Change Elemental Damage

[R3leaZ]

Since people were interested in this idea in another thread. I will give it its own thread.

Instead of adding another pure damage number. Let the elemental damage be a multiplier for the current damage output of the weapon and add a debuff that will balance out this nerf to damage. I'd like this only if armor stops scaling though + a complete rebalance of enemies due to this change. This game is way too simple, it needs more advanced mechanics.

Elemental Modifier - Shock (CC/Damage balanced):

It will make enemies spasm initially, while chaining to multiple enemies with reduced damage through each chain . Chains passes the debuff on to the chained target minus the extra chains. Electrical damage tampers with the energy weapons and systems from the Corpus faction, buffing firerate but massively reducing accuracy while also adding a chance that they will need to reload prematurely due to battery failure.

Debuff:
- Duration: 2/2.2/2.4/2.6/2.8/3 seconds
- Initial spasm duration: 0.2/0.2/0.2/0.3/0.3/0.4 seconds (Chained enemies are stunned for half the duration)
- Chains affecting: 1/1/1/2/2/3 targets per second
- Chain damage (Based on weapon base damage): 32/36/40/44/46/50 % of previous target/chain rounded down affected by armor.
- Chain debuff duration: 1 second
- Energy weapons only: Firerate buff: 15 %
- Energy weapons only: Accuracy debuff: 55/60/65/70/75/80 %
- Energy weapons only: Chance of battery failure per bullet fired by enemy: 5 %

Not stackable from a single weapon, 2 weapons will stack the damage output of the debuff though not the effects. Example: Weapon 1 does 25 damage and weapon 2 also does 25 damage, together that would be 50 damage thus the initial chain damage at max rank would do 25 damage, the 2nd chain 12 and the last chain 6. Debuff gets refreshed with every bullet but the debuff damage output from two weapons won't sustain if the other weapon stops shooting. (It's like having 2 times the debuff on a single target with their own duration but single time effects of the debuff.) Debuff consists of 2 variants: With additional chains or without additional chains (Chain debuff).

Damage multipliers:
- 180/184/188/192/196/200 % Corpus rounded down.
- 100 % Grineer
- 71/71/71/73/73/75 % Infested rounded up.

Effects on bosses:
- Spasms don't last as long: 0.2 seconds at all ranks.

WIP - Elemental Modifier - Fire (Damage focused):

It would make the enemies panic making them lose accuracy and give them a chance to try turning off the fire stopping the debuff upon completion of the animation. They also lose health at a steady rate. The enemies would also scream/yell/roar alerting enemies nearby to make this less desirable for stealth.

 

Debuff:

- Duration: is 3/3/3/4/4/5 seconds.

- Accuracy debuff: 20%

- Chance of turning off fire depends on enemy type.

- Loss of health per second based on percentage of base weapon damage: 60/64/68/72/76/80% affected by armor to normal enemies, ignores armor vs infested.

 

Not stackable from a single weapon. Works the same as shock with this. Alerts nearby enemies.

 

Multipliers:

140/142/144/146/148/150 % Infested. Negates organic armor from infested
90 % Corpus
90 % Grineer

 

Effects on bosses:

DoT and Duration are both halved.

WIP - Elemental Modifier - Freeze (CC focused):

It would make the enemies slow down in percentages. 3/3/3/4/4/5 % slow per bullet that last for 1/1/1/2/2/3 seconds per stack. Having multiple freeze on your team or very high firerate would be a lot more effective and make it possible to 100% slow an enemy down (stop them in their tracks and make them completely defenseless). Having enemies slowed at 100% would give them a chance of 10% to take bonus damage of 125/200/275/350/425/500 % (armor ignoring though shields need to be down) that could "shatter" them, this does not apply to bosses though since they cannot be slowed past 20%.

Multipliers:
500 % Shields
75 % all enemies
Bosses, freeze would be capped at max 20% slow for bosses

WIP - Elemental Modifier - AP:

Make the bullets 75%/80%/85%/90%/95%/100% penetrate/negate armor while also damaging armor rating slightly per bullet (Capped at 25% armor, won't go lower). Lowers the stagger chance of the weapon significantly. Due to armor piercing bullets having less impact on enemies it will lower the damage of the weapon.

