[Community Feedback] Part 2: 19/2/2018

[Arcturus125]

---Disclaimer---

This is a list of all the things people like and hate about the game. this is not just my opinion. i have spent 4 months gathering other peoples opinions and added to them to this list. In no way is this list short... again, it took me almost 4 months to gather and write down all these ideas, so I should hope you will spend more than 10 minutes reading it. if you are going to just speed-read through all this, don't bother; I will leave a TL:DR section at the bottom (as I do with all my posts in this 'Community feedback' series) for all people who do not have time to read the monstrosity ahead. 

introduction

decided to make this into a series of threads that i post every couple months. if you haven't already read [Community Feedback] Part 1: 26/11/17 i suggest reading through that before continuing reading.

please do note that these are not just my ideas, i have been gathering peoples ideas and opinions since the last Community feedback post i did in order to provide adequate feedback for the devs to improve the game further.

with that and the disclaimer out of the way, let's begin with the follow-up to my last post:

Follow-up

in my last post, i mentioned that the game was balanced, but needed work. there were some weapons that were not good enough to be considered "worth it". As an example i compared the Tigris and the Tiberon. Now, only two months later, i can say that DE listened! the Tigris is no longer too op for it's mastery requirement since it is now MR7 and not MR4. also on top of this, the Tiberon (and so many other weapons) got a buff that made it worthwhile to grind to get the more difficult to craft weapons now

i had a subtitle named "make MR mean something" and DE did that. they made it so that the more powerful weapons have a higher MR requirement (the way it should be). this gives the incentive to get your mastery higher since the higher requirement weapons are quoted to do more damage.

damage falloff calculations were broken during the last Community Feedback post, and i brought that up: previously, a shotgun (meant for close range) could out-damage a sniper (meant for long range) at a long rage. i  am now happy to say that this is no longer the case. shotguns do little damage at long range whereas accurate weapons such as snipers will not suffer from damage falloff so quickly - snipers now out-damage shotguns at long range (the way it should be)

i would like to take a moment to thank DE for making these changes and listening to the community. there are for too many people on these very forums that complain about changes and not enough people thanking DE for the good changes that they do make. from me, and all the people in my streams and discord... thank you DE, keep up the good work!

 

The list of changes the community wants:

before i start this list, i would like to jut say that i am not trying to point out all the bad points of the game, i am not trying to make the game seem bad. i am not complaining to DE and saying they need to change the game, i am not saying i can do better than them. i am trying to provide adequate feedback by sharing  what i and all the people that i have asked would like from this game. this is DE's game, they can do with it what they want, now with all that said, let's begin the list of changes that people want:

levelling cap?

i'm going to start this my asking you, what comes after level 30? to some the answer will be focus. and while some people love focus and depend on it to kill eidolons faster, others look down on it and see it as an excuse for more story and exposition. I'll admit that i am fairly on-the-fence with this one. to quote one of the people i asked "What is past level 30? No DE focus is not the answer!" though i think that may come across as quite aggressive, he has a point. Once a weapon has been levelled, and forma'd as many times at the user likes, that weapon is "done" or "cant get any better". I think players should have a way to improve their weapons that doesn't require them to re-level the weapon or sacrifice their mod loadout. this way if a player really likes a certain weapon, they always have something they can do to improve it, even if it is only a marginal improvement.

make the void great again

the void used to be the end game, and there are a lot of players that want to see if return to that. it should be levels 40-60 on all the nodes of the void. and every node should be a void fissure (they are called VOID fissures and yet they are so rarely available in the void?). on top of that, in order to return the void to it's former glory without scrapping the new concept, on every rotation of the void mission rewards, it should drop a relic that is the same type of the fissure you get in that mission. that way you can stay in the void for hours farming prime parts non stop like you used to be able to (because you can use the new relics that drop every rotation)

remember, people want a place to farm for prime parts endlessly without having to wait for such a fissure, so give them what they want, just don't make it too easy for them

armor scaling is just to damn high

armor scales way too fast during the lifetime of a mission. if you choose to stay in a survival mission for a while, you'll notice that enemy armor scaled from 100 to 100000 way to fast (those numbers are just there to explain the point, and probably really not that accurate). on top of that, when enemies start to get tougher, they also appear in greater numbers which means you can't fight tougher enemies without being swarmed by them, one possible fix to this would be to make armor a static value for each type of enemy (heavy gunner, bombard, etc) and then instead make health scale with level. that way armor-removal mods are a nice addition, but no longer a requirement for late-game.

this, of course, is just my proposed way of fixing the armour scaling problem, if you guys think you have a better solution comment below and i'd be more than happy to hear you out

Forma system limits builds

think about it, you forma a frame/weapon to be able to fit more mods onto the build without going over capacity. seems great in theory, but now the player cant change their build without potentially running into compatibility issues with some of the mods' polarities in their new build. this means that putting forma on the weapon/warframe can limit the mos you can use, and therefore restricts the builds you can use. isn't the point of forma to allow the user to be more free with the mods they use, instead of limiting them. me and a couple friends of mine think that this can be avoided by instead applying forma to mods (and thus halfing their usage on capacity) instead of applying the forma to the frames and weapons

