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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop: Beam Weapons Revisited!

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I don't need to wait and see to know that no innate punch-through and a 33% reduction in range is going to kill Ignis/IgnisW for me since crate clearing is the only thing I use it for. I just hope DE aren't preparing to slow the pace of the game down with damage 2.5, otherwise I'm out. The fast pace is the only thing that makes the mostly atrocious RNG somewhat bearable.

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Just now, Crimson_S said:

Well this also dosent say if the damage system is moving from the "per tick" or no, if it is it should be a buff.

"per tick" is no different than combined damage per second as far as math, just more actual instances for high status chance (lack of procs was really killing beam weapons, but the pure DPS is also low on top of limited range)

so unless DE are not saying something important that makes the new mechanic amazing its a numerical nerf

more status per sec is an improvement, but not nearly enough to save these weapons compared to how buffed most other weapons got

 

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So is this removing status per second? i'm just a bit confused

Edited by paul5473

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1 hour ago, DaMasque said:

Really wanted this gun to have a secondary fire, shoots a blot/spike... kinda like Mei's gun from Overwatch.

And heck... why not have damage from the primary fire increase when you're hitting enemies with blots/spikes in them.

You're thinking of the Acrid, not the Embolist. Embolist is the gas-spewing pistol. Acrid launches the darts.

 

Speaking of Acrid: Still no changes for it? Disappointed.


Beyond that minor point, I'm going to hold judgement for the time being until the changes come, but those range increments make them only useful in non-PoE tilesets. Quanta looks like it gets the best of the range changes, but the most of them are 30m or lower.

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Edit: Moved to my first post in this thread, because ain't nobody goes to Page 10.

Allow me to compare apples to oranges: 

Primaries

Spoiler

 

Mastery Rank 4-6

Flux Rifle

Damage 22.8 Physical (80% Slash, 10% Puncture, 10% Impact) -> 22 Physical (56% Puncture and 44% Slash)

Fire Rate 10 -> 12

Status Chance 25% per second -> 24%

Critical Chance 5% -> 10%

Converted to Battery with 50 capacity, 1 sec recharge delay and 40 regen rate

Range 25m -> 30m

0.5m Punch Through

.5 Ammo requirement

Note: Since introducing the Cycron and seeing your thoughts, we're improving battery-based ammunition in this beam revisit including adding it to the Flux Rifle. Flux Rifle's original reload time was 2 seconds. With battery, regen delay approximates to roughly less reload time (just over 1 second) with the added bonus that dodge rolls don't interrupt it.
 

Ignis

Mastery Rank 4- > 5

Damage 27 Heat -> 33 Heat

Fire Rate 10 -> 8

Status Chance 25% per second -.> 27%

Critical Chance 5% -> 11%

Magazine 150/750 Capacity

Range 40 -> 20m

0.15m beam thickness expanding to 3m at end point

Flame passes through all avatars damaging them but will now be stopped by level geometry and require punch through mods to penetrate walls. We had to make some compromises in the base beam functionality to properly have the flame pass through avatars and hit everything like a flamethrower, but punch-through Mods can be used for those who valued it's wall-clearing behaviour.

Quanta

Damage 220 Electricity -> 20 Electricity

Fire Rate 1 -> 12

Status Chance 10% per second - >16%

Critical Chance 10% -> 16%

Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.2x

Magazine 60/540 Capacity

Range 50m -> 40m

Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m

Alt Fire Explosion Damage 400 -> 600

Mastery Rank 7-9

Glaxion

Mastery Rank 6- > 8

Damage 16.6 Cold -> 26 Freeze(??)

Fire Rate 20 -> 12

Status Chance 35% per second -> 34%

Critical Chance 5% -> 8%

Reload Time 1.5secs -> 2.2secs

Magazine 300/1500 -> 80/720 Capacity

Range 24m

.5 Ammo requirement

Ignis Wraith

Mastery Rank 6 -> 9

Damage 25 Heat -> 35 Heat

Fire Rate 10 -> 8

Status Chance 30% per second -> 29%

Critical Chance 12% -> 17%

Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.5x

Magazine 200/800 Capacity

Range 40m -> 27m

0.15m beam thickness expanding to 3m at end point

Flame passes through all avatars damaging them but will now be stopped by level geometry and require punch through mods to penetrate walls. We had to make some compromises in the base beam functionality to properly have the flame pass through avatars and hit everything like a flamethrower, but punch-through Mods can be used for those who valued it's wall-clearing behaviour.

