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Dev Workshop: Beam Weapons Revisited!


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Convectrix still has 70 magazine. Not 120. Consider removing the gimmick of the weapon or accelerating it, not be there when aiming. Trust me the weapon burns through ammo faster than anybody can breath air even with the Ammo pack ability of the Carrier.

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vor 23 Stunden schrieb Kharseth:

So far most of my beam weapon experiments have all been wildly successful, to the point where I'd expect some nerfs.

For reference, I've tried out the Ignis Wraith, Panthera Alt Fire, Glaxion, Amprex, Phage, Embolist, Cycron, Nukor and Synoid Gammacor.

Still working on trying to make the Convectrix and Flux Rifle work tho.

Well what was your result for the Nukor ?

I think the change is making it a really bad weapon now.

It was super niche before but it had its place.

But that change...

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1 hour ago, Landario said:

Well what was your result for the Nukor ?

I think the change is making it a really bad weapon now.

It was super niche before but it had its place.

But that change...

From a DPS standpoint the weapon its supposed to deal more damage and waaaaay more status procs. Aside from that, it shouldnt be changed much, since its almost the same as before with the mechanical changes to all beam weapons.

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10 hours ago, AlendasNaro said:

Convectrix still has 70 magazine. Not 120. Consider removing the gimmick of the weapon or accelerating it, not be there when aiming. Trust me the weapon burns through ammo faster than anybody can breath air even with the Ammo pack ability of the Carrier.

Also, the in-game crit chance, crit damage and status chance do not match the patch notes either. Not really sure what happened but it would be nice to have DE acknowledge the discrepancies in the changes (still not sure if the weapon itself is bugged or not updated properly).

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On 2/21/2018 at 3:02 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

With such a huge change in behavior, comparing new stats with old is like apples to oranges so they are presented on their own below from our designer.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Mastery Rank 4-6

Flux Rifle

Damage 22 Physical (56% Puncture and 44% Slash)

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 24%

Critical Chance 10%

Converted to Battery with 50 capacity, 1 sec recharge delay and 40 regen rate

30m range

0.5m Punch Through

.5 Ammo requirement

Note: Since introducing the Cycron and seeing your thoughts, we're improving battery-based ammunition in this beam revisit including adding it to the Flux Rifle. Flux Rifle's original reload time was 2 seconds. With battery, regen delay approximates to roughly less reload time (just over 1 second) with the added bonus that dodge rolls don't interrupt it.
 

Ignis

Mastery Rank 5

Damage 33 Heat

Fire Rate 8

Status Chance 27%

Critical Chance 11%

Magazine 150/750 Capacity

20m Range

0.15m beam thickness expanding to 3m at end point

Flame passes through all avatars damaging them but will now be stopped by level geometry and require punch through mods to penetrate walls. We had to make some compromises in the base beam functionality to properly have the flame pass through avatars and hit everything like a flamethrower, but punch-through Mods can be used for those who valued it's wall-clearing behaviour.

Quanta

Damage 20 Electricity

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 16%

Critical Chance 16%

Critical Damage 2.2x

Magazine 60/540 Capacity

40m Range

Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m

Alt Fire Explosion Damage 600

Mastery Rank 7-9

Glaxion

Mastery Rank 8

Damage 26 Freeze

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 34%

Critical Chance 8%

Reload Time 2.2secs

Magazine 80/720 Capacity

24m Range

.5 Ammo requirement

Ignis Wraith

Mastery Rank 9

Damage 35 Heat

Fire Rate 8

Status Chance 29%

Critical Chance 17%

Critical Damage 2.5x

Magazine 200/800 Capacity

27m Range

0.15m beam thickness expanding to 3m at end point

Flame passes through all avatars damaging them but will now be stopped by level geometry and require punch through mods to penetrate walls. We had to make some compromises in the base beam functionality to properly have the flame pass through avatars and hit everything like a flamethrower, but punch-through Mods can be used for those who valued it's wall-clearing behaviour.

