Unvualted relics are beyond unfair.

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

So in the early weeks of Warframe's unvaulting of relics quickly I learned the drops would be on the plains. 

I don't necessarily mind the plains as a MR24 player I've been ignoring it because of the massive grind from bounties for Gara turned me completely off from anything plains related. I found myself so burnt out on the plains that I actually stopped playing the game for a bit because even after the patch for bounty rewards they still weren't rewarding enough. No 200kuva/cryotic isn't worth it!

So skipping forward back to the recent weeks I found a lot of enjoyment in the plains because my buddy who is fairly new LOVES ember and REALLY wanted her prime so I said sure thing and began a VERY entertaining and enjoyable farm for the relics while collecting onstron standing and even hitting my cap daily and getting about 10 of each relic not including the low teir stuff so that we could grind gara together (2 birds 1 stone) ....

However....

About 2 weeks after the unvaulting you guys at DE released a "hotfix" saying that there was a bug making it "harder" to get relics for some other players but in practice I've noticed the exact opposite. 

What was 1 relic every to everyother run has now become 10 to 1.... Seriously I still haven't gotten ANY meso E1s. And I've done that bounty at least 15 times. It has genuinely become so frustrating to even go into cetus and try to enjoy the game when I literally have play for hours and have nothing to show for it. 

I'll be brutally honest and just say that you guys intentionally scewed the drop rates at this point because aftet all of the grinding that I've done this feels to be the worst form of player transparency. I'm at the point were I don't even do bounties anymore which sucks because I was literally loving cetus a week ago and now I avoid it like the plague.  

This really sucks because if I'm having this much trouble with my speed runs I can only imagine how much BS this must feel like to newer players. I don't even want ember I'm just trying to get it for my friend.

Smh thumbs down DE 

[Aggh]

  For meso relics all they really did was move the relic that was in the first phase to the last phase.  They've still got around a 13% chance to drop until the last phase where it's 33.33%.  Pretty much all that changed was that you're actually forced to complete the bounty if you want the best chance at more relics.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

11 minutes ago, Aggh said:

  For meso relics all they really did was move the relic that was in the first phase to the last phase.  They've still got around a 13% chance to drop until the last phase where it's 33.33%.  Pretty much all that changed was that you're actually forced to complete the bounty if you want the best chance at more relics.

That is still decreasing the chance even more than they were before, which is another problem.

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

It should be changed, so that just 1 stage has a very high chance for a relic. I have never been so salty over drops

Edited February 18, 2018 by (PS4)PS_90210

[(PSN)dst123daniel]

I agree, when the unvaulting started, getting relics was quite reliable, usually getting at least one relic every 1 or 2 bounties. Then DE moved the relics to the uncommon tier and introduced a normal relic into the common drop, and it became far harder to get the vaulted relic

And this is without mentioning the bounty reward pool rotations. I can play for 6 hours at a time, and watch the bounty rewards rotate, but yet I hardly ever see the axi L1 relic available. I am probably missing another relic or two too!

[Scharfohr]

1 hour ago, (PS4)dst123daniel said:

I agree, when the unvaulting started, getting relics was quite reliable, usually getting at least one relic every 1 or 2 bounties. Then DE moved the relics to the uncommon tier and introduced a normal relic into the common drop, and it became far harder to get the vaulted relic

You can blame the Playerbase for that, way too much idiots that joined public then only played first one or just stayed afk at the door and then quit causing host migration.

So Congratulations the Playerbase played themself.

[Urabask]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

That is still decreasing the chance even more than they were before, which is another problem.

The only relics that had their drop chanced decreased by a noticeable amount were Axi relics.  When they moved them from the first stage to the last stage they went from a 50% drop rate to a 43.18% drop rate.  Even then Axi relics have a really high drop rate (27-33% in the earlier stages of the bounty) though so it's not really a big deal. Otherwise the drops rates are similar or better.  It's also still much more consistent than farming them in starchart missions ever would have been.

2 hours ago, Scharfohr said:

You can blame the Playerbase for that, way too much idiots that joined public then only played first one or just stayed afk at the door and then quit causing host migration.

So Congratulations the Playerbase played themself.

^ This.

I lost at least ten relics because host was too lazy to extract.

3 hours ago, (PS4)dst123daniel said:

I agree, when the unvaulting started, getting relics was quite reliable, usually getting at least one relic every 1 or 2 bounties. Then DE moved the relics to the uncommon tier and introduced a normal relic into the common drop, and it became far harder to get the vaulted relic

And this is without mentioning the bounty reward pool rotations. I can play for 6 hours at a time, and watch the bounty rewards rotate, but yet I hardly ever see the axi L1 relic available. I am probably missing another relic or two too!