Bullet jump simulator 2018

while many people think that bullet jumps should be removed from the game, i think that they should instead be capped. the animation for bullet jumps is cool, and they are a good way to travel fast and far in the game. i do not like that they are almost a necessity. i (and many others) think that using only bullet jumps to travel somewhere is sucking from the fun of the game, and making positioning in the game meaningless. instead i propose that sprint speed on all frames be increased, and players be capped at only 1 bullet jump per 10 seconds. this way, bullet jumps can still be used in an "oh S#&$" moment to get away from a dangerous situation, but it cannot be used to exploit the enemies AI and their lack of ability to aim and shoot at a player during bullet jumps. if you don't get what i mean then let me explain: an enemy will struggle to hit you during (and momentarily after) a bullet jump. this if course is a good game mechanic (whether intentional or not) because it means it can be used to get out of a dangerous situation. but being able to move using entirely bullet jumps is essentially exploiting this and ruins the fun of the game for most people. if you make it so that a player can only bullet jump every x amount of seconds, they can choose to use their bullet jumps to increase their mobility, or to use them to get out of difficult situations, but not both.

insufficient rotation/mission rewards

getting only 80 endo for completing 20 minutes in a defense is just wrong, you should get more endo the longer you are in the mission (assuming it is an endless mission). and on top of that, getting only 10k credits from an alert is ridiculous, at least it should be between 50k and 100k for it to be worthwhile. this point is fairly simple, not mus more to say on this :)

removing mandatory mods

i'll keep this short since i could rant for hours about this:
give +damage and + multishot to weapons as they level up, the mods are too mandatory and are required to do any damage at all. keeping these as mods just means we have less room to customise weapons, and that was the point of modding wasn't it?
same does for +health and +shields on warframes as they level up. why do these need to be mods that take up 2 of our (very limited) 10 slots

mods should be a means to customize our weapons to our liking, not to make the more OP.

augment fixes

DE, please stop using augments to fix abilities. we only have 8 slots to mod our warfarmes, more often than not we cant afford to free up one of them slots just to get a change to an ability we should have gotten anyway.
i agree with the concept of augments, just not their application: an augments use should be to change the fundamental mechanics of an ability, should the user choose to equip it... not to fix potentially broken abilities.

balancing of a mods importance

over the two years i have played this game, i can only assume that hundreds and hundreds of mods have been released. and yet we have seen no rise in the amount of mods we can equip. over that same two year period, only about 30-40 of them mods have become "meta" and have found their way into people's builds. shouldn't all mods have equal importance over the limited amount of slots we have? why are some mods way better than others despite having the same drain on capacity? i think that most if not all the mods need to be looked at so that if i had 1 mod slot open, there would be no 'best' mod to equip - only the one that best suited me.

 

(as promised)TL:DR section:

Spoiler

1. why do weapons stop levelling at level 30. what is after level 30?
2. the void used to be great, why isn't it now?
3. enemy armor scales up with enemy level way too fast.
4. the current forma system limits the builds you can use
5. bullet jumps area drain on the gameplay - positioning is useless, playing tactically is more dangerous than spamming crouch and space
6. rotation rewards need to be improved and get better the longer you stay in missions
7. mandatory mods should not be a thing
8. augments shouldn't be used to fix abilities
9. each mod should be equally as good as the next

--conclusion--

warframe is a great game, the combustibility in this game is second to none. and on top of that the devs actually listen - the fact that i can post this list to the devs shows a lot about them, they are willing make changes just for us, and honestly, us players don't appreciate that enough.

in the interest in making this game better, i send this list to them, not as an excuse to rant.

thank you DE, for everything you have done for us

 

[Faulcun]

The opinions shared in your posts are very entitled and in some examples do not reflect reasonable questions or suggestions from people who consider things from a legitimate business perspective. As im sure these opinions are gathered from the common community itself, im not surprised to find that i disagree with most of it. While i agree that warframe has problems, I find that your posts are focused in the wrong areas as is the rest of the community the majority of the time.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

levelling cap?

i'm going to start this my asking you, what comes after level 30? to some the answer will be focus. and while some people love focus and depend on it to kill eidolons faster, others look down on it and see it as an excuse for more story and exposition. I'll admit that i am fairly on-the-fence with this one. to quote one of the people i asked "What is past level 30? No DE focus is not the answer!" though i think that may come across as quite aggressive, he has a point. Once a weapon has been levelled, and forma'd as many times at the user likes, that weapon is "done" or "cant get any better". I think players should have a way to improve their weapons that doesn't require them to re-level the weapon or sacrifice their mod loadout. this way if a player really likes a certain weapon, they always have something they can do to improve it, even if it is only a marginal improvement.

Power creep is already a huge problem in this game.... So much so, that everybody agrees that the scaling and balance in this game is so fubar, and yet here we are asking for more power beyond lvl 30. Unneeded power, mind you. What do you all think causes this massive unbalance to begin with?  As unbalanced as the following mods make the game already, the answer to your complaint already exists in riven mods. A player can farm kuva and roll their rivens as many times as they want for whatever marginal improvement they choose to accept.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

make the void great again

the void used to be the end game, and there are a lot of players that want to see if return to that. it should be levels 40-60 on all the nodes of the void. and every node should be a void fissure (they are called VOID fissures and yet they are so rarely available in the void?). on top of that, in order to return the void to it's former glory without scrapping the new concept, on every rotation of the void mission rewards, it should drop a relic that is the same type of the fissure you get in that mission. that way you can stay in the void for hours farming prime parts non stop like you used to be able to (because you can use the new relics that drop every rotation)

remember, people want a place to farm for prime parts endlessly without having to wait for such a fissure, so give them what they want, just don't make it too easy for them

