepower cap.

Resistance.

Parkour mechanics.

Make block useful.

Drop system.

RNG limiter in a form of a token system.

Etc.

All this will have far more profound effects.

Then DE can make new content.

Edited August 9, 2013 by fatpig84

[RaianStar]

I prefer fixes over content first and lore.

 

-snip-

 

we should fix the core aspect of the game first.

 

-snip-

All this will have far more profound effects.

Then DE can make new content.

I agree in the sense that smaller fixes can have a compounding impact on the end game.  Creating too much content on unsteady foundations can create more work in the long run.

 

That said, I still thing that endgame content is vitally important as it's the support of the people who have got to the end game (and that's not me yet) who have made this game possible.  It would be ill-advised to neglect your most dedicated customers.

[fatpig84]

I agree in the sense that smaller fixes can have a compounding impact on the end game.  Creating too much content on unsteady foundations can create more work in the long run.

 

That said, I still thing that endgame content is vitally important as it's the support of the people who have got to the end game (and that's not me yet) who have made this game possible.  It would be ill-advised to neglect your most dedicated customers.

 

The thing is I am already alienated. I can't use more than 3/4 of the weapons and damage skills in endgame scenarios

 

Shotguns can't compete.

Even Despair and Ogris will start to falter against infested ancients higher than level 130.

Even the "uber" Molecular Prime that everyone screams for nerfs is nothing but a slow + damage debuff vs level 150 enemies, because without it, Nova has no utility.

Avalanche can't even down wave 15 mobs on Gaia defense with a Squall helmet and that is for sure not even end game.

 

 

I will be forced to use more Physics impact / Serrated Blade / Armor ignoring weapons and skills just to remain competitive.

That is locking me into content. I be clear that I never liked the Boltor, but because of how high things are scaling, I must use a boltor and the flux rifle as an assault weapon. 

 

Torid is alright in defence, but offensively it hurts me as much as the ogris. So that's a no go for me. Beside Acrid can do it for a lot safer.

 

 

So yeah fix this first, then everything will naturally fall into place.

Edited August 9, 2013 by fatpig84

[RaianStar]

The thing is I am already alienated. I can't use more than 3/4 of the weapons and damage skills in endgame scenarios

 

-snip-

 

So yeah fix this first, then everything will naturally fall into place.

Very good point.  Thank you for your insight.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

While it's valid, the weapons are supposed to scale in such a way.... like how the clan weapons are build with very high res costs, they also need to be researched and even ask for a forma to build, or like how despair is a stalker drop. The absurd things are how weapons like orthos or kunai are available right off the market, maybe not so much with orthos (even if it's on par or better than HATE) since it's a melee.

 

But what you say about weapons it's also a matter of a lack of any sense of progression at all, and simply because the just keep releasing "items" and stuff like that... instead of actual game content to keep us busy and actually do something with the stuff we already have.

The scaling problem, also has a much bigger impact than it should in the gameplay... because the only thing left for us to do... is def def def def..... and enemies grow in level and the scaling goes to hell after a few waves (and the armor thing gets more noticeable).

 

While i agree there are lots of bugs and things to balance/fix.... i'd rather have something to do first and also prevent players from quitting an awesome game (i believe this game is great and has AMAZING potential) because they got worn out or they are utterly bored of doing the same things over and over due the fact they have nothing left to do.