Convectrix

Mastery Rank 7

Damage 24 Physical

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 24%

Critical Chance 18%

Critical Damage 2.2x

30m Range

Magazine 120/600 Capacity

Mastery Rank 10-12

Synapse

Mastery Rank 11

Damage 18 Corrosive

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 13%

Critical Chance 39%

Critical Damage 2.7x

19m Range

Magazine 70/560 Capacity

.5 Ammo requirement

Amprex

Mastery Rank 10

Damage 24 Electricity

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 22%

Critical Chance 32%

Critical Damage 2.2x

14m Range

Magazine 100/700 Capacity

.5 Ammo requirement

Quanta Vandal

Damage 26 Electricity

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 30%

Critical Chance 22%

Critical Damage 2.4x

Reload 1.8 secs

50m Range

Magazine 80/560 Capacity

Alt Fire Explosion Radius 6m

Alt Fire Explosion Damage 600

Phage

Mastery Rank 11

Damage 30 Viral

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 31%

Critical Chance 19%

Magazine 170/680 Capacity

25m Range

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Mastery Rank 0-3

Gammacor

Damage 16 Magnetic

Fire Rate 12

Status Chance 20%

Critical Chance 8%

Critical Damage 1.8x

Reload 1.4 secs

24m Range

Magazine 60/240 Capacity

.5 Ammo requirement

Mastery Rank 4-6

Atomos

Mastery Rank 5

Fire Rate 8

Damage 29 Fire

Status Chance 21%

Critical Chance 15%

Critical Damage 1.7x

Magazine 70/300 Capacity

15m Range

Nukor

Fire Rate 10

Damage 22 Radiation

Status Chance 29%

Critical Chance 3%

21m Range

.5 Ammo requirement

Spectra

Fire Rate 12

Damage 18 Physical (42% Puncture, 58% Slash)

Status Chance 22%

Critical Chance 14%

Reload 1.8secs

Magazine 60/360 Capacity

0.5m Punch Through

16m Range

.5 Ammo requirement

Mastery Rank 7-9

Cycron

Mastery Rank 8

Fire Rate 12

Damage 23 (25% Puncture, 25% Slash, 50% Radiation)

Status Chance 30%

Critical Chance 12%

Critical Damage 1.8x

Battery Capacity 60, regen delay 1 secs, regen rate 40

20m Range

1m Punch Through

.5 Ammo requirement

Embolist

Mastery Rank 9

Fire Rate 8

Damage 35 Poison

Status Chance 41%

Critical Chance 3%

Reload 1.3secs

9m Range

1m Radius at beam end point

.5 Ammo requirement

Synoid Gammacor

Mastery Rank 7

Damage 20 Magnetic

Status Chance 28%

Critical Chance 20%

Reload 1.8 secs

Magazine 80/400 Capacity

30m Range

.5 Ammo requirement

 

 

With such huge changes, it is precisely why people will want to to compare the stats with the old, regardless of how you guys want to put it across. 

Can't you guys at least have the decency to let us do the comparison stats-wise?

 

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Okay, after careful testing and close scrutiny, I can say without any form of doubt that the Flux Rifle is screwed.

I'm sitting on a pair of Rivens, I've tried everything I could think of build-wise (this includes Flux Overdrive), I've tested with other weapons and with 'Frames in an attempt to find even basic synergies, and I've come up dry.  Flux wildly underperforms it's own build cost, beam ramp-up means that the perfect accuracy is a joke in terms of kill times (better poor accuracy choices like Twin Grakata for headshot seeking), and we're left looking at a weapon that's very notably substandard when compared to basically anything that spits bullets.

Okay, so it's got "infinite ammo", and the battery mechanic isn't as awful now as it's been in the past.  Heck, it's rather solid.  Unfortunately, the Cycron shows us what infinite ammo weapons can actually acheive by vastly improving on the kill time of a lowly Flux.  Cycron's rocking straight-out upgrades basically across the board.  The somewhat shorter range is offset by Cycron rewarding players within that range bracket with solid killing potential.

Flux lacks killing potential.  It isn't a weapon with effectively infinite range hitscan perfect accuracy performance (such as is on many a Sniper, a handful of semi-auto Battle Rifles, and even some PISTOLS).  It's a very short range competitor for a Shotgun, without the benefit of the armor stripping potential, damage, virtual guarantee of headshots, or raw crit seeking.

In fact, the things we have to compare a Flux with are Shotguns, Machine Pistols, and Melee.  It cannot come anywhere near to comparable performance with any of these choices.