The void was "end game" in the same manor as "fashion frame". The short answer is its not. This was the meme answer to the lack of actual end game. The focus should be on an actual end game after 5 years. As far as the rest of the void stuff, Im indifferent on this. The only thing I never understood is how when you are already in the void, why you have to wait for corrupted to be ..... corrupted again to pick up reactant. Theres a lot of things that dont make sense here.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

armor scaling is just to damn high

armor scales way too fast during the lifetime of a mission. if you choose to stay in a survival mission for a while, you'll notice that enemy armor scaled from 100 to 100000 way to fast (those numbers are just there to explain the point, and probably really not that accurate). on top of that, when enemies start to get tougher, they also appear in greater numbers which means you can't fight tougher enemies without being swarmed by them, one possible fix to this would be to make armor a static value for each type of enemy (heavy gunner, bombard, etc) and then instead make health scale with level. that way armor-removal mods are a nice addition, but no longer a requirement for late-game.

Yeah, enemy scaling needs to be reworked right along side the full damage system. At this point, you'll also need to establish what you consider to be late game, because as it stands now, any normal content on the solar map, including sorties, do not require armor-removal mods. This false narrative is what causes DE to make bad design decisions.  If people require armor removal mods for missions right now, including augmented armor sortie, then they are attempting to mitigate content that they clearly are not ready for. Making things easier is one thing, but to require it is over their heads. Aside from that, the majority of the playerbase does not see regular content above sortie level (max 100), and even then there is a large portion of the playerbase that does not play sorties anyways. In this regard, you cannot make suggestions to balance content levels that players dont normally see or experience above or beyond what is found on the solar map....  where 99% of game content exists.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

Forma system limits builds

think about it, you forma a frame/weapon to be able to fit more mods onto the build without going over capacity. seems great in theory, but now the player cant change their build without potentially running into compatibility issues with some of the mods' polarities in their new build. this means that putting forma on the weapon/warframe can limit the mos you can use, and therefore restricts the builds you can use. isn't the point of forma to allow the user to be more free with the mods they use, instead of limiting them. me and a couple friends of mine think that this can be avoided by instead applying forma to mods (and thus halfing their usage on capacity) instead of applying the forma to the frames and weapons

So build a second frame/weapon. You have unlimited slots. You can build 5 soma primes if you want to and build them all completely different. Forma isnt wasted and you can have your cake and eat it too. I would rather see DE allow us to label our builds than rework an entire system like that.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

Bullet jump simulator 2018

while many people think that bullet jumps should be removed from the game, i think that they should instead be capped. the animation for bullet jumps is cool, and they are a good way to travel fast and far in the game. i do not like that they are almost a necessity. i (and many others) think that using only bullet jumps to travel somewhere is sucking from the fun of the game, and making positioning in the game meaningless. instead i propose that sprint speed on all frames be increased, and players be capped at only 1 bullet jump per 10 seconds. this way, bullet jumps can still be used in an "oh S#&$" moment to get away from a dangerous situation, but it cannot be used to exploit the enemies AI and their lack of ability to aim and shoot at a player during bullet jumps. if you don't get what i mean then let me explain: an enemy will struggle to hit you during (and momentarily after) a bullet jump. this if course is a good game mechanic (whether intentional or not) because it means it can be used to get out of a dangerous situation. but being able to move using entirely bullet jumps is essentially exploiting this and ruins the fun of the game for most people. if you make it so that a player can only bullet jump every x amount of seconds, they can choose to use their bullet jumps to increase their mobility, or to use them to get out of difficult situations, but not both.

I really dont know how to respond to this. Let me start by saying, I agree that progress through a mission is useless because people are able to rush past 99% of the content simply to be done with the mission. There is no "unknown factor" of a mission that slows the group down forcing them to clear a room or address content at a slower pace. Friendly fire nightmare missions were the first time we had to slow down and think about what we were doing before just blindly spamming powers or simulor. But obviously the community wasnt ready for that.. and probably never will be, which is a shame.

Aside from that, this is a extremely fast paced combat horde space ninja shooter. The damage mitigation from doing space ninja stuff is 100% intentional as described by steve during the dev streams leading up to parkour 2.0 release. I personally think we need better mitigation as i find myself getting shot out of the air constantly as it is already at higher level. However, the moment you remove or limit bullet jumping, you'll immediately see posts about how volt is a required frame in all missions now, and ultimately you would have accomplished nothing. What you are asking to do would basically turn this into mass effect... which wouldnt be a terrible thing, but they are two completely different games now.... and i would encourage anybody to pick up mass effect and play that if thats the type of gameplay they are looking for.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

insufficient rotation/mission rewards

getting only 80 endo for completing 20 minutes in a defense is just wrong, you should get more endo the longer you are in the mission (assuming it is an endless mission). and on top of that, getting only 10k credits from an alert is ridiculous, at least it should be between 50k and 100k for it to be worthwhile. this point is fairly simple, not mus more to say on this :)

I agree with this. Rewards do not scale appropriately with increased mission difficulty.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

removing mandatory mods

i'll keep this short since i could rant for hours about this:
give +damage and + multishot to weapons as they level up, the mods are too mandatory and are required to do any damage at all. keeping these as mods just means we have less room to customise weapons, and that was the point of modding wasn't it?
same does for +health and +shields on warframes as they level up. why do these need to be mods that take up 2 of our (very limited) 10 slots

mods should be a means to customize our weapons to our liking, not to make the more OP.

