why not universal vacuum

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Hang on I thought Vacuum wasn't necessary for all that? People have claimed they can farm just fine without it. Mixed messages. Also, new players farming resources a little easier is a bad thing?

This is hilarious. Apparently Vacuum equals less money for DE.

There is that elitism again. "You can't hover it up. Pick it up you casual"

Everyone here is acting like Vacuum is not worth looking at and then in the next line they say stuff like this. 

Dude, 
1. It isn't -necessary, no.  It does make it -quicker- though.  Noone denied that, ever.  In fact..that is part of the counter-argument.
2. Read my other post.
3. It's not elitism. I'm no elite.  I use vacuum on my Helios ALL THE DAMN TIME.   I just think it should stay on Sentienls.  Warframes don't have any business having more of a vacuum than they already have (and they do have one), Mag can do it if you really want to, Chesa Kubrow can too, tbh, and anything more is overkill.  

Noone said Vacuum isn't worth using.  We said it shouldn't be a mod for a Warframe, least of all a secondary passive.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

Just now, Akram-The-Reaper-Panda said:

 

I told you he'll twist your words and run in loops. You said that DE, not even you, but DE want to work for it, and he twist it into "elitism and calling people casual". 

 

lol I know.  Let his own replies work against him, then.  In the long run, there isn't anything I'm saying that is illegal or blatantly "wrong", save for an opinion he may or may not agree with.  No falsehoods here, however. So let him twist the truth.  I honestly don't care what fantasy he writes for himself.  

Diluting games to make them easier and easier, requiring less steps and less investment and less time....until the point at which this is basically Space Ninja Candy Crush being run with macros....isn't doing anyone any favors and will only serve to kill the lifespan of the game on several fronts.

In a hallway shooter, there is no reason you should be missing out on any resources as is.  MUCH less an issue if you're melee killing, up close!  With that in mind, only thing that is "difficult to collect" is across the map, in which case someone else earned that drop, not you.  If you want it, go get it.  That's not "unfair" ... that's called "work and reward".

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, Akram-The-Reaper-Panda said:

You said that DE, not even you, but DE want to work for it

They never said that. He simply pulled that from his own head. Go ahead, provide a link and prove me wrong. I don't twist peoples words, I point out the overall message.

Also don't you apparently have some very important time to not waste?

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

It isn't -necessary, no.

So does that mean DE are earning less money now then? Should they make resources harder to grab? After all, they're clearly being starved of finances.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I just think it should stay on Sentienls.

Why? What tangible, real harm could it do to you to have an optional warframe vacuum? What tangible harm could it do to DE? Please provide physical evidence that backs up these claims of yours.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

No falsehoods here, however.

Apart from your entire argument and refusal to post a link to your supposed poll.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

They never said that. He simply pulled that from his own head. Go ahead, provide a link and prove me wrong. I don't twist peoples words, I point out the overall message.

“You can play through the entirety of Warframe and not spend a single penny. Or, if you don’t have the time to earn items, and if you think we are worth supporting, you can throw us a few bucks for our hard work. Either way, we have created a very fair model for a range of players that’s both balanced and generous.” - VP of Publishing for DE, Meridith Braun, in an interview with PCGamesInsider.biz on November 17th, 2017 .... just last year.

Her statement clearly shows that, though they are free-to-play, their monetization essentially is encouraged via scarcity, be it time or resources (often both, of course).  Lessen scarcity of either, by saving time AND collecting MORE resources with easier and larger ranged UV, and you diminish their income.  That's math, not opinion.

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Taishin_Ishu
URL correction

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Lessen scarcity of either, by saving time AND collecting MORE resources with easier and larger ranged UV, and you diminish their income.  That's math, not opinion.

You really do believe every word you're saying don't you. Players who claim they can collect more resources without vacuum are on this very thread. So by your logic, DE are loosing out without a univac anyway. That statement did not include any backing of your supposed claim that collecting resources one second faster equals less money for DE than they are apparently loosing out on now.

You are just talking a load of rubbish. Post your math and your physical evidence that DE would earning less money. Numbers. Not statements that you can freely shape to fit your narrative.

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

Prove to me it isn't.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Prove to me it isn't.

Sorry friend, that's a fallacy.

You made the claim that DE would earn less income if univac was a thing. You need to prove it.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

I've already done so with basic examples, you just refuse to listen.  It's like trying to explain to a flat-earther how we live on a globe.  Can't teach a closed mind.

