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Future Eidolons need to shift from only 5-6 WFs being efficient choices


(PSN)supersocc11
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I was going to type something long winded, but @SupaFlyWF says it best below.  As players we have such a large and great roster of Warframes, but only a handful of them (healing/damage buffing) can efficiently take out the eidolons in this game mode. all other warframes are just rubico/lanka/opticor/vectis transporters.  I hope that the next large sentient bosses either have a new meta/new set of frames that can efficiently take them down aside from just damage and health buffers, or DE somehow makes it so that all frames are viable options and choices aren't so LIMITED (very difficult task, that's for sure). 

SupaFlyWF

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18 hours ago, Raspberri said:

The underlying issue from this is actually the fact that end-game players are pressured into finding the absolute best efficiency of taking down Eidolons.

I can't speak for all end-game players, but the reason I am pressured toward using only the absolute best way to take down Eidolons is because is the most rewarding way to play.  I've already solo tripled capped the Eidolons in one night, and I'll try it one more time again after this nerf, but the reason I don't do it anymore is because it just isn't rewarding.

The most rewarding way to play is also the least entertaining, which is a big problem for a video game.  Bringing the same frame to the same mission to fight the same scripted boss fight makes you get bored with the game way faster than it should.  Familiar with MMO burnout?  MMOs have the identical nature of forcing you into repetitive content to get the best rewards.  One of the best ways to prevent this burnout is to have multiple characters to play through the same content to vary up your game play.  But Warframe lacks that whole dynamic.  You have all these warframes with all these abilities, but only a handful are actually viable in the end-game scenarios we are presented with.  Eidolons are basically immune to every offensive warframe ability, so for 80% of warframes, you are just the same walking gun.  Really enjoy playing Ember?  Well too bad, she plays no differently than a Atlas in an Eidolon fight.  And the other 20% of warframes provide some kind of insane benefit to damage or survivability that creates this massive rift between having them and not having them.  Put this in a scenario where rewards are uncapped in a very limited time window, and of course you get what you have right now... bad design choices piling up.

Edited by (PS4)supersocc11
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That is how Meta works. Expecting Excalibur to do as much as Chroma is physically impossible. Progression is how it goes. You progress your gear until you have access to the most efficient setup, and then you run with it to extract with the best rewards. There is no problem here.

You are free to play Eidolons however you want, but you can't get mad when you take much longer than others.

Edited by --Q--Voltage
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Let's see, for eidolons there are quite a few options as i see it:

Trinity

Oberon

Chroma 

Harrow

Volt

Banshee 

Rhino

Equinox

Octavia

Okay i guess that's only 9 efficient options but honestly you could run it with any frame with a good sniper rifle, opticor, or arca plasmore, or even a decently modded pistol.

If you are using a suboptimal frame though you probably aren't going to be helping your group much.  This is why you stick to the frames on my list above for this fight.  Tbh there are alot of self centric frames that don't help the team much except put out lots of dps or have unbalanced survability, inaros, excalibur, valkyr, saryn, ember, and wukong to name a few.  Theres nothing wrong with.them, its just they aren't really good for this particular fight. 

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Just now, K2k4 said:

Let's see, for eidolons there are quite a few options as i see it:

Trinity

Oberon

Chroma 

Harrow

Volt

Banshee 

Rhino

Equinox

Octavia

Okay i guess that's only 9 efficient options but honestly you could run it with any frame with a good sniper rifle, opticor, or arca plasmore, or even a decently modded pistol.

If you are using a suboptimal frame though you probably aren't going to be helping your group much.  This is why you stick to the frames on my list above for this fight.  Tbh there are alot of self centric frames that don't help the team much except put out lots of dps or have unbalanced survability, inaros, excalibur, valkyr, saryn, ember, and wukong to name a few.  Theres nothing wrong with.them, its just they aren't really good for this particular fight. 

It'd be nice if there was an eidolon that took completely different strategies and abilities to fight against though.  One with loads of stronger adds.  One with a laser targeted focus on a single player with an aggro system.  These sort of things could diversify.

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2 hours ago, K2k4 said:

Let's see, for eidolons there are quite a few options as i see it:

Banshee 

You know, it's just a nitpick, but I'm sort of surprised by this inclusion in the list. What does Banshee add to an eidolon hunt? As far as I know, her sonar can't apply to the eidolon since it's immune to pretty much all ability effects, and... That... seems like the only thing she WOULD have. Silence and soundquake definitely aren't going to be doing favors.

Am I wrong and you CAN sonar Terry and his brothers?

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Re oviscaedo

It was added under the assumption sonar can work on eidolon.  Tbh i haven't tried it myself, but i heard it mentioned on a guide a while back (possibly inacutate tbh).

Regardless i think it should work, even if it doesn't. 