You realize multishot is a broken mod attribute right? Multishot mods were originally intended to consume the extra ammo that they expel. What you are suggesting is actually creating more power creep, and further unbalancing the game again.

I can understand, the concept of weapons increasing their damage as they rank up. But multishot should remain a mod, and should be fixed as originally intended to consume more ammo. At that point, you'll really have to decide if thats a mod you want to really use or not. And if we added more damage to weapons as they rank up, then once again, we have to address how fast that weapon ranks up, AND the complete damage system, and enemy scaling along with it. The mastery rank lock pass they did over weapons recently is a great start at approaching that.... but there is so much more that would have to be done for just that one little change.

I can also understand increasing natural health and shield limits on frames, but at the same time Im against that too. People already use meta builds that dont include health and shields. Granted they are usually terrible players and end up dying a lot... but I dont even use both health and shields generally. I tend to focus on health only, and leave the base shields. Point is, health and shield mods are already not mandatory in a lot of peoples builds as it is. You arent making suggestions to equalize or balance the game.... you are simply making suggestions that induce more power creep. There MUST be a sacrifice somewhere. But a lot of this generally comes down to players absolutely NEEDING to have a weapon that deals 5 million damage at level 15 content. As it exists right now, players absolutely COULD drop a few damage mods, and build for something more convenient to use.... they simply choose not to, and that wont change by getting rid of serration or split chamber. 

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

augment fixes

DE, please stop using augments to fix abilities. we only have 8 slots to mod our warfarmes, more often than not we cant afford to free up one of them slots just to get a change to an ability we should have gotten anyway.
i agree with the concept of augments, just not their application: an augments use should be to change the fundamental mechanics of an ability, should the user choose to equip it... not to fix potentially broken abilities.

I agree with the second half of this. SOME of the augments probably should have been a normal part of the ability to begin with.

The first half is just silly. Again, players have a clear choice in how they mod things. Its up to the player to overcome any weaknesses a frame or weapon have, especially if its a conscious choice to ignore that weakness or create one while modding. If a player cant afford to overcome that weakness, then I cant afford to take a complaint seriously about not being able to afford to do something clearly within their own choice.

5 hours ago, Arcturus125 said:

balancing of a mods importance

over the two years i have played this game, i can only assume that hundreds and hundreds of mods have been released. and yet we have seen no rise in the amount of mods we can equip. over that same two year period, only about 30-40 of them mods have become "meta" and have found their way into people's builds. shouldn't all mods have equal importance over the limited amount of slots we have? why are some mods way better than others despite having the same drain on capacity? i think that most if not all the mods need to be looked at so that if i had 1 mod slot open, there would be no 'best' mod to equip - only the one that best suited me.

No, they shouldnt. Especially when dealing with common to rare mods. I think mods could be looked at or not. Ultimately there cannot be a balance when almost every other suggestion here creates unbalance in the game to begin with. This really is a player problem and their unwillingness to even consider using "non-meta" mods, especially on content that clearly doesnt call for it. This is a player mentality problem, not a game problem, and both are equally just as difficult to fix as one cannot be fixed without the other and vice versa.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Faulcun

[luanle21]

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

snip

Took the words right outta my mouth

Yes warframe has issue, but you shouldn't be selfish of thinking to make everything best for the player only, the dev need to make a game that last and create revenue, if you want all these changes then give them all the money to pay every employee and server cost for the rest of the game life.

Must see it as both consumer and business prespective otherwise it won't ever get changed.

Forma system ok fine, its been ages since the original addition of the system.  A change to the system could be allowing you to swap polarity at will once forma said slot or whatever per config A B or C, however last I recall from a LONG time ago they say they cannot, maybe they can now who knows.  As a side note, I wish forma can be used to either boost certain stat or overall for every forma used can give a small amount of stat to a X cap of max forma used, idk its add powercreep which regardless is a never ending issue and will always be a issue, but doing such can add more reason to forma more then just Y amount cause mod capacity.

Augments for abilities system a change to this system can be something such as, obtain said mod, use a exlius adapter or forma or both cause why not (more profit possible for DE) to perma install the mod onto the warframe, and then in the ability tab of the arensal for warframes, you can switch which variation you want IE the augment version or the base version.  Doing so will make everyone happy that we get to keep that 1 single extra mod slot when using augment in builds, but then we have the usual people that yell OMG NERF EVERYTHING. 

