An old mechanic (well, bug) that's outlived its usefulness and is killing my favorite frame (Nova)

[Ace4225]

3 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Speedva was never a babysitter's build.

Exactly why it shouldn't be used in pubs.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ace4225 said:

So basically every Public matchmake ever.

Why can't we start talking about what makes us all happy?

If m-prime simply didn't speed up OR slow enemies down, wouldn't it be fine?

I play purely on pubs for Hydron...

Explain the difference in experience?

Neutral Speed Nova is ... ok. However Slowva makes Excavation easier and Speedva moves defense along. Removing the speed mult just makes her less utility and a straight buffer.

[Ace4225]

Just now, Datam4ss said:

Neutral Speed Nova is ... ok. However Slowva makes Excavation easier and Speedva moves defense along. Removing the speed mult just makes her less utility and a straight buffer.

OP suggestion was to make m-Prime minimum cap at 0% effect with negative strength instead of inverting to speed. Sounds like we agree that would be acceptable.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ace4225 said:

OP suggestion was to make m-Prime minimum cap at 0% effect with negative strength instead of inverting to speed. Sounds like we agree that would be acceptable.

I don't agree on removing her speed buff. It bunches enemies up around the Cryopod in defense allowing less AMDs used.

[Ace4225]

Just now, Datam4ss said:

It bunches enemies up around the Cryopod in defense

I would argue Slova does this just fine if not better. Every time I see a speed-prime, enemies spread out more.

[Ace4225]

1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

bunches enemies up around the Cryopod in defense

This is also the last thing you'd want a speedva causing in defense as it's how the cryopod dies if you don't happen to have a Frost or Limbo or other frame to protect the pod.

[Ace4225]

I also would like to mention now I recently ran into a Speedva during an Index run that was literally just trolling. That was great.

[Ace4225]

3 minutes ago, Ace4225 said:

I also would like to mention now I recently ran into a Speedva during an Index run that was literally just trolling. That was great.

and this sort of thing is why it's problematic for gameplay.

You don't know when or where you're going to run into it. Odds are you won't be prepared for it. If you are, cool. Good on ya. But if you're not, it makes the game way less fun. And "If you don't like it, leave" is anything but a productive attitude for the community.

If Speed-prime had never been an option (as was originally planned) then we wouldn't be here having this argument, because there wouldn't be an alternative to Slowva and no one would find Slowva "boring."

D.E. has been good about reducing trolling in WF. Limbo got his just desserts (you can roll to get out of an unwanted rifting) Vauban sort-of can't troll-bounce any more (because Operators simply ignore his pads) and Loki can't switch-teleport people off of extraction.

Nothing has been done about speed-nova, and yes: It's troll when it's unwanted. It's a stupid troll move that can't be avoided.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Ace4225

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I don't think this is a problem with Speed Nova.

This is more of a problem of being inconsiderate.

While it is true Hydron is the current farming meta, there is no official designated levelling or farming spot by DE.

In other words, this "issue" will and can happen anywhere and in any mission, but the problem isn't Nova speeding up the mobs.

The problem is each member in the team lacking consideration for other players.

In the first place, bringing an unranked or underlevelled weapon immediately signifies that in terms of killing, the player is going to leech.

However, this doesn't have to be a problem if the player brings a decent frame that can at least CC enemies or buff/heal teammates to make things easier for his/her teammates.

Likewise, bringing an unranked or underlevelled frames immediately signifies that in terms of healing, CC or AOE damage, the player is going to leech.

However, this doesn't have to be a problem if the player brings a decent weapon that can at least kill the low armored enemies.

The problem occurs when the entire team is composed of people with the mindset that they can bring both an underleveled or unranked frame AND weapons, because they can leech the other teammates.

Considering affinity works in such a way:

Kill with ability: 100% exp goes to frame

Kill with weapon: 50% exp goes to frame, 50% goes to the single weapon used to kill

Leech from teammates in affinity radius: 25% exp goes to frame, 75% exp splits equally among number of weapons carried

It is much more considerate for people to bring a decent frame that do CC or heal (anything but damage like Trinity or Loki) and level their weapons via the last 2 methods.

OR

Bring 1 decent weapon (atterax, sonicor, zaws, etc) with 2 other unranked ones and an unranked frame if they just want to level the frame and level via all 3 methods.

Changing speed nova won't solve the issue. It will just be a bandaid.

Edited February 28, 2018 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Sabreracer]

While I don't "main" any Frame, Nova was the frame I wanted most when I started over four years ago and the one I use if I'm not prepping for a particular "job".

SpeedVa was an un-intended byproduct of her rework but was so popular that she stayed.  You not liking that aspect doesn't mean she should be changed back, DE listen to feedback and 99% of the feedback in this thread is "leave her as she is".

I've played plenty of Hydron pugs and people die there, whether SpeedVa is there or not.  Frames with strong CC reduce that risk and MP slow mode is strong CC, no-one disputes that.  