 

 

Edited by K2k4
Forgot to quote respondee
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Then every frame would have to be made into a generic power set with a 1 for minor damage, 2 for buff, 3 for heals and 4 for something needed always like CC immunity. There will always be a frame or a group of frames more suited to a given task. It's why you don't pick a frame at the beginning and play through the entire game with it. The frame is as much a choice in your loadout for a mission as the guns or the melee weapon you pick.

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Here's an idea using the Birdalyst that could improve the meta

 

 

When flying, a player needs to get to a giant anti-air cannon that will knock it out of the air. Once grounded, players can then proceed to knock away shields with operators.

Any frame could do, especially with Archwing, but a faster-moving frame such as Zephyr, Nova, Volt, and Nezha can get there fast without an Archwing

 

Launches a ball of energy that needs to be shot at. It can only take a certain amount of damage per second from each player, requiring each player to be shooting it together. Once the damage cap is reached, the energy ball is launched back at the Birdalyst, dealing damage. 

Can be done with pretty much any weapon, and more importantly any frame. Needs team communication to have every teammate firing at this together ASAP

 

 If Birdalyst is alerted by a player, it will focus on it and fire a volley of bullets that, if hit by, will damage your warframe, allowing it to be downed, even if the player is in Operator mode

This would help remove a bit of Operator cheese by forcing us to take care in the positioning of our frames and encourage some defensive/stealthy options such as Ivara, Loki, Limbo, Frost, etc, or to just tank the phase with Rhino, Chroma, Wukong, etc.

 

 

 

While maybe not perfect, I think this is the kind of direction Eidolon Raids should be going. Every frame can be used, especially with teamwork. No frame can "fast forward" the fight by dealing as much damage as possible at once. Other frame types have uses as well, such as stealthy, defensive, and mobile kits.

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I think the problem here is very clear:

  • devs copy pasted entire teralyst mechanic (no intention to do anything about the meta groups);
  • the hydrolyst caps are not limited per/night (this promotes same meta groups to be formed and thrive).

If either of mentioned points would be false we would have hole different results.

Since so much attention is trown to new players experience, Meta > undergeared new player trying to get into Hydrolist cap group. Once pour guy actually makes to the groups, soon he realises what chore it is this farming.

I only guessing this meta works agains new player experience, that should be Red Flag for developers, and a signal that something should be changed! Something about the meta!

ps just a wild guess i could be wrong.

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I kinda actually like that only a few are super effective at taking them down, but would hope that future large scale bosses have other frames that'll be effective against them instead. That way you actually have to make a build and setup against every fight. It's cool to have differentiation among such fights. 

 

Sooooo I think what you're saying. :p

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Just to add, I was and am not suggesting the fix for this is to make every warframe useful in every situation.  In fact, that only adds to the problem of repetitive content if playing one frame feels no different than playing another.  Am I suggesting that there are huge scaling issues that make it near impossible to not play the "how do I trivialize this content" game?  Absolutely.

It is along those lines that I disagree with the Kavat nerf, and would disagree with any kind of Focus ability nerfs, at least before addressing some of the bigger scaling issues.  If a player works to get the genetic codes, forma their Kavat to Eidolon-fighting shape, farm their focus, etc, they should be able to bring these advantages with them to the Eidolon fights.  But why concern yourself first with a 50% uptime, 60% crit chance buff when Chroma has an unmodded 275% weapon damage buff easily available?  How do you expect to ever be able to design content around increases like that?  The answer is you can't (or you can't without creating another scaling mess that is the enemy scaling system in Warframe). This just causes the nerf to the Kavat buff to come off as nothing but a really lazy attempt to address the bigger scaling problem.

One point specifically about the Eidolon fights about why I feel even more pushed into playing the "trivialize this content" game is because of their design.  The "remove the shields" part is unnecessarily long and boring.  Not really because they require you to do some kind of unreasonably large amount of damage, but because you do it while being basically invulnerable.  You have a 0 cooldown, low resource invulnerability button that negates every single damaging ability, and even if you do "die" as your operator, there is basically no penalty (your near-invulnerable warframe pays a 10% hitpoint loss or whatever).  Meanwhile, the warframe part of the fight (killing the Eidolon parts) is over so fast thanks to all the crazy damage scaling available (passive abilities, group buffs, rivens, etc) that the whole fight becomes very monotonous.

The only strategy I have seen work on this issue in Warframe is to disincentivize the playing of the "trivialize this content" game.  Probably an un-popular opinion, but the easiest step I would have taken in this matter would be to alleviate the time pressure.  Similar to Trial's having a cooldown, I would have make it so the main Eidolon rewards (ie. arcanes) were available through the bounties only once per night.  Reward normalization on content does things like 1) reduces burnout from feeling compelled to do the same content over and over as quickly as possible, 2) removes incentive to play the content in only the "best" way possible in order to maximize #1, and 3) reduces frustration with other players that do not share your mindset regarding #1 or #2.  When I look at Sorties and imagine what they would be like if they could be run over and over for Rivens without limit, I am extremely thankful that my sanity doesn't have to deal with that.  But probably too late for the Earth Eidolons now, maybe next time.