Convectrix

Mastery Rank 3 -> 7

Damage 100 Physical (80% Slash, 10% Puncture, 10% Impact) -> 24 Physical (ISP spread??)

Fire Rate 3 -> 12

Status Chance 25% per second -> 24%

Critical Chance 10% -> 18%

Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.2x

Range 25m -> 30m

Magazine 90/450 -> 120/600 Capacity

Mastery Rank 10-12

Synapse

Mastery Rank 6 -> 11

Damage 12.5 Electricity -> 18 Corrosive

Fire Rate 10 -> 12

Status Chance 10% per second -> 13%

Critical Chance 50% -> 39%

Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.7x

Range 18m -> 19m

Magazine 100/540 -> 70/560 Capacity

.5 Ammo requirement

Amprex

Mastery Rank 5 -> 10

Damage 7.5 Electricity -> 24 Electricity

Fire Rate 20 -> 12

Status Chance 20% per second -> 22%

Critical Chance 50% -> 32%

Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.2x

Range 18m -> 14m

Magazine 100/540 -> 100/700 Capacity

.5 Ammo requirement

Quanta Vandal

Mastery 4 -> ??

Damage 220 Electricity -> 26 Electricity

Fire Rate 1 -> 12

Status Chance 25% per second -> 30%

Critical Chance 10% -> 22%

Critical Damage 2.0x -> 2.4x

Reload 2.0secs -> 1.8 secs

Range 50m

Magazine 90/540 -> 80/560 Capacity

Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m

Alt Fire Explosion Damage 250 -> 600

Phage

Mastery Rank 6 -> 11

Damage 330 Viral -> 30 Viral

Fire Rate 1 -> 12

Status Chance 15% per second -> 31%

Critical Chance 10% -> 19%

Magazine 40/120 -> 170/680 Capacity

Range 25m

 

 

Secondaries

 

Spoiler

 

Mastery Rank 0-3

Gammacor

Damage 50 Magnetic -> 16 Magnetic

Fire Rate 5 -> 12

Status Chance 5% per second -> 20%

Critical Chance 5% -> 8%

Critical Damage 1.5x -> 1.8x

Reload 2.0secs -> 1.4 secs

Range 25m -> 24m

Magazine 50/210 -> 60/240 Capacity

.5 Ammo requirement

Mastery Rank 4-6

Atomos

Mastery Rank 4 -> 5

Fire Rate 5 -> 8

Damage 50 Fire -> 29 Fire

Status Chance 10% per second -> 21%

Critical Chance 5% -> 15%

Critical Damage 1.5x -> 1.7x

Magazine 50/210 -> 70/300 Capacity

Range 15m

Nukor

Fire Rate 5 -> 10

Damage 32 Radiation -> 22 Radiation

Status Chance 20% per second -> 29%

Critical Chance 1% -> 3%

Range 20m -> 21m

.5 Ammo requirement

Spectra

Fire Rate 5 -> 12

Damage 30 Physical (70% Puncture, 20% Slash, 10% Impact) -> 18 Physical (42% Puncture, 58% Slash)

Status Chance 20% per second -> 22%

Critical Chance 5% -> 14%

Reload 2.0secs -> 1.8secs

Magazine 80/360 -> 60/360 Capacity

0.5m Punch Through

Range 15m -> 16m

.5 Ammo requirement

Mastery Rank 7-9

Cycron

Mastery Rank 9 -> 8

Fire Rate 5 -> 12

Damage 60 Heat -> 23 (25% Puncture, 25% Slash, 50% Radiation)

Status Chance 30% per second -> 30%

Critical Chance 5% -> 12%

Critical Damage 1.5x -> 1.8x

Battery Capacity 60, regen delay 1 secs, regen rate 40

Range 20m

1m Punch Through

.5 Ammo requirement

Embolist

Mastery Rank 8 -> 9

Fire Rate 10 -> 8

Damage 18.5 Toxin -> 35 Poison(??)