Armor Scaling

Ok we all can agree that armor scaling is still far tooo high even tho its is less then what it was in damage 1.0 days, HOWEVER, banshee augment full strength build can do approx 12,000 blast damage per tick, hydron grineer which are only level 40s, from 12,000 down to 1,200 or less....... JESUS CHRIST | a fix to this or well more like bandage they can do is once again reduce the scaling EVEN MORE, but then they need to increase the grineer base hp to somewhat compensate for it.  My original thought was just straight out end armor scaling or make armor scaling a flat increase value, ie +5 armor per level, ie Elite Lancer Base Armor 200, = Lv1 for a example, Lv2 be 205 | Alternatively just +25 armor per 10 levels, something that won't make grineer feel like there a ancient healer giving them the 95% damage reduction buff 24/7

Minor Other Issue (Personal Opinion/Feedback)

Why can't we crit on certain object like containers or well anything that isn't a "enemy", cause i liked to know why I cannot crit on a eximus snow globe, since certain crit based weapon has horrible base damage and attempting to break said snow globe makes it very very annoying (yes ik we can just get up close, but for sake of being a game)

Nully Bubbles, ok they gave us a bandage to get rid of its bubble great, except hitbox is a bit small | My idea instead or well they can add is that give the damn bubble a actual HP bar, IDC if a lv 1 Nully with say 100 shield and 200 hp has a bubble worth 1500 shield, If it simply pop once you do enough require damage right away ill take it, Alternatively which prob would end up being better, Increase Decay of the shield as it take damage OR (yes another idea) if the bubble is decaying, but its still taking on damage while being decay, the backpack on Nully can overload and go BOOM with a shock proc within 3meter of it 

[Kimimoto]

4 hours ago, Faulcun said:

The void was "end game" in the same manor as "fashion frame". The short answer is its not.

A. Void was WAY closer to endgame than Fashion Frame was

B. I know it was "endgame" for me and my friends. It at least gave purpose to forma/rivens/arcanes. What gives purpose to those now?

[Messkoo]

About ballancing weapon/format them to make theme powerfull :

The issue is that DE have mad some patch not in the good order. We had Riven mod (not the solution for me) to compensate unbalenced weapons and after that we got recently and  finally the beginning of ballencing weapons. BUT riven and ballencing weapon don't go well together. It's one or other, not both. Riven work with popularity of the weapon, but we never had some feedback/change of this popularity (look at tonkor and gammacor sinoid, weapon very popular at a time, nerfed and yet rarely seen, and they still keep their old popularity for riven ...)

The good thing of this recent overall change of weapon is the impact of MR in weapon stats. And it make me think in some alternative :

change actual system of riven mod (because we can't remove it, it's too late) : they are not influenced by popularity but by MR of the weapon. They give all same amount bonus (so no strong or low affinity). But each Riven can be upgraded (with kuva or somthing else) to gain a MR point, and  upraded bonus. 

Some bonus must be an add of the base weapon stats. (and it will be good if we can choose it, with some max like 3 positive and 1  random negative if we want negative stat to add more stats). With this we can make you hown weapon stats.

So we can have 2 riven mod with same bonus, one for weapon MR 0  like braton and one for weapon with MR 10 like tiberon. But you can upgrade the MR of the reaven for the braton to add more bonus on it. So with a MR10riven for braton, you will have more bonus that the one for tiberon.  And then you can still upgrade them util it reach your MR.

It will be like uprading the MR of a weapon ta have stats fit their new MR.

Like that, with ballencing weapons around the MR, the base ballence of weapon is preserved, Riven mod are still usefull, and you can upgrade a MR0 weapon to high lvl if you want.

[Faulcun]

9 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

A. Void was WAY closer to endgame than Fashion Frame was

B. I know it was "endgame" for me and my friends. It at least gave purpose to forma/rivens/arcanes. What gives purpose to those now?

Those missions still exist. You can still play endless void missions for as long as you want/can just like any other endless mission. The only thing that has changed are the rewards that drop. Arguably whether you receive prime parts or not in the end has no real purpose to begin with. The fact that prime parts have been removed from the drop tables and the resulting lack of interest in void play signifies how much it was NOT endgame as the gameplay itself has not changed.

We (veterans like myself) have been asking for 5 years to give purpose to any of this. It did not exist then, and it still does not now. Ultimately if DE doesnt fix this particular problem, there wont be anybody left to develop the game for.

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Faulcun said:

We (veterans like myself) have been asking for 5 years to give purpose to any of this. It did not exist then, and it still does not now. Ultimately if DE doesnt fix this particular problem, there wont be anybody left to develop the game for.

I have been waiting too, but having Endless Kuva missions instead of nothing would definitely hold me over.

[Faulcun]

12 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

I have been waiting too, but having Endless Kuva missions instead of nothing would definitely hold me over.

kuva rewards on rotation in the kuva fortress would make sense

[CaptainZgred]

17 hours ago, Faulcun said:

1. why do weapons stop levelling at level 30. what is after level 30?
2. the void used to be great, why isn't it now?
3. enemy armor scales up with enemy level way too fast.
4. the current forma system limits the builds you can use
5. bullet jumps area drain on the gameplay - positioning is useless, playing tactically is more dangerous than spamming crouch and space
6. rotation rewards need to be improved and get better the longer you stay in missions
7. mandatory mods should not be a thing
8. augments shouldn't be used to fix abilities
9. each mod should be equally as good as the next

1. Yeah, there should be a way to spend additional affinity on something more useful than Focus.
2. I haven't played the old Void but there surely is one thing that keeps me from playing it nowadays - Corrupted Crewman and his Strun
3. Maybe not the armor but the damage. The difficulty in Warframe boils down to enemies oneshooting you with 850 energy and Quick Thinking in my opinion, which is sad.
4. In fact, it limits the possibilities so extremely that you must know the build you want to use before even trying it if you don't want to re-forma your formed slot.
5. ctrl + space + space + shift not only looks weird but also makes everything around feel so... artificial.
6. DE should get rid off such rewards as 20 or 50 endo, random mods that drops from enemies in hundreds, credit packs and so on and so on. I completely agree
7. I've always wondered why serration is even a thing
8. Yeah, not sure who would use sound quake without the augment.
9. Definitely, but judging by what kind of mods are getting released these days (condition overload, riven mods and maiming strike - although way earlier) it's hard to keep up with such levels of cheese.