The normal relics added weren't really changing the drop rate. Removing them was actually worse given that now instead of extra relics we just get endo.

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Urabask

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

14 hours ago, Aggh said:

  For meso relics all they really did was move the relic that was in the first phase to the last phase.  They've still got around a 13% chance to drop until the last phase where it's 33.33%.  Pretty much all that changed was that you're actually forced to complete the bounty if you want the best chance at more relics.

Okay let me stop you here. First off the bounty missions are 3 separate mission per. Secondly adding anything to a pool will inevitably decrease your chances as it is now something else competing for the item you want which is a statisical fact this is actual math and common sense. Third DE has stated drop rates and lied before(sure we held them accountable when coders dug up the truth but now our coders or w/e aren't really doing that anymore in fear if legal actions) 4th when did I ever say I didn't finish my bounties. I said I've ran over 15ish with now relics to show for. Idgf what type of percentages you show me. 15x3 is 45 missions and I still don't have a "chance" to even obtain e1 anything. If you think people should do that for relics your a dunce. 

Sry for not keeping it civil but you're being an ass. Saying they didn't change the drop rate then explaining how they changed the drop rate? 

No the drop rate is trash and near non existent. Never should anyone have to play 45 missions for 1 relic.

6 hours ago, Scharfohr said:

You can blame the Playerbase for that, way too much idiots that joined public then only played first one or just stayed afk at the door and then quit causing host migration.

So Congratulations the Playerbase played themself.

No that's not the player base that's still DE. They know most people hate PoE after realizing how much grind it is. Do i blame them no. Are they $&*^s ya. But DE needs to fix that not us. Easiest way to fix it is simple. If the player doesn't get to the objective area in x time they are forcibly booted from squad easy solution.

4 hours ago, Urabask said:

The only relics that had their drop chanced decreased by a noticeable amount were Axi relics.  When they moved them from the first stage to the last stage they went from a 50% drop rate to a 43.18% drop rate.  Even then Axi relics have a really high drop rate (27-33% in the earlier stages of the bounty) though so it's not really a big deal. Otherwise the drops rates are similar or better.  It's also still much more consistent than farming them in starchart missions ever would have been.

The normal relics added weren't really changing the drop rate. Removing them was actually worse given that now instead of extra relics we just get endo.

Again you don't understand how these percentages actually work out. Them adding something to the bronze tier whilst moving the vaulted stuff to silver has extreme affects on drop rates like I already said. They added something that's more likely to drop to the pool then made the relic less likely to drop that has literally affectedd the drop rates so much that in 45 mission I haven't gotten 1 relic. On the starchat unvaulting I could easily gather 10 or more of each teir with 100x less effort and even if it was 1/4 missions to a relic that's still not 0/45 quit being dumb and actually look at what y'all are typing. 

Mind you the worst part is that getting a relic isn't even a guarantee it's literally a "chance" to get what you want.

 

P.s this was a message to DE if you disagree you didn't have to reply as this wasn't ment for you.

[Aggh]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

That is still decreasing the chance even more than they were before, which is another problem.

No, it had an uncommon drop chance and the final bounty didn't have any relics.  It has a common drop chance in the final stage now.  All it means is you can't bum rush the bounty to maximize some uncommon drop chances.

20 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Aquarii Ptosi said:

Secondly adding anything to a pool will inevitably decrease your chances as it is now something else competing for the item you want which is a statisical fact this is actual math and common sense.

Except that pool had the same amount of unvaulted relics per bounty before the change so no, it doesn't really change much.   

 

22 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Aquarii Ptosi said:

Third DE has stated drop rates and lied before(

And that's why they have the live drop rates posted auto updated here now:

https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/repos/hnfvc0o3jnfvc873njb03enrf56.html

 

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Aquarii Ptosi said:

No the drop rate is trash and near non existent. Never should anyone have to play 45 missions for 1 relic.

Oh look it's an idiot with bad luck who doesn't understand RNG.  Plenty of people haven't :/

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Aggh

[Scharfohr]

38 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Aquarii Ptosi said:

No that's not the player base that's still DE. They know most people hate PoE after realizing how much grind it is. Do i blame them no. Are they $&*^s ya. But DE needs to fix that not us. Easiest way to fix it is simple. If the player doesn't get to the objective area in x time they are forcibly booted from squad easy solution.

