LuinCeltchar Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I don't need to wait and see to know that no innate punch-through and a 33% reduction in range is going to kill Ignis/IgnisW for me since crate clearing is the only thing I use it for. I just hope DE aren't preparing to slow the pace of the game down with damage 2.5, otherwise I'm out. The fast pace is the only thing that makes the mostly atrocious RNG somewhat bearable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mu_Gera Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 As long as beam status gets improved, everything comes second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlinaBee Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Just now, Crimson_S said: Well this also dosent say if the damage system is moving from the "per tick" or no, if it is it should be a buff. "per tick" is no different than combined damage per second as far as math, just more actual instances for high status chance (lack of procs was really killing beam weapons, but the pure DPS is also low on top of limited range) so unless DE are not saying something important that makes the new mechanic amazing its a numerical nerf more status per sec is an improvement, but not nearly enough to save these weapons compared to how buffed most other weapons got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiTodd Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 What about buffing ember tho? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul5473 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 So is this removing status per second? i'm just a bit confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leodegrance Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 This sounds great. Will Melee weapons be getting a pass?? Not that I'm suggesting they need it but very curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEternalJester Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, DaMasque said: Really wanted this gun to have a secondary fire, shoots a blot/spike... kinda like Mei's gun from Overwatch. And heck... why not have damage from the primary fire increase when you're hitting enemies with blots/spikes in them. You're thinking of the Acrid, not the Embolist. Embolist is the gas-spewing pistol. Acrid launches the darts. Speaking of Acrid: Still no changes for it? Disappointed. Beyond that minor point, I'm going to hold judgement for the time being until the changes come, but those range increments make them only useful in non-PoE tilesets. Quanta looks like it gets the best of the range changes, but the most of them are 30m or lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekalty Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Edit: Moved to my first post in this thread, because ain't nobody goes to Page 10. Allow me to compare apples to oranges: Primaries Spoiler Mastery Rank 4-6 Flux Rifle Damage 22.8 Physical (80% Slash, 10% Puncture, 10% Impact) -> 22 Physical (56% Puncture and 44% Slash) Fire Rate 10 -> 12 Status Chance 25% per second -> 24% Critical Chance 5% -> 10% Converted to Battery with 50 capacity, 1 sec recharge delay and 40 regen rate Range 25m -> 30m 0.5m Punch Through .5 Ammo requirementNote: Since introducing the Cycron and seeing your thoughts, we're improving battery-based ammunition in this beam revisit including adding it to the Flux Rifle. Flux Rifle's original reload time was 2 seconds. With battery, regen delay approximates to roughly less reload time (just over 1 second) with the added bonus that dodge rolls don't interrupt it. Ignis Mastery Rank 4- > 5 Damage 27 Heat -> 33 Heat Fire Rate 10 -> 8 Status Chance 25% per second -.> 27% Critical Chance 5% -> 11% Magazine 150/750 Capacity Range 40 -> 20m 0.15m beam thickness expanding to 3m at end point Flame passes through all avatars damaging them but will now be stopped by level geometry and require punch through mods to penetrate walls. We had to make some compromises in the base beam functionality to properly have the flame pass through avatars and hit everything like a flamethrower, but punch-through Mods can be used for those who valued it's wall-clearing behaviour. Quanta Damage 220 Electricity -> 20 Electricity Fire Rate 1 -> 12 Status Chance 10% per second - >16% Critical Chance 10% -> 16% Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.2x Magazine 60/540 Capacity Range 50m -> 40m Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m Alt Fire Explosion Damage 400 -> 600 Mastery Rank 7-9 Glaxion Mastery Rank 6- > 8 Damage 16.6 Cold -> 26 Freeze(??) Fire Rate 20 -> 12 Status Chance 35% per second -> 34% Critical Chance 5% -> 8% Reload Time 1.5secs -> 2.2secs Magazine 300/1500 -> 80/720 Capacity Range 24m .5 Ammo requirement Ignis Wraith Mastery Rank 6 -> 