Aside from that I think Kuva should drop in much larger amounts and should have a very specific set of endless missions designed for it.

And also, this is a cooperative game but at the same time players do not really have a common goal to try to achieve and I feel like it will slowly have an effect upon the community. I mean, in FPS games like Planetside your goal would be to just... Get better at fighting other players, in Minecraft it would be to build something big or really sophisticated or whatever. In Warframe possibilities are narrowing as soon as you will have farmed everything you wanted/possible. 

Riven mods could have been a step in the right direction but instead of them feeling like "Look, here's my very own thing, I will explain to you how it works and when it becomes useful" they feel like "Oh boy, that roll was worth 3000 platinum" or "The RNG god was on my side, now I'm OP". Gambling is addictive but it's no good in the long run.

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Faulcun said:

kuva rewards on rotation

Not just that, they have to scale. If it's just C rotation and out then nothing has changed.

[Cyalpha08]

reward scaling is a massive issue in Warframe. Its kind of the innate issue. people farm low level missions because theres no incentive to do higher ones. The rewards are exactly the same, in the same amounts, and the loot tables are too populated with rewards that DE swears new players want. New players dont want 40 endo. or 2.5k credits. You know what those are gonna get a new player? Nothing. Its a drop in a bucket required to do ANYTHING.

Endless missions are worse about it. theres no incentive to go past wave 20 or 20 minutes. because if you F*** up past those points. Its over. Everything you did was gone. A checkpoint system was suggested elsewhere, and honestly its a good idea. every 20 waves the game saves what stuff you've gathered, and should you fail after that, you get that stuff, nothing you picked up AFTER until the next checkpoint.

And Oxium farming. Why go to a high level mission where the suicide bombing ospreys are HARDER to kill, but drop the same reward as their lower level siblings.  The same applies to just about every other drop.

The rewards system in general needs a full overhaul, and DE's constant ideas of "New Players want this" Have proven time and time again, they may not actually play their own game.

I sure do love logging in, at day 290+ and getting three card monty for 40, 80, or 160 endo. Thats clearly worth my 2000 hours in this game

Edited February 21, 2018 by Cyalpha08

[luanle21]

3 hours ago, CaptainZgred said:

1. -snip

 

about the banshee augment

the augment is made so banshee ult can actually kill something, while its great at lower levels and certain mission type

the main reason at least for me personally is her base ult, hit 4, max range and eff with energy, k the entire map is now on stun-lockdown and imo it still the ultimate cheese strag for certain mission mostly for high end interception sortie

side note: 

When will they just let us buy Kuva from Cetus in a 1 rep : 2 kuva blood and then add relic packs to the quills (which would make some sense)

and When is Kuva Fortress tileset actually going to reward us Kuva?

Kuva reward is indeed too low and even with a booster its feel slow, my solution instead of just saying "increase kuva, make it scale reward" | My solution is to fix the source where we needed the Kuva, Riven Rerolls, instead of making the bloody thing scale the cost up how about DE just make a FLAT value, 1 Kuva mission without booster yiel 550-600 kuva, so a FLAT Kuva cost to reroll can simply be 750 or 900 Kuva which again DE means that IT STAY AT 750 COST FOR EVERY REROLL EVEN IF YOUR AT ROLL #10,000 | just a thought you know, cause if they increase Kuva extraction then they going to need to bump up the few recipes that uses kuva and bump them up as well and it prob too much work with their current projects at hand

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by luanle21

[(PSN)Nozomi244]

I disagree on the  new prime part farming system. Void fissures are better in every way than what it used to be. The drop table for any tower key back in the day had like 12-15 items on it and the rng was not evenly spread among them. The new system gives affinity, credit, resource, and resource drop chance boosters the longer you go in a mission as well as having drop tables way smaller at only 6 per relic. Also its way more variety instead of being in the same void tileset 99% of the time.

[Cyalpha08]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Chimaera244 said:

The new system gives affinity, credit, resource, and resource drop chance boosters the longer you go in a mission

Not every relic has that. Which is weird. Also ALL endless missions should have the chance boosters the longer you go. It would incentivize players to ACTUALLY stick around during normal Defenses and such.

[(PSN)Nozomi244]

They do all have that though...

[luanle21]

16 minutes ago, Cyalpha08 said:

Not every relic has that. Which is weird. Also ALL endless missions should have the chance boosters the longer you go. It would incentivize players to ACTUALLY stick around during normal Defenses and such.

they all do

Join Fissure, Select Relic (Any), Get 10 Reactant, every End of a Rotation, Relic Unlock, you can choose what reward you want, Every relic UNLOCKED by collecting enough Reactant while also SELECTING A RELIC in the first place get a bonus, bonus rotation goes as

25%+ Xp, Credit, Resource, Resource Chance, 5th rotation is a randomly upgraded Relic and repeat which add another 25% in each boost area

now you claim that not every relic has that, probably cause you did some matches where you did not equip a relic or did not have one however still collected the reactant thinking it will still give you said bonus, the fact is that is a bug and not suppose to give you reactant if you did not equip a relic, you ONLY gain the bonus if you crack a relic, if you DO NOT you don't get it

[Cyalpha08]

Sometimes, Even when selecting a relic, finishing a defense relic, It doesnt grant the drop rate bonuses. Usually liths.