Actually yes you can. If Everybody who wants to shorten the grind would have gone solo instead of making the Game mode unplayable for everybody else in Public I am pretty sure DE wouldn't have changed it so fast. Reminds me of my school days, on of the guys of another class stole a test that was gonna be written but instead of stealing just one and copying that they stole all copies of that. So the Teacher realized that and made a new harder one. (He even said we can blame the idiot whole stole every test for it)

Just another Case of People acting stupid and pulling attention to them. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Scharfohr

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

1 hour ago, Scharfohr said:

Actually yes you can. If Everybody who wants to shorten the grind would have gone solo instead of making the Game mode unplayable for everybody else in Public I am pretty sure DE wouldn't have changed it so fast. Reminds me of my school days, on of the guys of another class stole a test that was gonna be written but instead of stealing just one and copying that they stole all copies of that. So the Teacher realized that and made a new harder one. (He even said we can blame the idiot whole stole every test for it)

Just another Case of People acting stupid and pulling attention to them. 

Punishing the majority for a few people's actions isn't how you appropriately solve a problem and we aren't children in school we are people who have invested time and money into a "game" for an enjoyable experience. This isn't free child daycare it's a business the two don't equate.

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

1 hour ago, Aggh said:

Oh look it's an idiot with bad luck who doesn't understand RNG.  Plenty of people haven't :/

 

This isnt even about luck again you've missed the point im well aware of rng and how it works especially after playing this game daily for roughly 4 years. This is about player fairness and this unvaulting is far from it but yet again this post wasn't for you this was for DE if you want to spend 10+ hrs grinding for 1 relic (which isn't an exaggeration) then by all means be that guy/girl  but plz spare us without the ability to do so your bias.

[Aggh]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Aquarii Ptosi said:

This isnt even about luck again you've missed the point im well aware of rng and how it works especially after playing this game daily for roughly 4 years. This is about player fairness and this unvaulting is far from it but yet again this post wasn't for you this was for DE if you want to spend 10+ hrs grinding for 1 relic (which isn't an exaggeration) then by all means be that guy/girl  but plz spare us without the ability to do so your bias.

After playing this game for five years I can tell you that this grind for a specific relic really isn't any worse than grinding for any other specific relic.  The only difference is you don't get a bunch of relics you weren't looking for in between.

[Urabask]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)Aquarii Ptosi said:

Again you don't understand how these percentages actually work out. Them adding something to the bronze tier whilst moving the vaulted stuff to silver has extreme affects on drop rates like I already said. They added something that's more likely to drop to the pool then made the relic less likely to drop that has literally affectedd the drop rates so much that in 45 mission I haven't gotten 1 relic. On the starchat unvaulting I could easily gather 10 or more of each teir with 100x less effort and even if it was 1/4 missions to a relic that's still not 0/45 quit being dumb and actually look at what y'all are typing.

 

This: 

Is the drop table for the Meso E1 relic bounties.  The drop chances are what are actually listed there.  

Meso relics in Defense have a 16.67% chance of dropping (and are "uncommon").  Unvaulted relics would've been added to that table and the Meso table would've gotten three relics .  So with eight relics plus endo all at an equal drop chance in rotation A that would drop the chance to 11.11% per relic.  So no, you would not have gotten more relics if they were added to starchart missions.  And to actually get the same number of rolls as a four stage bounty you would've had to do 15 waves of defense (and technically you would have to drop at wave ten and do another five wave run because of the rotation).

Edited February 19, 2018 by Urabask

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I feel like pretty much every decent drop, of any kind, just quit dropping for me after the last patch, bounty or not.  I haven't gotten any of the things I've farmed for in so long that I'm about to quit out of sheer frustration.  If I never see Uranus again it'll be too soon, but that GD Condition Overload still won't drop.  

[Klokwerkaos]

I have to say I'm pretty salty here on this too.

This is BS.  The concept is "you don't have to pay to play" and while I do pay for stuff for DE pretty regularly (I usually drop cash about once a month), I don't think i should have to buy stuff if I am not keen on it.

It feels precisely like this is "unless you play 24/7 all three months, good luck getting the drops you want and MAYBE (lol) a set to sell".

When you have to run 5 stage axi bounties 5-10 times before getting a single relic which you then drop 100 radiant into in order to get another common prime part it's BS.  Not every person under the sun can play 10 hours a day.  Overall huge turn off for a paying customer.  I was excited about this unvaulting, now I'm just bitter.  It really feels like the drop rates are set up for a short sighted cash grab with access packs rather than making it so you are choosing to support DE, which is generally why I spend the money, because I love the game and would like to CHOOSE to support them, not feel boxed in like I CAN'T possibly get the drops at all even when I'm a super active daily player of at least 4 hours, sometimes over 10.