However take SlowVa into Hydron and you will, most of the time, get crap for it.  Players want Speed for Xp gains, you may think that the wave ends just as fast most disagree.

Personally I prefer SlowVa and my SpeedVa build is not a full speed one to reduce the risk of failure.  However that is MY CHOICE we have the tools to have it fast make it slow and that is a good thing.  Is a SpeedVa trolling?  Sometimes maybe but that is always a possibility with many frames.

 

TL:DR You don't like it, most do live with it 

Giving a choice will in no way doom Nova to oblivion 

 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Ace4225 said:

This is also the last thing you'd want a speedva causing in defense as it's how the cryopod dies if you don't happen to have a Frost or Limbo or other frame to protect the pod.

The Cryopod is hardly made of paper and much tankier than a frame. It's a risk, but a calculated one.

On missions like Sechura and Hydron, mobs barely dent it. Let it take a bit of damage and then just destroy the whole wave around it. It'll survive the usual 10 - 20 waves of punishment.

No one takes Speedva to endurance run anyway.

[Ace4225]

15 minutes ago, Sabreracer said:

SpeedVa was an un-intended byproduct of her rework but was so popular that she stayed.  You not liking that aspect doesn't mean she should be changed back, DE listen to feedback and 99% of the feedback in this thread is "leave her as she is".

 

I was fine with it back then too. But that was before DE started making enemies that actually hurt. (Nullifiers, Noxes, Charger spit-balls, Mutilist Ospreys, etc)

I don't want it changed because I personally don't like it. I want it changed now because it doesn't benefit the gameplay any more (not that it was super-advantageous then)

ALL it's ever been good for is speeding up the first few waves of some endless missions. That's really not a game-changer. Back then it was lolzy, but it didn't cause any problems. Now it does.

I really can't believe you all think it comes down to people bringing unleveled gear. Unleveled gear or not, Speedva gets people killed because she SPEEDS UP THE DANG ENEMIES. It's so darn obvious and I know for a fact there are many out there who feel the way I do that Speedva hurts a LOT more than she helps. (perhaps they're staying quiet because they're more afraid of getting flak than I am)

Edited February 28, 2018 by Ace4225

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

2 hours ago, Ace4225 said:

Read the whole post.

Speed-Nova has become toxic, and I'm sick of dealing with teams dying and not being able to do anything about it.

LOL, please. That's a you problem. Not everyone is like you, or your teammates.

[Ace4225]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

LOL, please. That's a you problem. Not everyone is like you, or your teammates.

This is exactly the attitude I get from Speedva players if I speak up when they start getting teammates killed. Problem is the correlation is definitely with Speedva.

Speedva not present = teammates are fine.
Speedva present and casting 4 = teammates get killed.

You ever think that maybe.. I don't know.. SPEEDING UP ENEMIES has anything to do with enemies suddenly getting better at killing your team? 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Ace4225

[Xiquara]

speedva is present and teammates get killed... why exactly is everybody undergeared and no defence frame in a higher level defence mission?

just bring a frost with icy avalance, problem solved, nobody dieing, everone at 0% damage get.

if you are not prepared to defend something in a defence its not speedva's fault.

guess what also makes enemies twice as dangerous, 5 to 10 more waves.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Xiquara

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

25 minutes ago, Ace4225 said:

This is exactly the attitude I get from Speedva players if I speak up when they start getting teammates killed. Problem is the correlation is definitely with Speedva.

Speedva not present = teammates are fine.
Speedva present and casting 4 = teammates get killed.

You ever think that maybe.. I don't know.. SPEEDING UP ENEMIES has anything to do with enemies suddenly getting better at killing your team? 

You, as a Warframe can still move faster than sped up enemies, especially on Hydron, where the enemies aren't... you know... interested in attacking you.

[NukeTheCore]

I agree and disagree...

If you dont like it because..

hace 4 horas, Ace4225 dijo:

Speed-Nova is now more troll than useful

Hum... this is not a real solid argument... because with that criteria you should make Limbo disappear.

If you remove Speed Nova, some combos won't be the same, like with Chaos, Radial Disarm+Irradiating Disarm, Hallowed Ground.. etc...

The Speed Nova is even better when she is low lvl.. the speed can increase to 75%...
I would agree to change the mechanics for an Augment that reverse the speed.. that would be nice. This would improve the Nova a lot...

[Caelward]

1 hour ago, Ace4225 said:

This is exactly the attitude I get from Speedva players if I speak up when they start getting teammates killed. Problem is the correlation is definitely with Speedva.

Speedva not present = teammates are fine.
Speedva present and casting 4 = teammates get killed.

You ever think that maybe.. I don't know.. SPEEDING UP ENEMIES has anything to do with enemies suddenly getting better at killing your team? 

Man, I love playing with speed novas around. They speed up the inherent grind of the game so much.

