An old mechanic (well, bug) that's outlived its usefulness and is killing my favorite frame (Nova)

[Ace4225]

I'm probably gonna get some flak for this post, but w/e. What needs to be said needs to be said:

At this point, something needs to be done about "speed-Nova."

Now before anyone assumes I just don't know what I'm talking about; I've been a Nova fan since her release and mained her for the last few years. I've built 4 Novas and I've tried every conceivable build for her. I've brought Nova to every game type, every challenge, raid, boss fight (except Eidolons where she's currently useless, but I even tried her once there, only to discover that she's useless and I became sad...) etc. I regularly outDPS Embers and Mesas with my Nova(s). (Alright, enough bragging)

I also was among those who enjoyed the fun mechanic of speeding up enemies using negative power strength back when it was first discovered -- a bug that DE was about to patch out before players pleaded to have it kept in -- since back then, infested weren't as scary as they are now (chargers didn't have spitballs and there was no such thing as Mutilist Ospreys or .. whatever those tar-spitting ones are called again) and Nova was still a popular, fairly well-understood frame.

Now she isn't... I rarely see anyone using more than her 4th skill if I see Novas running around at all. I've even had people try to tell me that Nova is "only good for low-to-mid tier CC" and other nonsense. ( Clearly they weren't around for the Ambulas Reborn event when I was outDPSing Mesa and killing lvl 150+ Ambulas with my Nova.) She seems to be one of the most underrated and misunderstood frames in the current player base, and this leads me to my concerns:

- Speed-Nova is now more troll than useful
    Everyone knows Hydron is where power-leveling is at... and yet many Nova players insist on bringing this build there, where most public players are bringing leveling gear, and it's Grineer. People have actually been led to believe this is a good idea... yet every time I'm with a speed-Nova, half the team is going down frequently. (Huh, maybe speeding up trigger-happy Grineer isn't the best idea?) At best, the team can just make it to 10-15 waves without major problems (IF the majority of the team was ready for focus farming and not leveling up fresh gear) but this is luck-of-the-matchmake.

- People seem to think this makes the game progress faster
    I used to believe in speed-Nova, and when I did, I tried many scenarios using a regular positive-strength build and the speed build, and I discovered that if I was simply active enough (moving around and shooting enemies) slow-Nova would get the job done just as fast or faster than speed-Nova, especially since a slowing m-prime wave would cause enemies to cluster together better, making them easier to dispatch in large groups. Except the slow build wouldn't gimp my damage capabilities or potentially make the enemies stronger long-term.

So... what's the point? Speed-Nova now is annoying and frustrating to deal with when she's unwanted (which is about 95% of the time). She ruins games, toxifies the Nova player base, and devalues a great frame into a speed-running utility that actually isn't as great as people think it is.

What do I suggest?

D.E.'s original plan was to remove the bug where low enough power strength would invert Molecular Prime's slowing effect and cause enemies to be sped up -- it's supposed to bottom out at 0% slowing (in other words, at minimum power strength, m-prime would just provide the damage buff while enemies would still move at their normal speed)

That's all we need -- if enemies are still moving at normal speed, we don't lose anything by casting a minimum-strength m-prime, but we also don't get gimped in the process by suddenly having to deal with enemies shooting faster, canceling melee combos that normally would leave them stunlocked, or the team getting slash-procced to death.

I know there's a large number of players that still favor this build for Nova -- please consider the points I've made here... maybe you like the mechanic, but that doesn't make it useful or beneficial to the character. I know from plenty of experience -- it hurts more than it helps, and it turns Nova into a bad meme.

EDIT: For the Speedva advocates out there:

"" [ Comments about Speed Nova making waves go faster. ]

So, to do the actual math, I just played about a dozen 5-wave Hydron runs. 2-3 with Speedva in pubs, and 2-3 with Slova in pubs, then a couple each solo.

Pub games varied from ~3:30 - 4:30, but I'm pretty sure this had more to do with the other players. (the ones with good Volt/Embers went faster) Got 1 person killed once too with Speedva. (Oh and we also had G3 show up in one, Stalker in another. Didn't really affect the finish time.)

I finished all the solo ones in *identical* time: just under 4 mins. (approx. 3:55) Timer ran from the moment the first wave started (paused for stage transition "waves") to the moment everyone's health turned gray at the end of wave 5.

There was also no point in going longer than 5 waves as enemies only climb in level.