My thought was maybe I'll buy those cosmetics, because it will be cool to support them once I earn all the drops in game!  I should have no problem with that since I'm sure I play this game at least as much as the devs do and they would know better than to make this nigh impossible to farm right? right?... well, F that theory to hell because there is no way I can get all the stuff I need in the three months time with this kind of drop rate at MR 19, 7 polarity nidus with fully loaded tigris prime, atterax and akstilletto prime and more archwing summons than I can shake a stick at... I should totally be able to do this and it's looking like that's impossible.

Its super frustrating to me that while I'm not set up as well as say the people who are founders who have played every day since launch, I'm still pretty far up there and this is completely out of reach; like, not remotely feasible.  This also feels dumb too because they are Fing the plat economy too... if there were more sets to sell people might actually spend plat on them, and they would buy that plat, maybe even excess plat to have a set to sell later when it's worth more... this just seems so stupid to me.

Mark me down as entirely disappointed.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[BogusHero]

Please, please, please make changes to the loot table for the unvaulted relics, especially the Meso and Neo relics. Final stage may have the highest drop chance for relics, but the odds on other item are also high. The amount of time I put into these bounties vs. what I get in return is ridiculous, I just want a few relics. My last 5 Meso runs gave me 0 relics, got quite a few Gara neuros tho'.

[Klokwerkaos]

because all you need when you already have gara is more gara!!!  I mean she's such a useful frame why not have 50 and no relics?!?!?!

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Welcome to Warfarm... I mean Grindframe...

Grindfarm.

this is a more realistic representation of the content of the game.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[(PSN)Fairfied]

On 2/18/2018 at 5:15 PM, (Xbox One)Aquarii Ptosi said:

So in the early weeks of Warframe's unvaulting of relics quickly I learned the drops would be on the plains. 

I don't necessarily mind the plains as a MR24 player I've been ignoring it because of the massive grind from bounties for Gara turned me completely off from anything plains related. I found myself so burnt out on the plains that I actually stopped playing the game for a bit because even after the patch for bounty rewards they still weren't rewarding enough. No 200kuva/cryotic isn't worth it!

So skipping forward back to the recent weeks I found a lot of enjoyment in the plains because my buddy who is fairly new LOVES ember and REALLY wanted her prime so I said sure thing and began a VERY entertaining and enjoyable farm for the relics while collecting onstron standing and even hitting my cap daily and getting about 10 of each relic not including the low teir stuff so that we could grind gara together (2 birds 1 stone) ....

However....

About 2 weeks after the unvaulting you guys at DE released a "hotfix" saying that there was a bug making it "harder" to get relics for some other players but in practice I've noticed the exact opposite. 

What was 1 relic every to everyother run has now become 10 to 1.... Seriously I still haven't gotten ANY meso E1s. And I've done that bounty at least 15 times. It has genuinely become so frustrating to even go into cetus and try to enjoy the game when I literally have play for hours and have nothing to show for it. 

I'll be brutally honest and just say that you guys intentionally scewed the drop rates at this point because aftet all of the grinding that I've done this feels to be the worst form of player transparency. I'm at the point were I don't even do bounties anymore which sucks because I was literally loving cetus a week ago and now I avoid it like the plague.  

This really sucks because if I'm having this much trouble with my speed runs I can only imagine how much BS this must feel like to newer players. I don't even want ember I'm just trying to get it for my friend.

Smh thumbs down DE 

Sounds like you have typical veteran burnout syndrome.  The grind isn't so bad for new players because its all new and interesting, they haven't played hundreds of hours of the same easy missions over and over, and they are progressing so quickly because they have so much to do.

For veterans its all easy, repetitive, non-challenging, and non-rewarding grind.  This is why player retention is terrible in this game, and why the ratio of new players to veterans is so bad.  Where am I getting this info from you might ask, mainly observation.  I have 6500 hours of gameplay time, I run a clan, and I have seen and experienced so much in this game, including watching hundreds of players come and go.

I would love it if DE created a second stage in this game which is hidden from new players and is exclusive for vets.  In this new area a massive amount of grind has been removed.  Gameplay is full of challenge and reward.  There is a big emphasis on teamwork, co-ordination, communication, and co-operation, though there are also challenges designed for solo play as well.  Most of what I imagine wouldn't require the creation too many new assets, you just mess around with what already exists. The focus/mantra in this area is all about Fun, this is how to keep vets playing, keep them happy, and give them an enjoyable experience.  This is what vets have earned and is the only thing that will keep most of them playing.  For vets grind is not fun.  I'll write up huge explanation of what I am envisaging at a later date.