If we're supposed to consider a weapon, we must measure it by what it can do (as measuring by looks would be even more disastrous for Flux, given the sheer age of the weapon's model).  As such, we see a weapon that cannot compete with anything in it's own category, outside of Chris the Embolist or the Spectra (neither of which count due to being Secondaries, and more embarrassingly even both outperform Flux).

Look, I get that there will be a "bad gun" in a category of weapons.  That said, many veterans fondly recall Flux when it was worth having and would LOVE to play it again

Here's a compromise: leave Flux be, but bring in a Vandal version with an improved statline.  If I were greedy I'd ask for some form of auto-proc on the Flux as well, and Fire, Radiation or Slash auto-procs would go a LONG way to fixing our Fluxing fun.

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On 21/2/2018 at 4:37 PM, Stoner said:

Right, fair enough. But what about range? Why make it even more tinier than it already is? I feel like it is uncalled for, simply for "balancing" the supposed buffs. 

Aaaand is op af now.

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@DE.Rebecca,

I don't know if it was a related change, but does this mean there is hope of going back to the golden years of actual wall running vs our current wall hopping? I'm assuming that change was also made due to performance issues. 

To this day i still twinge when i see my frame bouncing along the walls, as i miss the ninja grace we used to have...

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Zitat

Beam Weapon behavior was originally changed to help with performance but as we've made optimizations to the game over time, we can return them to their original status of hitscan weapons with pinpoint accurate, zero recoil death machines. Or at least we think we can

So I liked 2 use Ignis Wraith on Saryn .. just 2 pop one spore after another ... just clickin on them t in 0.5 sec intervals --> now it has become impossible in that way.. now i can just hold down fire and do that, but thats a waste of ammunition ^^

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On 2/23/2018 at 10:54 PM, Cytobel said:

-snip-

Truth be told, I'm surprised the Flux Rifle hasn't got a Vandal after all this time, or at least a Prisma.

I would say that auto-slash procs would be a little too strong (and since the Flux is all about Slash, I would say any other procs wouldn't make sense thematically), but a nice compromise would be to simply buff it's Crit to 15% to let it proc more reliably.

I would just hope the Vandal would give it a sightly higher CC and CD with a bit more magazine capacity.

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1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Graysmog said:

Truth be told, I'm surprised the Flux Rifle hasn't got a Vandal after all this time, or at least a Prisma.

I would say that auto-slash procs would be a little too strong (and since the Flux is all about Slash, I would say any other procs wouldn't make sense thematically), but a nice compromise would be to simply buff it's Crit to 15% to let it proc more reliably.

I would just hope the Vandal would give it a sightly higher CC and CD with a bit more magazine capacity.

Oh, I TOTALLY agree that Slash procs sound VERY STRONG.  I could go for a splash of Radiation in the base damage or something, and maybe procs of that, but I don't feel as that's on point thematically.  At the same time I don't want the Flux to step too hard on the Cycron's toes, so to speak.

A Flux Vandal should probably roll out with an improved magazine, recharge rate, skewed damage (probably towards Slash for a Flux), and a drastically improved Status chance if it follows the Vandal model.  A Prisma would roll out with a MUCH larger magazine, high crit stats, and a slightly boosted damage.

I could go for either.  7 Formas in and I'm STRONGLY considering selling the Flux Rifle.  I've had this gun since the days of Rainbow builds...  It's just not currently worth the effort.  Even the recent graphical tweak seemed half-hearted (and totally lop-sided) at BEST.  A bit of metallic detailing, some scuffing, maybe a dent or two...  The gun looks as plastic and without character as it's statline actually leaves it.  Even the Shock Camo Skin is showing it's age.

Eh, I'm worrying so much about this one weapon when we have others to think about...  Guess that just shows how invested some of us are in the ol' Flux Rifles still (*HINT DE HINT*).

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18 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Oh, I TOTALLY agree that Slash procs sound VERY STRONG.  I could go for a splash of Radiation in the base damage or something, and maybe procs of that, but I don't feel as that's on point thematically.  At the same time I don't want the Flux to step too hard on the Cycron's toes, so to speak.