9 Damage 25 Heat -> 35 Heat Fire Rate 10 -> 8 Status Chance 30% per second -> 29% Critical Chance 12% -> 17% Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.5x Magazine 200/800 Capacity Range 40m -> 27m 0.15m beam thickness expanding to 3m at end point Flame passes through all avatars damaging them but will now be stopped by level geometry and require punch through mods to penetrate walls. We had to make some compromises in the base beam functionality to properly have the flame pass through avatars and hit everything like a flamethrower, but punch-through Mods can be used for those who valued it's wall-clearing behaviour. Convectrix Mastery Rank 3 -> 7 Damage 100 Physical (80% Slash, 10% Puncture, 10% Impact) -> 24 Physical (ISP spread??) Fire Rate 3 -> 12 Status Chance 25% per second -> 24% Critical Chance 10% -> 18% Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.2x Range 25m -> 30m Magazine 90/450 -> 120/600 Capacity Mastery Rank 10-12 Synapse Mastery Rank 6 -> 11 Damage 12.5 Electricity -> 18 Corrosive Fire Rate 10 -> 12 Status Chance 10% per second -> 13% Critical Chance 50% -> 39% Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.7x Range 18m -> 19m Magazine 100/540 -> 70/560 Capacity .5 Ammo requirement Amprex Mastery Rank 5 -> 10 Damage 7.5 Electricity -> 24 Electricity Fire Rate 20 -> 12 Status Chance 20% per second -> 22% Critical Chance 50% -> 32% Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.2x Range 18m -> 14m Magazine 100/540 -> 100/700 Capacity .5 Ammo requirement Quanta Vandal Mastery 4 -> ?? Damage 220 Electricity -> 26 Electricity Fire Rate 1 -> 12 Status Chance 25% per second -> 30% Critical Chance 10% -> 22% Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.4x Reload 2.0secs -> 1.8 secs Range 50m Magazine 90/540 -> 80/560 Capacity Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m Alt Fire Explosion Damage 250 -> 600 Phage Mastery Rank 6 -> 11 Damage 330 Viral -> 30 Viral Fire Rate 1 -> 12 Status Chance 15% per second -> 31% Critical Chance 10% -> 19% Magazine 40/120 -> 170/680 Capacity Range 25m Secondaries Spoiler Mastery Rank 0-3 Gammacor Damage 50 Magnetic -> 16 Magnetic Fire Rate 5 -> 12 Status Chance 5% per second -> 20% Critical Chance 5% -> 8% Critical Damage 1.5x -> 1.8x Reload 2.0secs -> 1.4 secs Range 25m -> 24m Magazine 50/210 -> 60/240 Capacity .5 Ammo requirement Mastery Rank 4-6 Atomos Mastery Rank 4 -> 5 Fire Rate 5 -> 8 Damage 50 Fire -> 29 Fire Status Chance 10% per second -> 21% Critical Chance 5% -> 15% Critical Damage 1.5x -> 1.7x Magazine 50/210 -> 70/300 Capacity Range 15m Nukor Fire Rate 5 -> 10 Damage 32 Radiation -> 22 Radiation Status Chance 20% per second -> 29% Critical Chance 1% -> 3% Range 20m -> 21m .5 Ammo requirement Spectra Fire Rate 5 -> 12 Damage 30 Physical (70% Puncture, 20% Slash, 10% Impact) -> 18 Physical (42% Puncture, 58% Slash) Status Chance 20% per second -> 22% Critical Chance 5% -> 14% Reload 2.0secs -> 1.8secs Magazine 80/360 -> 60/360 Capacity 0.5m Punch Through Range 15m -> 16m .5 Ammo requirement Mastery Rank 7-9 Cycron Mastery Rank 9 -> 8 Fire Rate 5 -> 12 Damage 60 Heat -> 23 (25% Puncture, 25% Slash, 50% Radiation) Status Chance 30% per second -> 30% Critical Chance 5% -> 12% Critical Damage 1.5x -> 1.8x Battery Capacity 60, regen delay 1 secs, regen rate 40 Range 20m 1m Punch Through .5 Ammo requirement Embolist Mastery Rank 8 -> 9 Fire Rate 10 -> 8 Damage 18.5 Toxin -> 35 Poison(??) Status Chance 10% per second -> 41% Critical Chance 2.5% -> 3% Reload 1.5secs -> 1.3secs Range 6m -> 9m 1m Radius at beam end point .5 Ammo requirement Synoid Gammacor Mastery Rank 6 -> 7 Damage 28 Magnetic -> 20 Magnetic Status Chance 20% per second -> 28% Critical Chance 10% -> 20% Reload 2.0secs -> 1.8 secs Magazine 150/540 -> 80/400 Capacity Range 25m -> 30m .5 Ammo requirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I see you guys are scared of the 80% Slash weight Flux Rifle. ....I don't blame you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xolgys Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 if this is literally the old beam weapons system then holy cow...some old memories come back right now and i actually cant wait how these numbers will turn out ingame. just seeing the new stats on embolist and phage...not to mention ignis w....lovely ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire2box Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Valiant said: Shows you hardly checked the stats before going off on one. Fairly sure there is a damage buff too. More status would be nice for that freezing bonus proc but we'll see. Also, comparing the glaxion to Tigris prime makes no sense at all as they're two different weapons. Same goes for tiberon. They aren't beam weapons which have different mechanics. I