why not universal vacuum

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 4 heures, Ragnarok160 a dit :

 A lot of what your saying is varyies, yea i have 200k alloy  but that doesnt mean i dont want more, warframe is a collectathon in most cases and energy and health drops are also important ourside of resources, i hate when im being shot at by 30 enemies and i have to stop to try and dash to a pickup, the majority of people here want it to be a thing and all the counter arguements arnt vaild because it doesnt count the community as a majority which want it. In a nut shell it wont hurt the game any to have it and we art " demanding" anything but the playerbase is a crucial part of letting DE know what they want, its up to them weather or not they will do it and no one is going to quit the game over it

First, 200k Alloy is nothing and it's still enough to craft everything requiring it. Most ressources that are hard to get either have a green highlight, a circular crate look when on the ground or are earned as the mission goes/ends (Kuva, Cryotic, Void Traces, etc.). For mods, they're already big enough for you to see them, even more if you are using a loot radar of some sort.

Second, what would be the challenge if you always have the required energy to get rid of those 30 enemies? Why move when you can get everything you need without moving? How is that interesting at all when playing a game focused on movement, including parkour? Players keep complaining that there is no end-game when they just cheese everything DE adds to the game, but they need energy to be able to cheese, so they use a cheesy method to get the loot. Why would somebody stop spamming spin attacks, Peacekeeper, Spore, etc. if they never run out because they don't need to get the loot by themselves? Vacuum is (part of) what makes players lazy on Warframe.

Oh, but whatever. Since my counter arguments are all invalid, I should just go play another game, as you seem to say that I'm not part of the community because I don't think the same way as a "majority" that I've never heard about in 3 years on WF. Even if it's not "valid", I want to tell you that saying things like "a majority thinks this" is not an argument either. There is a name in french for that, among other types of false statements, but I guess it doesn't matter. 

 

There is one thing that is true, at least, in what I have to say: Your sentences hurt my eyes. Have you ever heard of syntax? Grammar? Punctuation? I hope the rest of the "majority" take more time to clarify their thoughts when they post something than you do. It's painful to guess what you are trying to say once every 4 words.

[Ragnarok160]

32 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

First, 200k Alloy is nothing and it's still enough to craft everything requiring it. Most ressources that are hard to get either have a green highlight, a circular crate look when on the ground or are earned as the mission goes/ends (Kuva, Cryotic, Void Traces, etc.). For mods, they're already big enough for you to see them, even more if you are using a loot radar of some sort.

Second, what would be the challenge if you always have the required energy to get rid of those 30 enemies? Why move when you can get everything you need without moving? How is that interesting at all when playing a game focused on movement, including parkour? Players keep complaining that there is no end-game when they just cheese everything DE adds to the game, but they need energy to be able to cheese, so they use a cheesy method to get the loot. Why would somebody stop spamming spin attacks, Peacekeeper, Spore, etc. if they never run out because they don't need to get the loot by themselves? Vacuum is (part of) what makes players lazy on Warframe.

Oh, but whatever. Since my counter arguments are all invalid, I should just go play another game, as you seem to say that I'm not part of the community because I don't think the same way as a "majority" that I've never heard about in 3 years on WF. Even if it's not "valid", I want to tell you that saying things like "a majority thinks this" is not an argument either. There is a name in french for that, among other types of false statements, but I guess it doesn't matter. 

 

There is one thing that is true, at least, in what I have to say: Your sentences hurt my eyes. Have you ever heard of syntax? Grammar? Punctuation? I hope the rest of the "majority" take more time to clarify their thoughts when they post something than you do. It's painful to guess what you are trying to say once every 4 words.

U just proved my point, having universal vaccum doesnt break the movement system but not having it slows down the pacing in a game hailed for its speed and freedom of movement. Also keep your passive agressive posts on a leash or ill report you for derailing.

Also when it comes to the majority the minority is still relevent, it isnt about stamping out lesser people, your opinion is still valid however whenever someone asks for change there are going to be people opposed to it which is fine and typically people who have a problem with something are far more likely to voice there concern. Iys not like this post is going to force a response from DE or change your purest ideaology of the game and by no means do i think you should play a different game, this is all our game and everyone wants to think they know whats best for it.

Also play atlas for an hour and tell me picking up rubble isnt a pain in the arse

Edited March 2, 2018 by Ragnarok160

[NightBlitz]

14 minutes ago, Ragnarok160 said:

Also play atlas for an hour and tell me picking up rubble isnt a pain in the arse

for me, it isnt, and i play atlas somewhat regularly. however...im also one of the few that almost never uses vacuum because i prefer my kavat. i also dont need all those extra common resources and can keep track of most of whats on the screen and thus be able to pick out what i want from the drops, allowing me to keep up with the rest of the team.

honestly tho...i've only seen one legit reason to have universal vacuum and thats the issue where things are stuck just far enough away you cant get them otherwise. if DE were to fix that, there'd be no reason for u-vac to even ever be considered

[_junguler]

again with people calling other people who have a different taste and opinion lazy, we should be past that bs by now. we can agree to disagree but don't insult others and belittle them over something they know for a fact they want.