Good luck Tenno!

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Fairfied
spelling

[(PSN)Fairfied]

On 2/19/2018 at 1:06 AM, Scharfohr said:

You can blame the Playerbase for that, way too much idiots that joined public then only played first one or just stayed afk at the door and then quit causing host migration.

So Congratulations the Playerbase played themself.

or was it the boring grind that prompted the player-base to employ these tactics?

[(PSN)Fairfied]

On 2/19/2018 at 8:19 AM, Aggh said:

 

Oh look it's an idiot with bad luck who doesn't understand RNG.  Plenty of people haven't :/

 

Name calling probably not needed, just reduces the conversation to an insult match where the issue gets lost and is unresolved. 

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

19 hours ago, (PS4)Fairfied said:

Sounds like you have typical veteran burnout syndrome.  The grind isn't so bad for new players because its all new and interesting, they haven't played hundreds of hours of the same easy missions over and over, and they are progressing so quickly because they have so much to do.

For veterans its all easy, repetitive, non-challenging, and non-rewarding grind.  This is why player retention is terrible in this game, and why the ratio of new players to veterans is so bad.  Where am I getting this info from you might ask, mainly observation.  I have 6500 hours of gameplay time, I run a clan, and I have seen and experienced so much in this game, including watching hundreds of players come and go.

I would love it if DE created a second stage in this game which is hidden from new players and is exclusive for vets.  In this new area a massive amount of grind has been removed.  Gameplay is full of challenge and reward.  There is a big emphasis on teamwork, co-ordination, communication, and co-operation, though there are also challenges designed for solo play as well.  Most of what I imagine wouldn't require the creation too many new assets, you just mess around with what already exists. The focus/mantra in this area is all about Fun, this is how to keep vets playing, keep them happy, and give them an enjoyable experience.  This is what vets have earned and is the only thing that will keep most of them playing.  For vets grind is not fun.  I'll write up huge explanation of what I am envisaging at a later date.

Good luck Tenno!

You're 100% right bro I'm definitely burnt out but I still have the aptitude to see how truly and depressingly unfair this is. I've taken a break from this post and still kept grinding(reduced from 10ish+ daily to about 3). However only today did I get 1 e1. Just 1 in over a week of farming. This would be acceptable for a perminate mod like Veng rev or w/e but these are relics and in my history of this game has obtaining 1 relic been this hard. Even when new frames are added I can easy gather up about about 4 of each relic in the first day(3hrs generally for relic farming) but this is just outta hand. I used to run one of the biggest Xbox One clans b4 it disbanded and went to poo so I've heard stories from others to but this can not possibly be me only and from the comments and pubs my point seems validated these relics arent fair.

Ty

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

On 2/18/2018 at 9:19 PM, Urabask said:

 

This: 

Is the drop table for the Meso E1 relic bounties.  The drop chances are what are actually listed there.  

Meso relics in Defense have a 16.67% chance of dropping (and are "uncommon").  Unvaulted relics would've been added to that table and the Meso table would've gotten three relics .  So with eight relics plus endo all at an equal drop chance in rotation A that would drop the chance to 11.11% per relic.  So no, you would not have gotten more relics if they were added to starchart missions.  And to actually get the same number of rolls as a four stage bounty you would've had to do 15 waves of defense (and technically you would have to drop at wave ten and do another five wave run because of the rotation).

Bro you've missed the point I'm only going to say this and leave you be to be a bigger person. I respect that you disagree with my opinion from your perspective you might even find this to be fair but this post wasn't made for your opinion. It was an attempt to have DE relock these percentages to change them. If you disagree cool! But I ask humbly and kindly that you leave this post be and create your own were you express to DE why you believe it's "fair" in idea and in practice. 

 

Best of luck man/woman

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

On 2/18/2018 at 7:29 PM, Aggh said:

After playing this game for five years I can tell you that this grind for a specific relic really isn't any worse than grinding for any other specific relic.  The only difference is you don't get a bunch of relics you weren't looking for in between.

It took me 3hrs to grind out 4/5(b/c rote) and even less for the meso and liths mirage axi and neo relics on release date and it been consitant with unvaultings and other prime releases prio. This is a completely diferent beast and I'm someone with maxed gear able to complete bounties about as fast as possible(thank you razorwing blitz) however I still disagree with the drop percentages wholeheartedly and have others in pubs that agree. They hit the drop chances too hard especially for something as trivial as relics and people should speak up. If you disagree cool but plz make a different post to DE on why you disagree plz and thank you.