mean, have you even tried the glaxion - which has 5 depo - with a decent riven yet? Something tells me you haven't. I have and it's decent. Still having the focus status proc's would have been nice too but oh well. Plus, if you're after crit's or physical proc's, you're looking at the wrong weapon. Well duh. it's just if those weapons are superior and they all have rivens the odd's of the glaxion ever being needed to be used are probably pretty damn low. Haven't even built a glaxion yet AFIK since beam weapons have been useless. If you've read any of my posts in this topic you'd clearly see I have no problems in being wrong nor admitting to such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubtleOaf Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 As some have already asked, what about the Panthera's alt fire? Also, could it get a toggle between the two modes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said: -snip- So, let's see (some assumptions will be made) GENERAL REVIEW: Positive changes: I assume the current "status/second"-mechanic is going away? If so, that sounds like great news! Negative changes: Why do you insist on this "damage ramp up" thing? That sounds very unresponsive to me, and keeps similar issues (although much lesser so) to the CURRENT beam-mechanics. Please consider getting rid of this. Range still all quite low in most cases (a few even nerfed)! - This needs another look imo. Less than 25 meters still really doesn't sound like a fun useage of the guns. Unclear changes: This "0.5 ammo per trace"-thing, does that mean their ammocost/second is halfed (so, a 12 RoF weapon with this bonus only has 6 ammoconsumption per second)? If so... then that's actually really awesome. If that's not what it means... ouch, there goes the ammo-economy out the window! Onto specific weapon feedback:Primaries: Spoiler Flux Rifle Overall, this actually seems to become on of the better guns of the bunch (ironically), due to the battery mechanics (especially with such a highly improved rate too). Will it still frequently cut enemies in half and such though? That was part of its morbid fun. If it would help, maybe swap the physical damage ratios?Ignis + Ignis Wraith I hope its mechanical changes gives us a real flamethrower, rather than this weird AoE-beam-thing you had going until now. If it's even half as well done as the Killing Floor 1's Flamethrower, I'd be really happy :) Also, NOT giving these the 0.5 ammo-thingy (as far as I have understood its mechanics at least) seems fair, due to the massive punchthrough it still possesses.Quanta + Quanta Vandal Will the secondary fire change more? Hopefully still no selfdamage, yes? Also, the ammo-economy nerf on these guns seems a little... overkill? Although, I guess that's sort of fair, considering its powerful altfire *shrugs*Glaxion Well... at least it's buffed (that's not saying much though).Convectrix Considering its wonky mechanics with the splitting laser... why did you (overall) NERF this weapon's ammo economy so harshly? It was already considered garbage. It seems you ignored gimmicks in consideration for balance. The fact that you DIDN'T give this gun the 0.5 ammo thing, does that mean that there is some hidden strength in multibeam weapons like this? Does it proc status on EACH beam? Still, considering its wonkiness, I think it deserves the 0.5 ammo thing regardless. Also, that "rampup damage over 0.8 seconds"-thing is gonna make its sweeping gimmick basicly POINTLESS now. Way to overruin this gun :(Synapse I like the change to Corrosive. Another alternative would've been to give it the "Battery"-treatment too, so it feels even further distinct from the Amprex. The critchance nerf to 39%... why couldn't you at least leave it at 40% so we can have consistent crits? Is this a deliberate taunt, eh? :DAmprex I guess the nerfs in critchance for this gun is totally in order (especially considering the massive economy-buff in contrast to its current state), considering it's chaining effect (which will probably be MUCH more difficult to use now, due to the constant ticking. The old "3 damage-ticks per second", while lackluster on other guns, was actually working in this gun's favour, so it could chain quite decently. Will have to see how it turns out I guess *shrugs*Phage Similar to the Convectrix: Tiny buffs, but with a complete gutting to ammo economy, with no consideration or alteration to its currently very clunky mechanics? For example, how about letting the "spread" of the tentacles be memorized? And as such, let the aimbutton be what shrinks the spread, and altfire increases the spread? Just a thought. I mean, yes, it has good DPS-stats, but in practice most of the other ones still seem to greatly superior. And, same thoughts for it from me in regards to