Multipliers:
110% Grineer
90% Corpus (Exception of head)
90% Infested, organic armor regenerates back to 100% at an average rate.
Bosses. Armor rating doesn't go down as fast in contrast to normal enemies and is capped at 40% instead of 25%. 

Elemental damage variants are NOT stackable with others (Excluding AP and mods of the same variant example: Blaze and Incendiary Coat though I haven't tried to balance those yet so...). No more rainbow bullets. Or non-logical combinations (Example: Freezing fire)

Combining AP with the respective elemental will combine the multipliers.

Example:
AP + Fire will make fighting infested less effective (damage wise) in contrast to if you would only use fire, though the DoT, armor bypass and reduction of armor rating would all apply, having fire alone would still be a lot more effective though vs infested.
AP + Freeze would make fighting each enemy type less effective (Damage wise) in contrast to if you had only AP though both the slow and armor reduction will be added.

Updated shock and fire elemental. Others are in queue. Feel free to suggest balance ideas for shock. Others aren't done yet.

Edited August 13, 2013 by R3leaZ

[WondahBoah]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/87180-re-doing-elemental-mods-and-resistances/#entry958734

 

check my old thread out.

 

take what you like from it

[DiabolusUrsus]

I think this looks good, but Electric damage is still in a weird place compared with the other two. Fire has damage over time going for it, and freeze has a more reliable crowd control mechanic, so I'd say replace the spasming (except the first bullet) and replace it with random jumps to nearby enemies.

That way fire provides flexible damage that can be spread over a crowd or focus down a single target, freeze is the do-it-all crowd control element with shield damage as a bonus and electricity focuses on taking down multiple targets at a time.

[PaperAlien]

Electric damage should tamper with enemy weapons, reducing firerate/damage/accuracy etc.

[NalkorRN]

Since people were interested in this idea in another thread. I will give it its own thread.

 

Instead of adding another pure damage number. Let the elemental damage have its own multiplier for the current damage output of the weapon and at the same time add a debuff that will balance out this nerf to damage.

 

Elemental Damage - Shock: would make enemies spasm initially (Not every bullet that lands would cause an initial spasm because that would be OP, only the first one that causes the debuff) and make them randomly spasm multiple times for the duration of the shock (5 seconds) while also doing minor damage each time they spasm. The spasms would make them completely stop from doing anything they were doing at the moment for the duration of the spasm (0.2 to 0.5 seconds per spasm). Shock debuff does not stack time gets reset though everytime a bullet lands.

 

Damage multiplier: 

2x Corpus

1x Grineer

0.8x Infested,

1x bosses, duration of the spasms is lower (0.1 to 0.2 seconds)

 

Elemental Damage - Fire: would make the enemies panic making them lose accuracy, small chance for them to stop what they were doing at the moment to try putting the fire off (Chance is smaller than the random shock spasms), They also lose health at a steady rate. DoT is affected by armor and does not stack while being more effective vs Infested. The enemies would also scream/yell/roar alerting enemies nearby to make this less desirable for stealth.

 

Multipliers: 

2x Infested

0.9x Grineer/Corpus

1x bosses, won't stop trying to turn off fire, DoT does only half the damage.

 

Elemental Damage - Freeze: would make the enemies slow down in percentages. Stackable. 5% slow per bullet that last for 1-3 seconds per stack. minimally 20 bullets that land within this duration would make an enemy stop dead in its tracks not being able to do anything at all with bosses being an exception. Teamplay would help completely stopping enemies in their tracks.

 

Multipliers:

3x Shields

0.75x all enemies

1x Bosses and freeze would be capped at max 20% slow for bosses

 

Elemental Damage - AP: Make the bullets 100% penetrate armor at max level while also damaging armor rating gradually per bullet. Lowers the stagger chance of the weapon significantly.

 

Multipliers:

2x Grineer

1x Corpus

0.8x Infested

1x Bosses, armor rating doesn't go down as fast in contrast to normal enemies.