Both Novas ran *Identical weapon setups* and Enemy Sense. (The Speedva also has Rejuv for aura)

This experiment proves my earlier conclusion that Speedva *doesn't actually make waves go faster.* It all depends on how active you are as a player. ""

Edited February 28, 2018 by Ace4225

[Rawbeard]

4 minutes ago, Ace4225 said:

- Speed-Nova is now more troll than useful

I had to stop reading. speed nova can kill the entire map with her anti matter drop. how did you try every concievable build again?

[Ace4225]

5 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

speed nova can kill the entire map with her anti matter drop.

well, duh. It also works better with a slow build and doesn't get the team killed in the process.

 

5 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

how did you try every concievable build again?

Well, each of my 4 Novas has different polarity sets. (One is a Prime) I've tried 2-3 variations of:
- speed builds
- augment-related builds
- max duration builds
- melee builds
- max strength builds
- utility/mobility builds
- raid builds

... I'd mention stealth too, though that isn't too mod-specific in Nova's case.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Ace4225

[kuchn]

maining nova
using speed and slow
no idea where your problem lies..she's a beast, no matter how you build

[Seir]

I strongly disagree with speed nova being a troll. I find her insanely useful for speed clearing defense waves. This doesn't need a "fix". 

[Ace4225]

1 minute ago, kuchn said:

no idea where your problem lies..

Read the whole post.

Speed-Nova has become toxic, and I'm sick of dealing with teams dying and not being able to do anything about it.

[Ace4225]

Just now, Ace4225 said:

not being able to do anything about it.

well... technically I could bring a high-strength Equinox and run Provoke... but I'd rather not be forced to bring a certain frame just to cancel out another player's stupidity.

[kuchn]

1 minute ago, Ace4225 said:

Read the whole post.

Speed-Nova has become toxic, and I'm sick of dealing with teams dying and not being able to do anything about it.

i did
if your mates die, you kill too slowly or have the wrong team

[Drungly]

1 minute ago, Ace4225 said:

Speed-Nova has become toxic, and I'm sick of dealing with teams dying and not being able to do anything about it.

Isn't that the problem of the people dying? People shouldn't bring level 0 frames AND level 0 weapons to places like Hydron. Speed Nova is a blessing there. It seriously speeds up the waves.

[steelblueskies]

pointless focus on nova.

 

its a wider problem of player intent conflict.

 

public exists as the default post vors prize.

 

it cares not if it throws four of the same frame with non stacking buffs as their build focus.

it cares not if its four desecros with an mr0 weapon loadout hoping to leverage utility against noodle damage output.

it cares not if its four nukers then displeased at not being the ONE doing the thing above all.

 

from an external perspective the population that isn't on nova wants simple things.

her 1 does jack crap for them sot hey don't care if you built for it, if you did you are bad.

her 2 is a nuke and direct competition to other nukers, so if you built for it and its slower or stealing their action, you are bad.

her 3 is troll as hell in the hands of most, hell you can exit and land above the skybox with it in coba earth tile leaving everyone stuck ~100 meters above the combat area permanently. its hardwired to not apply to most desirable situations like escorts nowadays, and it generally is a clunky pos for getting hostiles into the concentration area on defenses while adding no damage, debuff, or similar to hostiles. even the augment requires trusting the nova to not be a derp or a troll for piddling movespeed. 

which leaves the four.

its a damage multiplier even in speedva. which is NOT in fact a bad thing in hydron, unless of course like so many others, you have randoms and noobtard leeches running at a wall with their toe on a key while they netflix and nosepick.

 

meanwhile slowva is still exactly as troll af when not making things take all week is desired. remove public or actually force the work to improve it. removing options to ensure noone has to fire two consecutive braincells ever.. just no. even the cesspit of design that is games like league require just a hairs breadth more consideration of what to bring and where while providing *some* options for variation beyond the normative. 

 

so you are ultimately barking up something. mostly bad ideas that remove options in favor of pushing the braindead afk farm pit over, you know, the fact that the rest of the game exists?

[Ace4225]

Just now, kuchn said:

i did
if your mates die, you kill too slowly or have the wrong team

My mates don't usually.. though they pretty much all agree that Speed-Nova is more annoying than useful. I'm talking about public matches where everybody brings whatever they want. People die... a lot. Because Speed-Nova makes enemies kill faster.

[Seir]

1 minute ago, Ace4225 said:

well... technically I could bring a high-strength Equinox and run Provoke... but I'd rather not be forced to bring a certain frame just to cancel out another player's stupidity.