A Flux Vandal should probably roll out with an improved magazine, recharge rate, skewed damage (probably towards Slash for a Flux), and a drastically improved Status chance if it follows the Vandal model.  A Prisma would roll out with a MUCH larger magazine, high crit stats, and a slightly boosted damage.

I could go for either.  7 Formas in and I'm STRONGLY considering selling the Flux Rifle.  I've had this gun since the days of Rainbow builds...  It's just not currently worth the effort.  Even the recent graphical tweak seemed half-hearted (and totally lop-sided) at BEST.  A bit of metallic detailing, some scuffing, maybe a dent or two...  The gun looks as plastic and without character as it's statline actually leaves it.  Even the Shock Camo Skin is showing it's age.

Eh, I'm worrying so much about this one weapon when we have others to think about...  Guess that just shows how invested some of us are in the ol' Flux Rifles still (*HINT DE HINT*).

*shrugs* As long as it gets me through Sorties, I feel the weapon is strong enough.

I can do that with my Seer, so I guess my expectation is a little low, haha.

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Now that I've had a chance to play with it a bit, the new Synapse is definitely more powerful. It is fun to use on most content, but I feel like it still lacks the oomph to reliably use it in level 80+ content, and is absolutely worthless for Eidolons compared to a good sniper. 6 Forma and a good riven too. 

 

All of the beam weapons have a really huge problem in the lack of a long-range shot. I'd like to see a secondary shot that adds some utility and range at the cost of damage, accuracy, or rate of fire. Things like a charge-up that fires a single, heavy beam; an orb that lashes out with tendrils of electricity at whatever it passes; high-ammo cost bolt that explodes on contact; reduced damage low RoF bullet-like effects; or increasing the beam length 200% but reducing damage 50% and eating ammo 50% faster. 

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I really dont like this rampup damage mechanic on beam weapons. Especially on the secondaries that are normally my go to weapons in panic situations.

Theres also the massive problem that nothing in warframe actually lives long enough for a beam weapon to even ramup onto. This is'nt like Destiny 2 where you can take a handfull of hits before dieing. Most mid to high level in warframe youre dead in 1-2 hits. So im totally lost why DE have copied beam weapon mechanics straight from Destiny.

Destiny 2's beam weapons also have much longer effective ranges on thier beam weapons. Which made them viable for targeting distant aerial vehicles. The instant death i experienced pre-rework on most of my weapons like Atomos and Gammacor was quite satisfying especially in bleed out periods. Now they take too long to even have an impact on the enemy.

The problem im finding is that after this rework its taking me longer to kill enemies than it did before. Which is massively disappointing and  lowerd ceiling where  these types of weapons were able to be considered.

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On 2/23/2018 at 10:16 PM, (Xbox One)SweetMadness said:

Could we get a QoL update to the beams while you’re working with them DE and add the beam’s range to the stats?

In a game which has exceptionally detailed stats, Range on beam weapons and Melee weapons is conspicuously absent.

DE pls

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2 hours ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

They made it better. There isn't one beam weapon that got worse because of these changes. Taking away status/sec was a massive buff across the board.

If you have play experience saying that the weapons have been made better across the board that is fair, which beam weapons have you been rocking out that got changed? Perhaps the consoles didn't get the beam changes yet? Could that mean that you are not speaking from any hands-on basis?

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15 hours ago, Urlan said:

If you have play experience saying that the weapons have been made better across the board that is fair, which beam weapons have you been rocking out that got changed? Perhaps the consoles didn't get the beam changes yet? Could that mean that you are not speaking from any hands-on basis?

No, I'm not talking from hands-on basis with the reworked versions, but in using the old versions status/sec holds them back an insane amount. Just watching some videos on the weapons can prove that. Some weapons weren't changed very much stat wise from what I've seen, but the simple fact that it can proc more than one status effect every second is much better.

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18 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

No, I'm not talking from hands-on basis with the reworked versions, but in using the old versions status/sec holds them back an insane amount. Just watching some videos on the weapons can prove that. Some weapons weren't changed very much stat wise from what I've seen, but the simple fact that it can proc more than one status effect every second is much better.

I dont agree here. The rampup damage means even if you proc a status it still takes time for any meaningful damage to occur.

Previously my Phage just needed to look at enemies to die. Now theres an initial pause that feels like the weapons beam isnt even doing anything for half a second.

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