 

Elemental damage variants are NOT stackable with others (Excluding AP). No more rainbow bullets. Or non-logical combinations (Example: Freezing fire)

 

Combining AP with the respective elemental will combine the multipliers. Example: AP + Fire will make fighting infested less effective (damage wise) in contrast to if you would only use fire, though the DoT and reduction of armor rating would both apply. AP + Freeze would make fighting each enemy type less effective (Damage wise) in contrast to if you had only AP though both the slow and armor reduction will be added.

 

Balance suggestions are welcome.

So if I use Accelerated Blast + Blaze + Flechette + Point Blank + Incendiary Coat, I can get all the fire damage to do the full +150% damage because of my +150% AP damage? If not, then no.

[LasersGoPewPew]

So if I use Accelerated Blast + Blaze + Flechette + Point Blank + Incendiary Coat, I can get all the fire damage to do the full +150% damage because of my +150% AP damage? If not, then no.

he said the elemental damage doesn't stack in his post.

[NalkorRN]

he said the elemental damage doesn't stack in his post.

Then F*** no, his idea can go straight to hell.

[AdmiralAvalanche]

have electricity give a small portion of the base weapon dmg (50%) jump towards a target near to the one you shot in the form of chain lightning

as fire offers the panic feature and a dot so shocking may want to offer something other than just spasms

Edited August 10, 2013 by AdmiralAvalanche

[NalkorRN]

have electricity give a small portion of the base weapon dmg (50%) jump towards a target near to the one you shot in the form of chain lightning

as fire offers the panic feature and a dot so shocking may want to offer something other than just spasms

The main reason I'm against this is because it still leaves AP damage as the only workable element in higher levels by effectively bypassing the enemy resists when maxed out. I'd love to use rainbow bullets if Light Infested weren't effectively immune to Fire damage at high enough levels. If I mod a weapon for maximum damage using all elements, then I should be able to get all that damage. Effective HP is what already kills off rainbow bullets. Why the OP can't see that, I have no idea. He's trading one system where AP rules over all in high levels for another system where AP rules over all in high level missions. Is that what he proposed? No, it's not, but I sure as hell doubt DE has the ability to pull it off exactly like he wants and enemies will somehow still end up with insane amounts of armor in high levels.

[R3leaZ]

Then F*** no, his idea can go straight to hell.

 

Everything in this game is susceptible to change. Don't ask me how I felt when I lost all my mods during Update 7. In the end it's for the greater good. Once armor doesn't scale ridiculously anymore I'm sure a lot of balance would happen.

 

 

The main reason I'm against this is because it still leaves AP damage as the only workable element in higher levels by effectively bypassing the enemy resists when maxed out. I'd love to use rainbow bullets if Light Infested weren't effectively immune to Fire damage at high enough levels. If I mod a weapon for maximum damage using all elements, then I should be able to get all that damage. Effective HP is what already kills off rainbow bullets. Why the OP can't see that, I have no idea. He's trading one system where AP rules over all in high levels for another system where AP rules over all in high level missions. Is that what he proposed? No, it's not, but I sure as hell doubt DE has the ability to pull it off exactly like he wants and enemies will somehow still end up with insane amounts of armor in high levels.

 

 

Obviously enemies would get a rebalance after all this. When making major changes you can't just leave some things without change.

 

EDIT: Adjusting balance.

Edited August 10, 2013 by R3leaZ

[NalkorRN]

Everything in this game is susceptible to change. Don't ask me how I felt when I lost all my mods during Update 7. In the end it's for the greater good. Once armor doesn't scale ridiculously anymore I'm sure a lot of balance would happen.

 

 

 

 

Obviously enemies would get a rebalance after all this. When making major changes you can't just leave some things without change.

 

EDIT: Adjusting balance.

I don't quite trust DE's ideas of balancing things, hence why I'd rather the elemental damages remain able to stack. Let them rebalance enemies first to see how it compares to the EHP stuff. If someone wants rainbow bullets, let them. Myself, I stopped using rainbow bullets aside from AP + Freeze to slow enemies down when using weapons like Despair, Boltor, or to just give myself time in general, like if a Toxic Ancient spawns around a corner and tries to hug me.