[EvilDarknessAlien]

Why not universal "when baro?"

[rune_me]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Making vacuum universal is practically just dumbing the game down.

Yeah because picking things up from the ground requires such intelligence and skills. Like, the sheer level of hand-eye coordination needed to steer your warframe over an energy orb. No wonder only the veteran players has figured out how to pick up ammo. 

The ability to pick things up are what really seperates the noobs from experienced players in this game. And I think we can all agree that it is by far the most exciting gameplay mechanic in Warframe. Running around in circles, picking things up, then bragging about how good we are at picking said things up, are the reason most of us play the game in the first place. Please don't remove this extremely fun, incredibly challenging aspect of the game by adding universal vacuum.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, rune_me said:

Yeah because picking things up from the ground requires such intelligence and skills. Like, the sheer level of hand-eye coordination needed to steer your warframe over an energy orb. No wonder only the veteran players has figured out how to pick up ammo. 

The ability to pick things up are what really seperates the noobs from experienced players in this game. And I think we can all agree that it is by far the most exciting gameplay mechanic in Warframe. Running around in circles, picking things up, then bragging about how good we are at picking said things up, are the reason most of us play the game in the first place. Please don't remove this extremely fun, incredibly challenging aspect of the game by adding universal vacuum.

What are you going on about? 

I said it's dumbing the game down by removing the aspect of choice. I never said it takes skill to grab loot.  In fact it takes little skill and effort to do so. The argument that you need to run in circles and hunt and peck for loot is nonsense.  

It's a choice between extra loot or pet utility. I and many others choose utility. You and other players choose vacuum. It's a choice that has a bit of weight. Simple as that. No side has a clear advantage. I'm not going to lag far behind you in a mission collecting loot and I can craft any new item as fast as anyone else. You can satisfy your OCD to collect everything that drops. Both styles are valid... And it's a choice.

You just went on a ridiculous rant for no reason. It's not even relevant to my post

Edited March 2, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What are you going on about? 

I said it's dumbing the game down by removing the aspect of choice. I never said it takes skill to grab loot.  In fact it takes little skill and effort to do so. The argument that you need to run in circles and hunt and peck for loot is nonsense.

It's a choice between extra loot or pet utility. I and many others choose utility. You and other players choose vacuum. It's a choice that has a bit it weight.

You just went on a ridiculous rant for no reason. It's not even relevant to my post

My point was just that it is not a fun part of the game, so I don't see it as such a bad thing to remove it or simplify it. I certainly wouldn't consider it dumbing the game down at all.

I don't think the choice has much weight at all. It's not like I miss the pet utility when I don't bring a pet. And when I do, I can make do without vacuum just fine. Having or not having vacuum is certainly not what I base my choice of companion on. If I need to farm void traces, I bring a Smeeta. If I'm using a ammo hungry weapon, I bring a carrier. Tbh I never use anything else but those two. But I don't feel the choice has any weight at all.

[TheKurtiStryke]

why not universal vacuum? well..because...emm.."yelling at the  rear" can someone give me a good reason for not introducing universal 13m vacuum in the game?....nothing.. oh, right, ther's not a good reason for not implement universal 13M vacuum in teh game.

[QueenKharn]

On 2/19/2018 at 10:44 PM, Akram-The-Reaper-Panda said:

I never said that's the only thing going for them. I said that without it, their usefulness is way lower than pets. And i backed it up. Want some final proof? Here you go.

When carrier was the only sentinel with vaccuum, carrier and carrier prime was used 78% of the time. Now give Vaccum to pets who have higher usefulness and tell me what'll happen.

---------------

Now keep your face palms to yourself and stop embaressing yourself.

On that same stream they also mentioned that eclipsing all sentinel use was the fact that a majority of players actually used no sentinel or companion at all.

It's why they put Taxon into the game, to introduce people to the mechanic. I'd like to see an update on usage in chart form, but just remember that when looking at this chart, if NONE had been included as a pink option, over 3/4 of that chart would be pink.

Edited March 3, 2018 by KokoroWish

[SilentMobius]

5 hours ago, True_Naeblis said:

Last I checked I still have to move around the map to gather the loot I've unearthed.