[Zeclem]

22 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Yes you are. Very flimsy excuses. You are trying to justify a pet-only vacuum and I'm simply asking why, which is not an excuse. There is a demographic out there that doesn't use pets. I personally like using them. Others don't. 

i dont like to use pets but i have several builds that would go great with adarzas buff. lets put adarzas buff to every warframe as passive then. cus i want it. and why do i even need guns and gunblades to shoot at all? i want to shoot stuff from my zaw! 

this is exactly how you sound here. if you dont wanna run with pets/sentinels, then you simply dont deserve the advantages they provide. same with everything else. 

[Isca]

So one of the anti-vacuum arguments here is that DE will not implement vacuum on all pets because they intend us to play the game a certain way, i.e. slowly and deliberately with all players making sure they stay with the group. Setting aside the fact that this is a million miles away from the user experience in the majority of missions, if DE are philosophically opposed to vacuum themselves, why didn't they just remove vacuum from Carrier instead of extending it to all sentinels? If vacuum hurts them in the pocket, why did they extend it to all sentinels?

I love cats in real life and find kavats charming, but the lack of vacuum on them combined with their terrible AI makes them a burden. I always know when someone's brought a pet to a PUG because I get notified that 'UR MOM is down' every minute or so. Sure, pets CAN be tanks if potatoed, formaed and properly built, but again, the general in-game experience is that they are a squishy, frustrating burden a lot of the time.

As far as 'nobody will use sentinels if pets get vacuum' goes, people said that about Carrier too, yet I still see more Carriers than anything else, because people also enjoy the ammo boost. If pets got vacuum, I'd definitely still use Carrier a lot as it's got great utility when you're using a bullet hose, or Ignis, or Lenz etc.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Isca
Autocowreck disasters fixed ('eyepatch??')

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

i dont like to use pets but i have several builds that would go great with adarzas buff. lets put adarzas buff to every warframe as passive then. cus i want it. and why do i even need guns and gunblades to shoot at all? i want to shoot stuff from my zaw! 

this is exactly how you sound here. if you dont wanna run with pets/sentinels, then you simply dont deserve the advantages they provide. same with everything else. 

I never asked for straight up pet buffs to be applied to warframes. Vacuum is a tool. Not a stat boost. This is the exact kind of extremest of the extreme post I was expecting to turn up sooner or later. 

Also, this "you don't deserve it" mentality is toxic. The only thing I would say that sort of thinking rings true is when people say they deserve Excal Prime, when they obviously don't. Making a Zaw a blade/gun in the same package is unreasonable as that would be overpowered. Asking for a tool that helps you gather resources, is not overpowered nor is it unreasonable. Again, no one has provided a realistic answer to why univac would be bad for the game overall. Only vague assumptions and preposterous claims of damage mixed in with a bunch of fallacies.

If anyone here seriously provides an actual good reason, backed up by clear physical evidence directly relating to the subject, that univac would be detrimental to the overall game and it's future, I will apologise and admit that I am wrong.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

6 minutes ago, Isca said:

So one of the anti-vacuum arguments here is that DE will not implement vacuum on all pets because they intend us to play the game a certain way, i.e. slowly and deliberately with all players making sure they stay with the group. Setting aside the fact that this is a million miles away from the user experience in the majority of missions, if DE are philosophically opposed to vacuum themselves, why didn't they just remove vacuum from Carrier instead of extending it to all sentinels? If vacuum hurts them in the pocket, why did they extend it to all sentinels?

I love cats in real life and find kavats charming, but the lack of vacuum on them combined eyepatch oth their terrible AI makes them a burden. I always know when someone's brought a pet to a PUG because I get notified that 'UR MOM is down' every minute or so. Sure, pets CAN be tanks if potatoes, formaed and properly built, but again, the general in-game experience is that they are a squishy, frustrating burden a lot of the time.

As far as 'nobody will use sentinels if pets get vacuum' goes, people said that about Carrier too, yet I still see more Carriers than anything else, because people also enjoy the ammo boost. If pets got vacuum, I'd definitely still use Carrier a lot as it's got great utility when you're using a bullet hose, or Ignis, or Lenz etc.

Another shining light in a dark depressing sea. +1

[Zeclem]

Just now, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I never asked for straight up pet buffs to be applied to warframes. Vacuum is a tool. Not a stat boost. This is the exact kind of extremest of the extreme post I was expecting to turn up sooner or later. 

Also, this "you don't deserve it" mentality is toxic. The only thing I would say that sort of thinking rings true is when people say they deserve Excal Prime, when they obviously don't. Making a Zaw a blade/gun in the same package is unreasonable as that would be overpowered. Asking for a tool that helps you gather resources, is not overpowered nor is it unreasonable. Again, no one has provided a realistic answer to why univac would be bad for the game overall. Only vague assumptions and preposterous claims of damage mixed in with a bunch of fallacies.