[R3leaZ]

I don't quite trust DE's ideas of balancing things, hence why I'd rather the elemental damages remain able to stack. Let them rebalance enemies first to see how it compares to the EHP stuff. If someone wants rainbow bullets, let them. Myself, I stopped using rainbow bullets aside from AP + Freeze to slow enemies down when using weapons like Despair, Boltor, or to just give myself time in general, like if a Toxic Ancient spawns around a corner and tries to hug me.

 

"...If a Toxic Ancient spawns around a corner..." I remember again why I love Frost's Freeze xD

[R3leaZ]

Updated shock elemental, others are to come in the future.

Edited August 11, 2013 by R3leaZ

[taiiat]

this sounds really interesting, but.... i do love my rainbow bullets. especially on melee's, i've often thrown all the elementals on just because it looks cool. 

 

i'm not sure how i feel about damage stacking being removed. i think that's something i'd like to be able to be kept in the game. 

having fire and ice at the same time is illogical, but that's why i like it :(

we can always resort to justifying silly things like fire/ice bullets with 'space ninjas'. 

 

 

Is that what he proposed? No, it's not, but I sure as hell doubt DE has the ability to pull it off exactly like he wants and enemies will somehow still end up with insane amounts of armor in high levels.

you need to give a developer the benefit of the doubt if you expect anything to get done. good ideas shouldn't be shot down because it's not an overall improvement just by itself. nobody said changes like these should or need to come before enemy scaling is reworked. 

so if we presume enemy scaling is redone before this is implemented, then that changes everything.

 

 

 

also, someone suggested poison damage to be a thing in mods, and i'd like to see that as well. 

presumingly it keeps it's armor ignoring traits, but would be a good bit less powerful than other elementals due to that. so not that amazing damage, but reliable. as for other side effects, not sure.

maybe an enemy hit with a bullet that has poison damage on it would become similar to a toxic ancient? so any enemy in that is in close proximity to it would take small damage ticks. stacking with others, so large groups sprayed with poison damage would all damage tick each other, and would be most of the souce benefit from poison damage, the damage on impact being relatively small. 

so then, if poison damage was like, 40% at most of the weapons' base damage, the impact from say, a Latron(good medium power example weapon), would deal 18dmg of poison on impact, and if.. the DoT ticks to other enemies was, 15%? that would be 6.75dmg, rounded either way(probably down). 

on early level enemies this then would be quite powerful (then again, everything is! lol). later level enemies this would definitely be acceptable levels of damage, considering it's Armor Ignoring. 

with other enemies around, let's say in a relatively close group of 10 enemies, and we'll say 7 of them are close enough together to DoT each other, 47.25 dmg/s to each enemy while they are near each other. actually, that's kind've a lot. maybe the DoT scaling should be 10%. 

then again, i am using a higher powered weapon as an example for this, most automatic weapons wouldn't be doing damage like this.

 

however though, even with the lower damage of say, a braton, if you shot an enemy dozens of times, this would become a problem, since i'm imagining the damage to stack like other poison weapons already do. 

that being the cast, the DoT can just always be a flat 1dmg, lol. and have the initial impact more signifigant to keep it viable. (the 1dmg ticks could even have a lowish but decent chance to stun for 1 second?).

Edited August 11, 2013 by taiiat

[NalkorRN]

"...If a Toxic Ancient spawns around a corner..." I remember again why I love Frost's Freeze xD

I took it off since everyone else just shot them up and I ended up wasting energy. If it did zero damage but kept them frozen for a set duration, I'd have kept it in. Of course it'd just slow down bosses instead of freezing them solid. I'd also prefer it if Freeze was an instant-travel small aoe freeze so you could freeze a close Toxic by aiming near it's feet.

[NalkorRN]

this sounds really interesting, but.... i do love my rainbow bullets. especially on melee's, i've often thrown all the elementals on just because it looks cool. 

 

i'm not sure how i feel about damage stacking being removed. i think that's something i'd like to be able to be kept in the game. 

having fire and ice at the same time is illogical, but that's why i like it :(

we can always resort to justifying silly things like fire/ice bullets with 'space ninjas'. 