This is the thing, with sentinel-range-vacuum people don't need to think about collecting loot. Literally the complaints are that people don't want to have to think about it (and maneuver) they label it with terms like "boring", "slowing the game down", "tedium" which could be applied to any of the mechanics depending on your personal opinion, so DE gave them the option to sacrifice something to mitigate the stuff they don't like for a price.

And still they want it cost free.

Physical loot is a mechanic, it requires engagement by choice or by movement, one of the two. Universal vacuum will never be the right solution, because if DE ever becomes ok with players mitigating all loot engagement (don't bet on it) the solution is to remove physical loot, not to gift everyone an ability to sidestep the mechanic cost free.

Physical loot doesn't need to exist if everyone is given the tools to acquire loot without engagement.

 

But who am I, just a ~20 year software dev who happens to agree with the people making the game.I'm happy with the company I'm keeping on this topic.

Edited March 3, 2018 by SilentMobius

[SilentMobius]

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't think it invalidates a core mechanic because many players use vacuum anyway.

That mechanic includes the option to choose to sacrifice companion choice and a mod slot to mitigate the maneuver part of the mechanic.

Players using vacuum are still engaging in the core mechanic, its the same as a choice between an elemental mod and a crit mod.

Universal vacuum is like making maiming strike inherent because the majority of players with it use it, it terrible design.

[Hypernaut1]

47 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

That mechanic includes the option to choose to sacrifice companion choice and a mod slot to mitigate the maneuver part of the mechanic.

Players using vacuum are still engaging in the core mechanic, its the same as a choice between an elemental mod and a crit mod.

Universal vacuum is like making maiming strike inherent because the majority of players with it use it, it terrible design.

"Most people use it" is not a good argument at all.

I once thought that redirection/vitality was a mandatory mod, until one day I just stopped using it... And realised that it wasn't. 

There is value in choice in a game like this. If DE we're to add universal vacuum, it wouldn't effect me negatively, but I understand why there isn't UV and I don't think it's needed. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[rune_me]

Maybe there should be a middle way.

See, I can accept that certain things are a part of the gameplay mechanics, like energy/health orbs. They directly affect the gameplay in the current mission. What doesn't affect the gameplay at all, while in a mission, are the resource drops. And honestly that's the part I find tedious: running around collecting credits and polymer bundles, stopping in the middle of my parkour killing spree to mark an orokin cell for other players (universal vacuum would not sort this, though) and so on.

Perhaps they should just auto collect resources for you and then hand them to you at the end of the mission like other rewards, and then leave the ammo and orbs in the game as they are now. That way, you'd still have to run for the energy orbs if your low on energy, you'd still have to pick up health orbs if your running that conversion mod, etc. But you don't have to break your flow to get something that has no effect on said flow.

Diablo 3 requires you to pick up anything that takes up space in your inventory, but auto collects gold for you. Borderlands 2 has auto pickup for ammo and money. And so on.

[True_Naeblis]

I do wish whoever did the Prime Accessories presentation would do one for this. The threads always devolve into the people against it going on about how much better they are at the game than those who want vacuum. That, along with using hyperbole that we want something that will clear the whole map without effort, not something that synergize with all the movement this game requires. Time and time again the people who want it say it's as simple as having a toggle, and time and time again the people against it act like that would somehow destroy their experience. Maybe we just need a vacuum and non-vacuum server, so the super leets don't have to play with the plebs who want to be able to run whatever companion they like, or none at all, and toggle vacuum on and off as they like.

It's sad that people put so much energy into insulting other players and trying to belittle their skills and ability because they want the option for QoL fixes that affect no one but themselves to have them active or not.

[robbybe01234]

12 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

This is the thing, with sentinel-range-vacuum people don't need to think about collecting loot. Literally the complaints are that people don't want to have to think about it (and maneuver) they label it with terms like "boring", "slowing the game down", "tedium" which could be applied to any of the mechanics depending on your personal opinion, so DE gave them the option to sacrifice something to mitigate the stuff they don't like for a price.

And still they want it cost free.

Physical loot is a mechanic, it requires engagement by choice or by movement, one of the two. Universal vacuum will never be the right solution, because if DE ever becomes ok with players mitigating all loot engagement (don't bet on it) the solution is to remove physical loot, not to gift everyone an ability to sidestep the mechanic cost free.

Physical loot doesn't need to exist if everyone is given the tools to acquire loot without engagement.

 

But who am I, just a ~20 year software dev who happens to agree with the people making the game.I'm happy with the company I'm keeping on this topic.

See this post? This is a fine bookend.

The moment you remove a vacuum ability from load out consideration, you may as well just remove items dropping entirely. 

If this isn't a good enough reason then you weren't looking for one because your mind is made up.