Status Chance 10% per second -> 41%

Critical Chance 2.5% -> 3%

Reload 1.5secs -> 1.3secs

Range 6m -> 9m

1m Radius at beam end point

.5 Ammo requirement

Synoid Gammacor

Mastery Rank 6 -> 7

Damage 28 Magnetic -> 20 Magnetic

Status Chance 20% per second -> 28%

Critical Chance 10% -> 20%

Reload 2.0secs -> 1.8 secs

Magazine 150/540 -> 80/400 Capacity

Range 25m -> 30m

.5 Ammo requirement

 

Edited by Rekalty
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I see you guys are scared of the 80% Slash weight Flux Rifle.

....I don't blame you.

Edited by Xzorn

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if this is literally the old beam weapons system then holy cow...some old memories come back right now and i actually cant wait how these numbers will turn out ingame. just seeing the new stats on embolist and phage...not to mention ignis w....lovely !

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1 hour ago, Valiant said:

Shows you hardly checked the stats before going off on one. Fairly sure there is a damage buff too. More status would be nice for that freezing bonus proc but we'll see.

Also, comparing the glaxion to Tigris prime makes no sense at all as they're two different weapons. Same goes for tiberon. They aren't beam weapons which have different mechanics.

I mean, have you even tried the glaxion - which has 5 depo - with a decent riven yet? Something tells me you haven't. I have and it's decent. Still having the focus status proc's would have been nice too but oh well. Plus, if you're after crit's or physical proc's, you're looking at the wrong weapon.

Well duh. it's just if those weapons are superior and they all have rivens the odd's of the glaxion ever being needed to be used are probably pretty damn low. 

Haven't even built a glaxion yet AFIK since beam weapons have been useless. 

If you've read any of my posts in this topic you'd clearly see I have no problems in being wrong nor admitting to such. 

Edited by Fire2box

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As some have already asked, what about the Panthera's alt fire? Also, could it get a toggle between the two modes?

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

-snip-

So, let's see (some assumptions will be made)

GENERAL REVIEW:

Positive changes:

  • I assume the current "status/second"-mechanic is going away? If so, that sounds like great news!

Negative changes:

  • Why do you insist on this "damage ramp up" thing? That sounds very unresponsive to me, and keeps similar issues (although much lesser so) to the CURRENT beam-mechanics. Please consider getting rid of this.
  • Range still all quite low in most cases (a few even nerfed)! - This needs another look imo. Less than 25 meters still really doesn't sound like a fun useage of the guns.

Unclear changes:

  • This "0.5 ammo per trace"-thing, does that mean their ammocost/second is halfed (so, a 12 RoF weapon with this bonus only has 6 ammoconsumption per second)? If so... then that's actually really awesome. If that's not what it means... ouch, there goes the ammo-economy out the window!

Onto specific weapon feedback:

Primaries:

Spoiler

Flux Rifle

Overall, this actually seems to become on of the better guns of the bunch (ironically), due to the battery mechanics (especially with such a highly improved rate too). Will it still frequently cut enemies in half and such though? That was part of its morbid fun. If it would help, maybe swap the physical damage ratios?


Ignis + Ignis Wraith

I hope its mechanical changes gives us a real flamethrower, rather than this weird AoE-beam-thing you had going until now. If it's even half as well done as the Killing Floor 1's Flamethrower, I'd be really happy :)
Also, NOT giving these the 0.5 ammo-thingy (as far as I have understood its mechanics at least) seems fair, due to the massive punchthrough it still possesses.


Quanta + Quanta Vandal

Will the secondary fire change more? Hopefully still no selfdamage, yes?
Also, the ammo-economy nerf on these guns seems a little... overkill? Although, I guess that's sort of fair, considering its powerful altfire *shrugs*


Glaxion

Well... at least it's buffed (that's not saying much though).


Convectrix

Considering its wonky mechanics with the splitting laser... why did you (overall) NERF this weapon's ammo economy so harshly? It was already considered garbage. It seems you ignored gimmicks in consideration for balance.
The fact that you DIDN'T give this gun the 0.5 ammo thing, does that mean that there is some hidden strength in multibeam weapons like this? Does it proc status on EACH beam? Still, considering its wonkiness, I think it deserves the 0.5 ammo thing regardless.