 

 

you need to give a developer the benefit of the doubt if you expect anything to get done. good ideas shouldn't be shot down because it's not an overall improvement just by itself. nobody said changes like these should or need to come before enemy scaling is reworked. 

so if we presume enemy scaling is redone before this is implemented, then that changes everything.

 

 

 

also, someone suggested poison damage to be a thing in mods, and i'd like to see that as well. 

presumingly it keeps it's armor ignoring traits, but would be a good bit less powerful than other elementals due to that. so not that amazing damage, but reliable. as for other side effects, not sure.

maybe an enemy hit with a bullet that has poison damage on it would become similar to a toxic ancient? so any enemy in that is in close proximity to it would take small damage ticks. stacking with others, so large groups sprayed with poison damage would all damage tick each other, and would be most of the souce benefit from poison damage, the damage on impact being relatively small. 

so then, if poison damage was like, 40% at most of the weapons' base damage, the impact from say, a Latron(good medium power example weapon), would deal 18dmg of poison on impact, and if.. the DoT ticks to other enemies was, 15%? that would be 6.75dmg, rounded either way(probably down). 

on early level enemies this then would be quite powerful (then again, everything is! lol). later level enemies this would definitely be acceptable levels of damage, considering it's Armor Ignoring. 

with other enemies around, let's say in a relatively close group of 10 enemies, and we'll say 7 of them are close enough together to DoT each other, 47.25 dmg/s to each enemy while they are near each other. actually, that's kind've a lot. maybe the DoT scaling should be 10%. 

then again, i am using a higher powered weapon as an example for this, most automatic weapons wouldn't be doing damage like this.

 

however though, even with the lower damage of say, a braton, if you shot an enemy dozens of times, this would become a problem, since i'm imagining the damage to stack like other poison weapons already do. 

that being the cast, the DoT can just always be a flat 1dmg, lol. and have the initial impact more signifigant to keep it viable. (the 1dmg ticks could even have a lowish but decent chance to stun for 1 second?).

I want to give DE the benefit of the doubt, but after all the stuff I've seen since the market changes and all in-game avatars costing platinum only (before you could buy two for 10k credits or so), I've just lost faith in them. I have yet to see proper Mastery Rewards, like namely extra Weapon/Frame slots.

[Fundance]

I really don't want this system because I like seeing a lot of numbers fly out of a target. It's one of those videogame things that's really satisfying and makes up a huge part of Warframe's 'feel' to me. It brings me back to the good old days of Rangarok Online. there's just something inherently fun about watching numbers spew out of a target.

Allow it to pop out a unique damage numbers by default, and perhaps give players the option to 'unify' damage numbers in system options, but please don't make elemental damage modify base damage into a single number. visually anyway.

[R3leaZ]

I really don't want this system because I like seeing a lot of numbers fly out of a target. It's one of those videogame things that's really satisfying and makes up a huge part of Warframe's 'feel' to me. It brings me back to the good old days of Rangarok Online. there's just something inherently fun about watching numbers spew out of a target. Allow it to pop out a unique damage numbers by default, and perhaps give players the option to 'unify' damage numbers in system options, but please don't make elemental damage modify base damage into a single number. visually anyway.

 

Not all people have that opinion though. I'm more neutral about it. I do like the sight of seeing tons of damage flying of a target but it can go that far that it obstructs view completely at range. I prefer having more visual feedback how much damage I am doing. Like more blood coming out? Or when non-gore you see bullet impacts harder or softer.

[R3leaZ]

Updated fire. Still need help with the balance xD

[Thaumatos]

I really don't want this system because I like seeing a lot of numbers fly out of a target. It's one of those videogame things that's really satisfying and makes up a huge part of Warframe's 'feel' to me. It brings me back to the good old days of Rangarok Online. there's just something inherently fun about watching numbers spew out of a target. Allow it to pop out a unique damage numbers by default, and perhaps give players the option to 'unify' damage numbers in system options, but please don't make elemental damage modify base damage into a single number. visually anyway.

Have you been living under a rock since Ragnarok Online? Every single RPG has a bunch of numbers flying out of the target.

Most of the time you don't get to see them anyway unless you're the host of the game. So who really cares.