the "no 0.5 ammo thing" since its a multibeam gun. Some clarity here would definitely be nice (and/or giving it that treatmeant as well, due to the wonkiness it has, unless changed similar to what I suggested for it). Secondaries: Spoiler Gammacor Making the regular Gammacor an "entry-level" secondary beamgun seems like a good decision to.Atomos Still seems to be somewhat ok, even if slightly nerfed in ammo economy. The chaining mechanic hopefully will still work well with the new changes (although it does have some similar risks of being less useful, as mentioned for the Amprex).Nukor Pretty big buffs here, nothing to complain about.Spectra Doesn't this deserve a BIT more than a little punchthrough as its bonus? It still has that beam-stretch wind-up, no?Cycron Niiiice, now THIS seems awesome! Can't wait to get my hands on this. Question though; With the radical change to its damagetype, will it still autoproc Heat? That was like the only awesome feature it had before, and it'd be a shame to lose that function (although, with those changes, I guess it wouldn't be an all to sad loss)Embolist Still a wannabe melee weapon I see? :P That said, the statchanges look to be rather awesome (although, even if the range was improved, it's still far too low). Will it still have innate Toxic-proc though? Also, no ammoreserves changed? And/Or is the augment being changed (which currently makes the magazinesize so big it doesn't even allow you to fully reload your whole magazine from the reserves even ONCE!)? Synoid Gammacor Does it still have a RoF at 15 (which then becomes 7.5 ammoconsumption with the "0.5 ammo bonus"-thing, no?)? Regardless, seems to be a decent QoL-stat-reallocation to this long forgotten gun. So yeah, overall, sad about Convectrix and Phage (seemingly) becoming bad guns, but happy to see Flux Rifle and Cycron (seemingly) become really awesome guns. Missed beam-trigger weapons: Operator Beam-amps (Mote and Klebrik)? Panthera's Buzzsaw Altfire? The Taxon's Artax? What about those?Other thoughts: How about giving the battery treatment (or at least regenerative ammopool) to a few other guns, which even after the weapon reworks, are somewhat lackluster? Like, for example, the Cestra family of weapons? They are really underwhelming, still, with that MASSIVE recoil and overly long reloadtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCanG Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Why not make for Quanta's combined ammunition? For beams (primary attack) make battery-type ammo, but for secondary make 90 ammo and 15 per shot, so you will need to pickup ammo to restore secondary attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maka.Bones Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Excited to try out the new changes! Ty guys! <3 Not sure how I feel about the changes to ignis, and its wraith counterpart though... But I'm still looking forward to testing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReDRoS Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 il y a 9 minutes, Azamagon a dit : So, let's see (some assumptions will be made) GENERAL REVIEW: Positive changes: I assume the current "status/second"-mechanic is going away? If so, that sounds like great news! Negative changes: Why do you insist on this "damage ramp up" thing? That sounds very unresponsive to me, and keeps similar issues (although much lesser so) to the CURRENT beam-mechanics. Please consider getting rid of this. Range gutting - This really isn't needed. Less than 25 meters really doesn't sound like a fun useage of the guns. all that is needed for the flow is to remove the status of% per second and give the radius of attack of the 50s for weapons such as phage to increase the rate of fire but the fact that the developers have shown us not as not happy, I seriously want to use streaming on the plains on the teralers, because all the updates are now associated with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtualViolet Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said: Quanta Vandal Damage 26 Electricity Fire Rate 12 Status Chance 30% Critical Chance 22% Critical Damage 2.4x Reload 1.8 secs 50m Range Magazine 80/560 Capacity Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m Alt Fire Explosion Damage 600 Nerfing the ammo efficiency of my all-time favorite weapon and lowering the clip size to boot? Sure, it gets much higher DPS, but burns through its clip in 6.67 seconds...and that's just the primary fire. Alt fire is going to deal nearly 3 times as much damage...no mention of the ammo cost, so I'm guessing it drains the whole clip in one trigger pull. The 0.2 second faster reload speed isn't even close to making up for this. Its damage was fine before. I loved this weapon for the incredibly ammo-efficient