It's very much a risk/reward thing. It seems that unlike you, I'm perfectly fine with dealing with that increased risk.

 

Bad news: My opinion that 'Speed Nova is fine' is just as valid as your opinion that 'Speed Nova is terrible'.

 

It's not going to change with only you shouting at people from your porch to get off your lawn.

[DrBorris]

By the logic of the OP Limbo should just be removed from the game because he can be used to troll.

Hell, frost should be removed because he can troll with his bubble. Mag can also troll with Magnetize, let's remove her as well. And Atlas, oh god Atlas, his petrify makes it so enemies can't be inflicted with status making some people's weapons neigh-useless. Atlas on a armor enhancement sortie is cancer that must be removed from the game.

(I know, that was a lot of strawman, but if the OP can be a dingo why can't I?)

 

People are going to be trolls, why let the trolls ruin a legitimate strategy for everyone else?

[Rawbeard]

5 hours ago, Ace4225 said:

well, duh. It also works better with a slow build and doesn't get the team killed in the process.

I guess the difference between doing half a million and three quarter million damage is really relevant. and having them come into range faster is usually a bad thing also.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

In the first place, bringing an unranked or underlevelled weapon immediately signifies that in terms of killing, the player is going to leech.

Likewise, bringing an unranked or underlevelled frames immediately signifies that in terms of healing, CC or AOE damage, the player is going to leech.

You raise an interesting point, because as you say it's only by not participating that the player is considered 'leeching'.

I bring under-levelled weapons to these things all the time, but that is, admittedly, only because I'm MR25 and have 50 mod points allowed for on the build already, plus any forma. Meaning that my builds for weapons are nearly complete as they are, and so can contribute to damage, kills and so on.

Likewise with frames, even though the desire is to take an unranked frame and level it by the fastest means possible, there are very few frames around that can't contribute at least a little something with a decent weapon and their first two abilities. In point of fact, levelling the frame is quicker overall if you don't just wait for that affinity, but if you at least cast at enemies and shoot them when you can't cast, because the casting grants affinity and the kills dump 50% Affinity into your frame while other players' kills only put in 25%.

It's level of participation, that's the definition of a leecher.

Consideration comes in many forms, that's all I'm saying ^^

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

The problem isn’t the frames it’s the players, if they’re dying because the enemies got slightly more difficult it’s on them, then that’s their problem NOT the speedvas.

[Ace4225]

2 hours ago, NukeTheCore said:

This is not a real solid argument... because with that criteria you should make Limbo disappear.

Exactly how is "Speedva is hurting players by making enemies faster" not a solid argument?

The evidence is plain for all to see... Even the ones here defending Speedva admit it's a hard mode.. they're just willing to to put up with it while I have endured too many matches where Speedva screwed everybody to put up with it any more.

 

Ehh.. Limbo could probably do with a rework as well at some point.. but at least you can roll out of an unwanted rift. There's nothing you can do short of bringing a Provoke Equinox to avoid an unwanted speed-prime.

[Ace4225]

2 hours ago, Caelward said:

It's not going to change with only you shouting at people from your porch to get off your lawn.

I've been presenting well-constructed arguments using both examples of consistent negative experiences in gameplay and how the mechanic itself is the culprit.

 

The opinion here is that *You* like it (and a few other guys; notice it's been like the same 5 ppl responding mostly, not 99% of the player base?)

 

Everyone here who likes it has also freely admitted to being a Speedva player. They also shamelessly declare that when their teammates get killed it can't possibly be because they're using an ability that's partially buffing enemies; it HAS to be because 90% of everybody else is just noobs that can't stay alive.

 

In any other situation we would all admit that success in most of Warframe's gameplay usually comes down to proper gear more than it does actual skill (only 1-2 frames are currently capable of soloing Eidolons because they have skills suited to keeping themselves alive) EXCEPT for Speedva... which despite actually buffing enemies is totally fine and should be left alone. All those guys dying because of it are just noobs. Every single one.

 

How dare anyone suggest DE take away my ability to save a few seconds of time on occasions to change something that is actually getting a lot of ppl killed and spoiling their fun?

Edited February 28, 2018 by Ace4225

[Sabreracer]

19 minutes ago, Ace4225 said:

Exactly how is "Speedva is hurting players by making enemies faster" not a solid argument?

 

It's a very subjective argument not a solid one. 

In the right circumstances it's a very effective method

In the wrong circumstances it's a hard method to deal with.

between the two it only requires management by one or two players to still be effective rather than game over.

Hydron is a defence mission with level 30-40 enemies, arriving unprepared to deal with those enemies has consequences. 

If it's a public match be prepared to carry is my motto. 

The results of having a SpeedVa in the match are a small part of the equation and does not warrant removing functionality from a frame. 

Edit: 

To repeat for the record I am not a personal fan of overly fast enemies but that does not make me think it needs to be removed.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Sabreracer