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8 hours ago, K2k4 said:

Let's see, for eidolons there are quite a few options as i see it:

Trinity

Oberon

Chroma 

Harrow

Volt

Banshee 

Rhino

Equinox

Octavia

Okay i guess that's only 9 efficient options but honestly you could run it with any frame with a good sniper rifle, opticor, or arca plasmore, or even a decently modded pistol.

If you are using a suboptimal frame though you probably aren't going to be helping your group much.  This is why you stick to the frames on my list above for this fight.  Tbh there are alot of self centric frames that don't help the team much except put out lots of dps or have unbalanced survability, inaros, excalibur, valkyr, saryn, ember, and wukong to name a few.  Theres nothing wrong with.them, its just they aren't really good for this particular fight. 

Add Ivara to that list. Idk how they built it, but in a random squad someone destroyed each limb in 1 or 2 shots with artemis bow.

Also what would Banshee's role be?

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It would be nice if DE  designed fights to give all types of powers a job to do. 

A boss with phases that consideres different things. High damage, defense, mobs, cc, dot, mobility.

I know it much easier said than done though. There will always be a meta. 

A potentially bad idea, would be giving less popular frames a disposition rating against bosses. Using these high disposition frames grants better rng, or maybe even a damage boost, or some advantage. Maybe they can say a boss "learns" how to better defend itself against meta frames, thus less used frames are given a damage boost. Maybe it could be a dynamic disposition controlled by community popularity of frames used against the boss. This way recruiting may look like this " looking for a Atlas for increased RNG" or "looking for a Equinox for +team damage" or " Ember for weakened hydrolyst shield" 

 

...I don't know. Doubt DE even blinks at any of these ideas.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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9 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Future eidolons need to not be

We've had the Teralyst, then we had it's big brothers, and apparently some sort of creepy birdalyst-thing is coming. That's enough, DE. We get it. Move on now. 

We're only preparing for what's actually coming you realize.

lRmOYdu.jpg

 

Eidolons are gonna be the least of our worries

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10 hours ago, K2k4 said:

Let's see, for eidolons there are quite a few options as i see it:

Trinity

Oberon

Chroma 

Harrow

Volt

Banshee 

Rhino

Equinox

Octavia

Okay i guess that's only 9 efficient options but honestly you could run it with any frame with a good sniper rifle, opticor, or arca plasmore, or even a decently modded pistol.

If you are using a suboptimal frame though you probably aren't going to be helping your group much.  This is why you stick to the frames on my list above for this fight.  Tbh there are alot of self centric frames that don't help the team much except put out lots of dps or have unbalanced survability, inaros, excalibur, valkyr, saryn, ember, and wukong to name a few.  Theres nothing wrong with.them, its just they aren't really good for this particular fight. 

Don't forget your favorite memelord limbo. He's arguably better than Harrow.

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The only reasons we don't  run "Meta" LoR  groups now (speaking for my group, not the community as a whole) is that they are limited to 1 per day, and running a non-meta setup takes only a few minutes longer than running a meta group .  Since there is not much point speed running it (I mean going for 14min times instead of 18min times) we run frames we have fun with - zephyr, chroma, inaros, titania, whatever.  

If we had 60 minutes to run as many as we could for a reward, we'd only be running meta all the time.  We dont have the new ones on console but back when we actually needed something from the terralyst, we did as many as we could as fast as we could with the best setup for efficiency we could muster.

So long as the eidolons are 'farmable', the community will exclusively gravitate to the meta.

That said, I do wish they could come up with some boss mechanics that could add variety be it crowd control, stealth, puzzles, whatever.  I have no answer, but bullet sponge bosses isn't it.

 

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I agree with your points although I think another big issue is the night cycle being so short. If night lasted significantly longer, or you could extend it by some means, it would lessen the pressure to bring the meta frames and weapons and shift it toward bringing what you want. There will always be min/maxers and that's fine but extending the time allowed to capture Eidolons I believe could be a band-aid fix to the situation. The far larger problem is that the fights themselves (and future "endgame boss" battles) need to be designed so that more Warframes can shine rather than the select few we have at the moment. I really hope DE takes a good hard look at this. 

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On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 6:31 PM, Madway7 said:

Add Ivara to that list. Idk how they built it, but in a random squad someone destroyed each limb in 1 or 2 shots with artemis bow.

I'll tell you a little secret about that.  Just don't gimp your Power Strength.  Mod your primary for damage and one multishot mod.  It's really that simple.  :smile: 

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