primary fire. It already melts faces, now it will just burn through its ammo supply insanely fast while doing so. This is exactly what they did to the Synoid Gammacor back in the day, buffed its DPS and slaughtered its ammo-efficiency, and now literally no one uses it. Speaking of which: 3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said: Synoid Gammacor Mastery Rank 7 Damage 20 Magnetic Status Chance 28% Critical Chance 20% Reload 1.8 secs Magazine 80/400 Capacity 30m Range .5 Ammo requirement I have no idea what this means. Current fire rate is 15 (15 ammo/damage instances per sec)...no fire rate listed here, only ".5 ammo requirement." Does this mean it's keeping the 15 damage instances per sec but halving the ammo cost? The base damage is lowering from 28 to 20, which I can't parse correctly without the new fire rate numbers, but I don't know if twice the crit rate is going to make up for that damage nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, -Pure said: What would be the point in showing the weapons...they dont know how to mod them anyway its not like you would actually see how good they are. It would let me know if Damage is per particle or if status is also per particle. Also 4 Status dual stat mods, Hornet Strike, 2 Multishot Mods and Spectra Range Augment (Sequence Beam) Not asking for a Riven specific build. Pretty sure Developers are well aware of "Staple" mods or they can even use community Player accounts. Unless you are generalizing that the majority of player accounts used by Devs in stream also do not know how to mod. Not asking for even a decent build, just clarity to show what I may expect in terms of damage ramp-up, status procs, and general weapon handling changes. (Spectra currently uses 2 ammo to see beam and deal damage. Single tap to consume 1 ammo just wastes that single ammo)* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarikBentusi Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Two questions: - right now, the Embolist's Syndicate mod (Eroding Blight) puts its Magazine size at 300 while keeping its Reserve Ammo at the pistol default of 210, which makes reloading pretty awkard. Any chance of this getting a revisit? - does multishot affect beam weapons differently now? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroxenes Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Something that wasn't really touched on here was how multishot works on beam weapons. Currently it just increases damage output rather than spawning new traces with their own status/crit chances. Is this changing at all in the new implementation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Spider_Enigma Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Vargras said: Not a beam weapon. it is a beam weapon.... it shoots a continues beam sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarltheStabber Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 hours ago, GrayArchon said: You can equip Combustion Beam on Panthera. That's about all the proof I need that it's a beam weapon. It literally does not fire a beam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundervision Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Sad to see Flux Rifle being on the bottom of the MR list, it was one of the strongest weapons in Damage 1.0. Even more sadder is seeing it going from 80% Slash to 56% Puncture and 44% Slash. Flux is mostly Slash (80%) atm, but assuming the WIP info gets a pass it will be Puncture-oriented (56%). Spectra is mostly Puncture (70%) atm, but will turn into Slash-oriented (58%). Why all these flips? I really hope you'll change your mind and leave Flux Rifle being a Slash-based weapon. Of course, I need to see it in action first, but I can't say I'm pleased to see this paper-info. That was the only weapon I was eager to get rebalance details about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtualViolet Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said: With such a huge change in behavior, comparing new stats with old is like apples to oranges so they are presented on their own below from our designer Why bother giving the new stats at all, then, if we have no context in which to make sense of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 minute ago, KarltheStabber said: It literally does not fire a beam... Panthera's secondary fire is a press and hold button which launches a blade 'floating' at target, acting as a beam weapon. With Combustion Beam, you're essentially making its primary fire to be able of doing explosion damage from said mod. Secondary fire is what is referred to "beam weapon". This is indeed odd, but it's what DE made it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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