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, luanle21 said:

Also ALL endless missions should have the chance boosters the longer you go.

2 hours ago, luanle21 said:

you did some matches where you did not equip a relic

 

Whoosh!

[Kimimoto]

5 hours ago, Cyalpha08 said:

eward scaling is a massive issue in Warframe. Its kind of the innate issue. people farm low level missions because theres no incentive to do higher ones.

5 hours ago, Cyalpha08 said:

Endless missions are worse about it. theres no incentive to go past wave 20 or 20 minutes.

 

It is, having the option to start any Fissure at level 100 and gain reward scaling would make it a level playing field. It would also make Lith fissures bearable, it takes Liths WAY to long to scale to the point where you're not hunting for one enemy.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Kimimoto

[Xzorn]

( This isn't all directed at OP. Some are counter arguments )

Leveling Cap) Focus was actually supposed to be the answer. They even claimed it to be years back. It's just been turned into sad deformed version of it's original intend and now many of us once again have nothing to do with that extra affinity.

 

The Void) was actually end-game. This is why majority of the enemy's in the Void are stronger than their non-Corrupted counterparts. Endurance runs were a community created end-game activity brought on by players originally asking if they could keep playing Defense missions. To be quite frank this community created end-game has been far better and long lasting than anything DE has "officially" produced. So perhaps they should listen to the players more often when it comes to end-game activities.

 

Armor Scaling) There actually isn't a solution to armor scaling in the current iteration of the Damage system.

Also, it's not the armor scaling that you're feeling as enemies scale. It's the HP. It's hard to tell the difference because we do far too much damage to fight the enemies DE throws at us.  If you go with the static armor idea then you create a threshold where only a certain status rate is needed and that number will never change as enemy's scale. This depreciates the value of heavily status weapons like Paracyst or Torrid so by making a weapon like Soma work better against a static armor enemy you're making other weapons less valuable.

In order to work properly DE would need to rework the Damage system, Scaling, Armor and majority of weapons.

 

Forma) The system is actually pretty out of date by this point and I find it unreasonable to expect players to own multiple vaulted frames in order to fit available build options. Not to mention. Last I checked I can't make a second Supra Vandal or any Event weapon when it's first released. Much of the blame can be place on pointless Aura Polarities though but costly Rivens hardly helped.

Parkour)  Bullet Jump is actually one of the worst options as a panic button. Dodge Roll is superior in every way and it's even competitive as transportation. Positioning and mobility very much matter. Just not at the levels most players hang out at.

Staple Mods) One replaces another. Much like armor I'm not sure there's a reasonable fix without a lot of extra work. It's not like players will pick Utility over damage unless forced by the weapon design itself. Even then it's still a staple mod, just a weapon specific one.

Augments) Yep. Many of them are Band-aids like Iron Shrapnel or so incredibly powerful you'd be an idiot to not use them like Resonance. There's also just useless augments like Titania's Lantern. I'd say maybe a 50% hit/miss ratio on well rounded "Options" to choose between using an augment or not. The other 50% are an obvious Yes or No.

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 13 heures, Faulcun a dit :

Those missions still exist. You can still play endless void missions for as long as you want/can just like any other endless mission. The only thing that has changed are the rewards that drop. 

I just wanted to point out how much of a fallacy this is. This is a looter, the whole point of the game is loot. 

If the mission is there but it gives you basically no loot, what's the point? The gameplay is the same all over the mission roaster, other than some small exceptions (raids and pvp). It's the combination of gameplay AND loot that matters. 

The fissure system did some things well. IE, back when Vauban Prime came out i came to phisically loathe T4 defences. The fact i can run ANY axi mission on ANY tileset is nice. And the drop rates now are manageable. I still remember the hellish grind for Ash systems, Nova systems, Vauban chassis etc. 

What it did wrong is mostly about the fact that it no longer encourages you to test your limits, and that even the missions that do (cause let's face it the x2 stackable boosters and free radiants are pretty nice rewards) aren't always available, which is a crime. 

It imo would be nice to make the Void nodes into permanent fissures. That would solve two problems:

• It would give back some purpose to what i and many friends of mine think is the most iconic tileset of this game, with the bonus that you could CHOOSE to run it or any other tileset, and it would fix the problem of sometimes there being no fissures of a given tier up. 
• It would solve the problem of endurance runners in that many times there are no endless Fissure missions to run. Endless Fissures are FUN for endurance. They spawn more stuff, give you stuff and are harder than normal missions. 

On topic, imo also Kuva Floods should get better integrated into the system. Each Kuva node should give you a choice - standard level for 600 kuva, lv 80+ for 1200. Each one. So i can stop boring myself to death on enemies i barely even register as a threat and can play against enemies that at least make me feel like i'm fighting... 

Another thing that could give something more to do to people who used to run hours of endless would de a set of "nightmare" sorties you can play after you played the normal ones, or in place of the normal ones, that have much higher levels (100-175-250 would probably work) and maybe 2 modifiers... 

 

@Xzorn i particularly agree with the staple mods, augment and forma points.