If anyone here seriously provides an actual good reason, backed up by clear physical evidence directly relating to the subject, that univac would be detrimental to the overall game and it's future, I will apologise and admit that I am wrong.

vacuum is a stat boost that increases your pickup radius by a number, just like nearly everything else in the game. its not extremist post either, since i DO want UV. its just your reasoning there makes zero sense. but yeah dude, just keep on being assumptions. it surely helps your argument. 

 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I've already done so with basic examples, you just refuse to listen.

Basic examples of what? Your own interpretations and claims that DE will somehow loose income with a univac? Sorry, those are not examples. You proved yet again that you have no idea what you are doing with that Burden of Proof fallacy.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

4 minutes ago, Isca said:

So one of the anti-vacuum arguments here is that DE will not implement vacuum on all pets because they intend us to play the game a certain way, i.e. slowly and deliberately with all players making sure they stay with the group. Setting aside the fact that this is a million miles away from the user experience in the majority of missions, if DE are philosophically opposed to vacuum themselves, why didn't they just remove vacuum from Carrier instead of extending it to all sentinels? If vacuum hurts them in the pocket, why did they extend it to all sentinels?

I love cats in real life and find kavats charming, but the lack of vacuum on them combined eyepatch oth their terrible AI makes them a burden. I always know when someone's brought a pet to a PUG because I get notified that 'UR MOM is down' every minute or so. Sure, pets CAN be tanks if potatoes, formaed and properly built, but again, the general in-game experience is that they are a squishy, frustrating burden a lot of the time.

As far as 'nobody will use sentinels if pets get vacuum' goes, people said that about Carrier too, yet I still see more Carriers than anything else, because people also enjoy the ammo boost. If pets got vacuum, I'd definitely still use Carrier a lot as it's got great utility when you're using a bullet hose, or Ignis, or Lenz etc.

I appreciate your civil response and very good points!  It's nice to have a conversation that isn't just "No, you!" back and forth.

I don't think DE hates Vacuum.  The two things I was specifically saying that about were Extended Range on Vacuum, to the point where you're basically just collecting the map's worth of resources with little to no effort, and the Warframe-inate vacuum being extended via a new mod for WFs or a 2nd Passive, because then there are fewer choices/sacrifices to make when choosing loadouts, making the game that much "easier" with the "ideal" build becoming simpler and simpler to attain.  Personally, I find the challenge of mix n match wonderful!  It keeps me on my toes, and provides a constant change of pace!  I would've been fine had the new Damage changes rolled out too, so that Slash wouldn't be a the win-all damage type it currently is in the meta.

I feel the same about loadouts for pets/sentinels.  What makes one pet unique is what makes it worth choosing.  The fact that they made ONE of Carrier's specialties universal amongst other Sentinels DID diminish it's uniqueness, and thus its usefulness. This IS supported by numbers.  It did not become irrelevant, as you yourself pointed out, due to its ammo mods, but it did become half as unique.  I don't use it, for example, because with Vacuum on Helios, I can scan AND loot.

I'd even argue giving Helios the scanning makes having scanners in Gear at all almost moot, and that if it weren't a requirement for Helios to scan at all, noone would even buy them.  Imagine the gameplay we could still have if hunting and silently scanning/stalking our targets were still a thing, instead of passive due to Helios.

At least we NEED Helios to do it in that manner.  Now put that on a frame PASSIVELY and, well....no need for Helios.


Regardless, I digress...in a hallway shooter, I don't see the need to really change up vacuum.  If the pets ARE as squishy as one claims, why do we want them to have vacuums, too?  If we're arguing about ideal loadouts and all.  I'm seriously asking ,btw, not trying to be mean.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, Zeclem said:

vacuum is a stat boost that increases your pickup radius by a number

Does it make enemies easier to kill? Does it strip their armour? Does it slow their movement speed? Does it remove their weapons? Does it increase your power strength? Does it increase your armour? Does it increase your damage?

I like how everyone is changing their tune over time. Look back at the first page and you'll see people claiming Vacuum doesn't matter. Now look where we are.

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

its not extremist post either

Suggesting that because I want UV, I also want everything else. No. My reasoning is that Vacuum would cause no harm to anything if it was made universal.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I never asked for straight up pet buffs to be applied to warframes. Vacuum is a tool. Not a stat boost. This is the exact kind of extremest of the extreme post I was expecting to turn up sooner or later. 

It is a tool...with stats.  Pickup Range + x.  That is a stat boost.  Without it, your range is diminished.   Kinda like Stretch mod, but for your "inate vacuum".  