Also, that "rampup damage over 0.8 seconds"-thing is gonna make its sweeping gimmick basicly POINTLESS now. Way to overruin this gun :(


Synapse

I like the change to Corrosive. Another alternative would've been to give it the "Battery"-treatment too, so it feels even further distinct from the Amprex. The critchance nerf to 39%... why couldn't you at least leave it at 40% so we can have consistent crits? Is this a deliberate taunt, eh? :D


Amprex

I guess the nerfs in critchance for this gun is totally in order (especially considering the massive economy-buff in contrast to its current state), considering it's chaining effect (which will probably be MUCH more difficult to use now, due to the constant ticking. The old "3 damage-ticks per second", while lackluster on other guns, was actually working in this gun's favour, so it could chain quite decently. Will have to see how it turns out I guess *shrugs*


Phage

Similar to the Convectrix: Tiny buffs, but with a complete gutting to ammo economy, with no consideration or alteration to its currently very clunky mechanics? For example, how about letting the "spread" of the tentacles be memorized? And as such, let the aimbutton be what shrinks the spread, and altfire increases the spread? Just a thought.
I mean, yes, it has good DPS-stats, but in practice most of the other ones still seem to greatly superior.

And, same thoughts for it from me in regards to the "no 0.5 ammo thing" since its a multibeam gun. Some clarity here would definitely be nice (and/or giving it that treatmeant as well, due to the wonkiness it has, unless changed similar to what I suggested for it).


Secondaries:

Spoiler

Gammacor

Making the regular Gammacor an "entry-level" secondary beamgun seems like a good decision to.


Atomos

Still seems to be somewhat ok, even if slightly nerfed in ammo economy. The chaining mechanic hopefully will still work well with the new changes (although it does have some similar risks of being less useful, as mentioned for the Amprex).


Nukor

Pretty big buffs here, nothing to complain about.


Spectra

Doesn't this deserve a BIT more than a little punchthrough as its bonus? It still has that beam-stretch wind-up, no?


Cycron

Niiiice, now THIS seems awesome! Can't wait to get my hands on this.
Question though; With the radical change to its damagetype, will it still autoproc Heat? That was like the only awesome feature it had before, and it'd be a shame to lose that function (although, with those changes, I guess it wouldn't be an all to sad loss)


Embolist

Still a wannabe melee weapon I see? :P
That said, the statchanges look to be rather awesome (although, even if the range was improved, it's still far too low). Will it still have innate Toxic-proc though?

Also, no ammoreserves changed? And/Or is the augment being changed (which currently makes the magazinesize so big it doesn't even allow you to fully reload your whole magazine from the reserves even ONCE!)?
 

Synoid Gammacor

Does it still have a RoF at 15 (which then becomes 7.5 ammoconsumption with the "0.5 ammo bonus"-thing, no?)?
Regardless, seems to be a decent QoL-stat-reallocation to this long forgotten gun.

 

So yeah, overall, sad about Convectrix and Phage (seemingly) becoming bad guns, but happy to see Flux Rifle and Cycron (seemingly) become really awesome guns.

 

Missed beam-trigger weapons:

Operator Beam-amps (Mote and Klebrik)?
Panthera's Buzzsaw Altfire?
The Taxon's Artax?

What about those?

Other thoughts:

How about giving the battery treatment (or at least regenerative ammopool) to a few other guns, which even after the weapon reworks, are somewhat lackluster? Like, for example, the Cestra family of weapons? They are really underwhelming, still, with that MASSIVE recoil and overly long reloadtime.

Edited by Azamagon
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Why not make for Quanta's combined ammunition? For beams (primary attack) make battery-type ammo, but for secondary make 90 ammo and 15 per shot, so you will need to pickup ammo to restore secondary attack.

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Excited to try out the new changes! Ty guys! <3

Not sure how I feel about the changes to ignis, and its wraith counterpart though...

But I'm still looking forward to testing it!

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il y a 9 minutes, Azamagon a dit :

So, let's see (some assumptions will be made)

GENERAL REVIEW:

Positive changes:

  • I assume the current "status/second"-mechanic is going away? If so, that sounds like great news!

Negative changes:

  • Why do you insist on this "damage ramp up" thing? That sounds very unresponsive to me, and keeps similar issues (although much lesser so) to the CURRENT beam-mechanics. Please consider getting rid of this.
  • Range gutting - This really isn't needed. Less than 25 meters really doesn't sound like a fun useage of the guns.