Staples aren't going away unless you rework the whole GAME from the ground up. I'm talking stats of all weapons/frames/abilities, mechanics, enemy scaling, modding system, level ranges... It's not going to happen. It would be worse than making a new Warframe with even less returns on the investment. 

Because unless you do that, there's always going to be a new staple one. Might as well remove modding on anything save for frames. 

About the formas

I made a topic that got mostly ignored save for one guy about giving us the option of choosing to polarise only one of the ABC slots because of stuff like Frost, Trinity and Nova having so many build options it's nearly impossible to fit them all. Worse because many of those frames are VAULTED. IE i have 3 frost builds and to fit all 3 my main build is forced to use a downranked Primed Flow else there would be no way to fit the others. That's not smart. 

On the augment i feel you have maybe been optimistic even. There are even less augments that provide actual alternatives to gameplay, and some of those are really bad (funnel clouds, hallowed eruption) while some are reaply good (elemental buffs for 1 skills, prolongued paralysis, lasting covenant). The large majority of augments is either a straight up buff (irradiating disarm, transistor shield, staggering shield etc), a mechanical fix (iron shrapnel, everlasting ward) or nearly completely worthless.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Autongnosis

[Xzorn]

17 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

• It would give back some purpose to what i and many friends of mine think is the most iconic tileset of this game, with the bonus that you could CHOOSE to run it or any other tileset, and it would fix the problem of sometimes there being no fissures of a given tier up. 
• It would solve the problem of endurance runners in that many times there are no endless Fissure missions to run. Endless Fissures are FUN for endurance. They spawn more stuff, give you stuff and are harder than normal missions. 

 

Would totally take that. Time restrictions of Fissure rotations makes it far more difficult to get players with common goals together.

It would also help a lot if the lower planets would scale up in rotation rewards to at least the same of upper planets. So by 40min on Earth you're getting 400 Endo packs like you would in a higher level mission. Maybe even have some rewards start based on Mastery level and allow higher Tier Fissures to spawn on lower planets.

I remember that or a similar idea for Forma. Having the Polarity set independent to each Config A, B, C. it's a good idea.

[Cyalpha08]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Chimaera244 said:

They do all have that though...

To clarify, I meant all endlesses, not just fissure ones.

[Faulcun]

8 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

I just wanted to point out how much of a fallacy this is. This is a looter, the whole point of the game is loot. 

If the mission is there but it gives you basically no loot, what's the point? The gameplay is the same all over the mission roaster, other than some small exceptions (raids and pvp). It's the combination of gameplay AND loot that matters. 

You are arguing to a response from a different comment. The comment suggested that the old void was end game. I say its not. I say its a makeshift response to a lack of actual end game content.

You have TWO approaches to the old system. The loot aspect, and the challenge aspect.

The challenge aspect is still there and has not changed. In this instance, I say this is not end game because having to be in an endless mission for an hour before you can begin to enjoy difficult content, with no real purpose other than to see how long you can go.... is not engaging end game content. At this point in the game, the loot is secondary, and even with prime parts serves no real purpose other than trading for platinum.

So your end game is either challenge, or loot. Farming prime parts can still be done, and even more efficiently now. I agree its a combination of gameplay and loot..... both of which become meaningless once you've collected everything and further have no reason to play those missions anyways. The void still drops loot.. its just not the loot you want. And the challenge aspect of it obviously isnt important because people dont play it anymore anyways.

Imo, raid missions were a step in the right direction if they had expanded on it..... and if their coding didnt fall apart every update.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Faulcun

[Kokomala]

On 2/20/2018 at 9:06 AM, Arcturus125 said:

• enemy armor scales up with enemy level way too fast.
• mandatory mods should not be a thing
• each mod should be equally as good as the next

Just touching on these from a design perspective.

Games that have endless modes typically have some sort of system in place that provides an upper ceiling for what a player can achieve. These typically fall into 2 categories (in shooter/arpg etc): 1) stuff that hits hard/fast to kill you quickly, and 2) stuff that doesn't die fast enough. Rapidly scaling armor is simply the primary system that this game uses to provide a ceiling, however stripping armor (via corrosive status procs or the aura) allows players to bypass this to an extent. A full squad can remove it entirely if they so chose. Adjusting or removing the system simply adds an arbitrary number to the ceiling (take diablo 3's rifts as an example, each season basically add a few extra levels to the maximum rift cap a player/group can achieve). Whilst you'll always have outliers in a community that pushes the game to the extreme, having a ceiling can be a good thing as in some cases game systems can get rather weird/buggy at the extremes (Ghandi in the original civilization game for example). Sure you can argue that the armor scales way too fast, however think of it as a designed ceiling so balance doesn't go completely bonkers if you go too far past the cap.

There will always be mandatory mods for certain builds. There's plenty of ways to build each frame and there's obviously going to be mods that are most useful, and even these mods vary between frames and build goals. People will tend to gravitate towards builds (and thus mods) that are the most powerful, useful and efficient. There's no one stopping you from adjusting your mod load out but yourself. Having a solid variety is a good thing which leads into my last point:

Each mod should not be equally as good as the next. You need low "power" mods to teach players the value of the different mods. Think of mods as a collectible card game (take MtG) where there are many, many low power cards. Some of these cards are there to teach new players, others are niche in the fact that they require certain combinations to shine, whilst others are fairly obvious to their relative power/value. Some mods almost certainly should be adjusted to be more appealing, however having a variety of power between mods keeps things interesting and allows players to experiment.