[Isca]

One last point that hasn't been raised yet. I personally don't support universal vacuum as something innate to frames and with no cost. I want the option to use the precept on pets, that's all. I think this is a fair tradeoff, as with all QOL mods/precepts. Want more enemy radar? Sacrifice a slot. Want vacuum? Sacrifice a slot. It is a fair tradeoff this way, and doesn't force anyone into a particular playstyle.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

\If anyone here seriously provides an actual good reason, backed up by clear physical evidence directly relating to the subject, that univac would be detrimental to the overall game and it's future, I will apologise and admit that I am wrong.

Your "apology" means about as much to me as getting another nano spore.  It isn't what I'm after here.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Does it make enemies easier to kill? Does it strip their armour? Does it slow their movement speed? Does it remove their weapons? Does it increase your power strength? Does it increase your armour? Does it increase your damage?

I like how everyone is changing their tune over time. Look back at the first page and you'll see people claiming Vacuum doesn't matter. Now look where we are.

Suggesting that because I want UV, I also want everything else. No. My reasoning is that Vacuum would cause no harm to anything if it was made universal.

Damage isn't the only stat in this game.  Combat isn't the only factor.

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Does it make enemies easier to kill? Does it strip their armour? Does it slow their movement speed? Does it remove their weapons? Does it increase your power strength? Does it increase your armour? Does it increase your damage?

are we really going to argue semantics here? it flat out makes you more efficient at killing since you wont have to walk around gathering loot and orbs, and thats all the stat boost definition you need.

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I like how everyone is changing their tune over time. Look back at the first page and you'll see people claiming Vacuum doesn't matter. Now look where we are.

maybe how every different person actually had a different ideas from the start and this argument isnt all black and white like you seemingly think?

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Suggesting that because I want UV, I also want everything else. No. My reasoning is that Vacuum would cause no harm to anything if it was made universal.

it was not a suggestion that you wanted everything cus you want UV(cus, you know, i also do want UV so suggesting that would hurt my own argument so why the hell would i do that?), it was a sarcastic poke at your dumb reasoning of "i want this so it should be implemented" without giving any facts to your argument. its nothing short of cancerous especially when combined with your mentality of "if you criticise me youre on the other side" with a lethal dose of assumptionism.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

It's nice to have a conversation that isn't just "No, you!" back and forth.

Don't forget you opened with "Don't be a @&&££$£". Acting like you tried to be civil is a lost cause.

1 minute ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I don't think DE hates Vacuum.

According to you they loose money over it. So why would they not hate Vacuum?

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

so that Slash wouldn't be a the win-all damage type it currently is in the meta.

Slash would still have been the meta, as those changes were ridiculous. Impact would send enemies flying. Puncture would reduce damage of one enemy. Whoop de do. That is why they were recalled.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I don't use it, for example, because with Vacuum on Helios, I can scan AND loot.

And do you not feel like that change was better? Before you were shoehorned into one choice, but now your Helios is extra helpful.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

It is a tool...with stats.

Stats meaning actual affects to your survival, enemies, weapons. 

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Your "apology" means about as much to me as getting another nano spore.  It isn't what I'm after here.

Could have fooled me. What with all your posts trying so desperately to prove how I'm wrong and mysterious polls which you still haven't provided a link too because reasons.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Damage isn't the only stat in this game.  Combat isn't the only factor.

Never said it was. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

3 minutes ago, Isca said:

One last point that hasn't been raised yet. I personally don't support universal vacuum as something innate to frames and with no cost. I want the option to use the precept on pets, that's all. I think this is a fair tradeoff, as with all QOL mods/precepts. Want more enemy radar? Sacrifice a slot. Want vacuum? Sacrifice a slot. It is a fair tradeoff this way, and doesn't force anyone into a particular playstyle.

I somewhat agree here.  They'd basically be doing to Chesa what they did to Carrier, though I'm not sure Chesa would survive as it hasn't got as much going for it as the sentinel. That being said, all I'm honestly trying to say, and somehow being painted a villain for doing so, is exactly what you said: It should not be free, passive, or whatever.  Advantages need disadvantages to balance them out.  Adding vacuum to pets should require a slot. Yes.  Big part of the reason I don't agree with it being added on to Warframes directly, because there is less sacrifice when you can have a Warframe + Vacuum + best DPS/CC Pet etc....Where is the sacrifice?  

Again, Isca, I appreciate the civil discussion, I honestly do. Thank you.

[Lemon]

@Taishin_Ishu

You play on console, you move about as fast as a turtle. Of course you don't think you need universal vacuum, i think console players shouldn't have a say in this matter. Univac is necessary more than ever especially after adding open world areas and consistently making map tiles larger.