So let me get this straight, you claim the build is toxic, yet you call everybody that uses the build stupid. I find that funny and hypocritical, the build has incredible uses, and because somebody uses it to speed up the already incredibly bad and monotone grind this game has, they are called stupid, they are toxic, and ruining games. Honestly?

[Ace4225]

Just now, --Q--Nyu said:

So let me get this straight, you claim the build is toxic, yet you call everybody that uses the build stupid.

Everyone who uses it against Grineer is, in fact, stupid.

That's what gets people killed. And then they act like everyone's just a noob when in any other situation, they'd be fine.

[Fihuren]

Not a main nova but I use both (slow and speed), both are good enough, and if people dies in hydron, this is their fault, not the speed nova (i used to level warframes on hydron, it's way simpler with a speed nova tho). The only problem I've got with speed nova are trolls (or people that forgot to switch build (that happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)) that jumps in a excavation.

[Ace4225]

3 minutes ago, --Q--Nyu said:

incredibly bad and monotone grind

Seriously? It takes less than 2 hours to farm 90% of the characters. There are plenty of grindier games out there to try if you think this one is bad.

[Seir]

Just now, Ace4225 said:

Everyone who uses it against Grineer is, in fact, stupid.

That's what gets people killed. And then they act like everyone's just a noob when in any other situation, they'd be fine.

>Against grineer

So using it against void, infested and corpus is okay? You should play something other than hydron buddy. Broaden your horizons. 

 

A tool that has great uses should not be destroyed because people are bad at staying alive. It is the player's responsibility to adapt and overcome. If they are bringing everything level 0 then it is their fault if they die. What does a smart person do? They always bring a strong weapon or level 30 frame to survive, buff, or heal. We should not be punished for the mistakes of others. This is what you are suggesting and it is sickening. It is this misguided thinking that gets stuff that is NOT overpowered nerfed to oblivion. 

[Kuestenjung]

You know what a Troll Nova is for me? A max duration Nova slowing enemies at the spawn in defense.

[Seir]

Just now, Ace4225 said:

Seriously? It takes less than 2 hours to farm 90% of the characters. There are plenty of grindier games out there to try if you think this one is bad.

2 hours? Okay, create a new account, record a video of you doing 90% of the characters in 2 hours. I will wait. 

 

[Ace4225]

1 minute ago, --Q--Nyu said:

>Against grineer

So using it against void, infested and corpus is okay? You should play something other than hydron buddy. Broaden your horizons. 

gawd. Use some intuition, man. All I'm gonna say.

 

1 minute ago, --Q--Nyu said:

A tool that has great uses should not be destroyed because people are bad at staying alive.

Great uses... like speeding up a defense by 5%?

#wow #sogreat
and no matter how good or bad you are at staying alive, making the enemy shoot twice as fast doesn't make things easier.
 

[Ace4225]

2 minutes ago, --Q--Nyu said:

2 hours? Okay, create a new account, record a video of you doing 90% of the characters in 2 hours. I will wait. 

 

I meant less than 2 hours per character. Again, use some common sense.

[RayxAyanami]

Why do I feel like people will always have a problem no matter what DE does. 

Maybe we should just make warframe a Mobile game with lootboxes.

[Seir]

Just now, Ace4225 said:

gawd. Use some intuition, man. All I'm gonna say.

 

Great uses... like speeding up a defense by 5%?

#wow #sogreat
and no matter how good or bad you are at staying alive, making the enemy shoot twice as fast doesn't make things easier.
 

By 5%? Haha dude I am strongly convinced you are nothing but a troll. You are bad at calculating the time saved by using a speed nova over a slow nova. 

[Seir]

1 minute ago, Ace4225 said:

I meant less than 2 hours per character. Again, use some common sense.

Oh so now it is 2 hours per character? All I see is you failing to stand by what you said. You NEVER specified what you meant, this is more your fault than mine. Stop trolling. 

[Kuestenjung]

Gerade eben schrieb Ace4225:

I get the feeling I've struck a nerve, and you feel the need to argue with me because you're butthurt.

#triggered

And I feel you are the troll here. All you can is critizise and call others stupid.

[Seir]

Just now, Ace4225 said:

or perhaps you simply haven't seen an actually good slow Nova in action.

I promise you I know how to use nova more than you. The issue here is that you are a troll. A slowva is horrendous for defense.