 

all that is needed for the flow is to remove the status of% per second and give the radius of attack of the 50s
 for weapons such as phage to increase the rate of fire

 

but the fact that the developers have shown us not as not happy, I seriously want to use streaming on the plains on the teralers, because all the updates are now associated with them

Edited by ReDllStarS

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Quanta Vandal

Damage 26 Electricity

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 30%

Critical Chance 22%

Critical Damage 2.4x

Reload 1.8 secs

50m Range

Magazine 80/560 Capacity

Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m

Alt Fire Explosion Damage 600

Nerfing the ammo efficiency of my all-time favorite weapon and lowering the clip size to boot? :awe::sadcry: Sure, it gets much higher DPS, but burns through its clip in 6.67 seconds...and that's just the primary fire. Alt fire is going to deal nearly 3 times as much damage...no mention of the ammo cost, so I'm guessing it drains the whole clip in one trigger pull. The 0.2 second faster reload speed isn't even close to making up for this.

Its damage was fine before. I loved this weapon for the incredibly ammo-efficient primary fire. It already melts faces, now it will just burn through its ammo supply insanely fast while doing so. This is exactly what they did to the Synoid Gammacor back in the day, buffed its DPS and slaughtered its ammo-efficiency, and now literally no one uses it. Speaking of which:

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Synoid Gammacor

Mastery Rank 7

Damage 20 Magnetic

Status Chance 28%

Critical Chance 20%

Reload 1.8 secs

Magazine 80/400 Capacity

30m Range

.5 Ammo requirement

I have no idea what this means. Current fire rate is 15 (15 ammo/damage instances per sec)...no fire rate listed here, only ".5 ammo requirement." Does this mean it's keeping the 15 damage instances per sec but halving the ammo cost? The base damage is lowering from 28 to 20, which I can't parse correctly without the new fire rate numbers, but I don't know if twice the crit rate is going to make up for that damage nerf.

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1 hour ago, -Pure said:

What would be the point in showing the weapons...they dont know how to mod them anyway its not like you would actually see how good  they are.

It would let me know if Damage is per particle or if status is also per particle.

Also 4 Status dual stat mods, Hornet Strike, 2 Multishot Mods and Spectra Range Augment (Sequence Beam)

Not asking for a Riven specific build.

Pretty sure Developers are well aware of "Staple" mods or they can even use community Player accounts. Unless you are generalizing that the majority of player accounts used by Devs in stream also do not know how to mod.

Not asking for even a decent build, just clarity to show what I may expect in terms of damage ramp-up, status procs, and general weapon handling changes. (Spectra currently uses 2 ammo to see beam and deal damage. Single tap to consume 1 ammo just wastes that single ammo)*

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Two questions:

- right now, the Embolist's Syndicate mod (Eroding Blight) puts its Magazine size at 300 while keeping its Reserve Ammo at the pistol default of 210, which makes reloading pretty awkard. Any chance of this getting a revisit?

- does multishot affect beam weapons differently now?

Thank you!

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Something that wasn't really touched on here was how multishot works on beam weapons. Currently it just increases damage output rather than spawning new traces with their own status/crit chances. Is this changing at all in the new implementation?

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3 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

You can equip Combustion Beam on Panthera. That's about all the proof I need that it's a beam weapon.

It literally does not fire a beam...

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Sad to see Flux Rifle being on the bottom of the MR list, it was one of the strongest weapons in Damage 1.0. Even more sadder is seeing it going from 80% Slash to 56% Puncture and 44% Slash. 

Flux is mostly Slash (80%) atm, but assuming the WIP info gets a pass it will be Puncture-oriented (56%).

Spectra is mostly Puncture (70%) atm, but will turn into Slash-oriented (58%).

Why all these flips? I really hope you'll change your mind and leave Flux Rifle being a Slash-based weapon. Of course, I need to see it in action first, but I can't say I'm pleased to see this paper-info. That was the only weapon I was eager to get rebalance details about :sad: 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

With such a huge change in behavior, comparing new stats with old is like apples to oranges so they are presented on their own below from our designer

Why bother giving the new stats at all, then, if we have no context in which to make sense of them?

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1 minute ago, KarltheStabber said:

It literally does not fire a beam...

Panthera's secondary fire is a press and hold button which launches a blade 'floating' at target, acting as a beam weapon. With Combustion Beam, you're essentially making its primary fire to be able of doing explosion damage from said mod. Secondary fire is what is referred to "beam weapon". This is indeed odd, but it's what DE made it to be.

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